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brookm, what is that picture? it looks like a fat, bald, blind guy holding a giant ham???!??

Points aside... I am actually looking forward to playing a game with a Commissar Lord leading an Ogryn squad. Maybe with a Primaris Psyker to make it harder for my Tau friends to shoot up the squad.

Efficient? Probably not. Fun? Oh yeah.

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:

shep wrote:
Use 55 point chimeras to score.

Vehicles don't score.

Why is it that any time someone uses short hand to describe how to move a scoring unit to an objective, some dude rolls in and thinks he meant that the vehicle itself is scoring.

Guys, when people say 'score with x transport' they mean use the range from the hull to measure your scoring distance from a scoring unit inside.

But for everyone's benefit I'll use "score by embarking a unit of troops that isn't a swarm and that doesn't have a special rule that prohibits them from being a scoring unit into a transport. then drive the transport over to the objective."

Because otherwise they'd have to point out that your little scoring trick suddenly costs much more than the stated 55 points.

I personally don't see a list that was invalidated by the new codex. The sole exception being the drop trooper list. All the mechanized grenadier lists actually got cheaper (assuming 110pts for a carapaced vet squad) w/an extra special weapon and a heavy weapon option. Oh and their transports dropped by 30 points so if you give the extra weapons it actually a wash from where it used to be. How does that invalidate "ST" list?

Infantry armies got a major shaving if you always included the vet. it's at 16 points cheaper than it used to be per squad, 26 if you took frags. LC and Plasma actually wash on point cost so I don't see why this is huge. Heavy Weapon squads got cheaper (albiet they are more vulnerable to ST6 weapons than before). And more stuff got moved into scoring units.

Lemans went up 15 points if you equipped them w/heavy bolter sponsons like before. so for 15pts I get +1 side armor (huge) and if i stand still I get 9 more shots to go with that battle cannon. I say hell yes, may even add a heavy stubber to amuse myself.

Ogryns are more expensive but i'll hold out till I see their full entry. I will say that at the moment I can't see myself fielding them but that could change based on the final review of the codex. ST's are the same thing. I've got ideas on how I would use them but i'll need to really read the whole codex to see if any of them pan out.

Sorry if all of this got posted already but I wanted to summarize my feelings on the rumors of the new codex. I'm looking forward to it. Like any treadhead or long time IG player it looks like it's going to be fun. I think like every codex we'll get units that don't work well in competative games but there are a lot of fun units too for afternoon drinking games so so far i'm really enjoying the rumors of the new codex

Polonius wrote:

Death By Monkeys wrote:

Polonius wrote:I don't know if you're being sarcastic, but that's just it: we're not assuming people looking on the bright side are fanbois.

You may not, but H.B.M.C. certainly implied that he does:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Then you can't comprehend the English language. We're not ignoring the good things, we're just discussing (as Polonius said) the bad parts, and it seems that those of us who don't instantly lap up whatever GW has to offer are branded as nerdraging whiners whereas those who choose to simply ignore the bad things and pretend they don't exist (like you Ozzy) are normal, and not fanboyish in the slightest.

He's saying that if Ozy calls HBMC a hater, but does not call himself a fanboi, it's a double standard. HBMC isn't calling either party either label. He's implying that if he's a Hater, than by logic Ozy would than be a fanboi, but I think that again HBMC has allowed attitude to slightly cloud content. I'm assuming, and I could be wrong, is that both view points are totally valid and not due to some moral failing.

Pointing out the existence of a possible double standard does not, in itself, create that double standard.

The double standard I see is that if I mention a list of positives without going into the negatives, I am a fanboi but it's somehow morally ok for you and HBMC to rail against the negatives without mentioning the positives and not be called a hater. Frankly I was really tired of reading through several pages of whining and it seemed every time someone mentioned the positives someone lashed out or increased whining level.

H.B.M.C. wrote:DD makes a good point.

I own 30 Russes for feth's sake!!! I've got 400 infantry, a further 25 other Guard vehicles, every Cadian model ever made and soon will have 10 Super-Heavies. Of course I'm a damned Guard fanboi. The presence of this Codex isn't going to stop me from using them or lessen them in my eyes.

But the Codex will be flawed. And discussing those flaws isn't a bad thing.

Death By Monkeys - I'm not implying that those who like the Codex are fanboys. I'm implying that those that ignore the bad things to the point where they pretend they don't exist, or those that think we should be somehow greatful for GW for this Codex, they're the sycophantic loons.

Neither I nor DBM ever said ignore the bad things, stop with the fallacious arguments please. After God knows how many pages of you and a few others whining about the negatives I'd had enough. I know you think there are some positives in this codex, but the way you jump to the negatives so quickly and so vehemently and then call everyone who doesn't share your view a sycophant ass-kisser (including Toreador who hasn't been here for months) was really, really off putting. I know you have strong feelings for this codex but god-damn dude, chill a little bit, you haven't even seen the codex yet or played ANY games with it.

Alrighty, I am about to officially eat my overly optimistic words. The points listed over at BoLS are dog gak and I hope they are inaccurate.

I am not goint ot flip out, but I am not happy.

All the tanks appear to be horribly overpriced if these rumors are true, apart from the chimera.

So, I am going to hang tight but I am getting my bib so that I can properly eat crow if this is true. These tanks will cost nearly as much as a landraider but be far less effective if everything we see now turns out to be true.

I feel the bile rising, but I am going to hold on to hope here.

Oh BoLs!

focusedfire wrote:I mostly play Tau and Eldar, so I know about getting hit with the nerfcannon. The removal of effective units everytime a new book comes out.

Everyone loses good units every time a new book comes out. Not everyone has their entire codex disappear (latd) or lose all their special rules (IW, and the other traitor legions).

You forgot Craftworld Eldar. So yeah, I know exactly where your coming from but refuse to let it get to me. I instead look ast it a a new challenge.

It's good for me. Keeps me from getting to set in my ways and helps to improve the mental agility.

Edit for added sentence

Sponsons, if we can move and fire *everything* then imo they are worth the point hike... However, if you can only fire 1 extra weapon on the move, then they're not worth it imo. "Lumbering Behemoth" wouldn't be that "Lumbering" if have to stand still

If Ogryns actually have Stubborn, then I am not certain they need a Commissar. As for any other character to give them, I think we need to see the rules on Priests, they could be worth it.
Ogryns don't need to be super killy (hopefully RR will be closer to that...), they just need to not die so fast. GTK are tough and kill MEQ better, but against enemy units with powerweapons (ie BloodCrushers, characters, ect) they will drop MUCH faster than Ogryns.

I am not looking forward to loosing a whole HW squad to one multilaser But at least the amount of S6+ multishot weapons is rare... oh wait, assault cannons


Have we even heard if units besides Infantry Squads and Command Squads can take Commissars (with out a Lord)? I really hope I don't need a Lord to give a unit of Conscripts a Commissar.

At least Hellhounds will be able to move 12", flame on, and then be only hit on a 6+ in melee. But yeah, being with in striking distance of Meltaguns is going to really put a damper on things.

Oh well, I am still looking forward to making some lists

focusedfire wrote:You forgot Craftworld Eldar. So yeah, I know exactly where your coming from but refuse to let it get to me. I instead look ast it a a new challenge.

It's good for me. Keeps me from getting to set in my ways and helps to improve the mental agility.

Edit for added sentence

Your repeated declaration of treating stuff a "challenge" and way to "improve the mental agility" is not relevant to the topic, not helpful to the discussion, and a waste of a post. I like my armies to have rules, you like challenges. Great for you.

If you knew "exactly" where I'm coming from then you would have played, say, Squats and Iron Hands SM with all the unique options taken advantage of. Unless you ran a full court of the young king or some other fringe craft world eldar thing you can still take your army. I did not "forget" about it. The CSM legions lost special rules, wargear, squad organization, and their entire existence.
And LatD just aren't any more.

Bel-Tain let you take aspect warriors as troops. Hows that for a fringe army that no longer exists.

But hey, I'm trying to be nice and you want to get snarky. Good for you, I leave you to wallow in your grief.

Have a nice day

I dunno...... are we allowed to say fire a battlecannon plus other weapons? or just non-ordinance turret guns? if we can fire ordinance weapons plus other stuff, that's a definitely bonus and worth the points IMO.

But... I think the whole idea of raising the points while allowing squadrons of everything is to allow people to do armored company style lists, but not encourage it. instead they make men cheaper so you'll buy more of them, and they make the valk so great that you really want them. so it breaks down like this..

new army men models = less pts so you buy crapton of them
new valk = good long awaited model you can field 9!
tanks = new kit coming some day but not now, no need to make you buy a crapton till they release the new models and then add an update in WD that makes them all suddenly awesomer.

So todays new guard = men and valks, with tanks for spice

focusedfire wrote:Bel-Tain let you take aspect warriors as troops. Hows that for a fringe army that no longer exists.

But hey, I'm trying to be nice and you want to get snarky. Good for you, I leave you to wallow in your grief.

Have a nice day

You're right. I can just take my warsmith's servo arm as er...
better example, tank hunters and bonuses against bunkers is simply...
4 heavy support choices is just...
basilisks are still...
well surely some of the options still exist just like you said, but in a different force organization? I guess I'm not looking at the new chaos codex hard enough, because you can still take aspect warriors in the new eldar codex.
And I can just use LatD in apocalypse!
Man, now that I've seen your point of view things look so much more positive. You totally are in the exact same situation as me! I'll have a nice day, you have a nice day and not respond with some half-baked argument while you mention how nice you are or how armies not existing is a fun exercise in mental agility so this thread can get back on track.

Sponsons, if we can move and fire *everything* then imo they are worth the point hike... However, if you can only fire 1 extra weapon on the move, then they're not worth it imo. "Lumbering Behemoth" wouldn't be that "Lumbering" if have to stand still

All lumbering behemoth seems to be is the turret not counting towards the weapons you fire. Since HB aren't defensive any more, this means move and fire one gun and turret, or stand still and fire everything. Strangely the biggest impact that this rule has is not when the tank is lumbering along, but rather when it is just sitting still.

@Ph34r,
And there is no longer any such thing as storm guardian, Solitaires, and the Crystal Targeting matrix.

Tau got reemed by by the nerf cannon in 5th ed.

Yet I'm still positive and can look and discuss both the negatives and positives without it making me.....like you.


On-topic,
I agree that the Lumbering Behemoth will have more impact when standing still, but only if your buying those sponsons that evreyone claims are too expensive.

Personally, I feel a battlecannon and hull mounted lascannon will be enough.(Thats almost an effective doubling of fire power)
I'm willing to bet that tourny builds will revolve around just that and if your going to spend points it will be in the command tank.

What would such a squadron cost then?


Could somebody repost the rumored costs for the vehicles again?

I remember when word first broke on the Punisher, everyone was "thats broken," and I said "wait for the points" and now its suddenly overpriced.

A Punisher, with heavy bolter sponsons is 200pts. 4/5th a land raider. I think it is 4/5ths the effectiveness of a land raider. You can line item add or subtract cost, but it all comes down to relative effectiveness and not abstracted values. This vehicle probably should have been more like 190 upgraded, but I'm not going to argue or cry foul over 5% because I know it'll be fun to try out.

The executioner with 5 plasma cannon shots comes in at 230pts. Only an 8% difference from a land raider. I definitely see this unit killing more than a land raider even if it doesn't have every possible bell and whistle.

I know this is going to be an objectionable position but 90% the when a unit is a no brainer, it usually means the units undercosted. If you gave a Leman Russ all the advantages this version has, but kept its price the same, it would be beyond a no brainer its a steal. I don't want cheese in my list, even if its just a sprinkling of Parmesan. I'm going to field a Punisher and an Executioner because irregardless of the cluttered arguments I believe they can make back their cost if I'm smart about how I use them.

Ozymandias wrote:

The double standard I see is that if I mention a list of positives without going into the negatives, I am a fanboi but it's somehow morally ok for you and HBMC to rail against the negatives without mentioning the positives and not be called a hater. Frankly I was really tired of reading through several pages of whining and it seemed every time someone mentioned the positives someone lashed out or increased whining level.

C'mon Ozy, don't join the ranks of people that enjoy misreading. Yes, it's a double stanard if you're a fanboi and we're not haters. Too bad nobody said that. I also wouldn't really consider any of our comments "rail against the negatives".

Neither I nor DBM ever said ignore the bad things, stop with the fallacious arguments please. After God knows how many pages of you and a few others whining about the negatives I'd had enough. I know you think there are some positives in this codex, but the way you jump to the negatives so quickly and so vehemently and then call everyone who doesn't share your view a sycophant ass-kisser (including Toreador who hasn't been here for months) was really, really off putting. I know you have strong feelings for this codex but god-damn dude, chill a little bit, you haven't even seen the codex yet or played ANY games with it.

When did anybody here actually call anybody a fanboi, a sycophant, or an ass kisser? If I missed them, point it out, but I think your seeing them when they don't really exist, or were used only after we get yet another lecture on not being negative.

ubermosher wrote:Points aside... I am actually looking forward to playing a game with a Commissar Lord leading an Ogryn squad. Maybe with a Primaris Psyker to make it harder for my Tau friends to shoot up the squad.

Efficient? Probably not. Fun? Oh yeah.

I can see myself doing that as well. It depends what abilities the Commissar Lord bestows on the army as a whole, as opposed to being a Fearless Ld10 character who probably makes his squad fearless too.

ph34r wrote:
You're right. I can just take my warsmith's servo arm as er...

Completely off-topic, but i feel compelled to suggest this. It might not have crossed your mind, and I'm honestly just looking for a way to make you a bit happier.

It is perfectly legal under the GWGT rules for you to use the loyalist space marine rules to represent your iron warriors. You could use a master of the forge to represent your warsmith, and you can even do fun conversions and use thunderfire cannons and whatnot.

It might not be what you want to do, but its there for you if you want it.



And here is a question that will certainly get me in a lot of trouble, even if it seems quite innocuous.

Of all of the people that are absolutely convinced that the new IG book is garbage, how many are avid tourney players?

That question is not loaded with implications. it is a genuine query as I am really curious about the answer. it seems like some of the more optimistic people participating in the thread are names I recognize from tourneys.

This isn't a rumor, just a change I think would make a lot of people happy.

How much more interested in the new version of the LRBT would you be if the Lumbering Behemoth rule allowed the turret weapon(s) to target a separate target from the hull weapons? Personally, I think that would be an awesome change that would make the tanks much more valuable.

focusedfire wrote:@Ph34r,
And there is no longer any such thing as storm guardian, Solitaires, and the Crystal Targeting matrix.

Tau got reemed by by the nerf cannon in 5th ed.

Yet I'm still positive and can look and discuss both the negatives and positives without it making me.....like you.

I love the air of moral superiority your posts carry with them. Did you have to work at that, or does it come naturally?

Hulksmash wrote:I personally don't see a list that was invalidated by the new codex. The sole exception being the drop trooper list. All the mechanized grenadier lists actually got cheaper (assuming 110pts for a carapaced vet squad) w/an extra special weapon and a heavy weapon option. Oh and their transports dropped by 30 points so if you give the extra weapons it actually a wash from where it used to be. How does that invalidate "ST" list?

The basic squads at 10 strong are 10pts more than current ST's, don't have targeters or Krak Grenades, and lose the AP5 on the weapon (granted it's not much, but it's something) compared with current ST's. Granted they can take an extra special and a heavy weapon too, but the basic squads get more expensive and lose stuff. It's also no longer a "Stormtrooper" army, it's a Veteran list. While it may seem a non-issue to some, to others it's a ticking point. I started my ST army not because I thought it was effective and amazing, but because I was in love with the idea of the Stormtrooper.

The total package if including a transport is cheaper, this is true, but the infantry themselves are, if anything, worse than before unless they have something else we just haven't heard about.

But given the cost savings and extra special weapons potential, I think it'll be fine. I know that's pretty much what I'm going to do with my ST army.


Most everything else I agree with you on, I just wish they hadn't putzed the Stormtroopers to 16pt one-shot suicide squads.

This just in. Ogryns are not 35 points. They're 40. So says reds8n. What that boils down is a 60% increase in points, and it completely destroys any hope of having the Bonehead be an automatic upgrade. So we're looking at 50 points for a Bonehead, 40 points for an Ogryn.

As opposed to 61 points for a Brother-Captain, 46 points for a Grey Knight terminator.

Wow... ummm hopes for Ogryn are getting very thin. I'll hold in there anyways.

I'm getting ready to cry, I really am. All I ever wanted out of the IG was being able to field Ogryns. That's all. I don't care for tanks, Valkyries, Storm Troopers or Enginseers. All I wanted was three-wound abhumans with big shotguns and a happy-go-lucky attitude. Four years ago, they were the reason I started my Penal Regiment. I own fifteen models, most of them lovingly converted from plastic Ogres, individually named and all. I even build a custom superheavy tank for them.

You bastards. You blew it up. Damn you, damn you all to hell.

For what should have been the most straight forward buff in the entire army, Ogryns seem to be getting the short end of the stick. 40pts... they better have T(5), FNP, Furious Charge, better ripperguns, 4+ sv, 3 wounds, power weapons... and maybe something else as well. There really isn't much way to justify them.

They have T5, Furious Charge, sure, but I2 and S5, both lower than before, so FC is actually a nerf compared to what they were.

The GKT comparisons I made earlier are now even more ludicrously askew.

From warseer...

reds8n wrote:Second HQ order in forces enemy unit in LOS to commander to reroll successful cover saves " target on my command" or words to that effect.

I think this could be one of the most useful orders yet. Only downside is they'll have LOS to your commander.

Agamemnon2 wrote:This just in. Ogryns are not 35 points. They're 40. So says reds8n.

Didn't reds8n storm out of this thread in a huff? He might be trolling us. A lot of other people have been saying 35 points (with stubborn, which reds8n didn't initially mention) so I'd like to see another source verify this before I take it as true.

But yeah, 40 points is a lot of points. I mean, that's a full squad of Guardsmen. Or a Sentinel with heavy flamer.

EDIT: Also, don't Ripper Guns still add +1 strength?