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H.B.M.C. wrote:DD makes a good point.

I own 30 Russes for feth's sake!!! I've got 400 infantry, a further 25 other Guard vehicles, every Cadian model ever made and soon will have 10 Super-Heavies. Of course I'm a damned Guard fanboi.

wow, i just realized after quoting your post that dakka changes a particular 4 letter F word to feth automatically. i was going to say that you also swear like a tanith guardsman too!

H.B.M.C. wrote:

ChaseMacKenzie wrote:Can I induct IST at 10 pts, and reference their hellguns to the AP3 ones in the new codex...??

No more than a Dark Angel player can claim a 3+(I) save on his Storm Shield, or a Chaos player can claim 12 people fit in his Land Raiders.

In other words - no. You can't.

Welcome to 5th Ed.

But the Space Wolves can use the 3+(I) from the new Marine codex as it says "refer to Codex:Space marines" or something to that affect?

But the Inquisitorial Storm Troopers entry doesn't say 'refer to the Imperial Guard Codex' at any point. They are a self-contained unit that exist only within the WH and DH Codices.

I'm planning on running with a couple Eradicators myself, I always wanted a "hellhound" Leman Russ

I have been thinking about the normal Hellhound and if it is worth is at 130 points w/ only a 12" cannon (albeit auto hit) and I am wondering if a combination of Eradicators (or stock LRBT) hitting a unit combined with a strike from Hellhounds would be enough to wipe out an entire Ork Mob in one go (even with grots in front). Currently (w/ a grot screen) Orks are able to advance without much worry into IG guns, but w/ all these tanks that ignore cover (and throw in some griffons for good measure!), those units could be smashed in a couple turns.

The only question is how would they stand up against MEQ.

Hmmmm....

Wild guess says heavy weapons squads are six strong, just like now. The usual way that this sort of squad is done is that squads that can buy massed heavy weapons pay a premium for the privilege. In the current codex, for example, everything but the lascannon got a 5 point surcharge. 60 points is cheaper than a hypothetical infantry squad with three mortars. A ten-man heavy weapon squad would then be a discount for massing heavy weapons. Deducting weapons, there are 45 points worth of men in the squad. Ten men are unrealistic and all other numbers untidy. The six man squad has weight of tradition behind it. One ablative wound before you start losing firepower.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, although I can understand the design considerations behind the new way that guard heavy weapons are handled the outcome does not please me.

As a side note, point costs suggest that you're best off putting any lascannons you want to use in infantry squads and to equip any heavy weapon squads you do use with cheap antipersonnel weapons. An otherwise unupgraded lascannon infantry squad costs 2/3 as much as a lascannon support squad, compared to 11/12 for the same comparison with mortars. They share the same proportional drop in firepower but have considerably different drops in price. This point of economics happens to point in the same direction as HBMC's tactical reasoning behind putting lascannons in infantry squads instead of support squads.

Raxmei wrote:Deducting weapons, there are 45 points worth of men in the squad. Ten men are unrealistic and all other numbers untidy.\

Considering that the new troop squad is 50 points and includes a sergeant, I would say 10 men in the HW squad and no sergeant option. Exactly the same points per guard.
EDIT: and 45 points for 6 wounds would be a lot, considering that in the 3rd ed codex it was 35 points for 6 men and guard cost 66 points for a squad+srg. I'm not saying that HW squads will necessarily be 10 men, but I think that they should.

aka_mythos wrote:My grenadiers are going to be Veterans with carapace.
We don't know all the details on Ogryns, they may well be worth 35pts.
Chimeras worked for me before at 90+ points, at any number of point less if they work equally well, its free points.
I never really thought drop troops should have been a part of the IG, it diluted the value of stormtroopers and blurred a degree of distinctive value of marines over IG.
Valks, I think are about right, especially looking at their weapons and abilities.
We don't know all the rules for LR squadrons yet. In particular the tank squad commander.
If it weren't for the fact you start to run out of places to tuck away 9 Basilisks that would have been an easy list.

OK, that works. OTOH, my Grenadiers started as ISTs, or rather, were retconned into ISTs, so ISTs they are!

I understand that there is some question about Ogryns, but I'm having a lot of trouble seeing how a single minimum-sized unit of 3 non-Scoring Ogryns has roughly the same in-game value of 2 entire units of 10 Guardsmen each. Given that the Ogryns will need a 55-pt Chimera of their own, and probably need to be 6-strong in HtH, we're talking about a minimum of 255 pts. That's a lot of Guardsmen and/or Chimeras.

I refused to pay 90+ pts for Chimeras - under the old rules, I pegged them as 20+ pts overpriced. But if they work for you, all good. If they can have Autocannons, that'll be useful, and I'll refit accordingly.

I resisted Drop Troops for quite a while, but they were just too effective not to take. I now look at it as "Ambushers" - hidden Guardmen break cover at an opportune moment, rather than literally dropping from the sky. Storms weren't worth Elite slots when DSing tri-Melta Vets were available, and it wasn't worth paying extra points for DS/Infiltrate.

Valks are 100+ pts for a non-Scoring Transport unit that carries a lot of guns, but wants to move Fast. In a world of 35-pt Rhinos, 100+ pts for a Transport is pretty crazy.

Right now, Tank Squadrons would have to fire at the same target, whereas IF Squadrons have the strong advantage of multiple Barrage. But yeah, the Tanker Special Character would do something. I'm guessing 50 pts for a BS4 Tank Ace who takes a Tank as an Elite... Woo-hoo!

Oh, I think HWS and SWS will be 35 pts base (instead of a proper 30 pts) *and* weapons will likely get a +5 pt cost bump for good measure. They're good, so GW will necessarily screw the costs.

The rumors seem to suggest that a heavy weapon squad starts with mortars and upgrades from there. I'd bet special weapon squads start with flamers or grenade launchers and go from there.

Ozymandias wrote:I don't even know how to respond to this. What were you looking for HBMC? It looks to me like the new IG codex is going to have lots of new toys, has a solution (may not be your definition of an ideal solution but it is a solution) to the KP problem, and looks like it can be competitive with the big boys. Am I missing something here? Shouldn't we be happy that the IG will finally be a contender again? All I see is "No way Ogryns at 35 points are the suck!" and "ST's at 16 points?!! Are you fething on crack?!" while blatantly ignoring all of the good things that are coming out with this book. Now we see who has the fething double standard.

Any army list with useless entries in it is at least a partial failure. Not that there every could be a perfect idealised list. It doesn't matter how good our Troops choices are if our Elites suck (and by the look of things, they do, badly). I won't be bothering with Storm Troopers, Ogryns and probably not Ratlings either. But hey, now I have room for the 12 heavy mortars with inferno rounds I always wanted!

A wildly disparate power level is just as bad as an underpowered army list. That we got a kickass Heavy Support section does not matter one iota if our Elites slots are populated by fragile overspecialists, disappointing sharpshooters or overcosted Ogryns. If the price for "IG becoming a contender" is leaving those units behind, I don't want to pay it. Would Marine players have been happy if Terminators were unfieldable but the rest of the list awesome? Would Eldar aficionados accept that Farseers, Dire Avengers and Guardians suck, in exchange for kickass Dark Reapers and Harlequins?

My standard is unrealistic, but fair. I want nothing less than internally balanced army lists.

ph34r wrote:My command squads all cost 20 points more: 60 points

But now it can give a unit a 2+ cover save, make heavy weapons twin linked or give you extra shots.

ph34r wrote:My leman russes cost 30, 30, and 45 points more each

And have twice the firepower and 13 side armor

ph34r wrote:My (now abandoned) storm trooper squad increased 70 points

Well there are some points back. Good idea to abandon a unit before a codex even came out.

ph34r wrote:My infantry squads decreased 5 points each: -20 total

and gained leadership 8, a 2+ cover save, twin linked heavy weapons or extra rapid fire shots if you spend an order on them

ph34r wrote:My two veteran squads will cost 55 points more each (though yes, they will each gain a few more useless bodies): 110 points

And they became scoring units. I heard thats a big deal for some missions in 5th ed.

ph34r wrote:Two of my heavy weapons teams decrease by 20 each: -40

And can be twin-linked with an order, and are scoring units.


I think you are missing some serious details. Perhaps you are looking at it less from a competitive point of view and more from a "i spent some money and I dont want to spend any more." point of view. GW isn't really looking to cater to that point of view.




Just in case anyone cares, almost everyone in this thread, although occasionally resorting to hyperbole to make a point, are just talking about things they wanted and didnt get. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I might come in here and try and cheer you up by disagreeing with some people's power level concerns, but there are some people who had desires that just aren't going to get met. Its an impossible task to hit everyones pet ideas and project wants.

Here are some points (some are opinion) that I want to stress.

1. If you just want to win... I see at least one way for you to do that, for any mission... not 100% of the time, no codex should give you that power.

2. If you just wanted to make a fun to play, flavorful army, you can do that, multiple different ways. Your particular version of guard may not be in here, but now its time to have some fun and find something new to put your stamp on. If you aren't interested in something new, well then the unfortunate truth is that GW isn't interested in you. (but i'll still be your friend)

3. No one has played with storm troopers (or know the details of their mission rules) or ogryn yet as far as I know. I agree with many early concerns about their effectiveness. But I hold judgement until I've gotten out of the armchair and up to the table. Talking about them dispassionately seems fine. Freaking out about them this early is just sad.

4. There are tons of misconceptions about vehicle squadrons and if they are worth it or if they aren't. Most arguments for or against use extremes to make their points. No one is talking about taking 9 leman russes, but people are looking to add more russes to their armies in the most efficient way possible. Well played russ squadrons won't be getting charged by power fists because their general knows how devastating this will be, and the codex has the tools to counter this tactic. Kill points as a game mechanic has driven unit sizes up, and killed off MSU for the most part. 3x leman russes into fresh units won't be overkill. Those same russes into a wounded unit of course will. But a well built guard unit would have other options to finish off a unit sufficiently softened unit. I am also aware that just taking a bunch of russes and not having a obejctive oriented gameplan is not going to somehow net you an easy win.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Oh, I think HWS and SWS will be 35 pts base (instead of a proper 30 pts) *and* weapons will likely get a +5 pt cost bump for good measure. They're good, so GW will necessarily screw the costs.

Would you please stop pretending to be me when you post. I'm finding it really disconcerting. You're not a Skrull by any chance DD?

Shep wrote:A lot of stuff

1. A 2+ cover save, at the cost of an order that I will have a mighty 4 of, and the unit not shooting the next turn. The only things I worry about hitting my guard are whirlwinds, flamers, and close combat, and a slightly better "Hit the deck!" at the cost of an order is not good. When you say 2+ save it sounds so super special awesome, but guess what? I can give my squads a 3+ save whenever I want, by doing nothing but invoking a rule found in the main rule book. All armies can get 3+ cover, using up 25% of my super special power to improve the save of a unit by 1, a unit that generally only worries about things that do not care about cover saves, is not worth it. I need those orders to have my lascannons feebly attempt to take out land raiders.
2. Being able to shoot one more HB on the move is trash, but being able to shoot a lot of HB stationary is okay. However, it is not worth that much to me. I make sure my side armor does not get hit so side armor 13, while nice, is not a huge OMG MASSIVE BUFF moment for me.
3. We have pretty much confirmed rumors of storm troopers. 16 points, anti marine guns, special missions (pinning shots? move through cover? great...). Are you seriously suggesting that storm troopers will still be worth taking? Unless I am missing something huge they look to be garbage.
4. Leadership 8, sure. However leadership has not been a problem for me, being able to destroy my enemy has. If I want good leadership I will take a canoness with a book, which I do sometimes. Why not make the squad leader an upgrade option? It's not free if they make you take it, you are paying for it whether you want to or not. 2+ cover I have already addressed. Twin linked weapons are looking good but will never replace melta gun vets. Not even close. Extra rapid fire shots looks good. Here's hoping it's not just lasguns.
5. Twin linked I already addressed, again. Scoring units is a good bonus, but I don't think that I will be lacking troops units in my deployment zone, and I am not going to walk my hw squads towards the enemy. They're just a bit of backup scoring weight.

Perhaps you are looking at it less from a competitive point of view and more from a "i spent some money and I dont want to spend any more." point of view.

That's just straight up wrong. As I said in detail earlier I would love to buy a lot of new units, I even listed all dozen or so that I would want. Unfortunately there is just no way for them to fit in my army list with my basic stuff becoming so much more costly.

Wait, what? PHQs are 60 points? For five models, and the ability to issue one order a turn?

Is that confirmed, or just negative nellies being negative? Because if that's true, that's a load of garbage.

According to http://colgravis.blogspot.com/ "Basic Company Commanders are around 50pts". Hopefully a "Basic Company Commander" is not equivalent to a JO, and there is a lower, less expensive version for troop command squads.
fake edit:
According to the IG summary sheet, there is a lesser "Platoon Commander" unit. I assume this is for platoons.
I would guess that platoon commander is for infantry platoon command squads, company command is for HQ command squads, and the only step above that is a special character. So changed from JO->SO->HSO to PC->CC->special character.

As I understand it, it's as confirmed as anything is right now. It turns my old 238-point platoon into a 220 point platoon. By Grabthar's Hammer, what savings!

And that's not even taking near-compulsory voxes into account (at least 5 pts each)

ph34r wrote:

focusedfire wrote:Same offer goes to you Ph34r. You seem to think its hopless. want to sell now?

If I sold every army that GW made non-existent or horrible... I would have zero armies.

So, to summarizes, the whole sysstem stinks and you hate every army(Its what your staement says)

Then please do the gaming community a favor and sell off the rest so you won't be forced into a game you hate so much that you ruin it for those that enjoy the game.

focusedfire wrote:So, to summarizes, the whole sysstem stinks and you hate every army(Its what your staement says)

Then please do the gaming community a favor and sell off the rest so you won't be forced into a game you hate so much that you ruin it for those that enjoy the game.

What my statement says is that every army I have made so far with the exception of my first few models has been invalidated. My iron warriors do not have rules any more. My small lost and the damned force that I made to go along with my iron warriors does not exist any more. My imperial guard seem to be getting the shaft. Do you understand now? What you assume me to be saying is nowhere near correct.
Please do the gaming community a favor and think before you post.

focusedfire wrote:

ph34r wrote:

focusedfire wrote:Same offer goes to you Ph34r. You seem to think its hopless. want to sell now?

If I sold every army that GW made non-existent or horrible... I would have zero armies.

So, to summarizes, the whole sysstem stinks and you hate every army(Its what your staement says)

Then please do the gaming community a favor and sell off the rest so you won't be forced into a game you hate so much that you ruin it for those that enjoy the game.

Wait, what? He's ruining Warhammer for those that enjoy it? By pointing out flaws in the system? Frankly, if your enjoyment of GW games is so easily impacted by other people pointing out flaws, I would say the problem is on your end. Therefore, based on your logic, I think you need to sell me all of your miniatures. For ten cents on the dollar.

You may protest by pointing out that, even if you did want to quit the game forever, selling for ten cents on the dollar is slowed. But this is your logic. So you should live by it.

Or else stop being ridiculous. Either option works.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

focusedfire wrote:As to the question of stormtrooper pricing. If the same model was available with the same stats and special rules in an Eldar army how much would that model cost. It'd be more than 16 pts.

As a long-time Eldar player, I'll comment on this.

Eldar model BS3(4) WS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 with a 18" S3 AP3 Assault 2 gun and Sv4+?

He looks like a Guardian with a better gun and armor - kind of like what a Black Guardian should be. Cost-wise Guardians are cheaper than any other model, so they are artificially overpriced at 8 pts, but only worth 6 pts base with a 12" S4 AP5 A2 Shuricat. With the gun swap and BS4 and he's worth 7 or 8 pts (S4 easily better than S3, but BS4 AP3 and 18" range is better than the Shuricat). The Armor upgrade is worth a point, so he's worth 8 or 9 pts all told, after factoring for Deep Strike and Infiltrate - Guardsmen get owned in HtH, so DS and Infiltrate aren't very useful. All told, 9 pts in an Eldar army.

For 16 pts, I'd compare him with a Scorpion, Banshee, and Fire Dragon. I'm very partial to A3+ Sv3+ Scorpions, and I don't think that a Stormtrooper model is that good. If you talk about close-in gunners, Fire Dragons easily own Stormtroopers in terms of core utility. Massed Meltas are always useful.

Your math doesn't even begin to reflect the reality of what the eldar pay.

Guardians are 8pts now with 12" range guns and no special abilities. The 10-man squad goes up to 12 pts each when you add the sgt/warlock plus any power that makes the squad effective. Thats without the ap3 gun that has an 18" range, +1 pt sv, the fact that they have a Re-rollable deepstrike, infiltrate, can benefit from orders, and look to have special orders rules.

What game system are you playing that ap3, increased range, re-rollable deep-strike, infiltrate, orders that give you bladestormare don't equalanother 4 pts. In the Eldar army you have to buy a squad to do one then another squad to do the other. Then Buy an Exarch at 12pts plus the power(Isn't bladestorm 15pts). Thats almost 3 points each man before the infiltrate and deepstrike that come out to the 1 pt you claim. HHmm, 16pts total. Yeah they are I3 but the save is 4+.

Edit out the using to much modeling glue joke and instead:

A couple of you mentioned the Fire dragons owning the Storms in ability and use. Not even close. The only time you need 10 meltas is if your facing a complex multi-wound unit like nob bikers, large meq squads not in cover, and now just maybe LRBT squadrons. Their range and rate of fire are two low.

The storms have greater range, higher rate of fire, the ability to take out a single tank(sometimes 2 in a squadron), greater mission flexibilty, is just as good at taking out Meq, and comes with a 55pt transport option as opposed to the 120pt(avg?) wave serp. No they won't do as much against Nob bikers. But with that many tanks behind them thats probably not their mission.

@ Ph34r,

What you meant and what you wrote were two different things.

If you can't handle it when someone calls you on your poor choice of words. Then, with all due courtesy, maybe you should be the one who thinks before posting.

I guess I assumed that anyone would infer "If I sold every army that GW made non-existent or horrible... I would have zero armies." to mean "If I sold every army [that I have] that GW made non-existent or horrible... I would have zero armies." Obviously I cannot sell armies that I do not have. I do not have every army. I should have a disclaimer somewhere about that, sorry for confusing you.
EDIT: for grammar and to be less harsh

I've been crunching the numbers, and as I already field infeasibly large Ogryn squads, I see no reason not to continue to do so in the future, with 1-2 ogryns less.

I hope the "Fists only on Commissar Lords" rumor is false, that way I could get three S6 fist attacks into an Ogryn mob with the investment of a powerFist Commissar. I figured one would cost me ca. 50 pts (assuming 10 point PWs and 15 point Fists). If he's not an IC, it's reasonable enough and would kill an average 1.25 extra Marines per turn on the charge. Of course, the problem is, a five-Ogryn squad needs to lose two models before it needs to roll for Morale, and a Commissar would then execute a third one. At which point the squad is gutted.

The Primaris might be a more agreeable hanger-on, especially if his Nightshroud ability is accurately described (there are still some units in the game who dont have Ld 10). The Enginseer is another option, he'd boost the squad Ld by a point and would add a power weapon + servo arm.

Failing all this, it's back to my other standby, the cheapo Inquisitor. Since it doesnt look like Elite slots are very contested anymore, I can easily sneak in a 20-pointer and give him enough stuff to have some fun. If there's a chance to have a free HQ slot, the eternal favorite, Canoness-with-a-Book is only 50 points.

None of these are particularly good for their points, but, and this is the important bit, they might be good enough for me to have a good time playing with.

@ Dave,

What you call pointing out flaws, others would consider an overly negative attitude. I've never enjoyed a game against someone with the "This S**ks attitude."

If thats the attitude then why are you playing?

His own words might not be what he meant in this case but its just as valid to call someone on an overabundance of negativity as it is to point out flaws in the system.

Thing is if your going to point out flaws, then do so instead of just saying this s**ks over and over.


Edit for dropped letters and to add

@ Ph34r,
No problem Ph34r. BTW, my offers to buy up the armies is just my way of trying to keep things light. Did you catch where I cuaght John on a technicality and locked him into a deal. Now I would never try to enforce such a deal. It's just a game of verbal manuvering to me.

I sincerely hope that your wrong on this dex and end up with an army thats both fun and competitive to play.

Agamemnon2 wrote:The Primaris might be a more agreeable hanger-on, especially if his Nightshroud ability is accurately described. The Enginseer is another option, he'd boost the squad Ld by a point and would add a power weapon + servo arm.

The Primaris battle psyker sounds really cool, If I can manage to drop some more infantry I will take a Primaris modeled as a Magos Electro Priest of the AdMech.

EDIT:
focusedfire,
I hope that in the end you can see that I have a reason for my bitterness. On top of that, these rumors have turned out to be rather grim from my perspective. I hope that the guard codex will be a good one, I'm sure no guard player would hope otherwise.

Actually, it looks like the Canoness with a bolt pistol and Blessed weapon might be the top dog in the "Ultimate Ogryn Squad Leader!" contest. For 76 points, you get five S5 power weapon attacks, rerolling misses. 2.5 dead marines per turn on the charge, AND she gives the squad Ld10.

Hm, 5 Ogryns on average kill 2.9 Marines on the charge, notwithstanding the ripper gun barrage (which adds 1.67 Marine casualties), so that's 5.4 statistical averagemarines dead on the charge. Not very impressive for 261 points, it must be said, but better than it could be.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

focusedfire wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

focusedfire wrote:I'll buy your storm troopers, chimeras, &LRBT ....negotiations start at .10 cents on the dollar

Oh, please. A tenth of a penny per dollar?

Hell, I'll pay tenfold what you offer: a whole penny per dollar and just resell everything at 10 cents on the dollar.

OK, ten cents on the dollar then. You stated the price and I accept your offer in written contract form.
Where are my Storm troopers and LRBTs?

I think you need to learn to read more carefully.

I was counter-bidding with a higher offer to pay 1.0% instead of 0.1%, and re-sell at 10%.

Now that you have formally accepted my offer, I believe it's incumbent upon you to send your stuff to me.

As I have a much higher post count, I believe standard convention is that you will send first.

I think the easiest thing would be for you to send 9% to me (I pay you 1%, you pay me 10%) and save yourself the shipping charges and delay.

Nice try but actually, My response clearly stated that I was accepting your offer to sell at 10 cents on the dollar, to which is why I referenced it first. Then after referencing your written offer to sell such storms and LRBT tanks that you find at a good price, I accepted your proposed online seeling price.

I will be awaiting your PM as to the exact retail value of your storm troopers and LRBT that you currently have in stock. At which time we will then determine the 10% of retail that you agreed to accept.

Agamemnon2 wrote:I hope the "Fists only on Commissar Lords" rumor is false

I had not heard that rumour, but consider that there are already two existing Commissar models with Power Fists. Are they about to invalidate two models, one that's quite new? And when you speak of that rumour, I assume you mean that the only fist a Commissar can get is on Commissar Lord, not fists in the whole army, because we know the fist is part of the Command Squad sprue.

You indeed deciphered my meaning correctly. Alas, we don't know enough at this juncture. It appears that the IG characters have their work cut out for them if they want to beat inquisitorial allies in the effectiveness race, though. For example, I'm pretty sure that no matter how good the Commissar Lord is, I'm going to get better mileage from my hypothetical Canoness there.

@Ph34r,

I mostly play Tau and Eldar, so I know about getting hit with the nerfcannon. The removal of effective units everytime a new book comes out.

I just don't let it get to me. If it really did I'd probably stop playing as to the fact that I'm just getting to long in the tooth for the constant blood pressure spike to be good for me.

I think the reason it doesn't get to me is that if I start winning all the time I lose interest. Its for that same reason that I like it when opposing armies get really good codices. Good not as in power-gamer, but good as in it allows for a variety of builds and tactics. Things that will help keep the game fresh and keep me guessing with very challenging matches.

It is for this reason and for my friends who play IG that I truly hope that the new Guard codex will be the same tier as the Orks, SMs, and other top armies.