Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Vengis wrote:

avantgarde wrote:Lootas, they suck BS2 with d3 shots whatever.

Flash gitz are much better especially upgrade all the way since they have two wounds, work better with boyz because of they're close range weapons and have a reliable number of shots that can upgraded.

Then you have never played against two units of 15 Lootas. Range 48" covers a large swath of the table, Str 7 can kill nearly everything in the game, and AP4 will kill most non-MEQs. It doesn't matter if they have BS2. The sheer volume of shots they put out makes up for it. Even with 15 shots (which you'll only get 1/3 of the time) the lootas will average 5 hits. That's fairly reliable against armor 12 or less. And 45 shots will wreck most units. Firewarriors, Eldar, Guard, they loose units at a time to that. Small elite units like terminators or crisis suits? They die through the sheer number of wounds that get put on them. One unit of lootas put 3 wounds on a one of my hive tyrants in a single phase. That's a T6 2+ unit. Not to mention, the lootas are T4 models and get placed in cover, if the ork player has any sense.

Flash Gitz get expensive FAST, if you give them multiple upgrades. And why would they be better because of close range? That just means they're closer to being counter attacked.

Math isn't everything there's a lot of things that affect the game other than straight up statistics, like tactics. Snazzguns have d6 AP, -1 if you pay for blastas which is worth it if you get the 5++ and FNP, which can punch through Terminator armour half the time, power armor 2/3s of the time and 4+ 5/6s of the time. They get even better with Badrukk to bolster their fire.

If your shooty unit was to get charged, would it be better for them to be assaulted in the front near your boyz who can counter charge in or near the back without as much support? With the 2 wounds they could take more of a beating from shooting and assault. Not to mention they can take Cybork bodies and Painboyz to make them even tougher.

I know 500 pts of Flash Gitz could easily outshoot 500 pts of Lootas.

Daemonhunters: Orbital Bombardment

Eldar: Swooping Hawks

Tyranids: Biovores

Necrons: Pariahs

Tau: Tau

Guard: Ogryn

Witchhunters: Repentia

avantgarde wrote:
Math isn't everything there's a lot of things that affect the game other than straight up statistics, like tactics. Snazzguns have d6 AP, -1 if you pay for blastas which is worth it if you get the 5++ and FNP, which can punch through Terminator armour half the time, power armor 2/3s of the time and 4+ 5/6s of the time. They get even better with Badrukk to bolster their fire.

If your shooty unit was to get charged, would it be better for them to be assaulted in the front near your boyz who can counter charge in or near the back without as much support? With the 2 wounds they could take more of a beating from shooting and assault. Not to mention they can take Cybork bodies and Painboyz to make them even tougher.

I know 500 pts of Flash Gitz could easily outshoot 500 pts of Lootas.

Are you being serious here, or is this some sort of ironic devil's advocate thing? I'm asking in seriousness, because you're basically saying one of the worst units in the game is superior to one of the best, at least as most people would rank them. I would explain why, but part of me is thinking that you're just messing with us. Let me know.

Yes. "Use tactics". Because all I did was talk about statistics.

I was speaking from experience. I've seen lootas deployed, and I've seen what they do to units. I've lost an 18 man squad of kroot to them in one turn. I've lost tyranid MCs to them.

I don't have the codex on hand, but what strength are snazzguns?

the thunderfire is pretty usefull

S5 un-upgraded, S6 upgraded.

Anecdotal evidence has limited weight in a tactics discussion.

Also I'm just messing with you. I would have thought the ridiculousness of my position, Casper's quoting and italicized tactics would have clued people in. Flash gitz are indeed overpriced chaff that take up useful HS slots better used for Battlewagons or Kans.

After some more time to think here is my worst unit for each army

1) SM - Vanguard Vets
2) CSM - Dreads, Spawn
3) Guard - Ogryns
4) Eldar - Vypers, Swooping Hawks, Vibro Cannon
5) Dark Eldar - what others have said
6) Tau - Krootox, Vespids, anything not in a ninja tau list
7) Orks - Flash Gitz, Tankbustas
8) DA - Non DW or RW, but as Alerian said, RW is only there to help DW hit home
9) Necrons - Pariahs
10) SW, BA, BT - not really sure, anything horribly overpriced compared to the SM dex
11) Deamons - nothing?
12) WH - repentia, penitent engines are bad as well
13) DH - deamonhosts

SM: Whirlwinds
I have two in my army at the moment and to date they've only been useful once. Though admittedly very useful as they took out all but 1 of a squad of Terminators. The rest of the time they miss completely.

WH: Sisters Repentia
Okay, says a guy at GW one day, I have this idea- Close Combat tank hunters! No special saves and a S 3 (6) in the rules that we'll never explain when you get the S6! His boss looks at him funny and says, "How would you entice anyone to buy that for their army?" The genius replies, "We'll put them in bondage gear and give them the biggest vaguely phallic thing you've ever seen in a sister's hands." The rest is history.

Tankbustas. You have to heard them the whole game using trukks to block LoS to make them worth taking.

For eldar I have to split on either hawks or their artillery being the worst. Hawks in 4th had some real uses, but now they are overpriced flashlight users and the exarch is no longer a killer in hth. Plus of course the changes to their elite high tech grenades now being more fizzle than bang.

Eldar guardian squads still have their uses. They are a scoring unit plus they are a good home for either a scatter laser or an eml. Firing a blast weapon their BS 3 doesnt matter much; and if needs be then they can at least TRY and take out armor.

Vypers are certainly not as good as they used to be, but they are a great place to drop a few points when finishing out a list. With an eml they can snipe from long range or if you know you will be facing a horde they are a good place to add a few more str 6 shots.



Sliggoth

avantgarde wrote:S5 un-upgraded, S6 upgraded.

Anecdotal evidence has limited weight in a tactics discussion.

Also I'm just messing with you. I would have thought the ridiculousness of my position, Casper's quoting and italicized tactics would have clued people in. Flash gitz are indeed overpriced chaff that take up useful HS slots better used for Battlewagons or Kans.

Oh, so you mean you're a troll? Got it.

I never played against anyone Tau and using vespids, but I really liked the look of them. Too bad.

Vengis wrote:

avantgarde wrote:S5 un-upgraded, S6 upgraded.

Anecdotal evidence has limited weight in a tactics discussion.

Also I'm just messing with you. I would have thought the ridiculousness of my position, Casper's quoting and italicized tactics would have clued people in. Flash gitz are indeed overpriced chaff that take up useful HS slots better used for Battlewagons or Kans.

Oh, so you mean you're a troll? Got it.

Successful Troll is Successful. I really thought that it was funny, avantgarde.

willydstyle wrote:
Successful Troll is Successful. I really thought that it was funny, avantgarde.

As did I, avantgarde. Shame some people don't enjoy a sence of humor in these threads.

Casper wrote:After some more time to think here is my worst unit for each army

13) DH - deamonhosts

Seriously? The orbital stike is much worse. So what they do something random. If you get bloodboil you drop a ordanance blast that hits everything but you and you can run before you decide to drop it or drop it then run. The fact that you can also by chance warp out of CC or regain all 4 wounds it nice as well.
Oribital Stike=
Player 1: Right my orbital strike is landing....scatter....crap.....misses everything......
Player 2: Moves units away from terrain
Player 1: What a waste of 60 points (min)

While you can do the same thing with the deamon host anything you roll will be usefull in some way or another. IF you get bloodboil and your not near anyone no big deal its like an orbital strike that doesnt hit anyone.

Emrab wrote:
Seriously? The orbital stike is much worse. So what they do something random. If you get bloodboil you drop a ordanance blast that hits everything but you and you can run before you decide to drop it or drop it then run. The fact that you can also by chance warp out of CC or regain all 4 wounds it nice as well.
Oribital Stike=
Player 1: Right my orbital strike is landing....scatter....crap.....misses everything......
Player 2: Moves units away from terrain
Player 1: What a waste of 60 points (min)

There's no doubt that Orbital Strikes were badly nerfed by the change from Ordinance scattering 1d6 to scattering 2d6 minus BS. That said, since 2/3rds of missions involve holding specific places on the board, it strikes me that it should be possible to do something useful with an Orbital Strike.

I would argue that Death Cult Assassins are far, far worse.

Casper wrote:

willydstyle wrote:
Successful Troll is Successful. I really thought that it was funny, avantgarde.

As did I, avantgarde. Shame some people don't enjoy a sence of humor in these threads.

It's a shame some people can't spell.

I wasted my time typing of a thought-out reply. I happen to not like that.

At least I know that anything avantgarde says it worthless.

I thought you both where in on it...

Know knead two bee sew eye rate.

Milquetoast Thug wrote:Also, vespids are 16 points.

oh right it's the strain leader that is 22

Samurai Jack! Got'em all.

Sorry, OT . . .

terminators. too slow
know if they could be put on bikes???

eldar:

falcon, swooping hawks, vipers

Termis too slow? add shrike.

SW: long fangs -stupidly overpriced.
SM: vanguard
Orks: Flash Gitz
Necrons: Pariahs

Daemons: Furies

New Guard: Nork Deddog. In fact, I think he gains the award for most useless ever.

willydstyle wrote:New Guard: Nork Deddog. In fact, I think he gains the award for most useless ever.

Whats so bad about him, I don't have the new dex but it seems odd that a named character in a new dex would be that bad.

Casper wrote:

willydstyle wrote:New Guard: Nork Deddog. In fact, I think he gains the award for most useless ever.

Whats so bad about him, I don't have the new dex but it seems odd that a named character in a new dex would be that bad.

Well... lets say he costs as much as a Daemon Prince, but does not have dp stats, and does not count as a monstrous creature, does not have a power weapon, does not do extra penetration against vehicles, does not have a 3+ armor save, and does not have an invulnerable save. He does have FNP, which is the only thing you really gain from him.

He's got T5, but is an upgrade model for a command squad. Since he's not an independent character, and is in a squad who has majority T3, you're going to be using T3 for any wounds allocated to the squad either by shooting or CC until the squad is wittled down to only him and the officer, so basically all he does is add 3 FNP wounds to the unit.

The same could be achieved by purchasing a medic and two bodyguard advisers for far fewer points.

He's cool, and has cool special rules, but because of the way his rules interact with the actual rules of the game... they rarely actually matter.

IMO just another example of the IG codex writer being a noob, and not understanding the rules of 40k (see also mortars+master of ordnance).

edit: nothing to see here...sucked in by Trollyness! ARGHHH!