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And also, HW squads can stil get orders, but they just need to be clumped around the command squad. 6" from platoon command or 12" from company command.

Augustus wrote:Weaknesses like impotency in close combat

Charge my 50 point squad, win, get rapid fired, charge my 50 point squad, win get rapid fired.

Augustus wrote:poor ability to take objectives

I don't really see that. I tend to block far away objectives and score the close ones. use russes/hellhounds/valkyries to block. Use 55 point chimeras to score.

Augustus wrote:low staying power

Huh? 2+ cover save not good enough for you? Stubborn, possibly with a re-roll? effective transports to wall off or blunt CC? 54 heavy bolters and 6x battle cannons in a standard army to dissuade assaulters?

Augustus wrote:signifcant morale issues

Small cheap units running off the board isn't my concern, my army will be around 75% vehicles. They're fearless right?

Augustus wrote:all around and tank vulnerability to assault

Unless you screen your tanks with 50 point units of guardsmen. They are tall enough to see over them. You get to shoot, then they get to charge a screen, then you get to shoot, then they get to charge the next screen.

Augustus wrote:complete KP absurdity?

Nope, thats fixed. If anyone tries to claim a KP disadvantage after the officers lose IC status and your platoons can be combined into one or two units, they'll just be a bad carpenter blaming their tools. In KP missions, you don't have to move, and once you eliminate your opponents anti-tank, you can scratch a significant number of units off of your KP list. I can't wait to roll annihilation with my new IG list.

Augustus wrote:I admire your zeal sir, but even with all these potentially confirmed new units and abilities I'm not convinced the IG will be any better at all. I predict they still will be swept off the field in many games, remain challenged at taking ground, get embarassed in almost every assault and generally remain at the bottom of the pile.

Thanks, I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm happy to get embarassed in each and every assault. It just lets me shoot more. Swept off the field? How are my 7 tanks that are screened by infantry going to be "swept off the field"? Castling up on an objective in capture and control and just raining ordnance down on troop choices will probably be one of the easiest ways to win a mission, and vehicle objective blocking from one of our two fast vehicles choices (that can be taken in squads of 3) I'm not afraid of objectives.

Gotta go, more later

aka_mythos wrote:I think one issue I'm seeing with peoples reactions is that they want it all. Its not good enough that you can take a massive amount of infantry with new abilities; its not enough that we can choose to take 9 Leman Russes; its not enough we have valkyries... some people want it all and want it for cheap enough to all fit in one 2000 pt army. Some one said this before, this army is all about synergy, I hate that word but there it is. So there are things not to your liking. Am I going to have to redo my Grenadiers and do something with them, of course, but that's part of the game. Even if this codex isn't the greatest, it is a flavorful improvement.

I do not think that lowering the points cost of an infantry squad from 60 to 50pts plus upgrades is really the massive improvement you're calling it, nor am I convinced that the army's problems can be solved by throwing more bodies at it. For what it's worth, I never wanted to be able to field nine Leman Russes, I think the idea alone is absurd and unfeasible, and it takes well over 1500 points to even contemplate. I never wanted the Valkyrie, beautiful as it might be, because I do not feel a fast skimmer is an appropriate thing for IG to have.

What I wanted is simple. The Salamander, the Quad-Launcher, better mortars, maybe even off-table artillery support, a good solution to the Kill Points question, an end to the bickering about heavy weapon teams and a way to make Ogryns worth their points. These goals were met in various ways ranging from "almost" to "not at all".

@ shep, OK I see your points.

I played to many IG games in 5th, (as IG) where multiple asaults and inability to move and score has killed them to be easily convinced. I didn't undertsand the KP combine thing, that seems like a major improvement.

Here's to hoping you have it all right!

As to the question of stormtrooper pricing. If the same model was available with the same stats and special rules in an Eldar army how much would that model cost. It'd be more than 16 pts.

I'm not saying that you'll be spamming them. Just that they may be like that one deep-striking fusion squad that always seems to show up in a Tau Meq list. Having that one unit is going to be very nifty.



IMHO,The Tanks are mostly going to be LRBT in 40K. I really believe that a lot of the other Tanks are designed or re-designed and intended for larger apoc games. It has never made much sense for a basilisk type artillery to be on a regular sized board.

As to weapon load-out on the LeMan Russes. I see a lot of hull mount lascannons,pintle storm bolters, but no sponsons. Also see a lot of command exterminators.

I think the FA tanks may show up but as a single squadron of 2 whatevers. I'm seeing a lot of possibility to actually field competitive theme armies. But all of this is guessing as I haven't seen the codex yet.

Gestalt wrote:Remaining things to confirm:
1. Hvy weapon squads, 3 heavy weapon teams or 3 teams and 4 guard. If 3 teams they cant get a vox.
2. Is Lumbering fire Turret and all weapons or Turret and then as normal (1 if move, all if stationary)
3. What squads can merge, all in a platoon, only infantry squads, command squads?
4. What does the Tank character do thats worth 50 points? (BS4 isnt worth that)
5. Are upgrades like improves comms, regimental standard, honorifica still around?

And also, HW squads can stil get orders, but they just need to be clumped around the command squad. 6" from platoon command or 12" from company command.

This is the first I heard of a range on orders like this, and vox lets you reroll the test to take the order. Is this from the codex or rumor?

For Ogryns an allied WH Inquis(cheap) or Hero(ld9-10) with book of st lucius would be even better than a commissar who only has 1 wound. Though they are IC, keeping them within 6", in the chimera perhaps, would keep them around.

Don't forget also, Squads of tanks = 1 KP so 2x Leman Russ as 1 Heavy only gives up 1KP instead of 2

Shep wrote:So you aren't interested in adding more than 3 leman russes to your army? Or any valkyries? Or any of the new artillery pieces? New ratlings? New psyker? Armor 12 sentinels? Was GW going to be able to please you no matter what it did? I'm an apocalypse fanboy, so I already have a tank company and 3 bassies painted. But I've already been buying manticores, executioners, and chimeras, and will be buying the advisors, and a bunch of sentinels for starters, and will probably go on a run where i buy an obscene number of valks and stormtroopers, ogryns ratlings, psykers and tech-people once I've got my tourney list built and painted. Looks like I'll be spending enough for the both of us.

Well that's just great for you. I hear that you can even play lost and the damned in apocalypse, and Iron Warriors can have 4 heavy support choices and as many obliterators as they want! Oh, and imperial guard armies can take carnifexes and eldar can take sternguard. You have fun playing apocalypse, I will be over here playing Warhammer 40,000. If GW is able to make you happy by including a million different options in the new codex that are all so bad that they would only be played in apocalypse, then that's just fantastic. For you. I have to fit my army in 2000 points, and apparently I can't do that any more even without adding more units. So no, I AM interested in adding leman russes, and artillery, and psykers, and sentinels. Unfortunately GW does not want me to be able to have these in my army.

Shep wrote:As far as I can tell, Robin has removed the vast majority of obstacles that stood in my guard armies way. My inability to tangle with top tier lists has evaporated. I've got the firepower I need, coupled with reasonable transports to spoil assaults, and enough of a KP fix to tune something competitive for this years GT circuit. I'm happy. When I'm not playing tourney style, I have tons of fun toys and combos to play with (many of them brand new).

The thing is, I would love to use fun toys and combos. Unfortunately 16 point storm troopers that can't do anything except kill spess marehns just as well as marines kill them, at a greater cost, at close range, and not in close combat. And for an elite choice. That's not fun, it's just stupid.
Chimeras do look good. I would be very excited about them if I used them in my army. Unfortunately it goes against my theme pretty hard.
I can't wait to see how the IG KP "fix" works out, with our 50 man strong "solutions" being charged on turn 1/2 and tied up for the rest of the game by pretty much anything.

aka_mythos wrote:I think one issue I'm seeing with peoples reactions is that they want it all. Its not good enough that you can take a massive amount of infantry with new abilities; its not enough that we can choose to take 9 Leman Russes; its not enough we have valkyries... some people want it all and want it for cheap enough to all fit in one 2000 pt army. Some one said this before, this army is all about synergy, I hate that word but there it is. So there are things not to your liking. Am I going to have to redo my Grenadiers and do something with them, of course, but that's part of the game. Even if this codex isn't the greatest, it is a flavorful improvement.

I agree that this codex is a flavorful improvement. We are getting so many new cool options, it's almost overwhelming. If points were not an issue in 40k then I would be very happy indeed. Unfortunately many of these cool new units are just too bad to make it to the table, and some old units have been nerfed into the dirt (storm troopers, veterans, hellhounds).
I don't care if this codex is the greatest, I just don't want it to be the worst, and I certainly don't want it to be worse than the current codex, because as it is IG has enough problems.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

focusedfire wrote:I'll buy your storm troopers, chimeras, &LRBT ....negotiations start at .10 cents on the dollar

Oh, please. A tenth of a penny per dollar?

Hell, I'll pay tenfold what you offer: a whole penny per dollar and just resell everything at 10 cents on the dollar.

OK, ten cents on the dollar then. You stated the price and I accept your offer in written contract form.
Where are my Storm troopers and LRBTs?

Same offer goes to you Ph34r. You seem to think its hopless. want to sell now?

focusedfire wrote:Same offer goes to you Ph34r. You seem to think its hopless. want to sell now?

If I sold every army that GW made non-existent or horrible... I would have zero armies.

aka_mythos wrote:I think one issue I'm seeing with peoples reactions is that they want it all. Its not good enough that you can take a massive amount of infantry with new abilities; its not enough that we can choose to take 9 Leman Russes; its not enough we have valkyries... some people want it all and want it for cheap enough to all fit in one 2000 pt army.

Have you been reading this thread mythos? There are people who can't field their current army under the new points values, let alone any of the new stuff. It's not about 'wanting it all', it's about wanting something, but being unable to do it because the costs have gone up so much (or, enough that any savings from things going down is completely lost). Ogryns and Storm Troopers are a joke at those costs. Commissars are still overpriced. Most of the tanks are overpriced (especially the Vanq and Punisher). The sponson costs sound astronomical.

Yes, at the end of the day we don't know anything for sure, but based on what we've been told, Guard have become a more expensive army if you want to field anything besides Infantry Squads.

If we assume 170 per Storm Trooper Squad (160+mandatory Vet Sergeant), plus 30 for Plasma Guns (), and then basic Valk, you're looking at 300 points for a unit that takes up two slots, and is mostly T3 Sv4+ with a S3 gun. How is that at all worthwhile?

And this is just absurd:

aka_mythos wrote:As to the question of stormtrooper pricing. If the same model was available with the same stats and special rules in an Eldar army how much would that model cost. It'd be more than 16 pts.

If you took Marines and put them in Eldar, would they suddenly jump in cost? No. They're not suddenly more effective or better. They might be better than other choices in that Codex, but that doesn't mean their price should go up. They're still worth what they're worth.

BS4 WS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld8 Sv4+ model with a Strength 3 gun, Deep Strike and Infiltrate taking up an Elite Slot is 10 points per model. The AP3 is almost meaningless in a 5th Ed context and not the be-all/end-all and they lost 6" of range (making their targeters all the more useless). They're certainly not worth +6 points over their current cost.

BYE

Vladsimpaler wrote:

ph34r wrote:There is a silver lining to the new codex...
At first I thought that I would have to purchase 2-3 more infantry boxes, a command squad, a few commissars, the advisor box, some psykers, a leman russ and a forgeworld turret for it, 3 sentinels, 3 boxes of vostroyans for vets and 3 chimeras to go along with them, and to top it all off some servitors for my enginseers. With the initial rumored costs for everything, I could have fit almost all this in my army list with minimal shuffling.
Now, however, I do not even have points room for the models in the army I use now. This means that I will not be spending any money, and if the IG codex is bad enough I might not even buy that!
Thanks, GW!

Join the club, my good friend. This codex is going to be absolutely terrible. Hmm, 350 points for a squad of 10 Ogryns. Our codex writer must have several brain tumors. Idiot.

P.S. Could we have a list of all the point costs that have been rumored?

God I didn't think the bitching could get worse but thanks for proving me wrong. "Oh noes, Ogryns are expensive!!" Yeah cause they were so fething useful in the last codex as well. Jesus H. Christ you'd think GW gave you your dead hamster* for Christmas instead of a new IG codex with lots of new toys to play with.

As someone who had put their IG army on hold till the new codex I am ecstatic at the rumors. You mean I'll get to take lots of tanks, have cheaper troops, and not auto-lose KP missions? feth yeah! Plus I get a 12/12/10 Fast Skimmer for Contesting/Capturing objectives so I actually have some maneuverability.

You whiners need to step back, take a breathe, and stop bitching over "insert pet rule/unit here" not being exactly the way you wanted it. Seriously, get over yourselves.


*blatantly stolen from some British dude.

/rant

aka_mythos wrote:I think one issue I'm seeing with peoples reactions is that they want it all

this army is all about synergy,

I going to have to redo my Grenadiers

Close combat, is suppose to be a general weakenss, but the issue has been mitigated by improvements to Ogryn and Roughriders.

Well now we can take many chimeras and valkyries to carry troops to seize objectives,

we have a troop choice with an optional 4+ armor save,

I wanted cheaper (45-pt squad) Guard with more Platoon options (camo, Carapace, etc.), cheaper (20-pt) and survivable (T5) Ogryns, along with competitively-priced (45-pt) and armored (AV12/11/10) Chimeras and non-stupid (10-pt) Plasma. Didn't really happen, though the Infantry isn't horrible.

IMO, it's like C: SM - strong Troops (Platoon v. Tacticals), decent support (static shooting / Scout Sentinels / Ordnance v. Sternguard / Transport), mediocre alternatives.

I'm not. My Grenadiers are becoming ISTs.

Ogryns went from 25 pts each to 35 pts each - a 30+% cost increase. For those kinds of points, I'd rather take GKTs or a DH with Eversor. Anything else, really, as I don't believe Ogryns are playable at all at their currently-rumored points costs.

Chimeras aren't horrible, but they are somewhat overcosted. Valks are definitely overcosted, but at least they look cool.

I don't think Guard are going to be as powerful as current Drop Troops builds. Also, Russ squadrons are kind of iffy - they'll have to dump all firepower at the same target. Not nearly as good as Basilisks which held cost.

aka_mythos wrote:
As to the question of stormtrooper pricing. If the same model was available with the same stats and special rules in an Eldar army how much would that model cost. It'd be more than 16 pts.

Eldar get freaking Fire Dragons for 16 points each.

Man, I think I have seen more nerdrage (from myself included) with regard to this codex than with just about anything else GW has done in recent memory. (Well, maybe not as much as LatD...)

Ozymandias wrote:God I didn't think the bitching could get worse but thanks for proving me wrong. "Oh noes, Ogryns are expensive!!" Yeah cause they were so fething useful in the last codex as well. Jesus H. Christ you'd think GW gave you your dead hamster* for Christmas instead of a new IG codex with lots of new toys to play with.

As someone who had put their IG army on hold till the new codex I am ecstatic at the rumors.

I don't care that ogryns are still bad. I care that my army as it is, which contains a wide variety of infantry guardsmen and leman russ tanks as support, cannot fit into 2000 points any more. Not even close. Sorry, but special orders which may or may not be good (rapid fire vs lasguns only for double shoot order, whether or not the AT order will give +1 in addition to reroll, etc) do not make up for 15% of my army not making it to the field any more.

well, the messed up thing is that certain parts of the IG codex have been pants for a decade. Ogryn, Storm troopers, and commissars have been bad to awful forever. Normally, GW would pull a pendulum and make them awesome, not arguably make them worse.

IG players don't ask for much: just a normal codex like everybody else, that can play and win games and has more than one half decent build.

And your suggested alternative would be what DBM?

That we all happily suck at the teat of whatever GW puts out like a bunch of good little sycophants? Or perhaps people who are happy with the changes are allowed to express how much they love them, but those that aren't should stop right now because dissatisfaction is obviously just "nerdrage" and nothing legitimate.

Enough with the fething double standard.

People who like it can say they like it, and they're fine normal people, not sycophantic fanboys at all, but those that don't are branded whiners, neckbeards and people suffering from 'nerdrage'.

So, again, DBM, what would your suggested alternatives be?


I mean when myself, Aggy, DD and Shummy all come down on (roughly) the same side in a discussion, shouldn't that tell you something? All we need now is MIA GW sycophant Toreador to come in here claiming the end is nigh and we'll have a general Dakka consensus on the issue.

BYE

focusedfire wrote:As to the question of stormtrooper pricing. If the same model was available with the same stats and special rules in an Eldar army how much would that model cost. It'd be more than 16 pts.

As a long-time Eldar player, I'll comment on this.

Eldar model BS3(4) WS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 with a 18" S3 AP3 Assault 2 gun and Sv4+?

He looks like a Guardian with a better gun and armor - kind of like what a Black Guardian should be. Cost-wise Guardians are cheaper than any other model, so they are artificially overpriced at 8 pts, but only worth 6 pts base with a 12" S4 AP5 A2 Shuricat. With the gun swap and BS4 and he's worth 7 or 8 pts (S4 easily better than S3, but BS4 AP3 and 18" range is better than the Shuricat). The Armor upgrade is worth a point, so he's worth 8 or 9 pts all told, after factoring for Deep Strike and Infiltrate - Guardsmen get owned in HtH, so DS and Infiltrate aren't very useful. All told, 9 pts in an Eldar army.

For 16 pts, I'd compare him with a Scorpion, Banshee, and Fire Dragon. I'm very partial to A3+ Sv3+ Scorpions, and I don't think that a Stormtrooper model is that good. If you talk about close-in gunners, Fire Dragons easily own Stormtroopers in terms of core utility. Massed Meltas are always useful.

ph34r wrote:
I don't care that ogryns are still bad. I care that my army as it is, which contains a wide variety of infantry guardsmen and leman russ tanks as support, cannot fit into 2000 points any more. Not even close. Sorry, but special orders which may or may not be good (rapid fire vs lasguns only for double shoot order, whether or not the AT order will give +1 in addition to reroll, etc) do not make up for 15% of my army not making it to the field any more.

Please explain how a wide variety of infantry guardsmen (which decreased in points) and leman russ tanks (which went up very slightly) means that 15% of your force can't be used?

If you play a ST heavy army (incredibly niche as probably 99% of IG players don't play a ST heavy force) then yes, your points did go up. You did gain AP3 Hellguns and lots and lots of new toys, but frankly you are saying that the entire codex is crap because your one build no longer works the same as it did before.

I really don't know what to say to that.

I went through 2,000 point army (summarised below) I field and appied the rumoured points costs. Good news is my army was about 100 points cheaper, bad news is all the savings were from doctrines I could no longer take.

HQ Squad
Heavy Bolter Squad
Yarrick

4 Squad Platoon (mostly Las-Plas) x2

Hellhound x2

Demolisher x2
Griffon

Doctrines: Sharp Shooters, Iron Disipline, Close Order Drill, Drop Troops

I dare not look at my Grenadier & Carapace armour list.

[edit]

Ozymandias wrote:If you play a ST heavy army (incredibly niche as probably 99% of IG players don't play a ST heavy force) then yes, your points did go up. You did gain AP3 Hellguns and lots and lots of new toys, but frankly you are saying that the entire codex is crap because your one build no longer works the same as it did before.

I really don't know what to say to that.

How about "I'm always saddened to hear when someone's army, into which they have poured so much time and love, is invalidated in a stroke by Games Workshop's slowed pendulum swing codex design. I respectfully hope that you can come up with a solution that works for you and doesn't force you to buy or change too much new stuff just to keep up with the game."

Good point HBMC. Apparently if your comments about these rumours is anything short "I want to build 5 different IG armies and play them all the time" you're nerd raging.

I also don't really see much raging... just discussion. I don't think that pointing out things like: Stormtroopers cost the same as Fire Dragons and Demolishers will cost roughly a loaded Falcon are angry, bitter comments. They're pointing out simple facts.


On the other hand, I'm not really that sympathetic to complaints about individual lists or army builds. Every army gets a shake up, and things that were good or even legal in one book fade out in the next.

Polonius wrote:
IG players don't ask for much: just a normal codex like everybody else, that can play and win games and has more than one half decent build.

It looks like we're going to get that with this new codex.

H.B.M.C. wrote:And your suggested alternative would be what DBM?

That we all happily suck at the teat of whatever GW puts out like a bunch of good little sycophants? Or perhaps people who are happy with the changes are allowed to express how much they love them, but those that aren't should stop right now because dissatisfaction is obviously just "nerdrage" and nothing legitimate.

Enough with the fething double standard.

People who like it can say they like it, and they're fine normal people, not sycophantic fanboys at all, but those that don't are branded whiners, neckbeards and people suffering from 'nerdrage'.

So, again, DBM, what would your suggested alternatives be?


I mean when myself, Aggy, DD and Shummy all come down on (roughly) the same side in a discussion, shouldn't that tell you something? All we need now is MIA GW sycophant Toreador to come in here claiming the end is nigh and we'll have a general Dakka consensus on the issue.

BYE

I don't even know how to respond to this. What were you looking for HBMC? It looks to me like the new IG codex is going to have lots of new toys, has a solution (may not be your definition of an ideal solution but it is a solution) to the KP problem, and looks like it can be competitive with the big boys. Am I missing something here? Shouldn't we be happy that the IG will finally be a contender again? All I see is "No way Ogryns at 35 points are the suck!" and "ST's at 16 points?!! Are you fething on crack?!" while blatantly ignoring all of the good things that are coming out with this book. Now we see who has the fething double standard.

I can't fething wait to field 6 leman russes and watch my opponent squirm as I blow massive holes in his army. Meanwhile, y'all still be bitching about 35 point Ogryns or whatever the hatred of the month is.

focusedfire wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

focusedfire wrote:I'll buy your storm troopers, chimeras, &LRBT ....negotiations start at .10 cents on the dollar

Oh, please. A tenth of a penny per dollar?

Hell, I'll pay tenfold what you offer: a whole penny per dollar and just resell everything at 10 cents on the dollar.

OK, ten cents on the dollar then. You stated the price and I accept your offer in written contract form.
Where are my Storm troopers and LRBTs?

I think you need to learn to read more carefully.

I was counter-bidding with a higher offer to pay 1.0% instead of 0.1%, and re-sell at 10%.

Now that you have formally accepted my offer, I believe it's incumbent upon you to send your stuff to me.

As I have a much higher post count, I believe standard convention is that you will send first.

I think the easiest thing would be for you to send 9% to me (I pay you 1%, you pay me 10%) and save yourself the shipping charges and delay.

Ozymandias wrote:I can't fething wait to field 6 leman russes and watch my opponent squirm as I blow massive holes in his army.

You'll blow holes in two targets per turn (3 Russes per squadron). Depending on the targets (Land Raiders, Terminators), he might not care that you spent 1000+ pts this way.

Ozymandias wrote:
I don't even know how to respond to this. What were you looking for HBMC? It looks to me like the new IG codex is going to have lots of new toys, has a solution (may not be your definition of an ideal solution but it is a solution) to the KP problem, and looks like it can be competitive with the big boys. Am I missing something here? Shouldn't we be happy that the IG will finally be a contender again? All I see is "No way Ogryns at 35 points are the suck!" and "ST's at 16 points?!! Are you fething on crack?!" while blatantly ignoring all of the good things that are coming out with this book. Now we see who has the fething double standard.

I can't fething wait to field 6 leman russes and watch my opponent squirm as I blow massive holes in his army. Meanwhile, y'all still be bitching about 35 point Ogryns or whatever the hatred of the month is.

I can't speak for HBMC, but I think my problem with your view is that we're somehow supposed to be grateful that GW is dropping a new codex, and be so excited that a perennially weak tea force might be half decent that we ignore staggeringly bad units? Would it help if for every negative comment, we all posted long and eloquently about how gracious we are that GW has blessed us with infantry platoons that don't' immediately kill us in KP missions?

First off, we don't know that IG is a contender yet. We still don't have perfect info, making any strong opinions pro or con ephemeral.

Second, it doesn't take a tenured mathematician to realize that absent rules that are Harlequin level good, 16pt stormtroopers are going to be lousy.

Third, I don't think we should simply be happy with a codex that's decent. I think GW should make rules that aren't outright insulting to anybody with any sense.

Finally, I simply detest the form of moral superiority that seems to indicate that all negativity is somehow evil, or wrong. When you stop calling a spade a shovel, you have to wonder what else you're ignoring.

Every.

Single.

Codex.

People get their panties in a bunch when the rumors come out and run around like chicken little, crying about the sky falling.

Chill out for crying out loud, we don't even have it yet! Everyone thought the new Marines would be unstopable and that every person in GW was a moron. Well looky looky, the marine codex is fun, turning out to be pretty competetive and has a ton of variety. Win.

So just relax until not only we have the dex but we have a chance to play it and go over the various builds. You may be pleasantly surprised.

I choose to remain optimistic and not cry and gnash my teeth before I have even seen the final product.

And look at the birght side, at the very least, we will still have a lot more tanks to play with!

Ozymandias wrote:I don't even know how to respond to this.

And yet you still did...

Ozymandias wrote:What were you looking for HBMC?

Platic Valkyries and a fun Codex. I'm sure we'll get that, and as I've said right from the start, like the recent Marine 'Dex, I'm really looking forward to this Codex. And, like the recent Marine 'Dex, I'm sure I'll really like it. However, just like the recent Marine 'Dex, I'm sure it will have some major flaws and items that I take extreme issue with.

Ozymandias wrote:It looks to me like the new IG codex is going to have lots of new toys

That you won't be able to afford assuming the price costs are correct. People are making valid points - Ogryn, Stormies and Commissars have been utter junk ever since 3rd Ed came about, and this Codex does nothing to help them. At all.

Ozymandias wrote:has a solution (may not be your definition of an ideal solution but it is a solution) to the KP problem,

I actually like the squad combining as long as it's up the player to choose which squads are combined (ie. I have 5 squads in this platoon and I want to combine two of them and leave the other three separate) rather than you either have 5 separate squdas or 1 super-squad. If the squad combining is done on a squad by squad basis, rather than lumping all squads within a platoon into an amorphus blob, then what we have is a healthy middle ground on the KP's - GW will have avoided an all or nothing solution, something they don't do often, and that's a good thing!!!

Ozymandias wrote:and looks like it can be competitive with the big boys.

None of us can make that call yet, not until we've seen the Codex. What we have seen so far is a fun Codex with lots of overcosted units (Stormies, Ogryn, Commissars, Vanquishers, Punishers, Chimeras (to a point), Valks (to a point), Executioners (arguably)).

Ozymandias wrote:Am I missing something here?

Something considerable, yes.

People who like the Codex - Normal people.
People who have misgivings - Nerdraging whiners.

It's a double standard.

Ozymandias wrote:All I see is "No way Ogryns at 35 points are the suck!" and "ST's at 16 points?!! Are you fething on crack?!" while blatantly ignoring all of the good things that are coming out with this book.

Then you can't comprehend the English language. We're not ignoring the good things, we're just discussing (as Polonius said) the bad parts, and it seems that those of us who don't instantly lap up whatever GW has to offer are branded as nerdraging whiners whereas those who choose to simply ignore the bad things and pretend they don't exist (like you Ozzy) are normal, and not fanboyish in the slightest.

That's my issue. We're allowed to discuss the Codex it seems, but only if we love it with all of our bodies, even our peepees, and only if we want to have its children. But if we have something about it that we don't like, or are concerned about, well obviously we're nerdraging neckbeaded hamfisted whiners.

Obviously.

There's your fething double standard.

Reecius wrote:Every.

Single.

Codex.

People get their panties in a bunch when the rumors come out and run around like chicken little, crying about the sky falling.

Chill out for crying out loud, we don't even have it yet! Everyone thought the new Marines would be unstopable and that every person in GW was a moron. Well looky looky, the marine codex is fun, turning out to be pretty competetive and has a ton of variety. Win.

So just relax until not only we have the dex but we have a chance to play it and go over the various builds. You may be pleasantly surprised.

I choose to remain optimistic and not cry and gnash my teeth before I have even seen the final product.

And look at the birght side, at the very least, we will still have a lot more tanks to play with!

And every single codex somebody says this, or something like it.

And every codex I respond with the following, or something like it:

We live in a world were information is made immediate. We get it fast, we react fast. Nobody here is forming solid opinions on the book, on the list, on GW. We are commenting on the nature of something that is unformed. Codex rumors threads would be either very short, or very repetitive if we didn't comment, good or bad, on the nature of the rumors. How many variations of "Sounds cool, I can't wait to see the actual codex" can you read before perhaps you'd like some analysis.

H.B.M.C. wrote:And your suggested alternative would be what DBM?

That we all happily suck at the teat of whatever GW puts out like a bunch of good little sycophants? Or perhaps people who are happy with the changes are allowed to express how much they love them, but those that aren't should stop right now because dissatisfaction is obviously just "nerdrage" and nothing legitimate.

Enough with the fething double standard.

People who like it can say they like it, and they're fine normal people, not sycophantic fanboys at all, but those that don't are branded whiners, neckbeards and people suffering from 'nerdrage'.

So, again, DBM, what would your suggested alternatives be?


I mean when myself, Aggy, DD and Shummy all come down on (roughly) the same side in a discussion, shouldn't that tell you something? All we need now is MIA GW sycophant Toreador to come in here claiming the end is nigh and we'll have a general Dakka consensus on the issue.

BYE

Okay, first off - Have you seen me championing any of these changes? Trying to look on the bright side of some them (i.e., trying to find a way to play Leman Russes and hoping that there's something as yet unseen in the Ogryn rules to make them not suck balls), but I'm not happy about how many of these rumors are solidifying. Folks have heard me rant about the Punisher and the other new tanks already - I'm particularly annoyed to have just finished my 3rd Hellhound for my squadron only to find it being nerfed. I've done my own "nerdraging" on this subject. My comment was not derogatory in any way. It was an observation of just how many people are passionate about Imperial Guard - trust me, I had noticed (with surprise and alarm) at you agreeing with DD and Shuma.

As for alternatives, I think there's lots of alternatives that have been shuttled around already, but it seems to me that other than one or more of the following, at this point in the process there's not a whole lot we can do to change the rules. The way I see it we can:
a) Complain about it to GW (or through forums such as Dakka as a proxy for this);
b) Sell our IG armies in protest;
c) Try to figure out the best way to play our IG armies under the new rules (this includes both being optimistic and pessimistic about the power level of the new codex);
d) Get out of GW games completely;
e) Budget to buy new models that we may never play with but want to add to our collection;
etc. etc. etc. We have lots of options. Changing the rules of this codex release ain't one of them.

So, before you come down on me, H.B.M.C., maybe you should try to understand better what I'm trying to say rather than assuming that it's an insult. Take a look back at my post. Go ahead. Other than using the term "nerdrage" do I make any offensive comment? I'm not trying to stop anyone from talking. I was just commenting on the state of the dialog.