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Nork with FNP warms the very cockles of my heart, because it means there's at least one Ogryn in the game who's as tough as one should be. I'm not sure if he'll be all that useful, since getting your command HQ into close combat is a large liability for IG, doubly so if it costs you two Orders per turn.

I'm very much against counts-as. I'm one of those people who will go out and buy a model to represent something I don't have rather than sub it during a game. A while back for a series of upcoming games I needed some Scouts w/Missile Launchers and two Land Speeders w/Heavy Flamers, so I went out and bought some scouts and two new Land Speeders.

I'm just one of those people who really likes WYSIWYG, and will usually not field something if I cannot rep it with the correct model. It's one of the reasons I own about 10 Marine Commanders with various weapon options, and then several duplicates of those models but with Jump Packs added and why I own 15 standard Russes (I have three of each possible weapon config - Hull HB, Hull LC, Hull HB + Sponson HBs, Hull LC + Sponson HBs). I hate fielding things that look different to what they're armed with or what they are. It's a personal OCD-ish thing.

So the answer is no, I wouldn't use them as H-Vets because... well... they're Storm Troopers. I love using them as Storm Troopers, even though they've never been that great (really, having 6 squads in Chimeras is great fun, even if they're worthless, and I imagine that 6 squads in Valks will be even more worthless, but way more fun!).

I just can't use a unit that is clearly one thing as something else completely.

Polonius wrote:One of the problems with Ogryn solely as a tarpit unit is that it raises the quesiton of "would penal legion simply do the job better?"

I mean, things like banshees or even stealers do a lot of powered attacks, and are relatively soft hitting back. If you can get a 20-30 wound IG squad for the same cost, why not use them instead of ogryn? Particularly if commissars give stubborn.

I mean, a tarpit unit is fine it's a genuine tarpit, things like plaguebears for example simply strick around for ever. Ogryn might make a fine counter to light shock troops, but those aren't the IG's problem. IG can gladly sacrifice a single squad to allow 2 others with flamers and lasguns to cut down banshees/stealers/harlies.

I see them as a tarpit that still has some teeth. A unit of Banshees will still beat a unit of conscripts every turn but they'd bounce off the Ogryns and the Ogryns would proceed to beat them down.

It's an option and it makes me make a decision and that's not a bad thing.

Polonius wrote:One of the problems with Ogryn solely as a tarpit unit is that it raises the quesiton of "would penal legion simply do the job better?"

I mean, things like banshees or even stealers do a lot of powered attacks, and are relatively soft hitting back. If you can get a 20-30 wound IG squad for the same cost, why not use them instead of ogryn? Particularly if commissars give stubborn.

I mean, a tarpit unit is fine it's a genuine tarpit, things like plaguebears for example simply strick around for ever. Ogryn might make a fine counter to light shock troops, but those aren't the IG's problem. IG can gladly sacrifice a single squad to allow 2 others with flamers and lasguns to cut down banshees/stealers/harlies.

Which is the problem with having too many unit options. Units will be redundant. The IG don't need as many tanks as they have, they don't need ogryns, they don't need ratling snipers, they don't really even need the penal troops. The codex has enormous variety but a large amount of overlapping or unnecessary roles. The ogryn simply fall into a niche that the IG have no need for and would need to be pointlessly cheap to see use over more versatile and numerous base troop and tank combinations. Their biggest problem is that they don't fit in the army.

Speaking of Nork, does anyone think that they'll (eventually) re-issue the original Nork model, or make a new one? Ditto for Chenkov and Al'rahem?

ShumaGorath wrote:
Which is the problem with having too many unit options. Units will be redundant. The IG don't need as many tanks as they have, they don't need ogryns, they don't need ratling snipers, they don't really even need the penal troops. The codex has enormous variety but a large amount of overlapping or unnecessary roles. The ogryn simply fall into a niche that the IG have no need for and would need to be pointlessly cheap to see use over more versatile and numerous base troop and tank combinations. Their biggest problem is that they don't fit in the army.

I've sometimes advocated "Make them decent at their role or take them out", but really, I wouldn't want to lose Ogryns. They're a fun piece of background material. Of course, if I had my druthers, we wouldn't've lost Electro-Priests either.

Ozymandias wrote:

Polonius wrote:
Umm, not to sound really clueless, but isn't Toreador a pretty shameless fanboi? I"m pretty sure his track record is pretty clear. He's not being called a sycophant because he was defending the IG codex (in fact, he hasn't even posted in this thread), but rather as an example that he's a well known fanboi. It ain't slander if it's true.

Sure, calling someone out as a sycophantic is always good, especially when they haven't even posted.[/sarcasm] It may not be slander, but it still can be offensive. I could say Stelek is an ass but it wouldn't be relevant to this topic and would still be offensive.

There are times when using the right word is the right choice. HBMC could have said "maybe somebody who regularly defends GW and it's practices with a zeal that indicates emotional involvement rather than a total grasp of the relevant facts", but why say all that when Sycophant works? If anything, that's an accurate indicator of the posters conduct and not, in itself, inflammatory. It's not like he was described as a brown noser, ass kisser, or things even worse.

I will say that I'm not in the best of moods and many of these posts are really, really rubbing me the wrong way so maybe I came on too strong but I think you are misinterpreting what I'm trying to say. Basically, I grew tired of reading negative post after negative post.

Hehe, why, because they were accurate? I mean, I get what you're saying, but if people are wrong, correct them. If they're simply crazy, ignore them. If it's genuinely repetitive and annoying, report them or try to post something more positive. If they're revealing uncomfortable truths, well, I can't help you there.

It's fine for you to post something negative, and frankly I haven't had any problems with your posts (as they are almost always well thought out and reasoned). What I have an issue with is the "the sky is falling" mentality that we see so god-damn much of in this and the previous thread. Or as you put it:

And I guess I just have to ask, why? What is so bad about people complaining?

No, endless kvetching isn't useful, but that applies to both sides. In every one of these threads, we spend more time arguing over the negative comments than making them. The only problem is that the negative comments are both on topic and can lead to productive conversation. Repeatedly chiding us for being negative is both Off topic and counterproductive.

Agreed with the condition that the positives are allowed to be posted without being shouted down.

I don't think there's been too much evidence of that. I mean, wishy washy stuff gets canned, as do comments like "sure, stormtroopers suck, but why complain when tanks are even more super!"

If you have a genuine issue with our comments, ignore them! Don't read them! report us to Mods! Do what you feel is necessary, but I'm just tired of getting yelled at for being fatalistic. Until you buy the site and make it a rule that only smiles and rainbows are allowed on Dakka, I'm going to call a spade a spade, a jerk a jerk, and a 16pt Stormtrooper overpriced.

That's fine and as I said, I really don't have issues with your posts. If I ignore a certain other poster I will get made fun of behind my back (as he has done before) and given his posting regularity the IG threads would be mostly empty... Plus, despite the cynicism I value his (oh feth it, we all know I'm talking about HBMC) opinions on all things IG. I think he could be a lot more productive if his posts were more like Sheps, using his experience to analyze the good and the bad. But then that makes me an ass for telling him how to post... :p