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Sadly Aggy I think that you are right about that. Oh well. I like Inquisitorial allies... even if they're not that great.

I'm okay with allies, really. I even use paired Daemonhosts sometimes when I want an unpredictable element with a potential, however narrow, to kick ass and take names.

Amusingly, a five-man GKT squad costs 245 points. Which one do you think will do more to frell up my opponent's plans?

Edit: For those of you playing the home game, the answer is Grey Knight Terminators, by a margin of about 3 more dead Marines, and they suffer only 0,27 wounds in return, as opposed to 1.111 (IIRC) the Ogryns took.

Oh wow. When GK Termies are the cheaper alternative, you know something's wrong...

I suppose a comparison against someone with a lower save, like Orks, would narrow that margin down, but the numbers involved become time-consuming and tedious to calculate, plus there start to be physical constraints, such as how many models get to strike back.

I should try to do a comparison without the Canoness, just 260pts worth of Ogryn, though.

EDIT: A quick scribble tells me that 255pts' worth of pure Ogryns (7, including Bone, assuming the Bone is counted in the minimum cost of 115pt) would do 2.3 + 4.02 wounds, and take 2.2 in return. Enough to win the combat, but you'd still be left with ca. 4 marines in the target squad who could use Combat Tactics to auto-break and get into a better position for their next turn, leaving the Ogryns open for retaliatory fire. The target squad would certainly be crippled, and to be fair, the GKT's would be no better off on their next turn, either, as they'd massacre those 10 averagemarines instead.

I'm aware these numbers arent adding up very well, if you saw my horribly scribbled notes, you'd understand why. They are indicative, though.

The cost of a unit is balanced internally, not externally by looking at other army lists.

BrookM wrote:The cost of a unit is balanced internally, not externally by looking at other army lists.

That's normally the case, and I wouldn't ever do this calculation for, say, Assault Terminators or Harlequins, but I can take GKTs as allies in my IG army just fine, they directly compete with Ogryns for an Elites slot.

EDIT: Also, I'm pretty sure I'll be able to do this same sort of calculation against Rough Riders soon, and the results will be just as heartbreaking.

BrookM wrote:The cost of a unit is balanced internally, not externally by looking at other army lists.

That's a poor method of doing it, both factors need to be taken into account. An army shouldn't be designed to be balanced against itself, it should be designed so that all of its components can be efficiently used against opposing lists and be competitive with every other choice.

It's pretty obvious that with every codex and army book, there are at least a couple, often more, unit choices that fail these criteria.

Agamemnon2 wrote:I'm pretty sure I'll be able to do this same sort of calculation against Rough Riders soon, and the results will be just as heartbreaking.

I really hope not. Rough riders make me very happy. they are the only valid counter-charge (I.E. not just screen with fodder) I have come across and their (sadly vanishing) ability to outflank with the light infanty doctrine was priceless. Sure, my rough riders look deceptively like Saurus riding on Cold Ones... It's advanced stealth technology they use to look like the local, um, lizardfolk?. GW doesn't seem to understand that no matter how good a model works in the game they will never sell them if they are stupid, ugly, cater to a non-standard and overly priced variant army and look like pancho vila.

To be fair, even if the Ogryns hadn't gotten more expensive, they still would not be able to match the GKTs' anti-MEQ potential. A maximum squad of 10 ogryns with one Bonehead will do 8.99 wounds in shooting plus CC.

Power weapons for everyone in a squad is just that damn good.

Kungfuhustler wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:I'm pretty sure I'll be able to do this same sort of calculation against Rough Riders soon, and the results will be just as heartbreaking.

I really hope not. Rough riders make me very happy. they are the only valid counter-charge (I.E. not just screen with fodder) I have come across and their (sadly vanishing) ability to outflank with the light infanty doctrine was priceless. Sure, my rough riders look deceptively like Saurus riding on Cold Ones... It's advanced stealth technology they use to look like the local, um, lizardfolk?. GW doesn't seem to understand that no matter how good a model works in the game they will never sell them if they are stupid, ugly, cater to a non-standard and overly priced variant army and look like pancho vila.

Uh, you misunderstood me. Rough Riders kick Ogryns' asses. I expect that as soon as their new stats are solidified, I'll be able to do a comparison of them vs. a comparable squad of Ogryns, and find the same still applies. Unless they've taken away Hunting Lances, of course.

Hunting Lances are still the same old one-shot wonders, only big change to RR's is that they now have both a pistol and ccw to fall back on instead of just one of the two.

***From BoLs***
Heavy Support:
Lemas Russ Squadron
Composition:vehicle squadron composed of 1-3 Leman Russ or Leman Russ Demolishers in any combination.
***
No executioner or punisher squadrons, go figure. I am once again filled with sadness and loathing.

Kungfuhustler wrote:
***From BoLs***
Heavy Support:
Lemas Russ Squadron
Composition:vehicle squadron composed of 1-3 Leman Russ or Leman Russ Demolishers in any combination.
***
No executioner or punisher squadrons, go figure. I am once again filled with sadness and loathing.

If you'd notice on there, it states that the same options apply to the other LR's, and lists the Manticore and Deathstrike as the only non-squadronable vehicles.

holy crap! I'm happy again! Happy, sad, happy, sad, I can't take it anymore! This is BAT COUNTRY

WE CAN'T STOP HERE! Have to wait till May!

But yeah the new info on BoLs is good.
But LR got more expensive? Isn't that counter productive if you can now take them in squads?

To be fair, almost everything except the Exterminator and basic Russ are going to be too expensive to field in squadrons unless playing 2500-3000pts games, at which point you might as well throw in a baneblade, take everything as single tanks instead of squadrons and play Apocalypse.

A kitted Executioner is going to run ~250ish. for 3 squads of 2, that's 1500pts.

Holy Crap! That's a lot.
Maybe they aren't releasing models for all these new variants then if that's the points cost!

Way this thread went up 4 pages when I was asleep I thought someone might have posted pics. Imagine my surprise when I just saw pages of text!

If the tank commander allows you to split fire AND makes the tank BS4 my list is almost complete. I have high hopes for at least the tanks now. My all storm trooper army builds are going to get played to death over the next month and a half. Gotta send em' out in style! They have a few more chimera rides left in them and they will kill many a marine before the new dex comes out. It's kinda funny to me that everyone is analyzing the new guard vs. marines when marines seem to be the only army I auto-win against. Seriously, Deathwing, Ravenwing, drop-pod-spam it dosen't really matter. Guard kill marines. Hell, I even killed sisters down to a cannoness and heavy flamer earlier today.

Vaktathi wrote:

Kungfuhustler wrote:
***From BoLs***
Heavy Support:
Lemas Russ Squadron
Composition:vehicle squadron composed of 1-3 Leman Russ or Leman Russ Demolishers in any combination.
***
No executioner or punisher squadrons, go figure. I am once again filled with sadness and loathing.

If you'd notice on there, it states that the same options apply to the other LR's, and lists the Manticore and Deathstrike as the only non-squadronable vehicles.

I took that to mean the the different sponson options and no the squadron-ability. I'm not going to be surprised if we end up seeing a limit on the number of variants that can be taken, like a "one per squadron maybe upgraded," sort of thing. I realize nothing to that effects been said, but I think its a bit much to have as many variants and to see as many variants fielded over what is suppose to be the basic tank.

Vaktathi wrote:A kitted Executioner is going to run ~250ish. for 3 squads of 2, that's 1500pts.

Yep. And I'm going to run a squad of 3 if I can split fire.

Somebody said somthing about pictures... This is the Punisher turret I converted out of plasticard tubing earlier tonight. My 1st plasticard work.

I'll probably make mine from the Stormlord kit.

Thanks to my Vanquishers, Exterminator and Annihilator I have 6 spare Russ turrets. I can make two Eradicators, two Punishers, and then just make the other two "Chaos-y" for Traitor Russes.

I like that punisher a LOT more! Looks wicked!

Augustus wrote:
Really? Weaknesses like impotency in close combat, poor ability to take objectives, low staying power, signifcant morale issues all around and tank vulnerability to assault, complete KP absurdity?

Really. Impotency in CC has not been a drastic weakness ever since 5th edition was introduced. Your opponent charges a squad, kills it and dies to close-range firepower. In fact, Guard should not be potent in CC, or rather, not on a par with traditionally dedicated assault armies. What the new codex does give us is two very capable counter-assault units in the form of RR and Ogryns (despite their cost). A squad of six can deal with the equivalent point cost in Berzerkers, or even a full Ork mob, provided it gets the charge (which, as a counter-assault unit, they should), and they're even decent against assault termis. If that is not powerful enough for you, I'm not sure what ever will be.

The poor ability to take objectives has simply evaporated due to cheaper Chimeras that are accessible for nearly everyone without having to change your FOC drastically, and two types of fast skimmers that can deliver their cargo with pin-point accuracy. Even ST's with their plentiful methods of entering play can contend far away objectives or contribute to killing troops hiding there. Add to that cheaper troops and you have a lot of possibilities.

Low staying power I'm afraid I do not see, barring CC where you want your squads to run anyways (and now you can even make wonderful tarpits if you're so inclined). Line squads can receive a 2+ cover save when under fire. Multiple AV 14 certainly do not suffer from low staying power.

Morale has simply not been an issue for yonks. In fact, IG was among the top armies concerning morale, what with officers, standards, ID and so on. With cheaper officers and commissars and Vet sergeants standard in line squads, I don't see a huge problem here even if the odd squad legs it from time to time.

KP's have also been addressed. We knew it would not be perfect unless they reintroduced VP's. It is however a decent workaround.

Yes, tanks are susceptible to assault. Did you expect them to somehow be resilient in assault?

Shep wrote:
Charge my 50 point squad, win, get rapid fired, charge my 50 point squad, win get rapid fired.

Bad idea. You've just lost 2:1. It does not matter what you kill in terms of point costs.

Use 55 point chimeras to score.

Vehicles don't score.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Have you been reading this thread mythos? There are people who can't field their current army under the new points values, let alone any of the new stuff. It's not about 'wanting it all', it's about wanting something, but being unable to do it because the costs have gone up so much

Yes, this codex is a complete shake-up. So was Orks, so was Daemons, so was the last IG codex (Griffons?). That, I'm afraid, is how things work: Current lists often do not work anymore when a new publication hits the shelves. It's fully possible to include Ogryns, or six Russes, or loads of INF, or Valks. It isn't possible to include it all at once. This notwithstanding, I do understand why some people are bitter.

BrookM wrote:The cost of a unit is balanced internally, not externally by looking at other army lists.

So they can make the Hellhound 400 points as long as the Leman Russ is 500 and a single Guardsman is 20? Or how about making the Hellhound 20 points, Leman Russ 30, and Guardsman 1? Internal Balance with no regard for other armies FTW.

Hey! I just realized why they increased the cost of the hellhound while reducing its range. Since it now has to drive so close to the enemy to fire. Once it is destroyed by the now in range melta guns or charging power fist it automatically grants a 4+ cover save for my opponent! Isnt that great. This new added utility really justifies the points!

kadun wrote:

BrookM wrote:The cost of a unit is balanced internally, not externally by looking at other army lists.

So they can make the Hellhound 400 points as long as the Leman Russ is 500 and a single Guardsman is 20? Or how about making the Hellhound 20 points, Leman Russ 30, and Guardsman 1? Internal Balance with no regard for other armies FTW.

nice retort! although, personally, i think the russ (with the new lumbering behemoth rule) is worth around 32 points. the internal balance "theory" was created by inadequate game designers who just want an excuse as to why their codexes are either completely overpowered or useless and propagated by GW sycophants who praise everything they do without any critical thought. it would only be true if you played in a campaign where only 1 army was allowed. overall, i think this codex is an improvement over the last but it's certainly not without a few WTF?? units/rules. i'll reserve my final judgement until i have an actual copy in my hands and a few games under my belt.

focusedfire wrote:@ Third,

Squadrons already ignore stunned results as per the BRB.

Ahh....I stand corrected sir; you are right.

Well, good question then on what this tank squadron commander ability will be.....hopefully something useful, like the split-fire option you mentioned.

So, are these tank / valk squadrons gonna be like where they all have to stick together and fire at the same targets, like a unit? So if you have 3 basilisks they all have to shoot at the same target? Or will it be more like a zoanthrope kinda thing where 3 count as 1 choice but you can do whatever ya want with em?

kadun wrote:

BrookM wrote:The cost of a unit is balanced internally, not externally by looking at other army lists.

So they can make the Hellhound 400 points as long as the Leman Russ is 500 and a single Guardsman is 20? Or how about making the Hellhound 20 points, Leman Russ 30, and Guardsman 1? Internal Balance with no regard for other armies FTW.