Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

And every single codex somebody says this, or something like it.

And every codex I respond with the following, or something like it:

We live in a world were information is made immediate. We get it fast, we react fast. Nobody here is forming solid opinions on the book, on the list, on GW. We are commenting on the nature of something that is unformed. Codex rumors threads would be either very short, or very repetitive if we didn't comment, good or bad, on the nature of the rumors. How many variations of "Sounds cool, I can't wait to see the actual codex" can you read before perhaps you'd like some analysis.

Yup, and I react the same way every single time and so by your own logic, we are all still on the same merry go round.

Can't wait for the next dex, and the same arguments! God bless internet land.

H.B.M.C. wrote:People who like the Codex - Normal people.
People who have misgivings - Nerdraging whiners.

It's a double standard.

H.B.M.C. wrote:That's my issue. We're allowed to discuss the Codex it seems, but only if we love it with all of our bodies, even our peepees, and only if we want to have its children. But if we have something about it that we don't like, or are concerned about, well obviously we're nerdraging neckbeaded hamfisted whiners.

Obviously.

There's your fething double standard.

Dammit, H.B.M.C., can't you see your own frikkin' double-standard? You're assuming that folks that are trying to look on the bright side are fanboy GW sycophant ass-lickers.

I don't know if you're being sarcastic, but that's just it: we're not assuming people looking on the bright side are fanbois.

Dammit, H.B.M.C., can't you see your own frikkin' double-standard? You're assuming that folks that are trying to look on the bright side are fanboy GW sycophant ass-lickers

arn't they?

Ozymandias wrote: It looks to me like the new IG codex is going to have lots of new toys, has a solution (may not be your definition of an ideal solution but it is a solution) to the KP problem, and looks like it can be competitive with the big boys. Am I missing something here? Shouldn't we be happy that the IG will finally be a contender again? All I see is "No way Ogryns at 35 points are the suck!" and "ST's at 16 points?!! Are you fething on crack?!" while blatantly ignoring all of the good things that are coming out with this book. Now we see who has the fething double standard.

Focusing on overall strength in the meta-game is only one way to look at this. There are other views, such as:

-"Perfect balance is impossible, but GW should at least make a good-faith effort to balance units."
-"Units that have been crap for a decade (or longer!) probably deserve a chance to shine."
-"Broken units should be toned down, but good units should remain good, so as not to penalize veteran players."
-"It should be possible to build an army that is both competitive and fluffy."
-"I don't like any of these new-fangled flying machines, and want to win without having to deal with that tomfoolery."

Obviously, no one holds all these views simultaneously, but I have trouble saying any of these perspectives are categorically invalid. It's possible to like the new Codex overall, but not like sub-parts of it, and it's posible to like some parts of the new Codex, but not be impressed with the overall document.

I'm holding out until a PDF leaks to make a judgment on the Codex as a whole, but I think it's possible to be annoyed by aspects of these rumors.

Polonius wrote:I don't know if you're being sarcastic, but that's just it: we're not assuming people looking on the bright side are fanbois.

You may not, but H.B.M.C. certainly implied that he does:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Then you can't comprehend the English language. We're not ignoring the good things, we're just discussing (as Polonius said) the bad parts, and it seems that those of us who don't instantly lap up whatever GW has to offer are branded as nerdraging whiners whereas those who choose to simply ignore the bad things and pretend they don't exist (like you Ozzy) are normal, and not fanboyish in the slightest.

Hey personally I am looking foward to my 6 Russ army. Too bad its the dual lash of this dex. So much hope, so much promise, so many crushed dreams.....

Given the sheer amount of GW stuff (in general, IG in specific) that I (and others) own, I think we can be fairly classed as fanbois. I mean, the retail value of my Guard infantry alone is more than many armies. And I'm not alone here.

And I've played Guard since they only had the 3E Rulebook army list.

So, yeah, I think I've paid quite enough cash and dues as a fanboi to whine quite a bit when I'm not happy with where parts of my Guard army are going.
___

ed; sp

Death By Monkeys wrote:

Polonius wrote:I don't know if you're being sarcastic, but that's just it: we're not assuming people looking on the bright side are fanbois.

You may not, but H.B.M.C. certainly implied that he does:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Then you can't comprehend the English language. We're not ignoring the good things, we're just discussing (as Polonius said) the bad parts, and it seems that those of us who don't instantly lap up whatever GW has to offer are branded as nerdraging whiners whereas those who choose to simply ignore the bad things and pretend they don't exist (like you Ozzy) are normal, and not fanboyish in the slightest.

He's saying that if Ozy calls HBMC a hater, but does not call himself a fanboi, it's a double standard. HBMC isn't calling either party either label. He's implying that if he's a Hater, than by logic Ozy would than be a fanboi, but I think that again HBMC has allowed attitude to slightly cloud content. I'm assuming, and I could be wrong, is that both view points are totally valid and not due to some moral failing.

Pointing out the existence of a possible double standard does not, in itself, create that double standard.

I'm not saying you can't or you shouldn't! That's why we're here and not over on Warseer in the love-fest that is the 100+ pages of discussion on the IG codex.

Do you really want to know why there was so much "nerd rage" I ask you to look for the posts when we were assuming that all of the various tanks cost the same. (Russ body, cost the same as Russ body, Demolisher body cost the same as Demolisher body) You want to know what the general consensus was? The stock Russ was the best pick of the stock tanks and the plasma canon Russ was the best of the demolisher varients and probably work a 10-15 points more. We then see the costs and its like a kick in the nuts.

DD makes a good point.

I own 30 Russes for feth's sake!!! I've got 400 infantry, a further 25 other Guard vehicles, every Cadian model ever made and soon will have 10 Super-Heavies. Of course I'm a damned Guard fanboi. The presence of this Codex isn't going to stop me from using them or lessen them in my eyes.

But the Codex will be flawed. And discussing those flaws isn't a bad thing.

Death By Monkeys - I'm not implying that those who like the Codex are fanboys. I'm implying that those that ignore the bad things to the point where they pretend they don't exist, or those that think we should be somehow greatful for GW for this Codex, they're the sycophantic loons.

Polonius wrote:Pointing out the existence of a possible double standard does not, in itself, create that double standard.

Okay. LOL. You got me there. Point made and taken.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Given the sheer amount of GW stuff (in general, IG in specific) that I (and others) own, I think we can be fairly classed as fanbois. I mean, the retail value of my Guard infantry alone is more than many armies. And I'm not alone here.

And I've played Guard since they only had the 3E Rulebook army list.

So, yeah, I think I've paid quite enough cash and dues as a fanbody to whine quite a bit when I'm not happy with where parts of my Guard army are going.

Hell, I have 7500 points IG, all painted, all metal (except the tanks). I'm excited about this codex, and oddly, I'm excited about buying new units for my army that I can use outside of Apocalypse. I mean, I'm hoping stormtroopers actually rock, and that Ogryn are worth 35pts, that Commissars are good and that there will be more in my IG tourney armies than platoons and LRBTs. That doesn't mean I'm going to ignore what I see, which is... uneven.

H.B.M.C. wrote:DD makes a good point.

I own 30 Russes for feth's sake!!! I've got 400 infantry, a further 25 other Guard vehicles, every Cadian model ever made and soon will have 10 Super-Heavies. Of course I'm a damned Guard fanboi. The presence of this Codex isn't going to stop me from using them or lessen them in my eyes.

But the Codex will be flawed. And discussing those flaws isn't a bad thing.

Right, and I'm not arguing with that. See my previous post re: Warseer.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Death By Monkeys - I'm not implying that those who like the Codex are fanboys. I'm implying that those that ignore the bad things to the point where they pretend they don't exist, or those that think we should be somehow greatful for GW for this Codex, they're the sycophantic loons.

I'd say that the folks who ignore the bad things to the point where they pretend they don't exist aren't so much sycophantic as just uneducated and/or ignorant (unwillingly or willingly). Fanboy, yes, sycophantic - maybe, maybe not. (Sorry, is that worse than being sycophantic? I mean, someone can get themselves educated.)

Ozymandias wrote:

ph34r wrote:
I don't care that ogryns are still bad. I care that my army as it is, which contains a wide variety of infantry guardsmen and leman russ tanks as support, cannot fit into 2000 points any more. Not even close. Sorry, but special orders which may or may not be good (rapid fire vs lasguns only for double shoot order, whether or not the AT order will give +1 in addition to reroll, etc) do not make up for 15% of my army not making it to the field any more.

Please explain how a wide variety of infantry guardsmen (which decreased in points) and leman russ tanks (which went up very slightly) means that 15% of your force can't be used?

Sure, I'll explain for you!
My command squads all cost 20 points more: 60 points
My leman russes cost 30, 30, and 45 points more each
My (now abandoned) storm trooper squad increased 70 points
My infantry squads decreased 5 points each: -20 total
My two veteran squads will cost 55 points more each (though yes, they will each gain a few more useless bodies): 110 points
Two of my heavy weapons teams decrease by 20 each: -40
All the other units either don't change much so far as rumored or cancel each other out simply.
In the end an increase of just under 300 points, or 15%. This means about 15% of my force cannot be used.

focusedfire wrote:As to the question of stormtrooper pricing. If the same model was available with the same stats and special rules in an Eldar army how much would that model cost. It'd be more than 16 pts.

They would have more synergy with eldar then they do guard. They's never make it into the codex... assuming, and probably falsely, that GW conducts playtesting.

Gestalt wrote:

Gestalt wrote:
For Ogryns an allied WH Inquis(cheap) or Hero(ld9-10) with book of st lucius would be even better than a commissar who only has 1 wound. Though they are IC, keeping them within 6", in the chimera perhaps, would keep them around.

You forget the ability to take a LRC with this combo. That would make it an assault threat of 18", with 7 ogryn, 1 cannoness w/ powersword and book, and 1 priest to allow re-rolls on all attacks and swing an evicerator around. brutal.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:I think one issue I'm seeing with peoples reactions is that they want it all. Its not good enough that you can take a massive amount of infantry with new abilities; its not enough that we can choose to take 9 Leman Russes; its not enough we have valkyries... some people want it all and want it for cheap enough to all fit in one 2000 pt army. Some one said this before, this army is all about synergy, I hate that word but there it is. So there are things not to your liking. Am I going to have to redo my Grenadiers and do something with them, of course, but that's part of the game. Even if this codex isn't the greatest, it is a flavorful improvement.

I do not think that lowering the points cost of an infantry squad from 60 to 50pts plus upgrades is really the massive improvement you're calling it, nor am I convinced that the army's problems can be solved by throwing more bodies at it. For what it's worth, I never wanted to be able to field nine Leman Russes, I think the idea alone is absurd and unfeasible, and it takes well over 1500 points to even contemplate. I never wanted the Valkyrie, beautiful as it might be, because I do not feel a fast skimmer is an appropriate thing for IG to have.

That isn't what I said, is it; I didn't call it a massive improvement. I said "a massive amount of infantry with new abilities." As in they have abilities they previously didn't. I'm not claiming you personally wanted to take those things. I'm saying the new codex offers a lot of options and that you obviously can't take it all. I'm sorry you didn't get what you want.

Agamemnon2 wrote:What I wanted is simple. The Salamander, the Quad-Launcher, better mortars, maybe even off-table artillery support, a good solution to the Kill Points question, an end to the bickering about heavy weapon teams and a way to make Ogryns worth their points. These goals were met in various ways ranging from "almost" to "not at all".

I wanted the Sabre brought back to the space marines, that didn't happen, but I don't hold it against the marine codex. The salamander would have been cool, the quad launcher as well. Off table artillery is through the appropriate advisor. Kill points I think were handled in the most balanced way, its variable and flexible, with fair trade offs for having the oversized single KP units or tactically flexible squads. Ogryns we only know their point costs, we don't know their "worth". When you compare an ogryn to an average guardsmen and what it means to the average guardsmen to have that in their back pocket it may end up being worth the points; with all the tanks, who'll have time to try and insta-kill ogryns with anti-tank weapons.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:I think one issue I'm seeing with peoples reactions is that they want it all. Its not good enough that you can take a massive amount of infantry with new abilities; its not enough that we can choose to take 9 Leman Russes; its not enough we have valkyries... some people want it all and want it for cheap enough to all fit in one 2000 pt army.

Have you been reading this thread mythos? There are people who can't field their current army under the new points values, let alone any of the new stuff. It's not about 'wanting it all', it's about wanting something, but being unable to do it because the costs have gone up so much (or, enough that any savings from things going down is completely lost). Ogryns and Storm Troopers are a joke at those costs. Commissars are still overpriced. Most of the tanks are overpriced (especially the Vanq and Punisher). The sponson costs sound astronomical.

Yep. Do you read my posts? I admit to being one of the people who can't field their current army, but its an aspect of the hobby, keeps us from getting too stuck in our ways of only playing the game one way and keeps it all interesting and varied.

Point savings versus point increases can only be looked at in the way you're insisting if all things are equal, but they aren't. These units have different stats, rules, and points and are written for a different edition of the game, all things are not equal to make the sort of direct comparison you insist on. Ogryns and Stormtroopers are more expensive, as are most elite units in almost every redone army. Its a general re-emphasis of the game on to the troop component of the armies. I believe our army while in general is more expensive is also more lethal.

The costs of sponsons are because we can now shoot everything, we can shoot on the move. I would think those things would effect the cost in an upward direction. I would love to see the mathhammer that calculates the increased lethality of shoot everything every turn off of a leman russ. I see most of them as being proportionately equal in cost to their increased lethality. I do believe that the price of the different variants are a little off, but only to marginal degrees that constitute no more than 5% percent of their total cost. Not knowing all the details we don't know if that cost is coming from something else. I think the Punisher is the only tank truly off the ball, but I can say why. The psychology of writing a unit with Heavy 20 insists that the writer price it based on its potential lethality over pricing based on its average lethality.

H.B.M.C. wrote:And this is just absurd:

aka_mythos wrote:As to the question of stormtrooper pricing. If the same model was available with the same stats and special rules in an Eldar army how much would that model cost. It'd be more than 16 pts.

If you took Marines and put them in Eldar, would they suddenly jump in cost? No. They're not suddenly more effective or better. They might be better than other choices in that Codex, but that doesn't mean their price should go up. They're still worth what they're worth.
BS4 WS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld8 Sv4+ model with a Strength 3 gun, Deep Strike and Infiltrate taking up an Elite Slot is 10 points per model. The AP3 is almost meaningless in a 5th Ed context and not the be-all/end-all and they lost 6" of range (making their targeters all the more useless). They're certainly not worth +6 points over their current cost.
BYE

Umm I didn't say that focusedfire did. Go check!

The targeter works differently now, allows re-rolls of some sort, which is better than measuring distance. They also have their three missions which have further affects on the squad; move through cover or outflank or airial assault (if with Valk).
I wouldn't call AP3 "almost meanignless" either. Of all the armies I play marines end up using cover least. Next is the fact that in using their advantage of asymmetric tactics they can deploy to places where they can take advantage of their AP3 advantage. They have and an ability and means to maximize its use.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
I'm not. My Grenadiers are becoming ISTs.
Ogryns went from 25 pts each to 35 pts each - a 30+% cost increase. For those kinds of points, I'd rather take GKTs or a DH with Eversor. Anything else, really, as I don't believe Ogryns are playable at all at their currently-rumored points costs.
Chimeras aren't horrible, but they are somewhat overcosted. Valks are definitely overcosted, but at least they look cool.
I don't think Guard are going to be as powerful as current Drop Troops builds. Also, Russ squadrons are kind of iffy - they'll have to dump all firepower at the same target. Not nearly as good as Basilisks which held cost.

My grenadiers are going to be Veterans with carapace.
We don't know all the details on Ogryns, they may well be worth 35pts. I'm just saying a wait smidgen before passing condemnation.
Chimeras worked for me before at 90+ points, at any number of point less if they work equally well, its free points.
I never really thought drop troops should have been a part of the IG, it diluted the value of stormtroopers and blurred a degree of distinctive value of marines over IG.
Valks, I think are about right, especially looking at their weapons and abilities. Its a unique asset to the imperial guard.
We don't know all the rules for LR squadrons yet. In particular the tank squad commander. Once again reserve judgment.
If it weren't for the fact you start to run out of places to tuck away 9 Basilisks that would have been an easy list.

Neil wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:
As to the question of stormtrooper pricing. If the same model was available with the same stats and special rules in an Eldar army how much would that model cost. It'd be more than 16 pts.

Eldar get freaking Fire Dragons for 16 points each.

YOu shouldn't misquote me that was FOCUSEDFIRE!!! PAGE 4, FIFTH POST DOWN! GAWD even John got it right.

I think I am going to run 3 executioners w/ plaz sponsons and 3 punishers w/ HB sponsons. both in squadrons if the tank commander allows you to split fire. Sure it costs a helluva lot o' points (13-1400 was it?) but the wall of AV14 DOOM will eat anything alive. anything. 15 plasmacannon shots and 87 str 5 shots?! What will stand against that?

Kungfuhustler wrote:I think I am going to run 3 executioners w/ plaz sponsons and 3 punishers w/ HB sponsons. both in squadrons if the tank commander allows you to split fire.

Oh God what a horrid thought. If the Russ Squadrons really do all have to fire at the same target (meaning that no one will take Russ Squadrons - they'll take single Russes like we take single Land Speeders now), then a special character the negates that will instantly become Guard's first Mandatory Non-Special Special Character, the Eldrad of the Guard, so to speak.

Kungfuhustler put those evil evil thoughts back into whatever dark corner of your mind you pulled them from!!!



BYE

Well I am still very much looking forward to this codex

Even if many things are over priced, I think it will still be a lot of fun on the board.



It looks like Vets+Carapace will replace the roll that we currently use ST/IST for and that ST are becoming a more "specialized" unit. Until we get a few months with the new codex, we will not have a good idea of how they work in game. Perhaps a Squad of ST in a Chimera will be a nice rapid fire surprise for any would be assaulters... Perhaps Ogyrns will actually stop a uber CC unit from ripping through our firebase? That might be worth the points.

My point is that these new units/points must be tried out in game before we can really decide if they're worth it or not.

I'm looking forward to this codex. My three griffons will finally be used in games again (three indirect firing pie plates for 225 points, yes please!)

The psychic chorus looks amazing, if the rumored 60 points for a minimum squad is true. If it is, you can extrapolate that it would be around 120 for a full chorus, that can hide in cover while dropping str. 9 pies. Their other ability to deny ld points could be useful too, especially in conjunction with sniper and mortar fire.

Usakar Kreed could be as mandatory as Eldrad if the rumors are true, if the points are low enough, four orders are too good to pass up.

I see the ordnance and astropath advisers being near mandatory, because who doesn't want to delay enemy reserves and have a basilisk in a flak jacket.

I'm also intrested to see how the change in points to 5 points in grenade launchers will effect the army. They may be useful for once.

I am disappointed by the lack of a good kill point solution, but you can't have everything.

I also think that 16 points for stormies is way too much.

Can I induct IST at 10 pts, and reference their hellguns to the AP3 ones in the new codex...??

ChaseMacKenzie wrote:Can I induct IST at 10 pts, and reference their hellguns to the AP3 ones in the new codex...??

No more than a Dark Angel player can claim a 3+(I) save on his Storm Shield, or a Chaos player can claim 12 people fit in his Land Raiders.

In other words - no. You can't.

Welcome to 5th Ed.

I don't quite understand why 35 is too many points for Ogryns. . . . It seems like that much T and W and FNP alone (soaking up so much injury) would be worth 35 pts even without the damage they'll do.

If they have FNP it's a very different story. Shrugging off fully half of what you throw at them (and then add in 3 wounds) and its a big difference. Ogryn don't need to kill things, they just need to avoid being killed. T5 does that. T5 makes them worth their 25 points, but not 35 points. FNP make them worth more than 25 points though - maybe not 35 (350+ for a full unit is a hell of an ask) - but 25 seems really good for a model that you need S10 to kill and who will shrug off 50% of all S9 and below hits.

If they have FNP that is. And that's a big if.

I'm thinking that the Leman Russ Punisher will be the death of horde players, and will prove all the more deadly against fragile gunlines like Tau. *If* you were fanatical enough to use 9 Punishers, that's 180 S5 shots a turn. Not even assault termies are going to stand up to that many shots.

I'd rather take the Eradicator. It ignores Armour Saves all the way up to 4+ and ignores all cover saves. Far more dangerous against Hordes.

BYE

Kungfuhustler wrote:I think I am going to run 3 executioners w/ plaz sponsons and 3 punishers w/ HB sponsons. both in squadrons if the tank commander allows you to split fire. Sure it costs a helluva lot o' points (13-1400 was it?) but the wall of AV14 DOOM will eat anything alive. anything. 15 plasmacannon shots and 87 str 5 shots?! What will stand against that?

One nob biker with a powerklaw getting into one tank in either squadron stands a decent chance. Getting 2 or 3 in is probably a certainty.

Im pretty sure Ogryn do not have FNP, they have furious charge and stubborn. In fact as far as I can tell FNP was never in a leak, just someone said they wanted to do FNP OR T5. Who knows what the Ogryn special character has too.