IG discussion thread II - based on 3/13/09 rumors

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**foil7102**

Hellhound before = 24inch range, 6 inch move, 30 inch threat radius. It was oh so simple to keep the 19 inches away from the enemy, spitting fire the whole time, blocking enemy heavy bolters. They usually lasted till turn 4-5 when they were then penned in against a board edge or surrounded and they died to a fist or a melta gun, or heck double tapping necrons for that matter.

Hellhounds after = move 12, range 12, 24 inch threat range. However they will move, fire once, get fisted or meltaed and then die.

**CommissarKhaine**

Agamemnon2 wrote:
CommissarKhaine wrote:1) I'm hoping ogryns will have some interesting options, but we'll just have to see. I only skimmed warseer, but it looked like only the basic ogryn couldn't get upgrades; a bonehead with a power fist would seem fun in a unit... I admit things aren't looking to rosy for them, but I still think we should see the book AND play a few games before we start panicking. I sincerely hope your 15 big guys will still be playable - I only converted 5 of'em.

Reds8n was very explicit that Ogryns are exactly as crap as they appear to be. No options, no Orders, no nothing. Minimum squad is 115 for a Bonehead and two Ogryns, additional bodies 40 points each. They even break the trend by making those additional models more, not less expensive than the initial points investment.

I'm sorry to hear that; guess GW may have fethed them up anyway... Still, I prefer to be a misinformed pessimist so I'll reserve my final judgement for when I'm holding the book.

**Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar**

Agamemnon2 wrote:Reds8n was very explicit that Ogryns are exactly as crap as they appear to be. No options, no Orders, no nothing. Minimum squad is 115 for a Bonehead and two Ogryns, additional bodies 40 points each. They even break the trend by making those additional models more, not less expensive than the initial points investment.

After some back and forth on Warseer, here's his latest on that:

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:Although that doesn't really count because he raised his eyebrows, so something must be awry.

He also said that Ogryns cost 40 points. Perhaps those are just the extra guys though.

reds8n wrote:My understanding was bonehead and 3 for 115, extra guys at 40 points a pop. The eyebrows thing was as i started to type I suddenly was unsure as to whether this was 3 total or 3 including, think of it as a raised 'brow in a Spock like fashion.

For legal reasons I'd like to point out that I mate more than him though. I do have a deathgrip though.

Stubborn, furious charge and "bulky"-- take up 2 transport spaces.

Nork-- the bodyguard ogryn has FNP, I wonder if that is where some of the ogryn confusion has come from.

I'll try and check and make 100% certain tomorrow.

**ShumaGorath**

Rated G wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:Ogryn excell against low volume high damage attacks and get torn down by high volume low damage attacks (banshees vs orks for example). They fill an entirely different roll than grey knights.

We have guardsmen to soak up those low volume, high damage attacks, for much less. We don't need an overly expensive unit (ie Ogryns) to do what the basic grunt already does. What we need is something to take those high volume, low damage attacks like a champ and come back swinging. Hence, GKT.

What the army needs and what the unit excels at are two different things, They would be pretty reasonable against daemon princes and avatars as well. The problem is the guard army wants a cureall for its weakness to high volume close combat, and thats something it will never have since its not in the spirit of the army to have it. I bet the tau would love it too, but they aren't ever going to get it. Ogryn are a cure to a problem that the guard don't have. They are a somewhat heavy damage output squad that can counterassault like champs after the rest of the line pours some fire on to their target. They are there to mop things up or hold down far off objectives.

**Agamemnon2**

Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar wrote:
After some back and forth on Warseer, here's his latest on that:

reds8n wrote:My understanding was bonehead and 3 for 115, extra guys at 40 points a pop.

Stubborn, furious charge and "bulky"-- take up 2 transport spaces.

Nork-- the bodyguard ogryn has FNP, I wonder if that is where some of the ogryn confusion has come from.

I'll try and check and make 100% certain tomorrow.

That'd be completely counterintuitive. Why would Ogryns cost ca. 28 points in the initial investment, and then almost 40% more for additional men? And that's assuming that Boneheads are free. I hope he's wrong about the 40, but I don't believe he is.

**Dave47**

Kungfuhustler wrote:Well I for one will actually START using hellhounds because of these new rules. that frakking template never hit, ever, and it was the biggest joke in my army if I ever played with it.

Hellhounds are one of the best tanks in the current IG Codex.

I suspect you may be making one "to hit" roll, and then discarding the template if you miss. Double check the rules: You should be hitting any given model 75% of the time. Against incoming hordes, you should almost always kill most of the models under the template.

Having to get close to the enemy means that they'll be close to you; they can potentially use you to get an extra charge move they couldn't otherwise get, thus hitting your lines quicker. And a single surviving melta gun will end your day. It's hard not to look at the new Hellhound as being nerfed slightly. Which honestly may be reasonable, given how good the current one is.

**H.B.M.C.**

ShumaGorath wrote:Then he probably shouldn't tell people that he does it.

I haven't the faintest fething idea what you're blathering about now Shummy. This thread is for discussing Guard. Get the hell out of the thread if all you want to do is discuss me you over-obsessive needlessly contrary freak.

**CommissarKhaine**

Dave47 wrote:
Kungfuhustler wrote:Well I for one will actually START using hellhounds because of these new rules. that frakking template never hit, ever, and it was the biggest joke in my army if I ever played with it.

Hellhounds are one of the best tanks in the current IG Codex.

I suspect you may be making one "to hit" roll, and then discarding the template if you miss. Double check the rules: You should be hitting any given model 75% of the time. Against incoming hordes, you should almost always kill most of the models under the template.

Having to get close to the enemy means that they'll be close to you; they can potentially use you to get an extra charge move they couldn't otherwise get, thus hitting your lines quicker. And a single surviving melta gun will end your day. It's hard not to look at the new Hellhound as being nerfed slightly. Which honestly may be reasonable, given how good the current one is.

Quite true. Same withe melta-vets: we knew they were going down since it's not what GW intended and was too good for its points. Besides, there's a reason every competitve guard army took drop troops and vets as the first two doctrines...

**ShumaGorath**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:Then he probably shouldn't tell people that he does it.

I haven't the faintest fething idea what you're blathering about now Shummy. This thread is for discussing Guard. Get the hell out of the thread if all you want to do is discuss me you over-obsessive needlessly contrary freak.

Your not going to report me are you?! Even in the post that started all that I posted something referential to the new rules. And I've been discussing the role of ogryns at the same time as my spat with fraz and your trollish self. Besides its not obsession when you clearly put that signature there for me. Its nice to see that I'm so important to you.

I also have no doubt that you don't know what I'm talking about. I doubt you even realize how hypocritical you are most of the time.

**Shep**

foil7102 wrote:Hellhound before = 24inch range, 6 inch move, 30 inch threat radius. It was oh so simple to keep the 19 inches away from the enemy, spitting fire the whole time, blocking enemy heavy bolters. They usually lasted till turn 4-5 when they were then penned in against a board edge or surrounded and they died to a fist or a melta gun, or heck double tapping necrons for that matter.

Hellhounds after = move 12, range 12, 24 inch threat range. However they will move, fire once, get fisted or meltaed and then die.

I don't think i'll take them, but here are some new strategies that their faster speed can make use of...

Turn one rather than go for the shot, move 18" to some terrain that gives you a cover save. If lined up correctly a single chimera can give a 3 hellhound unit a 4+ cover, you could even spring for the 3+ cover save if you wanted. Next turn move 12" fire your flamers.

Turn one line them up out of los behind 3x leman russes. move up a bit, or not. Your opponent will need to close with you, because you are raining ordnance down on him every turn. When he gets closer to you, reveal your Hounds and unload souffle.

Hold them in reserve, they'll be off table while your opponent is drawn in against your artillery and tanks, on the turn they show up, you can now move 12" off of the table edge, making it easier to get the right LOS angle, burning all of his assault units up. once that mission is accomplished, you can now speed them off to your opponents home objective 18" a turn, heading for a late game block that he can't counter because his meltas and fists are out of position.

They've traded range safety for a higher max speed, which considering their slot and their competition with the griffon and the cover ignoring russ tank, gives them a uniqueness that is appreciated by me. (although maybe not enough to take them

)

**Ozymandias**

Polonius wrote:
When did anybody here actually call anybody a fanboi, a sycophant, or an ass kisser? If I missed them, point it out, but I think your seeing them when they don't really exist, or were used only after we get yet another lecture on not being negative.

Ok, since you asked nicely, here's before my "lecture":

H.B.M.C. wrote:
I mean when myself, Aggy, DD and Shummy all come down on (roughly) the same side in a discussion, shouldn't that tell you something? All we need now is MIA GW sycophant Toreador to come in here claiming the end is nigh and we'll have a general Dakka consensus on the issue.

And after:

H.B.M.C. wrote:and it seems that those of us who don't instantly lap up whatever GW has to offer are branded as nerdraging whiners whereas those who choose to simply ignore the bad things and pretend they don't exist (like you Ozzy) are normal, and not fanboyish in the slightest.

emphasis mine.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:Neither I nor DBM ever said ignore the bad things, stop with the fallacious arguments please. After God knows how many pages of you and a few others whining about the negatives I'd had enough. I know you think there are some positives in this codex, but the way you jump to the negatives so quickly and so vehemently and then call everyone who doesn't share your view a sycophant ass-kisser (including Toreador who hasn't been here for months) was really, really off putting. I know you have strong feelings for this codex but god-damn dude, chill a little bit, you haven't even seen the codex yet or played ANY games with it.

Selective reading must be fun for you Ozy. Let me quote myself:

me wrote:I said only a page or so ago that I'm looking forward to the Codex.

me again wrote:I dunno about you guys, but even with ultra-redundant and unnecessary tanks and 16 Point Epic Fail Troopers, I'm still looking forward to this Codex.

me once again wrote:... and as I've said right from the start, like the recent Marine 'Dex, I'm really looking forward to this Codex.

How many times do I have to say it.

BYE

Well those quotes were all from ONE post that you made AFTER my initial comment so... you really want me to finish or do you get it now? And I think it's hilarious that you mention selective reading on my part when you ignore this from MY POST THAT YOU QUOTED:

I know you think there are some positives in this codex

**Frazzled**

We had a spat? I wish someone would tell me these things-I am the last to know...

ok ok Modquisition on:
Gentlemen, its time to remember Dakka Rule #1. Politeness is required. Further inflammatory posts after this notice will result in a review for disciplinary action.
Argue the merits and refrain from personal attacks.

Thank you,

Modquisition off:

**George Spiggott**

So they pay another 10-15 points each for the additional point of Toughness and an Attack/Shot. -1 Strength unless they charge where they also gain +1 Initiative. Oh and stubborn means morale checks are always against Ld 6 or better.

6 points cheaper than Grey Knight Terminators?

**Ozymandias**

Shep wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Shep wrote:Of all of the people that are absolutely convinced that the new IG book is garbage, how many are avid tourney players?

Oh good one Shep. Let's denigrate tournement players as a way of discounting the criticism levelled at the Guard Codex. I mean, if it's only those dirty tournament players who don't like it, then us virtuous paragons of the GW hobby - casual gamers - can go on and keep having fun while the tournament players huddle in their corners complaining about points cost.

There's one thing at Dakka that's worse that people like me complaining all the time, and that's the morally superior self-righteous 'casual gamer mafia'. Don't fall into that trap Shep.

i totally agree with you. I was actually going the other way with that line of questioning. I definitely wouldn't call myself a casual only player. I attend one or 2 GTs a year and as many RTTs as i can get to. I play lots of apoc and play with lots of my casual friends, but I'd place myself in the tourney crowd.

I'm just curious if tourney players like myself are more inclined to like the changes or less. it seems like they are happier, because they are just looking for one, maybe two builds that can win games.

And I'm happy to say that all of the criticism that you've personally leveled at the rumors seems pretty reasonable. I don't agree with all of it, and some of it I might not believe things are quite as extensively fubarred as you do, but your thought processes have been logical and level headed. Some people are taking the role of reactionary, and those are the ones that concern me more.

I'll speak frankly about my opinions of the codex. I'm not really fanboy or nerdrage, I'm falling right in the middle, a lot like you.

ELITES They might not have made anything in the elites slot any better. Thats unfortunate, it is one of my favorite slots (generally speaking) in 40k. I would have liked to do something substantial with ogryns. i won't declare whether or not they are utterly useless, but it is plainly obvious that at their cost, you wont be seeing 20-30 of them on a table. Stormtroopers honestly seem a bit points inefficient to me as well. I won't call 'time of death' on them yet until I've played 2-3 games with a list built around them, thats just how i roll. If 10 with deep strike and meltaguns was 130, and is now 180 or 190, then its pushing a 40-50% increase in cost. Their new and better table deployment and their better ap won't yield that value I think. Strength 3 is strength 3. I look forward to playing with them however, and their cool valkyries. i don't think they are horrendously unplayable, saying that is ridiculous.

HQ This got better, some of those hq specific orders sound great. both the twin-linked and the re-roll succseful cover save orders are really good. The advisors have value, And I'm open minded about the primaris. CC equipped ICs don't interest me, but I don't imagine they would have no matter what Robin did, just not the right army for that.

TROOPS Now troops got really cool. Veterans moved to troops, with tons of mini doctrines, we get a funny and fun unit in penal legionarres, and the platoon structure got a massive buff. it gained some protectoin from KP bleed and picked up special weapon and heavy weapon squads from the hq and heavy slots, made em scoring, cheaper, and able to receive some interesting special orders. Some may lament the loss of drop troops, but I wouldn't have pity on anyone but someone who purchased elysian drop troops. Even then, it is just as easy to imagine that they parachuted in just seconds before the game started, and the valks you did buy could be carrying the second wave.

FAST ATTACK This slot got way faster, and better to boot. Armor 12 sentinels, i love that! Valkyries i just have no idea, I'm just going to get some PT with them and formulate an opinion, nothing looks totally out of whack for or against them. hellhounds picking up fast and the ability to squadron is close enough to 15 points value for me to sleep at night. Definitely still fieldable, i think they are hurt more by their competition in the wide open heavy slot than by the 13% points increase.

HEAVY SUPPORT This is whats got me excited. 2x3 russes will probably work, it might not. Thats ok, 3x2 might work, or 1x3 and a manticore and a single 5x plasma cannon executioner, maybe 3-6 bassies will be a terror or a long range wave of 3 bassies, a mid range wave of 3x griffons all with nets, and a single demolisher to go hunting/blocking. this slot has been so radically altered, opens up so many CHOICES (you don't have to squadron if you don't want to) and lumbering behemoth opens up the lascannon, makes the single HB better and makes the 3x HB better, in fact it makes each and every sponson rig worth taking, and still retains the in-game choice of whether or not to move.

So there you have it. No fanboy gushing, no nerdrage aneurism, just a little bit of disappointment coupled with a lot of excitement and optimism.

QFT and for actual analysis.

**Wildeyedjester**

Wow. I came to dakka to see what rumors held and found this series of slandering and over emotional posts. I am saddened to see that such name calling and pointless bickering goes unchallenged and unadressed by moderators here. I would have thought that a thread labeled IG discussion in one of the more well known forums would have been just that and contain an actual discussion. I would have also hoped not to find only a series of hatred, flamings, rants about GW in general, and signature quotes that call people idiots.

Now granted, as I read through - I did find several posts that talked both about merit and possible flaws with the rumors. Those were nice - but sifting through 10+ pages (in this 2nd thread only) of hostility is too much. I will return over to 'the dudes' clean thread where things are orderly and nicely maintained.

I am sure there will be posts such as 'Move on - we don't need you here', but that will only be supporting what I am trying to point out, and is the kind of response that will inhibit future growth of your forum.

For what it is worth, I think the new codex is exciting and will be fun to play. Many things have been addressed that were severe problems before. Are they fixes? I don't know and we won't know until we play them out.

Trying to rduce kill points is key. Giving us more options with tanks and armor is awesome. Giving us even more troop options and how we field them is awesomer still. Are Ogryns and ST overpriced? Maybe so - but there is still plenty of viable options if you don't like them. If you don't like the price cost on LRT you can still take it w/ only a battlecannon and a bolter in the hull. Move around as it was before the codex, and for the extra 5 points you have the added 3 str 5 shots w/ your battle cannon. If you don't mind a sitting pill box, pay the 20 points and add an extra 6 shots.

**H.B.M.C.**

Shep wrote:So there you have it. No fanboy gushing, no nerdrage aneurism, just a little bit of disappointment coupled with a lot of excitement and optimism.

Thanks for posting that Shep. A well thought out and perfectly reasoned post, and I agree with most of it.

As far as the Storm Trooper issue goes (and this applies to Ogryn and Commissars as well), my ire stems from the fact that these units haven't been worth taking for over a decade now and given the chance to make them better GW have once again dropped the ball. It's not a 'nerdrage' moment for me, it's just disheartening that they truly think that something like AP3 makes a Storm Trooper worth the same cost as the Marine he'll kill 22% of the time (I think that's the chance a single BS4 Hellgun shot has to kill a Marine). For Ogryn, as Aggy has pointed out, GKTs end up being a cheaper and more effective choice (which, to me, is just ludicrous), and then for Commissars, easily my fav Guard unit of all time (hence my alter ego, Commissar Calgar - who's currently on a fishin trip), they're still overpriced and, if what Aggy said about power fists is true, they're going to have arbitrary restrictions placed upon them that not only make no sense, but invalidate existing models. Not that invalidating models is 'new' for GW, but I really thought we were passed wholesale removal of options that kill of entire units or choices (maybe I was optimistic thinking that the lessons of 'Generic Daemons' had been learnt).

But going back to the Storm Troopers, I've always said, right from the beginning, that I don't field Stormies in my Guard army. I have six full squads of Kasrkin and they have always, always been used as Inquisitorial Storm Troopers. And until GW comes along and removes all the Inquisitorial stuff from the DH and WH Codices, turning them into Codex: GKs and Codex: SoB, I will continue to use them as ISTs rather than regular Stormies and I will finally be able to complete my dream of having a fully airborne IST force thanks to the new Valk.

That's what I really want.

**Polonius**

Ozymandias wrote:
Polonius wrote:
When did anybody here actually call anybody a fanboi, a sycophant, or an ass kisser? If I missed them, point it out, but I think your seeing them when they don't really exist, or were used only after we get yet another lecture on not being negative.

Ok, since you asked nicely, here's before my "lecture":

H.B.M.C. wrote:
I mean when myself, Aggy, DD and Shummy all come down on (roughly) the same side in a discussion, shouldn't that tell you something? All we need now is MIA GW sycophant Toreador to come in here claiming the end is nigh and we'll have a general Dakka consensus on the issue.

And after:

H.B.M.C. wrote:and it seems that those of us who don't instantly lap up whatever GW has to offer are branded as nerdraging whiners whereas those who choose to simply ignore the bad things and pretend they don't exist (like you Ozzy) are normal, and not fanboyish in the slightest.

emphasis mine.

Umm, not to sound really clueless, but isn't Toreador a pretty shameless fanboi? I"m pretty sure his track record is pretty clear. He's not being called a sycophant because he was defending the IG codex (in fact, he hasn't even posted in this thread), but rather as an example that he's a well known fanboi. It ain't slander if it's true.

And again, I feel like I'm either poorly explaining myself or your desperate to find offense, but the second quote does not call you a fan boi. It says those that disagree are branded as whiners, wheras those that ignore the bad things are normal, and not fanboys. Essentially, you're trying to argue that in pointing out how nobody is calling you a fanboi, HBMC called you a fan boy. Sure, he implied that you were, but only in the context of himself as a hater!

HBMC said it's a double standard for you to call me X when I don't call you Y. You're response seems to be, "haha, you call me Y while claiming not to be X, so YOU have the double standard."

I'm not sure if I"m deeply confused of if you're just not getting it, but the point of this entire tedious exercise was to point out that nobody is attacking people for being overly cheerful and chipper, or for being fanbois, or sychophants, or anythign like that. Yet those that dwell on potential negatives are hunted for blood sport. That's your double standard. I can find post after post of people preaching down to me and HBMC about how we're ruining their good time, and being negative, and how that's just awful.

I've said this before, but I'll repeat it: why is it not ok for me to post something negative about a product, yet it's perfectly fine for people to whine and moan about my post? So, complaining about a third party product that I'm going to buy and use regardless is taboo, yet railing against your community members because we have some negative thoughts is a useful post?

No, endless kvetching isn't useful, but that applies to both sides. In every one of these threads, we spend more time arguing over the negative comments than making them. The only problem is that the negative comments are both on topic and can lead to productive conversation. Repeatedly chiding us for being negative is both Off topic and counterproductive.

If you have a genuine issue with our comments, ignore them! Don't read them! report us to Mods! Do what you feel is necessary, but I'm just tired of getting yelled at for being fatalistic. Until you buy the site and make it a rule that only smiles and rainbows are allowed on Dakka, I'm going to call a spade a spade, a jerk a jerk, and a 16pt Stormtrooper overpriced.

**H.B.M.C.**

Ozymandias wrote:Well those quotes were all from ONE post that you made AFTER my initial comment so...

Actually they were from three different posts in two different threads. But hey, let's not let truth get in the way of a good argument...

**Agamemnon2**

Oh well. To be fair, even if the worst of Reds8n's rumors are true, my standard Ogryn config (5 guys with a Bone), only gets 60 points more expensive. I might not need a hammer after all.

**Ozymandias**

George Spiggott wrote:So they pay another 10-15 points each for the additional point of Toughness and an Attack/Shot. -1 Strength unless they charge where they also gain +1 Initiative. Oh and stubborn means morale checks are always against Ld 6 or better.

6 points cheaper than Grey Knight Terminators?

Well to be fair, against many opponents the Ogryns are going to be a much tougher nut to crack than the GK Terminators. Things like Banshees, Genestealers, Bloodletters/crushers, etc are going to have much more trouble taking down a unit of Ogryns than they are a unit of GK terminators. So it's really what you want the unit to do. For pure cc killing power, GK termies are a better bet but for staying power, Ogryns probably win (haven't math-hammered it out but I'm sure someone will).

**ph34r**

Shep wrote:
ph34r wrote:
You're right. I can just take my warsmith's servo arm as er...

Completely off-topic, but i feel compelled to suggest this. It might not have crossed your mind, and I'm honestly just looking for a way to make you a bit happier.

It is perfectly legal under the GWGT rules for you to use the loyalist space marine rules to represent your iron warriors. You could use a master of the forge to represent your warsmith, and you can even do fun conversions and use thunderfire cannons and whatnot.

It might not be what you want to do, but its there for you if you want it.

I know that I could have my iron warriors "count as" something else, but there is no way to get the whole deal. I could get obliterators from codex chaos, but no veteran skills or servo arms or basilisks. I could get basilisks from codex IG, but nothing else. I could get servo arms in codex SM, but again no seige specialist skills, no obliterators, no basilisks. There's no hope for my IW any more, so I have moved on to my IG.

Kungfuhustler wrote:You haven't had anything to contribute to this thread (IMHO) for several posts. I understand your nerdrage, as I feel it too, but please quit whimpering like a grot all over the interwebz.

I have no rage, I have got over the fact that 2/3 of my armies don't exist any more by now. Right now I am just saddened by the fact that the IG codex is looking bad.

And on topic, the "make enemies re-roll cover" special order seems really good.

**Polonius**

Wildeyedjester wrote:Wow. I came to dakka to see what rumors held and found this series of slandering and over emotional posts. I am saddened to see that such name calling and pointless bickering goes unchallenged and unadressed by moderators here. I would have thought that a thread labeled IG discussion in one of the more well known forums would have been just that and contain an actual discussion. I would have also hoped not to find only a series of hatred, flamings, rants about GW in general, and signature quotes that call people idiot.s

Well, first off, it's only slander if it's false. Second, if you think anything here is a genuinely over emotional flamewar than you haven't seen much of anything.

Threads get off topic. Some get back on, some degenerate. keep in mind that the actual rumors in this thread are probably only a few pages of text long, making the rest commentary and analysis, not hard substance.

I think that, like most communities, there is a common shared response when certain rituals occur. For every new codex, there is a wave of optimism, followed by the harsh reality of the downsides to units, followed by a cycle of argument, not about if there are holes and negatives and flaws, but whether we are spending too much time discussing the flaws and negatives.

Anyways, I think if you spend a bit more time here, learna few personalities, and figure out how to skip posts that are tangential or totally OT, you'll find a lot of good stuff here. If you genuinely think you can find internet forums with that are both just as lively as Dakka with less noise, feel free to let us know, but generally every forum has a pretty high noise ratio. Ours might be more heated, but noise is noise.

**Rated G**

ShumaGorath wrote:
Rated G wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:Ogryn excell against low volume high damage attacks and get torn down by high volume low damage attacks (banshees vs orks for example). They fill an entirely different roll than grey knights.

We have guardsmen to soak up those low volume, high damage attacks, for much less. We don't need an overly expensive unit (ie Ogryns) to do what the basic grunt already does. What we need is something to take those high volume, low damage attacks like a champ and come back swinging. Hence, GKT.

What the army needs and what the unit excels at are two different things, They would be pretty reasonable against daemon princes and avatars as well. The problem is the guard army wants a cureall for its weakness to high volume close combat, and thats something it will never have since its not in the spirit of the army to have it. I bet the tau would love it too, but they aren't ever going to get it. Ogryn are a cure to a problem that the guard don't have. They are a somewhat heavy damage output squad that can counterassault like champs after the rest of the line pours some fire on to their target. They are there to mop things up or hold down far off objectives.

I'm glad you expounded, because you initially made very little sense. Regardless, that's not the point. Nor does it matter what Tau players want. Guard players have a legitimate "cureall" (which I think your usage is hyperbolic) that is more economically sound...GKT. If Guard did not have access to GKT, it would be different and your comparison to Tau would hold a bit more water. But as they do have access to GKT, Ogryns seem less and less feasible as more rumors are brought to light. Guard players don't want a cureall, they want something within their own list that is competitive to options offered to them from other lists.

**Shep**

H.B.M.C. wrote:As far as the Storm Trooper issue goes (and this applies to Ogryn and Commissars as well), my ire stems from the fact that these units haven't been worth taking for over a decade now and given the chance to make them better GW have once again dropped the ball.

It's looking that way. And when I've finished my testing, and come to that conclusion definitively, I think I'm going to be pretty bummed.

H.B.M.C. wrote:For Ogryn, as Aggy has pointed out, GKTs end up being a cheaper and more effective choice (which, to me, is just ludicrous)

We'll probably have access to them for another 2 years. Then this will be our counter attack for the next 3

H.B.M.C. wrote:and then for Commissars, easily my fav Guard unit of all time (hence my alter ego, Commissar Calgar - who's currently on a fishin trip), they're still overpriced and, if what Aggy said about power fists is true, they're going to have arbitrary restrictions placed upon them that not only make no sense, but invalidate existing models. Not that invalidating models is 'new' for GW, but I really thought we were passed wholesale removal of options that kill of entire units or choices (maybe I was optimistic thinking that the lessons of 'Generic Daemons' had been learnt).

I don't really 'get' what we're supposed to do with commissar's in the new book. but we need some more information. Where can they go, what can they take, I'm even looking into really skimping on my troops choices, and trying to get away with 3x vets and 3x chims. I think adding a commissar with a fist could be perfect for 10 vets in a chim. Able to take on a combat squad no problem and take over their objective. Great leadership and affordable. But then again, that might not even work.

H.B.M.C. wrote:But going back to the Storm Troopers, I've always said, right from the beginning, that I don't field Stormies in my Guard army. I have six full squads of Kasrkin and they have always, always been used as Inquisitorial Storm Troopers. And until GW comes along and removes all the Inquisitorial stuff from the DH and WH Codices, turning them into Codex: GKs and Codex: SoB, I will continue to use them as ISTs rather than regular Stormies and I will finally be able to complete my dream of having a fully airborne IST force thanks to the new Valk.

You might have already answered this, but do you have an aversion to running your kasrkin as veterans with 3x special weapons, 4+ armor save BS4 troops? I think thats what Robin wants the cadians to consider their kasrkin. I think it might be what my vostroyans turn into while i figure out how I want to use my platoons.

**Polonius**

One of the problems with Ogryn solely as a tarpit unit is that it raises the quesiton of "would penal legion simply do the job better?"

I mean, things like banshees or even stealers do a lot of powered attacks, and are relatively soft hitting back. If you can get a 20-30 wound IG squad for the same cost, why not use them instead of ogryn? Particularly if commissars give stubborn.

I mean, a tarpit unit is fine it's a genuine tarpit, things like plaguebears for example simply strick around for ever. Ogryn might make a fine counter to light shock troops, but those aren't the IG's problem. IG can gladly sacrifice a single squad to allow 2 others with flamers and lasguns to cut down banshees/stealers/harlies.

**Platuan4th**

Wildeyedjester wrote:Wow. I came to dakka to see what rumors held and found this series of slandering and over emotional posts. I am saddened to see that such name calling and pointless bickering goes unchallenged and unadressed by moderators here.

The mods here allow a quite a lot of leeway relative to other sites. Frankly, I'm glad that they do, as most of the reason I come here is because we're allowed to speak our minds and have it out without the mods descending from on high(hell, half the time some of them are involved) and telling us to behave every time someone says something insulting. Yes, we may bicker like children(and if it gets out of hand, they intervene), but that doesn't mean they have to treat us as such and babysit us. We're big boys and girls, we can handle it or we can close the window/go to another forum more heavily moderated/any number of other options. It's OUR choice. They don't sit over our shoulders and make us behave with threats of suspension or banning, they let us be ourselves, for better or for worse. And it's why I think Dakka is the best forum on the net.

If you have a problem with it, I'm sorry and wish you would look around at other threads to see how the rest of the site is before you decide to leave. If you still don't like it, then maybe Dakka isn't the right forum for you after all and I wish you the best.

**Ozymandias**

Polonius wrote:
Umm, not to sound really clueless, but isn't Toreador a pretty shameless fanboi? I"m pretty sure his track record is pretty clear. He's not being called a sycophant because he was defending the IG codex (in fact, he hasn't even posted in this thread), but rather as an example that he's a well known fanboi. It ain't slander if it's true.

Sure, calling someone out as a sycophantic is always good, especially when they haven't even posted.[/sarcasm] It may not be slander, but it still can be offensive. I could say Stelek is an ass but it wouldn't be relevant to this topic and would still be offensive.

And again, I feel like I'm either poorly explaining myself or your desperate to find offense, but the second quote does not call you a fan boi. It says those that disagree are branded as whiners, wheras those that ignore the bad things are normal, and not fanboys. Essentially, you're trying to argue that in pointing out how nobody is calling you a fanboi, HBMC called you a fan boy. Sure, he implied that you were, but only in the context of himself as a hater!

HBMC said it's a double standard for you to call me X when I don't call you Y. You're response seems to be, "haha, you call me Y while claiming not to be X, so YOU have the double standard."

I will say that I'm not in the best of moods and many of these posts are really, really rubbing me the wrong way so maybe I came on too strong but I think you are misinterpreting what I'm trying to say. Basically, I grew tired of reading negative post after negative post.

I'm not sure if I"m deeply confused of if you're just not getting it, but the point of this entire tedious exercise was to point out that nobody is attacking people for being overly cheerful and chipper, or for being fanbois, or sychophants, or anythign like that. Yet those that dwell on potential negatives are hunted for blood sport. That's your double standard. I can find post after post of people preaching down to me and HBMC about how we're ruining their good time, and being negative, and how that's just awful.

I've said this before, but I'll repeat it: why is it not ok for me to post something negative about a product, yet it's perfectly fine for people to whine and moan about my post? So, complaining about a third party product that I'm going to buy and use regardless is taboo, yet railing against your community members because we have some negative thoughts is a useful post?

It's fine for you to post something negative, and frankly I haven't had any problems with your posts (as they are almost always well thought out and reasoned). What I have an issue with is the "the sky is falling" mentality that we see so god-damn much of in this and the previous thread. Or as you put it:

No, endless kvetching isn't useful, but that applies to both sides. In every one of these threads, we spend more time arguing over the negative comments than making them. The only problem is that the negative comments are both on topic and can lead to productive conversation. Repeatedly chiding us for being negative is both Off topic and counterproductive.

Agreed with the condition that the positives are allowed to be posted without being shouted down.

If you have a genuine issue with our comments, ignore them! Don't read them! report us to Mods! Do what you feel is necessary, but I'm just tired of getting yelled at for being fatalistic. Until you buy the site and make it a rule that only smiles and rainbows are allowed on Dakka, I'm going to call a spade a spade, a jerk a jerk, and a 16pt Stormtrooper overpriced.

That's fine and as I said, I really don't have issues with your posts. If I ignore a certain other poster I will get made fun of behind my back (as he has done before) and given his posting regularity the IG threads would be mostly empty...

Plus, despite the cynicism I value his (oh feth it, we all know I'm talking about HBMC) opinions on all things IG. I think he could be a lot more productive if his posts were more like Sheps, using his experience to analyze the good and the bad. But then that makes me an ass for telling him how to post... :p

**Gestalt**

I bet they are counting the +1 str from ripper guns as the furious charge.

He did say ogryns were 40 points, he also said that the 115 cost may be the Bone'ead and 3 ogryn, for 4 total. Or it may be 3 total, so there is still hope at least. Nork has FNP too.

The tank commander is BS4 and +1 to armor pen rolls, The vanquisher cannon doesnt really need that but it would give a hull lascannon S10 at the same target. That would be 220 points.

BOLS has the twin linked and +1 armor pen as 2 separate orders. Fire in ranks seems to be lasgun only, not plasma guns/hellguns. Orders are taken using the receiving squad's LD, not the officer, so Vox is pretty mandatory and might screw hvy weapon squads then.

**Ozymandias**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:Well those quotes were all from ONE post that you made AFTER my initial comment so...

Actually they were from three different posts in two different threads. But hey, let's not let truth get in the way of a good argument...

My mistake. Your THREE quotes were only from TWO posts.

Nevermind that you ignored the rest of my post...

**Frazzled**

This thread is closed. The moderators politely asked that this thread get back on track and it was immediately derailed.

This thread will be reviewed to see what disciplinary actions are needed after my warning post.

OTT but this moderator apologizes to Wildeyedjester for the thread getting out of hand again.