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offtopic, why do people always post stupid pictures if they don't like the thread? I have a "back" button I press to exit the thread if I don't like it...

The internet lets you feel witty when in reality you're just recycling someone elses pictures (which were lame when they posted them also)

Well I personally think that stelek might be in the trap I saw often in competitive magic the gathering when I played that. People who were super competitive would build a deck that would absolutely wreck a certain matchup. Said deck would destroy most of other matchups. That player would then confidently go into a tourney expecting to not see certain lists, because they were supposedly bad. That player would then flip out when people played things they shouldn't be playing. It would ruin the meta, and give the "superior player" rough matches he wasn't expecting. He may be right, with perfect information people have no reason to play what they are playing. People rarely have even good information, and you shouldn't base what you play on what other people should be playing. At least not entirely. In this case Orks, whom should be weak in the 5th meta game, are a solid choice because people are slow to change their armies to a new rule set. Orks punish 4th edition and other non optimized lists. If that is what people are playing, then its a good choice. I'm not really good with the math behind game theory, but this is a pretty simple problem set. Personally I would just take an army that beats both orks and the 5th ed lists, because 5th ed lists and orks will take out the lists that beat mine. The various flavors of guard/inq give the largest pool to meta game with. Its no wonder that type of army is so strong in the meta. Dark eldar is another army that is pretty good at 5th ed.

That sums it up pretty well.. It helps if you've played any highly competitive CCG. The "jank" decks as they were called often won tournaments cause the "power decks" werent prepared for them

its amazing how one random card can mess them up

I think this is why you see armies like necrons doing something.. Granted its still a ton of IG and Orks but thats how WFB is too (replace IG with demons and orks with dark elves)

Wait are you comparing IG to daemons in fantasy?

Why not? They're both game-ruiningly, staggeringly broken armies that any idiot can win with... right? Right???

God I hate this board sometimes.

dumbuket wrote:Why not? They're both game-ruiningly, staggeringly broken armies that any idiot can win with... right? Right???

God I hate this board sometimes.

QFT. Not only are some posters stunningly and willingly obtuse, but seemingly lacking in humor as well.

Oh well.

I was at Sarigar's quarter-finals, and I won first with mechanized Orks. I added Deff Rollas to my list just before the tournament after the TO informed us that Deff Rollas were ok. To be fair, I *was* frothing at the teeth in hopes that they would fly around the table smacking into vehicles and causing mass ruination. In practice, it didn't happen.

Round 1: I faced mechanized IG. I lost one Battlewagon turn 1, and between my remaining two, only one got to smack into a tank, causing 3 hits, 1 glance, and a weapon destroyed result.

Round 2: I played Nidzilla...no vehicles there.

Round 3: I played against mechanized orks. Our vehicles never really got close to each other. Everyone jumped out and had carnage somewhat in the middle.

3 Deffrollas = 75 points. Total value over 3 games....one weapon destroyed. They're not wonderbread.
-------------------------------------
Because of GWs ruling on competition, I also participated in a second quarterfinal round, making quite the grueling weekend - Deff Rollas were not allowed, and despite my boarding planks and grabbin' klaws, I still didn't get to use them. I still took first place.

Round 1 (Scenario 3): I played against some weird Eldar. Almost all of his eldar were STR5 T6, and a couple of wraithguard monstrous creatures in there, and some howling banshees on foot, along with some infiltrating pathfinders and other nasty stuff. Capture and Control. He turtled, and attempted to slow play. Took 45 minutes to deploy his eldar. 2h 15m into the game, we're at the bottom of turn 2. The TO let us have a turn 3 because I complained. His turn 3 deep strike attempt to contest the objective on my half of the board scattered 8" away and failed, and I sent a squad of trukk boyz over to contest his; I had more killpoints and got a massacre. No vehicles, so no chance to do anything with Deff Rollas, boarding planks, or grabbin' klaws.

Round 2 (Scenario 1): I played against Tyranids: No vehicles there.

Round 3 (Scenario 2): I played against mechvet IG. Dawn of War, and he won the roll off, which is the absolute worst scenario and worst draw to play against mechvets with. He went first, I stayed completely in DoW reserves. You would think all that firepower would annihilate a mechanized list, but math *does* have an impact here.

Lets presume he's shooting at me with with a STR10 weapon at a battlewagon. He has a 50% chance to hit. That hit has a 50% chance to at least glance. I have a 50% chance of passing a cover save. If it gets through, that glance/penetrate has a 50% chance to do anything that I care about. That STR10 shot now has a statistical 6.25% chance of actually stopping my wagon. I've said this elsewhere....but mechanized IG don't scare me. When I first read the threads about them they did, but having had a chance to play against them....not scary.

Kirasu wrote:Stelek isnt exactly known for his ability to take disagreement without resorting to flipping out :p His advice isnt bad but I dont understand why he thinks orks are bad.. Tournaments are about MATCH UPS not god list vs god list..

I don't think that's what he's about at all; what he's essentially saying is, if competetive 40K became more competetive (i.e every player was running optimised lists and had a better overall understanding of the game), Orks wouldn't fare anywhere near as well as they currently do purely because there's so much their army list can't cope with. The current trend is clueless people bringing sad lists to tournaments and consequently Ork players roll them (I'm still trying to work out how exactly you make mech Space Wolves...), and in that sort of setting trying to claim the Orks are a good Codex is like trying to claim Nikolai Valuev is the best heavyweight in the world. Which is a good analogy, since Valuev and the Ork Codex are both lumbering, clumsy beasts who rely on their freakish nature to overwhelm opponents rather than outclassing them, and who struggle to deal with anything or anyone that has the finesse to punish their simplicity and one-dimensionality.

All that said... it's important to keep in mind the "most important rule" in the BRB; 40K is only worth playing as long as you're enjoying it and everyone has fun. I'll admit that, in some of my ravings, I tend to lose sight of that. At the end of the day the "metagame", if you will, of people bringing whatever list they have to hand to a tourney and playing it the way they want to is NOT going to change, and in that environment the Ork Codex's pick-up-and-mongle style of play becomes viable. Wether that's a good thing or a bad thing is a matter of personal opinion; personally I'm not massively bothered, as long as whatever trends develop allow 40K to keep going.

Dumbuket, keep it civil.

Some other posters: Keep the thread on-topic, please.

Thank you.

Frank Fugger wrote:

Kirasu wrote:Stelek isnt exactly known for his ability to take disagreement without resorting to flipping out :p His advice isnt bad but I dont understand why he thinks orks are bad.. Tournaments are about MATCH UPS not god list vs god list..

I don't think that's what he's about at all; what he's essentially saying is, if competetive 40K became more competetive (i.e every player was running optimised lists and had a better overall understanding of the game), Orks wouldn't fare anywhere near as well as they currently do purely because there's so much their army list can't cope with. The current trend is clueless people bringing sad lists to tournaments and consequently Ork players roll them (I'm still trying to work out how exactly you make mech Space Wolves...), and in that sort of setting trying to claim the Orks are a good Codex is like trying to claim Nikolai Valuev is the best heavyweight in the world. Which is a good analogy, since Valuev and the Ork Codex are both lumbering, clumsy beasts who rely on their freakish nature to overwhelm opponents rather than outclassing them, and who struggle to deal with anything or anyone that has the finesse to punish their simplicity and one-dimensionality.

All that said... it's important to keep in mind the "most important rule" in the BRB; 40K is only worth playing as long as you're enjoying it and everyone has fun. I'll admit that, in some of my ravings, I tend to lose sight of that. At the end of the day the "metagame", if you will, of people bringing whatever list they have to hand to a tourney and playing it the way they want to is NOT going to change, and in that environment the Ork Codex's pick-up-and-mongle style of play becomes viable. Wether that's a good thing or a bad thing is a matter of personal opinion; personally I'm not massively bothered, as long as whatever trends develop allow 40K to keep going.

In essence, math hammer with an escape clause; Ork players can only win b/c their opponents are clueless.

In reference to the mech Space Wolves: Mechanized Marines (of nearly any type) can be a competitive army. Never dismiss any army that you may not be familiar with. Folks did last year and 2 of our local players made it to the finals in Baltimore. Mech Blood Angels and pure Mech Sisters.

I believe some folks are not accounting for different playstyles in various regions of the country/world. After being able to play across the United States, I can definitely see variations in army lists as well as player skill level. I'm sure there are folks that are not very good 40k players and don't bring optimized army lists, but that has happened in every tournament, RTT, Indy, GT or otherwise. As you mentioned, this hasn't changed nor will it change in the forseeable future. Additionally, 40K is not really an optimized game system for tourneys. At the end of the day, I think with the right matchups, any codex in production has a chance to win any tourney, Ard Boyz or otherwise.

Besides, lets be frank about what the Ard Boyz is: an opportunity for GW to make money from folks who can buy more models to make for a 2500 point army they may not have been inclined to purchase otherwise. Call it whatever they want, I'll call a spade a spade. Not knocking them for it as it gave me the opportunity to enjoy my hobby.

Personally, I had 3 fun games with my greenskins. I most likely will bring them to the next round.

But, I've not played my Eldar in some time...

Sarigar, the funniest thing about the tournament was that there wasn't really any BO.

So rare to see that at a 40k event! =p

Frank Fugger wrote:

Kirasu wrote:Stelek isnt exactly known for his ability to take disagreement without resorting to flipping out :p His advice isnt bad but I dont understand why he thinks orks are bad.. Tournaments are about MATCH UPS not god list vs god list..

I don't think that's what he's about at all; what he's essentially saying is, if competetive 40K became more competetive (i.e every player was running optimised lists and had a better overall understanding of the game), Orks wouldn't fare anywhere near as well as they currently do purely because there's so much their army list can't cope with. The current trend is clueless people bringing sad lists to tournaments and consequently Ork players roll them (I'm still trying to work out how exactly you make mech Space Wolves...), and in that sort of setting trying to claim the Orks are a good Codex is like trying to claim Nikolai Valuev is the best heavyweight in the world. Which is a good analogy, since Valuev and the Ork Codex are both lumbering, clumsy beasts who rely on their freakish nature to overwhelm opponents rather than outclassing them, and who struggle to deal with anything or anyone that has the finesse to punish their simplicity and one-dimensionality.

All that said... it's important to keep in mind the "most important rule" in the BRB; 40K is only worth playing as long as you're enjoying it and everyone has fun. I'll admit that, in some of my ravings, I tend to lose sight of that. At the end of the day the "metagame", if you will, of people bringing whatever list they have to hand to a tourney and playing it the way they want to is NOT going to change, and in that environment the Ork Codex's pick-up-and-mongle style of play becomes viable. Wether that's a good thing or a bad thing is a matter of personal opinion; personally I'm not massively bothered, as long as whatever trends develop allow 40K to keep going.

Maybe that's the way orks are supposed to be played. Whereas Eldar are a finely tipped rapier, orks are a meat cleaver. The list is designed to be smashmouth. There are guys out there that were winning GTs with the 3rd edition codex. That is saying something about the players considering what a turd that book was.

The only ork players I saw winning were doing so with the feral ork list which was not a fair comparison due to how overpowered it was when compared to the real ork book

3 BS3 TL rokkits for 150 pts? yes please

I know who you are talking about. I don't mean him. There is a guy from the Pacific Northwest who stomped a lot of ass with the 3rd edition codex at GTs as well as a guy from Birmingham Alabama. I'm not dropping names, because when that happens here their names usually get drug through the mud. There was also a guy from England that used a footslogging list to win one of the U.K. heats a few years back. I'll never say that the ork codex (the old one or the new one) is made of win. And I agree to a point with some of what Frank Fugger says about people getting wiped because they refuse to adapt their lists. But it's crazy to say that there is some kind of nationwide simultaneous fluke causing the ork army to be doing so well at the Ardboyz. The ork book is different from say the space marine codex. That's good. If all the races did the exact same thing, we might as well be playing checkers.

It's not a case of a nationwide simultaneous fluke. It'd have to be a nationwide simultaneous fluke that's been going on since 3rd Edition at least (to my knowledge). It's more a case that the standard of competetive play in 40K is poor, and as such you can turn up to tournaments and win with pretty much any Codex.

The question is will that ever change? The answer is no, because it's a tabletop wargame and is a social activity rather than a proper competetive thing. It might change if competetive 40K ever becomes lucrative and tourney winners end up getting the sort of Fabulous Prizes that Smash TV! could only dream of handing out, but for some reaosn I don't see that occurring.

Sarigar wrote:In essence, math hammer with an escape clause; Ork players can only win b/c their opponents are clueless.

Preach it, brother

In reference to the mech Space Wolves: Mechanized Marines (of nearly any type) can be a competitive army. Never dismiss any army that you may not be familiar with.

I'm familiar with Space Wolves; they're a concept army, the concept being "WOARGH MOVE CHARGE LOTS OF DICE". You don't get lots of dice when you're trading in wounds for Rhinos, and they're too expensive to horde-up in a Black Templars stylee.

Folks did last year and 2 of our local players made it to the finals in Baltimore. Mech Blood Angels and pure Mech Sisters.

... both of which drastically different beasts to mech Space Wolves in a large variety of ways. Give them enough Faith Points and Sisters will cause problems for anyone, and Mech Blangels are basically Rhino-Rush Marines with one Emo Assault Squad that Rends in CC.

I believe some folks are not accounting for different playstyles in various regions of the country/world. After being able to play across the United States, I can definitely see variations in army lists as well as player skill level. I'm sure there are folks that are not very good 40k players and don't bring optimized army lists, but that has happened in every tournament, RTT, Indy, GT or otherwise. As you mentioned, this hasn't changed nor will it change in the forseeable future. Additionally, 40K is not really an optimized game system for tourneys. At the end of the day, I think with the right matchups, any codex in production has a chance to win any tourney, Ard Boyz or otherwise.

That's basically what I said, only slightly more couched in diplomacy. And it sort of ignores the thorny issue that Orks need the match-ups more than most other Dexes do; which, as we've already established, they'll continue to get until competetive 40K gets more competetive.

Which it won't, because it's a tabletop wargame.

Besides, lets be frank about what the Ard Boyz is: an opportunity for GW to make money from folks who can buy more models to make for a 2500 point army they may not have been inclined to purchase otherwise. Call it whatever they want, I'll call a spade a spade. Not knocking them for it as it gave me the opportunity to enjoy my hobby.

Personally, I had 3 fun games with my greenskins. I most likely will bring them to the next round.

But, I've not played my Eldar in some time...

Don't cop out now; you went through the first round with the Orks, why not crack on and keep going?

I must say that I am completely impressed by Frank's tenacity.

2 threads later, as well as several ork 'Ard Boys wins, and he still insists that Orks are not a strong dex. Nevermind all of the tourneys that they have won over the last year; nevermind that most reputable sites/players list Orks as one of the top 2 codexes; nevermind that he has no physical proof or statistics to back up his claim; Frank still insists that Orks are noobhammers - just because he doesn't like them.

I gotta respect a guy who sticks to his beliefs even though there is nothing backing him up...it shows that he has intestinal fortitude; he's the kind of guy that will never give in to peer pressure.

Now, as much as I resepct Frank for not giving up the ship, he is unfortunately wrong.

Statistics and tournaments over the past year have proven Orks to be strong. Claiming that they only win because other players are noobs is just insulting. In fact, it is far more insulting to every player who doesn't run Orks than it is to Ork players, especially with the ammount of RTTs, Ard Boys events, and GTs that Orks have won during the last year.

To say that the only way for a person to lose to Orks is by either having a poor list or by being a complete noob is a pretty stong statement, and all non-ork players who have ever lost to Orks should be offended by it.

Yes, Orks require little finesse to use. Some people find that distateful; however, others find it rather entertaining. The great thing about different codexes is that they allow you to play different types of armies.

Eldar are a razor; Orks are a sledgehammer. However, there is room for both of ends of the spectrum in 40k. Don't think that just because Orks aren't subtle that they are not capable. When properly applied, both brute force and finesse can be equally effective.

Personally, I find it refreshing that there is at least some variety left in 40k, since it has become ever increasingly more bland since the advent of 4th, when all the armies/chapters/craftwords/etc started to resemble each other more and more.

*edited for typos

I'm a sledgehammer player myself. Go Guard and Orks!

Well said, Alerian.

This reminds me of the state of air combat in WW2. Near the end of the war the Nazis soldiered on with largely outdated and inferior designs of planes punctuated with the occasional brilliant design like the Me262 and FW-190D. Despite all this, the most feared pilot in the Luftwaffe was Erich Hartmann... who flew a Bf-109. The plane was vile handling on the ground by all accounts and was not the most maneuverable thing in the air. What it did possess was an unprecedented power-weight ratio giving it superior climb and dive characteristics. Hartmann used this to his advantage by tailoring tactics to surprise attacks. Most pilots that he shot down didn't even know he was there until their planes were shot from around them. Hartmann achieved a still unbroken record of 352 kills, over 250 of which were fighter type aircraft. He used a second string fighter plane while doing so.

I am reminded of the words of Chuck Yeager... "It's not the plane, it's the pilot". They suit well here.

It's not the Codex... it's the player.

If Chuck Norris had been around, Hartmann wouldn't have achieved that record. Srsly.

*looks around furtively*

Didn't mean to crack that joke, meant to make a serious observation here: I consider myself to be a finesse, razor type Ork player. How dare you impugn my razor sharp eldarish tactics with a sledgehammer comparison!

@ Alerian

Well put.

I'm not sure why FF has chosen to take this position. Most Dakkites disagree with him, excpet for a few other's, in the vocal minority. I will say that I love the concept of Orks. I love the comical, random, no real sense of purpose, except to move forward and Bash em'. The fact thay they have a good codex and lots of plastic, is just icing, as I think I would play them either way. I agree that the insinuation that Orks are a Noob army is kind of insulting. I've been playing off and on for almost 10 years now.

By the way I love the sig!! ......edit..I mean your avatar!


GG

Alerian wrote:2 threads later, as well as several ork 'Ard Boys wins, and he still insists that Orks are not a strong dex.

Are the Tyranids a strong Codex? What about Daemonhunters? I've seen a couple of 'Ard Boyz where those armies did well too, and I'm sure a lot of Necrons players have walked away with results in more than their share of tournaments over the years. There's actually a thread on Librarium Online where some bloke won a Brazilian GT playing a Necrons list.

Remind me again; which armies are supposedly alongside Orks in this... "tier 3" thing? Is it all of the above? It's all of the above, isn't it? So what, then, is the difference between these other Codexes that can, and indeed do, place well in heats and tournaments and the Orks, who win them?

Yes, Orks require little finesse to use.

There we have it. This is something that can't be said about any other Codex which is deemed uncompetetive.

I don't mind the Orks. They're fun. That's good, because in games like 40K it's not hard for the universe to take itself far too seriously. I also have nothing against people who play them, and to be Frank I'm not particularly bothered if people want to tell me they're a competetive Codex. They are. Where we differ is in reasoning why that is. You say it's because they're an awesome army. I say it's the opposite; they're good because most of the stuff they're pitted against is not. Yes they're competeteive, but we all know it's not because their army list is the strongest or because the Codex is good (Ork players complain about both constantly), and if the Orks require little finesse to use it can't be because the person behind the models is a great player, because that's contradictory. Why does such a simple tool require a skilled hand to use?

It's not a question of adopting a position or being tenacious. I'm calling things as I see them, and how I'm sure a lot of Ork players would too if they wiped the green stuff from their eyes and took a step back. Of course most Dakkaites are going to disagree with me; it's an Ork forum after-all, innit? Clue is in the name, I think. If you find it insulting then I'd say you're a bit too emotionally attached to the Orks to see things objectively, in which case feel free to ignore everything I say from this point on.

I'm not going to stop saying it, though

Alerian wrote:I must say that I am completely impressed by Frank's tenacity.

2 threads later, as well as several ork 'Ard Boys wins, and he still insists that Orks are not a strong dex. Nevermind all of the tourneys that they have won over the last year; nevermind that most reputable sites/players list Orks as one of the top 2 codexes; nevermind that he has no physical proof or statistics to back up his claim; Frank still insists that Orks are noobhammers - just because he doesn't like them.

I gotta respect a guy who sticks to his beliefs even though there is nothing backing him up...it shows that he has intestinal fortitude; he's the kind of guy that will never give in to peer pressure.

Now, as much as I resepct Frank for not giving up the ship, he is unfortunately wrong.

Statistics and tournaments over the past year have proven Orks to be strong. Claiming that they only win because other players are noobs is just insulting. In fact, it is far more insulting to every player who doesn't run Orks than it is to Ork players, especially with the ammount of RTTs, Ard Boys events, and GTs that Orks have won during the last year.

To say that the only way for a person to lose to Orks is by either having a poor list or by being a complete noob is a pretty stong statement, and all non-ork players who have ever lost to Orks should be offended by it.

Yes, Orks require little finesse to use. Some people find that distateful; however, others find it rather entertaining. The great thing about different codexes is that they allow you to play different types of armies.

Eldar are a razor; Orks are a sledgehammer. However, there is room for both of ends of the spectrum in 40k. Don't think that just because Orks aren't subtle that they are not capable. When properly applied, both brute force and finesse can be equally effective.

Personally, I find it refreshing that there is at least some variety left in 40k, since it has become ever increasingly more bland since the advent of 4th, when all the armies/chapters/craftwords/etc started to resemble each other more and more.

*edited for typos

Pretty much summed up everything.

Btw, just curious : Why is everyone so bothered by Frank Fugger? Just ignore his comments (since I seriously think they are WORTHLESS anyway), and we can continue the discussion from there.
Perhaps, change the topic to : The Weaknesses of Orks . And yes, continue the discussion and ignore worthless comments.

Davicus wrote:The Weaknesses of Orks

Shall we start from AV14 and just keep on going, or have we already done that one to death?

Sarigar wrote:I know. I'll let it be. He's the big fish in his small pond.

I like this

Frank Fugger wrote:

Davicus wrote:The Weaknesses of Orks

Shall we start from AV14 and just keep on going, or have we already done that one to death?

Frank....I think you're missing out on the bigger picture. Yes....AV14 is annoying to Ork players. It isn't a show stopper. Every time I see a land raider in a game, I pop it just because I can. I've yet to run up against 4+ land raiders in a single game, but I've taken down 3 in a game with nothing more than nobs with powerklaws, and Ghazghkull's powerklaw.

I cart around a full squad of tankbustas now, along with bomb squigs, and grabbin' klaws, boarding planks, and I'll have Deff Rollas for semi-finals. (6+2D6 Strength) x15 = dead land raider.

Yeah. AV14 is annoying, but if my opponent is carting around land raiders, that's a lot of points they aren't putting into more scary things. Just because Orks don't have lascannons and railguns doesn't mean that they can't come up with another way of dealing with land raiders.

Yeah like zzaap guns, wrecking balls, massed rokkits, DNCCW's etc.etc.. Ork players have many options they can use to adjust to a shifting metagame.

GG

Yup, lascannons and melta guns are not the only way to pop AV14.

Yup, lascannons and melta guns are not the only way to pop AV14.

Let's not side-track the thread into a debate about who can and can't do what to AV14, eh? I know I started it but I shouldn't have; it was a stupid comment to make, one that I'm not going to delete but instead leave up there for posterity to show that Frank can be an idiot and respond to trolls too