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Shep wrote:Of all of the people that are absolutely convinced that the new IG book is garbage, how many are avid tourney players?

I think everything sounds awesome so far, and I hate tourneys

Ozymandias wrote:Neither I nor DBM ever said ignore the bad things, stop with the fallacious arguments please. After God knows how many pages of you and a few others whining about the negatives I'd had enough. I know you think there are some positives in this codex, but the way you jump to the negatives so quickly and so vehemently and then call everyone who doesn't share your view a sycophant ass-kisser (including Toreador who hasn't been here for months) was really, really off putting. I know you have strong feelings for this codex but god-damn dude, chill a little bit, you haven't even seen the codex yet or played ANY games with it.

Selective reading must be fun for you Ozy. Let me quote myself:

me wrote:I said only a page or so ago that I'm looking forward to the Codex.

me again wrote:I dunno about you guys, but even with ultra-redundant and unnecessary tanks and 16 Point Epic Fail Troopers, I'm still looking forward to this Codex.

me once again wrote:... and as I've said right from the start, like the recent Marine 'Dex, I'm really looking forward to this Codex.

How many times do I have to say it.

BYE

Dave47 wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:This just in. Ogryns are not 35 points. They're 40. So says reds8n.

Didn't reds8n storm out of this thread in a huff? He might be trolling us. A lot of other people have been saying 35 points (with stubborn, which reds8n didn't initially mention) so I'd like to see another source verify this before I take it as true.

But yeah, 40 points is a lot of points. I mean, that's a full squad of Guardsmen. Or a Sentinel with heavy flamer.

EDIT: Also, don't Ripper Guns still add +1 strength?

That info is off Warseer, which he appears to be quite comfortable in. There's no indication that the Ripper Gun rule will stay, and it wont matter if it does. S6 vs S7 makes very little difference against most opponents. It'd make them better against the Avatar and give them a fighting chance against Wraithlords, but they'd still get shredded by everything else.

Shep wrote:Of all of the people that are absolutely convinced that the new IG book is garbage, how many are avid tourney players?

Oh good one Shep. Let's denigrate tournement players as a way of discounting the criticism levelled at the Guard Codex. I mean, if it's only those dirty tournament players who don't like it, then us virtuous paragons of the GW hobby - casual gamers - can go on and keep having fun while the tournament players huddle in their corners complaining about points cost.

There's one thing at Dakka that's worse that people like me complaining all the time, and that's the morally superior self-righteous 'casual gamer mafia'. Don't fall into that trap Shep.

Dave47 wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:This just in. Ogryns are not 35 points. They're 40. So says reds8n.

Didn't reds8n storm out of this thread in a huff? He might be trolling us. A lot of other people have been saying 35 points (with stubborn, which reds8n didn't initially mention) so I'd like to see another source verify this before I take it as true.

But yeah, 40 points is a lot of points. I mean, that's a full squad of Guardsmen. Or a Sentinel with heavy flamer.

EDIT: Also, don't Ripper Guns still add +1 strength?

Yeah, but he's a huffy witch, you don't want to listen to him. I think he's a communist too.

No, ripper guns don't add +1S.

Yes they're stubborn.

Nork has FNP, but he's just a bodyguard.

Anyway must dash, my fething reading lessons start soon.

How many times do I have to say it.

Well constructed criticism generally points out both flaws and features. Likes and dislikes. Professional reviews always give ups and downs. Would you want to read a movie review and have someone say they loved the film after they trashed it for five paragraphs? It sets up a confusing contradiction.

You are not a bright and cheery guy with a lot of things. You tend to hit the negative areas frequently and repeatedly. You rarely if ever are so specific with things you approve of. Try adding more of that and I bet you will find that the inferred tone of your posts changes dramatically.



Also I find your trollish signature cute. I'm to assume thats directed at me? You really are quite a hypocrite you know, always mashing the report button whenever you hear a rough word and actually flaming users in your signature.

Agamemnon2 wrote:. There's no indication that the Ripper Gun rule will stay, and it wont matter if it does. S6 vs S7 makes very little difference against most opponents. It'd make them better against the Avatar and give them a fighting chance against Wraithlords, but they'd still get shredded by everything else.

Well, it's critically important if you want to try and actually use Ogryns as a "tar pit" unit instead of a Rough Riders-esque "charge and wipeout" unit. Having S5 in subsequent rounds of combat means you'll be causing less wounds than current Ogryns. This will have a negative impact on CR.

After the first round of combat, you'll need 9 Ogryn attacks to kill a single Space Marine.

-The 2-5 Infantry Squads can be marged into a single unit.


If that is true then that is pretty kick ass.


Also, I think the rumours look great. Sure the Killpoint issue is not superfixed but being able to take squadrons of tanks thats pretty awesome.

Everyone keeps mentioning OH 9 LEMAN RUSSES!!!

How about the fact you can merge squads and those squads can have h. weapons.


The codex looks fantastic and copnsidering the drop in points for basic guards men seems pretty great.

75 Point Griffons

In a Squad of 3 1 vp.

2 Leman Russes 1vp


I think the codex looks fantastic.

I wonder fi you can transport Ogryns in Valkyries.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Shep wrote:Of all of the people that are absolutely convinced that the new IG book is garbage, how many are avid tourney players?

Oh good one Shep. Let's denigrate tournement players as a way of discounting the criticism levelled at the Guard Codex. I mean, if it's only those dirty tournament players who don't like it, then us virtuous paragons of the GW hobby - casual gamers - can go on and keep having fun while the tournament players huddle in their corners complaining about points cost.

There's one thing at Dakka that's worse that people like me complaining all the time, and that's the morally superior self-righteous 'casual gamer mafia'. Don't fall into that trap Shep.

I'm a tourney player (with guard, yes, I use my Night Lords -excuse me, black legion painted blue- if I want to play the boring way); and I like the rumours I've been hearing so far. If I'm correct points often change quite late in the process, so we'll have to see. 40 points for ogryn is pretty steep, but if, like reds8n says (thanks for the rumours btw) they also have stubborn... Out of interest: could a mth specialist run the number on an Ogryn squad vs anything without a ridiculous armour save in cc such as orks or genestealers?

C:CSM is boring and killed of lots of cool fluff, and that's what bugs me the most about it. With IG, I don't have that feeling (yet), I genuinely believe you'll have lots of interesting options.

And besides H.B.M.C. , I think Shep meant it the other way around, saying tourney players seemed more optimistic...

As much as I respect His Buxom's Majesty's Commissar's opinion on IG, I do feel he's a bit pessimistic here .

Dave47 wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:. There's no indication that the Ripper Gun rule will stay, and it wont matter if it does. S6 vs S7 makes very little difference against most opponents. It'd make them better against the Avatar and give them a fighting chance against Wraithlords, but they'd still get shredded by everything else.

Well, it's critically important if you want to try and actually use Ogryns as a "tar pit" unit instead of a Rough Riders-esque "charge and wipeout" unit. Having S5 in subsequent rounds of combat means you'll be causing less wounds than current Ogryns. This will have a negative impact on CR.

After the first round of combat, you'll need 9 Ogryn attacks to kill a single Space Marine.

At this point it doesn't matter. Who in their right mind would want to use a 250-point speedbump? Ogryns are dead. Mine will never see the table again after April 30th. They'll join my IG Landspeeder and Knights Paladin on the Oblivion Shelf.

This rumor season has been a rollercoaster for me. When the reference sheet leaked, everything looked great and rife with possibilities, but every single rumor since then has revealed some new inflated points cost, or new limitation. The edifice of an awesome new future has crumbled piece by piece until for me there's nothing at all left.

I can't even muster the excitement to build a Deathstrike.

Dave47 wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:. There's no indication that the Ripper Gun rule will stay, and it wont matter if it does. S6 vs S7 makes very little difference against most opponents. It'd make them better against the Avatar and give them a fighting chance against Wraithlords, but they'd still get shredded by everything else.

Well, it's critically important if you want to try and actually use Ogryns as a "tar pit" unit instead of a Rough Riders-esque "charge and wipeout" unit. Having S5 in subsequent rounds of combat means you'll be causing less wounds than current Ogryns. This will have a negative impact on CR.

After the first round of combat, you'll need 9 Ogryn attacks to kill a single Space Marine.

Vs what? 36 to kill a single ogryn from the marines? If there is a way around the leadership troubles ogryn would be a very effective tie up unit for shock assault troops like genestealers or banshees and devastating against troops like basic tac marines. High toughness and wound count is fantastic against opponents whose main use it to cut through terminators. The leadership is the real issue I'm seeing in the unit, if they can be kept from breaking they could easily hold up a more devastating unit forever, or eventually even break it.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Dave47 wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:. There's no indication that the Ripper Gun rule will stay, and it wont matter if it does. S6 vs S7 makes very little difference against most opponents. It'd make them better against the Avatar and give them a fighting chance against Wraithlords, but they'd still get shredded by everything else.

Well, it's critically important if you want to try and actually use Ogryns as a "tar pit" unit instead of a Rough Riders-esque "charge and wipeout" unit. Having S5 in subsequent rounds of combat means you'll be causing less wounds than current Ogryns. This will have a negative impact on CR.

After the first round of combat, you'll need 9 Ogryn attacks to kill a single Space Marine.

Vs what? 36 to kill a single ogryn from the marines? If there is a way around the leadership troubles ogryn would be a very effective tie up unit for shock assault troops like genestealers or banshees and devastating against troops like basic tac marines. High toughness and wound count is fantastic against opponents whose main use it to cut through terminators. The leadership is the real issue I'm seeing in the unit, if they can be kept from breaking they could easily hold up a more devastating unit forever, or eventually even break it.

+1

Besides, they only have to hold for one turn till the rough riders do their charge thingy vs the spezz murreenz or termies. Anything else will get clobbered quite badly. Before judging Ogryn, priests, commissars, and some other stuff (weapon optiosn for Ogryns) should be fully known as well... And I'd LOVE to use them vs banshees

Hollismason wrote:-The 2-5 Infantry Squads can be marged into a single unit.


If that is true then that is pretty kick ass.


Also, I think the rumours look great. Sure the Killpoint issue is not superfixed but being able to take squadrons of tanks thats pretty awesome.

Everyone keeps mentioning OH 9 LEMAN RUSSES!!!

How about the fact you can merge squads and those squads can have h. weapons.


The codex looks fantastic and copnsidering the drop in points for basic guards men seems pretty great.

75 Point Griffons

In a Squad of 3 1 vp.

2 Leman Russes 1vp


I think the codex looks fantastic.

I wonder fi you can transport Ogryns in Valkyries.

All else equal then you've merged many H weapons into one unit which can only target, ONE enemy unit.

Furthermore the dreaded 5th edition CC rules will be the bane of a massive platoon.

All else equal

CommissarKhaine wrote:Besides, they only have to hold for one turn till the rough riders do their charge thingy vs the spezz murreenz or termies. Anything else will get clobbered quite badly. Before judging Ogryn, priests, commissars, and some other stuff (weapon optiosn for Ogryns) should be fully known as well... And I'd LOVE to use them vs banshees

Priests don't apply to Ogryns, and they don't have any weapon options at all. Confirmed by Reds8n, again, on Warseer.

I've tried the whole optimism thing, but there's simply no way in Nine Hells to make them worth even 35 points, let alone 40.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Also I find your trollish signature cute. I'm to assume thats directed at me? You really are quite a hypocrite you know, always mashing the report button whenever you hear a rough word and actually flaming users in your signature.

Unless you are a Mod Shuma you have no information on how many times and by whom you have been reported.

Frazzled wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Also I find your trollish signature cute. I'm to assume thats directed at me? You really are quite a hypocrite you know, always mashing the report button whenever you hear a rough word and actually flaming users in your signature.

Unless you are a Mod Shuma you have no information on how many times and by whom you have been reported.

Unless he's been lying every time he has a tendency to shout the word reported when he's been somehow insulted. I don't really need to have mod access to read his posts.

That would not be a correct assumption Shuma.

ShumaGorath wrote:If there is a way around the leadership troubles ogryn would be a very effective tie up unit for shock assault troops like genestealers or banshees and devastating against troops like basic tac marines.

The sheer concentrated falsehood of this statement is heavy enough to ripple all of spacetime. I've done the math, and for killing basic tac marines, genestealers or Aspect Warriors, the best Elites choice an IG army can take in the ca. 200 point range is Grey Knight Terminators. They outfight Ogryns approximately two-to-one.

Frazzled wrote:That would not be a correct assumption Shuma.

Then he probably shouldn't tell people that he does it.

What we should do and what we do is the difference between the darkness and the light though isn't it.
Back to your thread before this gets needfully esoteric.

ChaseMacKenzie wrote:
All else equal then you've merged many H weapons into one unit which can only target, ONE enemy unit.

Furthermore the dreaded 5th edition CC rules will be the bane of a massive platoon.

All else equal

I think it'll be more useful to merge two or three squads over merging five. At which point you can cluster similar weapons, autocannons or heavy bolters for example, combined fire from those is almost always better, and will almost always be shooting at similar sorts of targets as your lasguns.

foil7102 wrote:Hey! I just realized why they increased the cost of the hellhound while reducing its range. Since it now has to drive so close to the enemy to fire. Once it is destroyed by the now in range melta guns or charging power fist it automatically grants a 4+ cover save for my opponent! Isnt that great. This new added utility really justifies the points!

Well I for one will actually START using hellhounds because of these new rules. that frakking template never hit, ever, and it was the biggest joke in my army if I ever played with it. I can see how these little meshuggas will be very helpful. Think about this with me, think like a general for feths sake! your HELLHOUNDS ARE YOU'RE COUNTER CHARGE. think about it. you have 3 behind your lines/tank line and your opponent is starting to get close. Now, you shuffle your men/tanks about allowing them to get through and shoot forward 12". Cock them sideways and make a wall (I can visualize them flying forward in a synchronized powerslide) and unleash raw promethium all over their ugly mugs. you just created an 18" wall that can only be hit on 6's that unleashed a trillion hits and wounds.
(not really directing this at you specifically, just everyone seems to think this should be called the nerfhound all of a sudden when It actually got alot better)

ph34r wrote:
warsmith's servo arm as er...tank hunters and simply... A BUNCH OF WHINING.

You haven't had anything to contribute to this thread (IMHO) for several posts. I understand your nerdrage, as I feel it too, but please quit whimpering like a grot all over the interwebz.

Vaktathi wrote:The basic squads at 10 strong are 10pts more than current ST's, don't have targeters or Krak Grenades, and lose the AP5 on the weapon (granted it's not much, but it's something) compared with current ST's. Granted they can take an extra special and a heavy weapon too, but the basic squads get more expensive and lose stuff. It's also no longer a "Stormtrooper" army, it's a Veteran list. While it may seem a non-issue to some, to others it's a ticking point. I started my ST army not because I thought it was effective and amazing, but because I was in love with the idea of the Stormtrooper.

Have you considered jumping gak to the Inquisition? If you really just love the stormys and the idea behing them than DH or WH would be a good idea. not to mention their chimeras have two fire points!

Agamemnon2 wrote:I'm getting ready to cry, I really am. All I ever wanted out of the IG was being able to field Ogryns. That's all. I don't care for tanks, Valkyries, Storm Troopers or Enginseers. All I wanted was three-wound abhumans with big shotguns and a happy-go-lucky attitude. Four years ago, they were the reason I started my Penal Regiment. I own fifteen models, most of them lovingly converted from plastic Ogres, individually named and all. I even build a custom superheavy tank for them.

You bastards. You blew it up. Damn you, damn you all to hell.

This makes me really sad. quit making me sad.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:If there is a way around the leadership troubles ogryn would be a very effective tie up unit for shock assault troops like genestealers or banshees and devastating against troops like basic tac marines.

The sheer concentrated falsehood of this statement is heavy enough to ripple all of spacetime. I've done the math, and for killing basic tac marines, genestealers or Aspect Warriors, the best Elites choice an IG army can take in the ca. 200 point range is Grey Knight Terminators. They outfight Ogryns approximately two-to-one.

I somehow doubt they outfight genestealers, banshees, daemonettes, and other shock assault troops. Since they die to banshees, daemonettes, and stealers like chumps. I would much prefer to have three t5 wounds vs one wound with a good save when I'm fighting something throwing out a dozen power weapon attacks. Ogryn excell against low volume high damage attacks and get torn down by high volume low damage attacks (banshees vs orks for example). They fill an entirely different roll than grey knights.

Wait so sorry 4 ogryn + 1 bone head is 210 points.....

Thats 40 guys and spare 10 points..... Am I missing something?

Most of the codex looks nice. The iconic units got better and some got cheaper, most of the common accessory units are still reasonable, and there are some interesting new options.

Stormtroopers and Ogryn have always lagged, and that appears to be more true than usual in the next iteration. This doesn't affect me personally because I wasn't planning on using either unit anyway, but I sympathize with the guys who had hoped for an improvement there.

Is there any news at all about Rough Rider options? I did plan on using some of those and I'm wondering if I'll have to redo any of my modelling. In particular I want to know about options other than lances.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Shep wrote:Of all of the people that are absolutely convinced that the new IG book is garbage, how many are avid tourney players?

Oh good one Shep. Let's denigrate tournement players as a way of discounting the criticism levelled at the Guard Codex. I mean, if it's only those dirty tournament players who don't like it, then us virtuous paragons of the GW hobby - casual gamers - can go on and keep having fun while the tournament players huddle in their corners complaining about points cost.

There's one thing at Dakka that's worse that people like me complaining all the time, and that's the morally superior self-righteous 'casual gamer mafia'. Don't fall into that trap Shep.

i totally agree with you. I was actually going the other way with that line of questioning. I definitely wouldn't call myself a casual only player. I attend one or 2 GTs a year and as many RTTs as i can get to. I play lots of apoc and play with lots of my casual friends, but I'd place myself in the tourney crowd.

I'm just curious if tourney players like myself are more inclined to like the changes or less. it seems like they are happier, because they are just looking for one, maybe two builds that can win games.

And I'm happy to say that all of the criticism that you've personally leveled at the rumors seems pretty reasonable. I don't agree with all of it, and some of it I might not believe things are quite as extensively fubarred as you do, but your thought processes have been logical and level headed. Some people are taking the role of reactionary, and those are the ones that concern me more.

I'll speak frankly about my opinions of the codex. I'm not really fanboy or nerdrage, I'm falling right in the middle, a lot like you.

ELITES They might not have made anything in the elites slot any better. Thats unfortunate, it is one of my favorite slots (generally speaking) in 40k. I would have liked to do something substantial with ogryns. i won't declare whether or not they are utterly useless, but it is plainly obvious that at their cost, you wont be seeing 20-30 of them on a table. Stormtroopers honestly seem a bit points inefficient to me as well. I won't call 'time of death' on them yet until I've played 2-3 games with a list built around them, thats just how i roll. If 10 with deep strike and meltaguns was 130, and is now 180 or 190, then its pushing a 40-50% increase in cost. Their new and better table deployment and their better ap won't yield that value I think. Strength 3 is strength 3. I look forward to playing with them however, and their cool valkyries. i don't think they are horrendously unplayable, saying that is ridiculous.

HQ This got better, some of those hq specific orders sound great. both the twin-linked and the re-roll succseful cover save orders are really good. The advisors have value, And I'm open minded about the primaris. CC equipped ICs don't interest me, but I don't imagine they would have no matter what Robin did, just not the right army for that.

TROOPS Now troops got really cool. Veterans moved to troops, with tons of mini doctrines, we get a funny and fun unit in penal legionarres, and the platoon structure got a massive buff. it gained some protectoin from KP bleed and picked up special weapon and heavy weapon squads from the hq and heavy slots, made em scoring, cheaper, and able to receive some interesting special orders. Some may lament the loss of drop troops, but I wouldn't have pity on anyone but someone who purchased elysian drop troops. Even then, it is just as easy to imagine that they parachuted in just seconds before the game started, and the valks you did buy could be carrying the second wave.

FAST ATTACK This slot got way faster, and better to boot. Armor 12 sentinels, i love that! Valkyries i just have no idea, I'm just going to get some PT with them and formulate an opinion, nothing looks totally out of whack for or against them. hellhounds picking up fast and the ability to squadron is close enough to 15 points value for me to sleep at night. Definitely still fieldable, i think they are hurt more by their competition in the wide open heavy slot than by the 13% points increase.

HEAVY SUPPORT This is whats got me excited. 2x3 russes will probably work, it might not. Thats ok, 3x2 might work, or 1x3 and a manticore and a single 5x plasma cannon executioner, maybe 3-6 bassies will be a terror or a long range wave of 3 bassies, a mid range wave of 3x griffons all with nets, and a single demolisher to go hunting/blocking. this slot has been so radically altered, opens up so many CHOICES (you don't have to squadron if you don't want to) and lumbering behemoth opens up the lascannon, makes the single HB better and makes the 3x HB better, in fact it makes each and every sponson rig worth taking, and still retains the in-game choice of whether or not to move.


So there you have it. No fanboy gushing, no nerdrage aneurism, just a little bit of disappointment coupled with a lot of excitement and optimism.

aka_mythos wrote:

ChaseMacKenzie wrote:
All else equal then you've merged many H weapons into one unit which can only target, ONE enemy unit.

Furthermore the dreaded 5th edition CC rules will be the bane of a massive platoon.

All else equal

I think it'll be more useful to merge two or three squads over merging five. At which point you can cluster similar weapons, autocannons or heavy bolters for example, combined fire from those is almost always better, and will almost always be shooting at similar sorts of targets as your lasguns.

That has been my plan as I have theoryhammered my new IG list, but even then the sheer thought of losing all of that to 5th bs CC rules makes me weary.

Honestly with 6 FOC troop places, I think I can field a viable and effective list without the merging

Agamemnon2 wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:If there is a way around the leadership troubles ogryn would be a very effective tie up unit for shock assault troops like genestealers or banshees and devastating against troops like basic tac marines.

The sheer concentrated falsehood of this statement is heavy enough to ripple all of spacetime. I've done the math, and for killing basic tac marines, genestealers or Aspect Warriors, the best Elites choice an IG army can take in the ca. 200 point range is Grey Knight Terminators. They outfight Ogryns approximately two-to-one.

1) I'm hoping ogryns will have some interesting options, but we'll just have to see. I only skimmed warseer, but it looked like only the basic ogryn couldn't get upgrades; a bonehead with a power fist would seem fun in a unit... I admit things aren't looking to rosy for them, but I still think we should see the book AND play a few games before we start panicking. I sincerely hope your 15 big guys will still be playable - I only converted 5 of'em.

2) Especially banshees seem to be in trouble vs Ogryn... Most things only wound them on a 5 or even a 6, that has to count for something, right? besides, quite a few tourneys (and casual gamers as well where I play) don't allow for allies.

ShumaGorath wrote:Ogryn excell against low volume high damage attacks and get torn down by high volume low damage attacks (banshees vs orks for example). They fill an entirely different roll than grey knights.

We have guardsmen to soak up those low volume, high damage attacks, for much less. We don't need an overly expensive unit (ie Ogryns) to do what the basic grunt already does. What we need is something to take those high volume, low damage attacks like a champ and come back swinging. Hence, GKT.

CommissarKhaine wrote:1) I'm hoping ogryns will have some interesting options, but we'll just have to see. I only skimmed warseer, but it looked like only the basic ogryn couldn't get upgrades; a bonehead with a power fist would seem fun in a unit... I admit things aren't looking to rosy for them, but I still think we should see the book AND play a few games before we start panicking. I sincerely hope your 15 big guys will still be playable - I only converted 5 of'em.

Reds8n was very explicit that Ogryns are exactly as crap as they appear to be. No options, no Orders, no nothing. Minimum squad is 115 for a Bonehead and two Ogryns, additional bodies 40 points each. They even break the trend by making those additional models more, not less expensive than the initial points investment.