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Foldalot wrote:Asmodeus, with out being a turd I would like to explain to you what ( I think ) enables the GK's to make a first turn assault.
As a scout move before the game you send the Valk/ Vend flat out at the enemy lines (18'')
Turn one you don't move the transport and then disembark from the transport normally, no grave chute insertion, and then Charge (8-9'' more)

This first turn assault is possible purely due to the fact that the Valk/ Vend can make a scout move. I don't think I have missed anything.

Spot on sir!

Scott-S6 wrote:

Redbeard wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:
The problem with the door guns is that they can't both shoot straight forwards. However, I have a plan....

I dunno, mine can. No conversion, no odd tweaks, just leaving both the mounting stand and bolter pivot turnable and they can get a forward angle.

Unless the door gunner is dangling from the back of it then it can't shoot directly forwards, you know, so that both heavy bolters can be used at once.

I thought they acted just like other sponsons with a 180 arc of fire, even if they can't really reach that.

It's not like we have to realistically model the hypothetical little dude in the Russ sponson.

OK dumb question, do fast skimmers move a max of 18" or 24"?

Never had one before in 5th edition.

24"

Da Boss wrote:Does anyone else find the idea of a parachuting terminator hilarious? Their shoulders are so wide they'd never reach the ripcord.

That's pretty good.

Foldalot wrote:Asmodeus, with out being a turd I would like to explain to you what ( I think ) enables the GK's to make a first turn assault.
As a scout move before the game you send the Valk/ Vend flat out at the enemy lines (18'')
Turn one you don't move the transport and then disembark from the transport normally, no grave chute insertion, and then Charge (8-9'' more)

This first turn assault is possible purely due to the fact that the Valk/ Vend can make a scout move. I don't think I have missed anything.

I don't think you're being a turd. I totally forgot about the scout move. See what can be accomplished if someone uses tact and details when making an explanation, DarkHellion? Progress!

Still, if you're using Grey Knight Termies in a Valkyrie, how many would you allow? I'd say six, because it's a universal, termies count as two models in a transport.

Asmodeus wrote:

Foldalot wrote:Asmodeus, with out being a turd I would like to explain to you what ( I think ) enables the GK's to make a first turn assault.
As a scout move before the game you send the Valk/ Vend flat out at the enemy lines (18'')
Turn one you don't move the transport and then disembark from the transport normally, no grave chute insertion, and then Charge (8-9'' more)

This first turn assault is possible purely due to the fact that the Valk/ Vend can make a scout move. I don't think I have missed anything.

I don't think you're being a turd. I totally forgot about the scout move. See what can be accomplished if someone uses tact and details when making an explanation, DarkHellion? Progress!

Still, if you're using Grey Knight Termies in a Valkyrie, how many would you allow? I'd say six, because it's a universal, termies count as two models in a transport.

Looks at own post on first page:

kadun wrote:
The scout move is 24" for a fast skimmer, but the scout USR says you have to stay 12" away from opposing units. Still, disembark 2", 1.5" base, 6" move, 6" charge should still let you pull it off 1st turn.

How was I not clear?

Anyway I'd only allow six Termies. Its pretty accepted that they take up two spots. Although I might be fielding 5 Termies w/ 1 Priest so I can re-roll to-hits.

Scott-S6 wrote:Unless the door gunner is dangling from the back of it then it can't shoot directly forwards, you know, so that both heavy bolters can be used at once.

It can if you dont model the door gunner directly on it.

kadun wrote:

Asmodeus wrote:

Foldalot wrote:Asmodeus, with out being a turd I would like to explain to you what ( I think ) enables the GK's to make a first turn assault.
As a scout move before the game you send the Valk/ Vend flat out at the enemy lines (18'')
Turn one you don't move the transport and then disembark from the transport normally, no grave chute insertion, and then Charge (8-9'' more)

This first turn assault is possible purely due to the fact that the Valk/ Vend can make a scout move. I don't think I have missed anything.

I don't think you're being a turd. I totally forgot about the scout move. See what can be accomplished if someone uses tact and details when making an explanation, DarkHellion? Progress!

Still, if you're using Grey Knight Termies in a Valkyrie, how many would you allow? I'd say six, because it's a universal, termies count as two models in a transport.

Looks at own post on first page:

kadun wrote:
The scout move is 24" for a fast skimmer, but the scout USR says you have to stay 12" away from opposing units. Still, disembark 2", 1.5" base, 6" move, 6" charge should still let you pull it off 1st turn.

How was I not clear?

Anyway I'd only allow six Termies. Its pretty accepted that they take up two spots. Although I might be fielding 5 Termies w/ 1 Priest so I can re-roll to-hits.

Hey! Hey! Can't a person miss something?

I think it is worth bringing up that the Guard codex does not allow ogren in a valkarie. Probably due to their size and to avoid what you are talking about with the GKT assaulting first turn. Yes termies take 2 spots on a transport. However the ONLY 40k transport that can carry them is the landraider, as far as I know. I would not be surprised to see a Erratta on the subject to limit this type of use. It just does not feel right that you need a landraider to transport termies but a flimsy flyer can do the same. RAI vs RAW?

I would say enjoy this over site while it lasts, this will probably be on the list of things to be fixed in an Erratta, however that could be years to never away. But pretty obvious that it was not intended to be used this way. Termies can't ride in, rhino, razorback, chimera what rule suddenly lets them ride in a valkarie? If it comes back to it doesn't say I can't, I think you need a bit more, as there are presidents to think about. It is not bad writing on their part to not put the line. "Cannot transport terminators.." I would have issue if someone did this as a obvious bend in the rules. With little but it doesn't say you can't, going for them.

Just my 2 cents...

Yeah I would say work away but don't cry when GW makes it illegal (eventually) when INQ gets redone.

Sha1emade wrote:I think it is worth bringing up that the Guard codex does not allow ogren in a valkarie. Probably due to their size and to avoid what you are talking about with the GKT assaulting first turn. Yes termies take 2 spots on a transport. However the ONLY 40k transport that can carry them is the landraider, as far as I know. I would not be surprised to see a Erratta on the subject to limit this type of use. It just does not feel right that you need a landraider to transport termies but a flimsy flyer can do the same. RAI vs RAW?

I would say enjoy this over site while it lasts, this will probably be on the list of things to be fixed in an Erratta, however that could be years to never away. But pretty obvious that it was not intended to be used this way. Termies can't ride in, rhino, razorback, chimera what rule suddenly lets them ride in a valkarie? If it comes back to it doesn't say I can't, I think you need a bit more, as there are presidents to think about. It is not bad writing on their part to not put the line. "Cannot transport terminators.." I would have issue if someone did this as a obvious bend in the rules. With little but it doesn't say you can't, going for them.

Just my 2 cents...

I have to agree with you here, this is one of those things that only tourney player types would even think of doing. By saying it cant trasport Ogryns Im sure they meant Large base infantry models. However, they did not say it, and since WH,DH can be legally used as allies I have to disagree that this was not poor rule writting.

There are precedents, but all of them are specific to the transports. There is no rule that says "Terminators can only be transported in" for terminators. Only Rules for what they can not be transported in. The Transport rules are very clear that any infantry model can be transported in any transport unless otherwise specified.

I agree that the RAI is pretty clear, but its just another of the many many examples of how GW does not pay attention or playtest thier rulesets. It is by far the single most frustrating thing about this company.

All that said, I would not have a problem with anyone using it. From a fluff standpoint this thing is a fracking orbit capable spacecraft. That means it has equivalent thrust to the space shuttle in order to break gravity. Weight is just not an issue, Ogryn are too tall and termies, although large are not much taller than a standar marine, easilly able to fit in the valkyrie.

I would expect this to be disallowed as soon as the first faq ( if ever ) comes from GW on the IG.

Termis can ride in chimeras.

The snark was just a free service. I thought you were being intentionally dense because there had been more than one explanation for how it worked.

The flying base thing is a very good point though, however I am sure that by 2020 we will have the errata so that it operates like a normal transport as the rules seem to intend.

The bulky models thing is also a good point, although you could still easily stick PAGK in there, move, incinerate and then charge.

[edit for spelling]

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Termis can ride in chimeras.

Just wanted to reiterate this, models in Terminator armor have been allowed to ride in Chimeras in the past. The Valk is just a flying Chimera right?

Fluff reason for Ogryns not in Valks is because they don't like flying, just like Mr. T

kadun wrote:Fluff reason for Ogryns not in Valks is because they don't like flying, just like Mr. T

Yeah, pretty much how I intepreted the "Ogryns can´t ride in Valks/Vendys"-rule. It is just a new take on the "It´s dark in dere"- rule from the old Codex. Nothing to do with bulk or armour. The big boys are just afraid of flying.

Ogryns get serious motion sickness when in transports. A valkyrie would probably cause them to lose their minds.

Liquidwulfe wrote:Ogryns get serious motion sickness when in transports. A valkyrie would probably cause them to lose their minds.

Lol. I just imagined sticking a bunch of Ogryns in a giant soda can and shaking it up. Lol. Yeeeessssss...

I picture the Ogryns not even bothering with Rapel Lines They just open the Side doors and the Pilot does a sharp Bank left turn and the all come falling out right on top of some irritated CSMs hahahaha but you know thats just me.

ALAS.

I would consider having a Squad of Stormies in a Valk along with a Close combat equipped command squad drop out of the sky and charge a target just as a Battle psyker Squad casts weaken resolve on them. Then the stormies shoot at the target and let the CS charge. This seems like a neat way to open a Hole in someones line.

with a big enough battle i could see using a Grey knight hero with retinue as well as a terminator squad filling the hq and elite category. 2 squads of grey knight termies assaulting on turn 1, scary for a lot of people, especially if they are running a low troop count army, seer council, or nidzilla armies, or lash lists too. Great idea guys and gals.

is it kosher not to use that stupid fething stand 4 the valk and just have it lay flat on the table. i think it solves a lot of problems. all that is left really is the damn wing issue which gives it a huge footprint

In a friendly game sure. However There is a company ( I want to say Gale Force Five) that can make elliptical bases for things jsut type in speccs to your choosing.

i think KK's OT brings up some valid questions. is anyone even considering the Valkyrie?
has the the Vendetta stolen the show? if you are using the Valkyrie, what weapon loadout does it have?
i purchased a FW Valkyrie that was assembled some years ago. it has the Lascannon and Hellstrikes.
the new ones i'm getting(if they ever get here!) i'm going to magnetize the wings and weapons for easy switching.
for the most part when i run the Valkyrie i'll be using Rocket Pods, Multilaser and door H bolters.
one advantage to them bringing Ordnance is they might be considered less of a threat since they're not Vendettas. and they're
a little cheaper than the Vendetta.

yeah, except anyone in their right mind, knowingly that is half a good general would not allow the first turn charge and youlw counter... move away a few inches, and voila!

i used to keep falling into the trap of making up army lists b4 hand without modding them for my opponent. i plan on using the valkyrie for horde armies like nids and orks. vendetta is for elite armies like marines and vehicle-heavy other armies like tau or spazz mariens. make up your mind which you will use when you see what the other guy is using. valkyrie with missle pods and multi laser costs EXACTLY THE SAME as a vendetta with lascannons

The Valkyrie is an excellent platform with the missle pods, that makes it capable of dropping two large pie plates and 3 multilaser shots ever turn while still moving 12".

That makes it very annoying for anyone and AV 12 is not a pushover, you have to try to take that down and hoard armies (except guard guyspam, or ork lotta spam) will have a hard time with that.

The ability to outflank against those armies is also awesome. It is very good to have a mix of valks and vendi's in a take all comers tournament list since they give you very good flexibility at a reasonable price.

The vendetta is a better deal point for point, but the valkyrie is still worth its own point cost, just not such a steal at 130 as a vendetta is.

they both fill very different roles however and work beautifully together. My army runs 2 vendis and 1 valk and its been very sucessful in test games so far.

Iago wrote:yeah, except anyone in their right mind, knowingly that is half a good general would not allow the first turn charge and youlw counter... move away a few inches, and voila!

How is this tactic disallowed if IG gets first turn?If I deploy first, then you deploy, then I make my scout move 12.1" from your lines with 2 vendis filled with GKT and Col Straken. Turn one I disembark 2", move 6", putting me 4.1" from your lines? Even if you deploy at your board edge, with a 24" scout move (moving flat out--fast, skimmer) I could probably reach you.

4x6 board

12" (edge of pitched deployment)+ up to 24" + 2" disembark +6" move +6" charge = 50" charge.

The problem with this strat isnt that it is easily avoided. The problem is that you need turn 1

The solution to the 1st turn Valk charge question is: Don't deploy.

IG player plays and deploys first, so when you see that Valk hit the front edge of the DZ, you don't deploy. Yes, it means you're then suffering at the hands of their Master of the Fleet, but at least you weren't charged, right?

Alternately, most of us play on rectangular tables so, if the IG deploys the Valks in a central position, if you deploy in the corners you should have just over 52" of distance between you and them along that diagonal. Give or take. It'd be a close run thing, but yeah.

Or just include a speed bump unit. Grots, Scouts, Kroot, whatever.

Sha1emade wrote:Termies can't ride in, rhino, razorback, chimera what rule suddenly lets them ride in a valkarie? If it comes back to it doesn't say I can't, I think you need a bit more, as there are presidents to think about.

Great, Obama's going to start regulating FAQ frequency now, too?

lol