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I'd rather play against a badly painted army than primed or bare.

I wouldn't want to play agaisnt the army described in the OP, but that's because of proxies, not bad paint jobs.

badly painted IF it is WYSIWYG and appropriately proxied.

The use of proxy forces would drive me nuts.

I really don't care, either or is fine with me, but the Proxy stuff has got to stop. I was playing with a guy that used GREEN army men "YES" green army men as assult marines. "what the Hell" NO MORE PROXY's

porkuslime wrote:The Eldar was beyond Psychadelically painted. Parts of his army were painful to look at. Now, this is a post about that Eldar army. He had it primed white, and used EXTREMELY bright colors on it. Bases were not done, and there were no fully painted models in his force. Lots of white with Pink, Yellow, Electric Green, Purple, Fuchsia, Ice Blue, etc. Combine this with another facet of the list.. each squad consisted of indivicually disctinct guys. His Ranger squad, for example, had a Pink cloaked guy, a Green guy, a Purple model, etc.. no coherency in the color scheme. Same for the Scorpion Squad, both Dire Avenger squads, and the Seer council he was running. The seer council was made of WHFB models (I can deal with that, no worries). He had both squads of Dire Avengers in one ruin, and even HE had issues with removing casualties, because (I think) he had 20 models in a tight area, with no squad definitions. His color was also heavy/blobby.. looked like splotches on a dropcloth against the table.

Combine this color riot with comments like "Yeah, those are Guardian models, but I paid for them as Dire Avengers"..

Sounds like you played against a pre-grimdark Eldar army from Second Edition, when GW actually stated that all models in a unit would look distinctive, and all of their 'Eavy Metal examples were hyper-saturated, hyper-contrast, super-bright paint jobs. God bless the "Red" era's ending...

Anyhow, you can't fault the guy for a second-edition paint scheme - it's painted, and there's no accounting for taste. Nor can you fault him for painting badly - it happens. And forcing a guy to repaint to modern standards isn't very fair - it's a lot of work painting an army. If it really bothers you that much. put your money where your mouth is and buy him a couple pots of Badab Black and Devlan Mud washes to help him make his army more grimdark.

What you can legitimately complain about is his use of proxies. You can reasonably expect that models are what they look like. So the Avatar (unless it's the OOP RT-era spearchucker) should be a big model, and the Dire Avengers should have plumed hats. Proxying like that isn't cool.

Bare. Let's be honest, if I'm using my (well painted) army against a guy who has been playing for years, but who's army resembles the shattered survivors of a campaign based in a paint factory, I feel embarrassed for him. There's no excuse for no being neat, at least, after years in the hobby. Anybody who claims indifference needs to realise the value of money.

Ever notice that nobody ever gets modest about their painting skill? Unless they're completely ignorant, players will be truthful about their proficiency. Players should be proud of a well painted army, and if they a need a kick up the backside to push their skills along, they'll only thank you in the long run. In this hobby, it's often kind to be cruel.

Rather see bare. Atleast you can still paint them. Badly painted feels like a waste of model. While I accept poor skill, I cannot accept poor effort.

Preferred paint quality armies to play against, in order:

Beautifully painted and based. Coherent/themed.
-> Decently painted and based. Themed.
-> Decently painted, unbased.
-> WIP painted. Unbased yet, and only some models/units complete. Looking promising.
-> Sub-average painted, based/unbased.
-> Primed.
-> Garishly, poorly painted, based/unbased.
-> Built only. Bare plastic.
-> Partially built bare plastic.
-> Overly/Totally 'counts as' proxy army (complete or not).



Yes, I would rather play a game against an army of headless, armless Marine torsos and trackless vehicles temporarily held together by masking tape than a bunch of Zombies with sacks that 'count as' Lootas.




Ghidorah

But what if, for example I will use myself:
I have 1000 points of dark elves some are just assembled, some are primed and based, and one is WIP painted. If I have only this are you telling me it would be a problem if i walked into games workshop to play a game and test out my army that I have started just because I haven't yet had the 100 hours I require (Im new so im kinda slow at everything) to complete the army?
And if that is a problem when it comes to playing with strangers, surely I can go in with just what I have now and play a game with my buddy? Can't I?

All else being equal, I would prefer:
1. grimdark-painted army
2. badly-painted army
3. fully-assembled army
4. proxy army

I hate playing 'this is a' whatever army. My buddy has over 8000pts of wolves in 40k, and some of them are the best ever converted!!! but there still Grey at the moment no base coat. the same with me, in that my Tau/Farsight army is painted, except for the troops who are only base coated, cuz i keep changing my mind on how to paint them (its taken me 2 years and i still cant decide).

but my point hear is this. id rather play against a unpainted army and not have to keep asking "by the way, what does that represent again?" End the heresy!!! Burn the non-believers at the stake!!!!

ricekake87 wrote:I hate playing 'this is a' whatever army. My buddy has over 8000pts of wolves in 40k, and some of them are the best ever converted!!! but there still Grey at the moment no base coat. the same with me, in that my Tau/Farsight army is painted, except for the troops who are only base coated, cuz i keep changing my mind on how to paint them (its taken me 2 years and i still cant decide).

but my point hear is this. id rather play against a unpainted army and not have to keep asking "by the way, what does that represent again?" End the heresy!!! Burn the non-believers at the stake!!!!

Sometimes w/out paint is just as bad as "this is a...". Especially if you are unfamiliar with the army.
From across a table, gray lootas look similar to Burnas and could be confused.

I am of the habit of verifying what units are before my turn begins, vs painted or unpainted, just to eliminate surprises.
It sucks if you find out 3rd turn that the unit you were manuevering your hard assault unit toward is another assault unit, and not the troop choice you thought it was.

My current Ork Horde can be confusing because a mob of Black primed Orks with shootas doesn't look too different from a mob of Black primed 'Ard Boyz from 4' away.
Due to noticing opponents asking what is what, I find myself painting this army much faster than any other I have built.

With Space Marines, its easy to roll with the Plastic Horde because nearly everyone knows what everything is.
A marine w/ bolter looks different from a marine with Lascannon from a Jumppack Assault Marine.

That all said, I have no problems playing someone with the right models, painted or not. Based and standing upright is a must.

Well it all depends. Lets not forget that 'badly painted' is an entirely subjective term. After all you may well be very proud of your calibre of painting but a Golden Demon winner may well regard it as an awful mess.

I think the most important thing is that you have put your best effort into it. I think the worst thing is that an army be unpainted and remain so for years when the owner seems to have no intention whatsoever of ever painting it. I'll admit to being guilty of this in the past and it's something I really regret.

To the OP I think the main part of your opponents behaviour I would have an issue with is the proxying. I've got no issue with proxying per say (try before you buy!) and the WFB models wouldn’t bother me at all. After all the Elf and Eldar ranges are ripe for inchangability, same with the Ork and Orc ranges. But to not make it totally clear what is proxying for what during deployment is appalling manners. That he didn't mention at all that something was standing in for an Avatar was bad enough. That the surprise Proxy be a different sized model? That's downright cheating.

I think a good rule of thumb is to mark all proxied models/units with a bit of paper before the game. If the squad of Guardians is playing the role of Dire Avengers insist on a scrap of paper next to the squad with Dire Avengers written on it. It also avoids any situations later should the opponent 'change his mind' after a well placed battle cannon shot and decide it was in fact the other Guardian squad that were pretending to be Dire Avengers (I've seen this happen).

Perhaps the etiquette of proxying would make an interesting article?

LuciusAR wrote:
Perhaps the etiquette of proxying would make an interesting article?

It'd be a short article - don't do it...but if you have to, go our of your way to point out what's what, preferably at the start of both your turn AND his turn, as well as printing out a "cheat sheet" which lists what's proxying for what.

I have to be honest, there are 3 of us who play 40k in my house (live in shared housing with 6 other students) and unfortuneatly, since some of us can barely afford to pay rent and bills (it's a tough life being a student) we reglularly use proxies in our armies simply because we cannot afford the time or, more importantly money on GW miniatures (even from places cheaper than GW) currently the worst proxies are my mate's assasin (he just has a vindicare model and which ever assasin he uses is proxied), a throne of judgement (a chaos dread with the arms left off) and my battlewagon (a toy VW camper van). I would love to play with 1500pts of gloriously painted and converted models, but it isn't going to happen any time soon, so if someone in a situation similar to mine wanted to proxy, I wouldn't mind (i mean, its about having fun right no I'm not gonna p**s and moan if for a few games that bottle of diet coke is a stranglerfex). But proxying/unpainted stuff just because you 'can't be bothered' is tbf a bit anal.

LuciusAR wrote:Lets not forget that 'badly painted' is an entirely subjective term.

I wouldn't say entirley.

Kyrolon wrote:
The idea I got from the original post was that the Eldar player had done silly things like a neon green arm, red torso, purple helmet etc. I wouldn't get much pleasure from playing against someone who literally splashed three splotches of random color on a model. In that respect the old "three color" rule is counter productive. For the purpose of a basic rule, perhaps the best is requiring the models be properly assembled (meaning have all their limbs, heads and appropriate weapons) and possibly at least primed. It would also be preferable if squads could be distinguished somehow. For something like marines this could be as simple as assembling, priming, and painting one shoulder pad in each squad a given color. I don't think that's too much to ask, and can look fairly appealing, especially if the person takes one more step and either uses one of the magic washes that are on the market now, or drybrushes a few quick highlights.

If it absolutely came down to it, I don't think I'd ever say no I won't play you, but if I have the choice of opponents and one as a "deliberately" badly painted army, then I know which I'd rather play.

To be a bit more coherent on the Eldar army I was facing..

His Dire Avengers were (as I found out after the battle) Guardian models. He uses them interchangeable as his army layout changes.

BUT.. Each model was primed white with one color on it for a armor color, and a different metallic as the gun color. When I say Armor color, I mean helmet, torso, and legs.. arms were bare white. Off the top of my head, he used at least 10 different colors as the Armor color amongst 20 models. he had a Ice Blue DA with Boltgun catapult, a Scorpion Green DA with Tin catapult, a Tentacle Pink DA with a Shining Gold catapult etc..

There was not 2 identical painted models amongst the 20 Dires he had. He continued the mismatching main color and gun metallics onto the Striking Scorpion and Ranger units..

He also had a Wave Serpent (turretless) with a Dark Reaper upperhalf glued in, to represent the TL Eldar Missile Launcher it had (which was an interesting idea), but it was painted Carnivale MardiGras colors.. and after thinking about it for a few days.. that really fits as a descrioption of the army..

I do not know if that was his plan or not.. he had no fluff that he explained..

Also.. his Avatar proxie was NOT the old OOP Avatar.. it really was a WHFB High Elf with spear..

I think this is a reallly tough call.

I've played against the endless grey hoards before, but by and large the models have always been what theywere meant to be or at least a very close approximation.

As to the badly painted, well I've played some really shoddy armies, and often they've had significant replacements from the grey legions of doom. The bit that really gets me is when you have someone who is painting an army and it does look poor, and you offer them just a little advice, (hey give that yellow a second thin coat and the coverage will look great, or a quick wash and drybrush and it'll look better) and they just don't listen, and continue just as before.

Sometimes you've got to suk up your pride and accept the help of others, I know it's what helped my painting and i'm as stubborn as the rest of them!

But in the end, I'd rather play a poorly painted army - if it was all poorly painted, to a grey legion of doom!

@ porkus

that Eldar army sounds sort of cool, i would love to see it lol

Yah, pics, or it didn't happen!

Personally, i would either want to face an army that is WIP, and is half painted or one that isn't painted at all than facing a 'badly' painted army

and when i say, i mean that the person has been playing for a while, and just doesn't care about his models, and what they look like, as long as they are painted, and just doesn't want to improve. I don't mind facing new people who have badly painted armies, as they have just started and don't know or are learning to paint well

I personally do play with unpainted models, but that is just because i don't have the time to paint between my work and studies, and so i have 19 stormtroopers and umpteen space marines to paint ~_~

I have a bit of a problem with semi built but that's about it.

I'd rather play a well/fully painted (ie to the best of the players ability) 500pt game than a half/unpainted 3000pt game.
Basically just play with your painted models. It will give you real incentive to finish the others.

I like playing against painted armies. Mainly because, to me, part of the fun of a tourney is getting to see all the pretty armies.

Now, with that said, I've no issue with playing against unpainted or badly painted armies. Not everyone can paint well and honestly, they're their minis, not mine. I've gotten descent at painting, but I can honestly tell you that my first tries were atrocious.

Myself, I don't field unpainted miniatures, pure and simple. It's not to be a snob or anything. It's because I've got a horde army and if I start playing with unpainted stuff, I'll wind up with the perpetually unpainted army rather than a frightening sea of green choppiness; but hey, that's just me.

No question - poorly painted.

edit: but for full disclosure I must say that I am a horrible offender of playing with not fully painted armies - I am a slow painter and having a newborn hasn't really sped things up. Were it not for tourneys and 2 weeks of sleepless nights I wouldn't have a single army painted :-p

I can deal with bad painting, partially constructed armies and bare plastic, but I really do dislike a completely insane and jarring paint scheme. Sometimes you can pull off every model being unique, but armies need to be at least slightly cohesive so you can tell units apart and see that they all belong.
I have come to accept unpainted armies, even if I tease the players mercilessly about it, but a completely random paint scheme just tells me that they didn't put the thought in to try.

I prefer non-proxy. They might be beautifully painted, but I'm confused enough as it is..

I don't really mind proxies. As long as the model beiung proxied in is at leasta close to the model, ESPECIALLY with special characters. I have a plastic commander for my templars army that has a combi melta and a power weapon: I've dropped him once as Helbrecht. I like the helbrecht moidel, but I have other things I'd rather drop my limited funds into. Saying an appropriately sizable model is Ghazkull, or that this land raider is an LRC is no problem. Dropping a lichtor as a carnifex or (and I'm not kidding) a NOTECARD as a leman russ just isn't cool.
And on the subject of poorly painted I once played a gray knights army that looked like it was painted with a shotgun filled with paint and poop. But waht made me cry was the 3 forgeworld dreadnaughts that looked absolutely terrible. Has anyone else seen this travesty?

I don't really mind proxies. As long as the model beiung proxied in is at leasta close to the model, ESPECIALLY with special characters. I have a plastic commander for my templars army that has a combi melta and a power weapon: I've dropped him once as Helbrecht. I like the helbrecht moidel, but I have other things I'd rather drop my limited funds into. Saying an appropriately sizable model is Ghazkull, or that this land raider is an LRC is no problem. Dropping a lichtor as a carnifex or (and I'm not kidding) a NOTECARD as a leman russ just isn't cool.
And on the subject of poorly painted I once played a gray knights army that looked like it was painted with a shotgun filled with paint and poop. But waht made me cry was the 3 forgeworld dreadnaughts that looked absolutely terrible. Has anyone else seen this travesty?

I don't really mind proxies. As long as the model beiung proxied in is at leasta close to the model, ESPECIALLY with special characters. I have a plastic commander for my templars army that has a combi melta and a power weapon: I've dropped him once as Helbrecht. I like the helbrecht moidel, but I have other things I'd rather drop my limited funds into. Saying an appropriately sizable model is Ghazkull, or that this land raider is an LRC is no problem. Dropping a lichtor as a carnifex or (and I'm not kidding) a NOTECARD as a leman russ just isn't cool.
And on the subject of poorly painted I once played a gray knights army that looked like it was painted with a shotgun filled with paint and poop. But waht made me cry was the 3 forgeworld dreadnaughts that looked absolutely terrible. Has anyone else seen this travesty?

I don't really mind proxies. As long as the model beiung proxied in is at leasta close to the model, ESPECIALLY with special characters. I have a plastic commander for my templars army that has a combi melta and a power weapon: I've dropped him once as Helbrecht. I like the helbrecht moidel, but I have other things I'd rather drop my limited funds into. Saying an appropriately sizable model is Ghazkull, or that this land raider is an LRC is no problem. Dropping a lichtor as a carnifex or (and I'm not kidding) a NOTECARD as a leman russ just isn't cool.
And on the subject of poorly painted I once played a gray knights army that looked like it was painted with a shotgun filled with paint and poop. But waht made me cry was the 3 forgeworld dreadnaughts that looked absolutely terrible. Has anyone else seen this travesty?