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+1 for Space Wolves and Long fangs, with Blood Claw Jump Packers a close second.

-Bleh Double Poast-

Exarch_Nektel wrote:

willydstyle wrote:For Eldar: Guardians. Hooray, we're like guardsmen with less firepower for twice the points!

Actually, Guardians can have heavy weapons, which gives them the extra punch they need. They also have more firepower than guardsmen.
Also, with a Warlock w/ conceal, guardians will be a near unmoveable GUARD to your "close to home" objectives. Guardians are always worth their points for me.

Guardians can have one heavy weapon.

10 guardians with a shuriken cannon (cheapest option, but not the best one) and a conceal warlock comes out to 125 points (or something near there, can't be bothered to get the codex at the moment).

For 125 points you can get:

Two units of IG with an autocannon and grenade launcher in each unit comes out to 120 points.

The guardians have 11 T3 bodies.

The guardsmen have 16 T3 bodies and 2 T3 2 wound models (20 wounds total)

The guardians have 3 str 6 shots at 24" (about 1/3 of an MEQ kill).

At 12" the guardians have 18 BS3 str 4 shots, one BS4 str 4 shot, and 3 str 6 shots. This averages 2.0 MEQ kills.

The guardsmen have 4 str 7 shots at 48" (about 1/2 an MEQ kill) (the guardians don't have this range at all)

4 str 7 2 str 6, 12 str 3 shots at 24"=about 1.5 MEQ kills (compared to 1/3 MEQ kill at the same range for guardians)

And at 12" the guardsmen have 4 str 7, 2 str 6, 26 str 3 shots= 2.3 MEQ kills.

So, while they're about the same at 12" or less(but with an advantage to the Guardsmen), the guardsmen completely outgun the Guardians at ranges beyond 12", And although the Guardian's weapon platform gives them an ability to move and shoot the shuriken cannon, it still does not match the range of the autocannon, not to mention that the grenade launchers are also move and fire, and can fire small blast markers to take advantage of clumped up enemies.

Guardians suck.

Grenade Launchers are not heavy weapons...

Gwar! wrote:Grenade Launchers are not heavy weapons...

I wasn't saying they were.

He said "Guardians can have heavy weapons, which give them the punch they need."

I replied that Guardians can have one heavy weapon, then went on to show how that one heavy weapon does not give them adequate "punch" for their points.

willydstyle wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Grenade Launchers are not heavy weapons...

I wasn't saying they were.

He said "Guardians can have heavy weapons, which give them the punch they need."

I replied that Guardians can have one heavy weapon, then went on to show how that one heavy weapon does not give them adequate "punch" for their points.

Well, you did demonstrate that the worst possible Guardian build is worse than arguably the most efficient IG build, but that's now how the game is played. To be the worst unit, a unit has to have the least effectiveness when built and used optimally. 10 Guardians, no warlock, and a scatter laser next to an Avatar. That's 95pts, it can move and shoot, it scores, it's fearless, and by arcing behind the Avatar gains a 4+ cover save while being able to magically move the scatter laser between either gunner. Is that a great unit? No. Is it better than Swooping hawks? Yes it is.

At 100pts you can give them a Missile Launcher, and just have them sit back and shoot all day. Again, not a great unit, but better than Hawks. For 140pts you get a bright lance and embolden, making them a good choice against land raiders.

As units that are at least reasonably decent, if over priced, for their combat role, Guardians are bad but certainly not the worst unit in the book.

Polonius wrote:

willydstyle wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Grenade Launchers are not heavy weapons...

I wasn't saying they were.

He said "Guardians can have heavy weapons, which give them the punch they need."

I replied that Guardians can have one heavy weapon, then went on to show how that one heavy weapon does not give them adequate "punch" for their points.

Well, you did demonstrate that the worst possible Guardian build is worse than arguably the most efficient IG build, but that's now how the game is played. To be the worst unit, a unit has to have the least effectiveness when built and used optimally. 10 Guardians, no warlock, and a scatter laser next to an Avatar. That's 95pts, it can move and shoot, it scores, it's fearless, and by arcing behind the Avatar gains a 4+ cover save while being able to magically move the scatter laser between either gunner. Is that a great unit? No. Is it better than Swooping hawks? Yes it is.

At 100pts you can give them a Missile Launcher, and just have them sit back and shoot all day. Again, not a great unit, but better than Hawks. For 140pts you get a bright lance and embolden, making them a good choice against land raiders.

As units that are at least reasonably decent, if over priced, for their combat role, Guardians are bad but certainly not the worst unit in the book.

Well, granted I was just comparing the Guardian build that a previous poster had described (with a conceal warlock) and a non-specific "heavy weapon." The other heavy weapons are better buys, but still don't make Guardians worth their points. If I were to take guardians to support an Avatar I'd probably take Storms anyways.

I think that between jump movement, 24" range guns, 4+ save and the grenade pack, swooping hawks are a better buy than guardians, but thank you for giving a great response that says more than just "guardians are fine!" I think one of the reasons why I rag on Guardians a lot is that they're supposed to be a core unit for Eldar... but they are really so terrible that you never see them in any competitive build, and while you don't see swooping hawks either, they're kind of supposed to be a niche unit that's not too commonly seen.

Well, guardians were really only a core unit for eldar in 3rd edition. Outside of Uthwe, most craftworlds rely on Aspects for most of the fighting, fluff wise, and I think the new codex does a really good job of representing that. Dire Avengers are a very effecient troop choice, as a jetbikes and rangers. Guardians are good at support, but aren't really good front line troops of their own. Well undeniably overcosted (at least for the warlock and powers), guardians do fill their role pretty well. They provide mobile covering fire while the professionals do the real fighting.

And swooping hawks just blow. Let's not mince words. Even the YoYo squad is 132pts and, if the reserves are kind, gets you 4 S4 AP5 large blasts a game. that's nice, but you're still counting on reserves, and hoping not to wipe out the squad while deepstriking. In any other use, they're enormously overcosted and understrength.

Guardian Defenders are also really the only cheap squad the eldar have that can move, allowing it to claim objectives a little easier than say rangers.

Polonius wrote:Well, guardians were really only a core unit for eldar in 3rd edition. Outside of Uthwe, most craftworlds rely on Aspects for most of the fighting, fluff wise, and I think the new codex does a really good job of representing that. Dire Avengers are a very effecient troop choice, as a jetbikes and rangers. Guardians are good at support, but aren't really good front line troops of their own. Well undeniably overcosted (at least for the warlock and powers), guardians do fill their role pretty well. They provide mobile covering fire while the professionals do the real fighting.

And swooping hawks just blow. Let's not mince words. Even the YoYo squad is 132pts and, if the reserves are kind, gets you 4 S4 AP5 large blasts a game. that's nice, but you're still counting on reserves, and hoping not to wipe out the squad while deepstriking. In any other use, they're enormously overcosted and understrength.

Guardian Defenders are also really the only cheap squad the eldar have that can move, allowing it to claim objectives a little easier than say rangers.

Actually... the fact that pathfinders ignore cover entirely makes them GREAT for moving onto objectives in the mid-late game, as long as you don't mind giving up their shooting for the turn. It's a trick I've used many times to great effect.

willydstyle wrote:
Actually... the fact that pathfinders ignore cover entirely makes them GREAT for moving onto objectives in the mid-late game, as long as you don't mind giving up their shooting for the turn. It's a trick I've used many times to great effect.

Which is why I think most eldar players utilize them over guardians. I forgot that they actually ignore difficult terrain still though, that's pretty cool. I'm not going to argue that guardians are the fifth best troops choice available to eldar (Dire Avengers, Pathfinders, Wraithguard, Jetbikes, guardians), I'm just more convinced that Swooping Hawks or Heavy Support Weapons are worse.

Biovores...they also qualify for "Most Nerfed Unit in 4rth Edition" IMHO: Going from being Ld 10 to Ld 5; Independant to Squads; 3 separate rolls to an all-or-nothing barage; 3 pie plates to 3 small blasts; going from bad to worst thanks to 5th edition KPs on mines that don't detonate immediately.

avantgarde wrote:Lootas, they suck BS2 with d3 shots whatever.

Flash gitz are much better especially upgrade all the way since they have two wounds, work better with boyz because of they're close range weapons and have a reliable number of shots that can upgraded.

Completely disagree. Lootas have the ability to wreck everything on the field except heavy tanks, at a relatively reasonable cost. Flash Gitz are waaay too expensive, have no power klaw options for CC, and you have to give them the 135 Baddruckk to give them a decent Ld where they won't break at the first sign of trouble. In fact, while Lootas may be one of the best units in the codex, I think flash gitz may be among the most overpriced and underachieving ones.

Biovores despirately need to get FAQ'd. I vote they are the worst. They literally THROW 3 KPs at your enemy per shooting phase in 5th.

DarkHound wrote:Biovores despirately need to get FAQ'd. I vote they are the worst. They literally THROW 3 KPs at your enemy per shooting phase in 5th.

Not if you play Capture and Control

Whoa, I'm surprised no-one has mentioned 'Nid Gargoyles yet. Is it only me thats noticed that all they are is flying Guants?

Lootas are great. I had two groups of them, and they got 75 shots off(Loadsa dice )(However, it was against SM, and 7 died)

For SM:LOTD, Termis are so so, Vanguard are not so great

For Orks: Tankbustas are so so, Flash Gitz suck, and Weird boys are meh

CSM:Spawn My friend had a group of three, that got slaughtered by 10 Sternguard(Well, it was ten, but he didnt even try to move them)

Tyranids:Rippers arent that great

IG:Ogryns

Tau:Kroot are meh. Vespids are bad.

Kungfuhustler wrote:

Milquetoast Thug wrote:
1. Aun-'205-freaking-points'-Va. what a flat out baaad unit, seriously.

No. read your codex over and over again until you like him. Yeah he's slightly overpriced (seriously, only slightly) but you'll thank yourself.

As far as the IG go: SLY "useless catachan that used to be worth his points" MARBO

These two opinions you hold are incorrect.

Aun'va is 205 points.
He himself sucks at everything WS1, BS3. He's rather difficult to kill, but he is 205 points for something with almost no punch.

I could take a hammerhead with all the fixin's and still have points left over at that price.

His only redeeming quality is the honor guard he comes with. They look, at first glance like close combat monsters. In a shooty army.

And there's only 2 of them. You'd think the master of the undying spirit would have more than 2 honor guards. If he brought 10 he might be worth his points.
His paradox of duality gives out cover saves like candy. Just like everything else in 5th edition.

For 205 points you can have a huge mob of shoota boys with a KFF, that would be better in CC, better at range, more surviveable, and wouldn't make units run off the board if the enemy hit them with 3 S6+ weapons.
Oh, and if he dies your fire warriors get furious charge and preferred enemy.

Whoop-de-freakin doo.


Compared to Guardsman-"kill you in your sleep"-marbo who can easily make twice his points back if he rolls Ok with his melta bombs and then gets into CC with basically anything short of Meganobz or Khorne berzerkers. He's a monster.

SM: Vanguard, how many pts? Techmarines are fairly useless too.

CSM: Spawn and standard chaos space marines (why bother with anything that isn't a cult n the new rules?)

Orks: Tankbustaz are very difficult to use for the pts. Flashgitz are hella pricy for limited utility but the winner is probably zzapgunz. Worse at tankbusting than the kannon for more pts.

Eldar: Swooping Hawks are so niche it is unbelievable but I believe they are tied with the current "what happened to our haywire grenades?" guardians.

Dark Eldar: Where do you start? Hellions are useless, mandrakes are nearly useless, grottesques are nearly useless and ugly and scourges appear to have been some kind of misprint that slammed a fast attack and a heavy support choice together so that they are good at neither.

Imperial Guard: Priests, confer as many disadvantages as they do benefits for the cost of a HQ slot and those benefits are nigh on useless for any unit in the codex.

Sisters of Battle: Either repentia (will never see combat and if they do will die before they get to swing) or priests (more disadvantages than advantages and you still have to pay pts!!!)

Daemonhunters: Daemonhosts, no grey knights for you, instead have a unit that is impossible to control and wouldbe sub-par even if you could control him

Blood Angels: Scouts (you could be buying assault marines for those pts, why aren't you), captain tycho (I am bad at everything including the one thing I should be good at) and techmarines.

Dark Angels: Scouts (you could be buying terminators for those pts, wy aren't you?) and techmarines

Space Wolves: Iron Priests, there are so many characters that you HAVE TO include in a space wolf army you really can't afford another one

Black Templars: I don't actually know the current Black Templar rules.....maybe nothing?

Tau: Vespid, hello, we shoot space marines then die, horribly. Krootoxes are pretty bad too. They would be fine if they didn't remove infiltrate.

Tyranids: Biovores, mostly because of the KP thing.

Necrons: Pariahs which would be fine if they counted towards phase out or had WBB but sadly do not

Kungfuhustler wrote:

Milquetoast Thug wrote:
1. Aun-'205-freaking-points'-Va. what a flat out baaad unit, seriously.

No. read your codex over and over again until you like him. Yeah he's slightly overpriced (seriously, only slightly) but you'll thank yourself.

As far as the IG go: SLY "useless catachan that used to be worth his points" MARBO

Sly, no scatter deep strike has a depth charge and is cheaper than a SWS squad Marbo?

Sly, sorry did you have a devastator/dark reaper/destroyer/war walker/ loota unit? Well not any more Marbo?

Sly, I'm a cheaper callidus assassin Marbo?

And this guy is in the same army as priests, engineseers, SWS squads and Ogryn is he?

Methinks thou dost complain too much.

Whats with the swooping hawk hate?
Kaywire grenades are mental, you may not destroy a tank in one turn but you'll almost definitely leave the crew sitting inside an immobile iron box with no weaponry. And usually they are allowed to do this with near no consequence as the eldar army had alot more juicier targets that need to be taken out.

Who wants to waste there firepower on one Swooping Hawk Unit?

combo wrote:Whats with the swooping hawk hate?
Kaywire grenades are mental, you may not destroy a tank in one turn but you'll almost definitely leave the crew sitting inside an immobile iron box with no weaponry. And usually they are allowed to do this with near no consequence as the eldar army had alot more juicier targets that need to be taken out.

Who wants to waste there firepower on one Swooping Hawk Unit?

The guy who just lost a squadron of Leman Russ to them.

Mmm...Pi wrote:

combo wrote:Whats with the swooping hawk hate?
Kaywire grenades are mental, you may not destroy a tank in one turn but you'll almost definitely leave the crew sitting inside an immobile iron box with no weaponry. And usually they are allowed to do this with near no consequence as the eldar army had alot more juicier targets that need to be taken out.

Who wants to waste there firepower on one Swooping Hawk Unit?

The guy who just lost a squadron of Leman Russ to them.

Who uses squadrons of Russ'?

In defense of orbital strikes, I think that It could be fun to take 3 lance strikes in a single game if you know it is a high terrian fight with a single objective that determines victory. If it looks like you arn't going to be able to take the terrain objective, just start dropping 3 str 10 ap 1 blasts on it each turn. Don't forget to laugh manically as your inquisitor (if he isn't dead already) stands back and watches the carnage. While not that tactically viable outside of very specific instances, Orbital strikes can be fun.

You can't take 3 Lance Strikes because they are 0-1. However, speaking of Orbital Strikes, I know of one apoc game where to "balance" up the points the DH player took 9001 Orbital Strikes (OK not that many but you know what I mean). Hilarity ensued when we realised that all the Strikes would either never come down (because of the lack of reserve rolls) or ALL come in as the half coming in on T2. They decided to just use the normal reserve rules and more laugher ensued when he rolled 4+ for every single strike on T2, thereby soaking every enemy terrain feature for the remainder of the game.

We decided to limit them to 0-3 for the next apoc game

Actually, will Swooping Hawks suddenly get good with IG heavy armored tanks in squadrens? Assault the tanks, plant more charges than God and watch as damage allocation screws them. Then can you still Skyleap? If so, /drool. If not, whatever, they aren't THAT expensive anyway.

I haven't had much luck fielding Storm Boyz - they seem very fragile for the ability just to by Jump Pack troops.

I guess if I run a max group?

willydstyle wrote:
Who uses squadrons of Russ'?

Well, the current talk for IG is to use three hydras, and most armies won't settle for just two russes, so someone will.

Actually, I remember people talking about taking un upgraded exterminators to act as shields for the rest of the squadron.

Mmm...Pi wrote:

willydstyle wrote:
Who uses squadrons of Russ'?

Well, the current talk for IG is to use three hydras, and most armies won't settle for just two russes, so someone will.

Actually, I remember people talking about taking un upgraded exterminators to act as shields for the rest of the squadron.

Vehicles that are in a squadron may not provide cover or block line of sight to other vehicles in the squadron.

Most good guard players I know don't even consider of squadrons of russes, because it makes them too vulnerable to things like fire dragons or vets with meltas.

Mmm...Pi wrote:

willydstyle wrote:
Who uses squadrons of Russ'?

Well, the current talk for IG is to use three hydras, and most armies won't settle for just two russes, so someone will.

Actually, I remember people talking about taking un upgraded exterminators to act as shields for the rest of the squadron.

The problem with Squadrons is is now far far too easy to kill them. 1/6 on a Glancing as opposed to 0% normally, 1/2 on a pen rather than 1/3, 1/3 on a Glancing AP1 and a whopping 2/3 on a Penetrating AP1 Hit. Squadrons severally reduce the survivability of a Tank, and unless you HAVE to just have your 9 Leman Russ' or 9 Flak Cannons, you are better off taking them as single Slots.

To be honest I agree about not using tank squadrons, but I can think of a few list designs that probably will make use of the rule to gain extra tanks. You also do get the benefit of not having to buy extra armor, for what that's worth.