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I disagree that Lootas kill MechDar. I don't know what dice you use, but even 15 hits a turn is still only 5 rolls on the damage table - half of those Glances that can't destroy my lovely AV12 vehicle. Assuming you get to shoot, because I have Prisms.

DeffKoptas can be outmanoeuvred, easily. Dark Eldar have more difficulty against Lootas, in theory. That's why they deploy in the corner of the board, where Night Shields make you too far away.

Manticores hide behind Chimeras against Lootas.
45 Shots, 15 Hits, 2 Glance, 3 Pen (being kind) - ignore a Glance (woop) and one of the pens (again, kind), you've got a 1/3 chance to destroy me with 2 Rolls.

Unless I model my Manticore properly, with no turret, in which case I can see and shoot you from behind a Chimera, you can't draw LOS to a gun, so cannot return fire. Also, Manticores, obviously, kill Lootas easier than they get killed by them.

Seer Councils, in theory, can be torrented by Ork Shooting, I concede. That's not something the Eldar player should allow, however. Smacks of poor decision-making to let them be shot more than once - and before the Prisms open up on the Lootas - Shootas CAN do it alone, but I wouldn't put money on their chances.

Orks have virtually no chance to Pen a mobile LR. They should never encounter a Mono, so it's no issue.

I contend that FoC Saturation is a weakness in the Dex, and in Phil Kelly's writing in general.

Maybe its a fluke but I have seen lootaspam kill anything that wasnt av 13 or higher. This coming from multiple ork players. Again it may be a fluke or maybe quality players using the ork codex.

Quality of players doesn't affect dice rolls, unless they're cheating.

I just told you the odds above - they're slim - even at 45 shots they've got under a probability of 1 @ destroying an AV12 - it actually takes 2 units to make it up to it, 3 if they fire 15 times each. At the same time, I have 2/3 Fire Prisms wounding them on 3+ and killing what they hit. I have a 60" range, and deploy in the corner.

In addition, I deploy similar to this (apologies for poor pic quality, best I can find at short notice) - - cramming 9 Grav Tanks (@1750) into 2 square foot of board isn't easy - but they are all at different heights, and thus confer cover saves upon the Prisms. That makes the odds no better than those of the Manticore being shot.

It could well be instead that the quality of the Ork players you saw was greater than the Eldar players.

WOSH = / = Supreme Eldar Tactics.
Basic Eldar 101, yes.

You noobs should try to improve yourself on the table rather than theorizing. Your theories (to you they are theories, to me they are rubbish) are going to get you to nowhere.

Look up theory in the dictionary. Seriously. Might wanna rethink your terminology if you don't want to lend credence to our arguments.

Also, for the (hopefully) last time, I play often, and have played over 100 times with Orks in 5th. If your comment is levelled at Frank, Danny, and not me, then please make this clear before posting.

Note: I only assume it's directed at me/us, because of my vague memory of your previous...uh...'contribution'...to the thread. For all we know, you're addressing the whole of Dakka, and indeed the Universe, as noob.

Elessar wrote:I play often, and have played over 100 (ONLY?) times with Orks in 5th.

Alright, then I suppose my comment "noob" was meant for you

Yeah, I gave up on playing Orks in February when I realised they were one-dimensional, predictable, and unable to stand against the other races balanced lists.

I say in February...but I'd entered them into a league, so I had to wait until it was over before I could drop that huge Green stone, and play a competitive list.

Sadly, months of sucking meant my early MechDar lists paled in comparison to the shining jewel I play now...but, I'm totally over my addiction to cOrkaine, and in full-on rehab.

Now, my 10,000 points only come out for Apoc...although, if it helps, I'll do BatReps to display how crap Orks are. In September. This thread can easily sustain itself until then.

i really love my ork army. ive been playing with them in various incarnations since rogue trader and i have played a fair few games with them over the years of my green addiction. i have also collected, painted and gamed with just about every army in the system at one time or another over the past 22 years and have competed in more tourneys than i care to remember both as a customer and a staff member.

without wanting to blow my own trumpet, i think this qualifies me as knowing what im talking about when it comes to all things 40k.

the fact of the matter is, that orks just dont compete against good players with good lists. i can play any one of several regular opponents with any one of my armies and be virtually guaranteed to come out on top, but the army i have most experience playing just cant deal with high level competion. ive seen lots of new players get beaten by orks as they dont know how to deal with the number of models, and i have seen veteran players trounced by them because they insisted on bringing a 4th ed anti meq list full of plasma and get swamped.
i think that in time, we will see orks start to slide off the scale as people are forced to adapt.

remember guys, im no ork hater, but i think too many greenskins on here believe that loota spam and deffrollas are the answer to everything.

@ orkish: thanks for the most pointless piece of trolling in an already shaky thread. your teachers must be proud to have produced an individual capable of such well thought out arguments as yourself...

Pringles978 - I agree with everything you said.

Elessar wrote:
In addition, I deploy similar to this (apologies for poor pic quality, best I can find at short notice) - - cramming 9 Grav Tanks (@1750) into 2 square foot of board isn't easy - but they are all at different heights, and thus confer cover saves upon the Prisms.
Basic Eldar 101, yes.

I would love to see that deployment when using my Ghaz Battlewagon spam. Even running away 24" in turn 2 would not save you. And that is even without Deff Rolla's.

Elessar wrote:Quality of players doesn't affect dice rolls, unless they're cheating.

I just told you the odds above - they're slim - even at 45 shots they've got under a probability of 1 @ destroying an AV12 - it actually takes 2 units to make it up to it, 3 if they fire 15 times each. At the same time, I have 2/3 Fire Prisms wounding them on 3+ and killing what they hit. I have a 60" range, and deploy in the corner.

In addition, I deploy similar to this (apologies for poor pic quality, best I can find at short notice) - - cramming 9 Grav Tanks (@1750) into 2 square foot of board isn't easy - but they are all at different heights, and thus confer cover saves upon the Prisms. That makes the odds no better than those of the Manticore being shot.

It could well be instead that the quality of the Ork players you saw was greater than the Eldar players.

WOSH = / = Supreme Eldar Tactics.
Basic Eldar 101, yes.

Wow...that deployment is pathetic. It just screams to be bait for so many things in 40k, even things in the Ork dex.

Say goodbye to at least 3 WS on the first turn to Koptas asaulting rear armor, if the Ork player goes first/siezes. Add another 2 more WS at least being stunned or imobilzed (even if not destroyed outright) to Loota fire. So congratulations, you will be able to use less than 1/2 of your tanks on your first turn... awesome!

As an Eldar player myself I have to say that that is the worst deployment for Mechdar that I have ever seen...you are far better off starting those skimmers in reserve. That looks more like a Chimera spam deployment than a good Mechdar deployment.

Fearspect wrote:The question is not how good a player is, or if lucky match-ups occured, etc. The questions that should be asked is simply this:

1) Do Orks have the tools do deal with everything they need to in a competitive environment; and

2) If yes, do they have these tools in the abundance that other armies do?

[....]

Ork opposers: Similarly, stop attacking player bases at nonsense 'tournaments'. Take a look at what the codex has to offer.

A lot of people seem to think that my opinion that Orks win stuff because their opponents suck came from seeing them win stuff and assuming that their opponents must suck purely because I don't like the Codex. The opposite is the case; I've been rummaging around the Codex for a while now, and have done moreso since I decided to take them to the UK GT. I built at least 12 army lists out of the Codex for my grand experiment, and ended up so frustrated by the sheer god-awful suckiness of every last list I threw together I ended up abandoning the idea in favour of taking my Smurfs instead. Every unit in the Ork Codex has clear and obvious applications against [x] [y] and [z], yet would be absolutely helpless if [a] [b] and/ or [c] showed up on the table; or alternatively relies on the dice rolling right to be awesome. The Daemons Codex has much the same problem. So does the Tyranids one, and the Daemonhunters one, and the Necrons one. The Eldar Codex does not. Neither does the Smurf Codex, the Guard Codex, the Tau Codex or the Witch Hunters Codex. Those Codexes contain a lot of flavour units and random fun units, but they also contain units that you can put on the table and trust to get things done. None of the other Codexes have that; they're either made up entirely of flavour/ fun units (Orks, Daemons), or their army is structured in such a way that it simply cannot provide counters to the problems a hard 5th Edition list will throw at it (Necrons, Daemonhunters, Tyranids).

That's why these Codexes aren't competetive in any meaningful way, and why they will only do well so long as their opponents continue to bring poor, unoptimised lists to tournaments. According to the Ork Codex the answer to question one is a resounding "no", and that makes question two irrelevant.

pringles978 wrote:i really love my ork army. ive been playing with them in various incarnations since rogue trader and i have played a fair few games with them over the years of my green addiction. i have also collected, painted and gamed with just about every army in the system at one time or another over the past 22 years and have competed in more tourneys than i care to remember both as a customer and a staff member.

without wanting to blow my own trumpet, i think this qualifies me as knowing what im talking about when it comes to all things 40k.

the fact of the matter is, that orks just dont compete against good players with good lists. i can play any one of several regular opponents with any one of my armies and be virtually guaranteed to come out on top, but the army i have most experience playing just cant deal with high level competion. ive seen lots of new players get beaten by orks as they dont know how to deal with the number of models, and i have seen veteran players trounced by them because they insisted on bringing a 4th ed anti meq list full of plasma and get swamped.
i think that in time, we will see orks start to slide off the scale as people are forced to adapt.

remember guys, im no ork hater, but i think too many greenskins on here believe that loota spam and deffrollas are the answer to everything.

@ orkish: thanks for the most pointless piece of trolling in an already shaky thread. your teachers must be proud to have produced an individual capable of such well thought out arguments as yourself...

You, sir, are The Man.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

methoderik wrote:I would love to see that deployment when using my Ghaz Battlewagon spam. Even running away 24" in turn 2 would not save you. And that is even without Deff Rolla's.

At 1750 your Wagons are dead by turn 2 and your infantry is being pounded with Prism blasts. Guaranteed. No, seriously; guaranteed. Lance weapons hate you. Oh no wait but then comes the WAAAGH! and... oh dear, where are the Skimmers?!

Alerian wrote:Say goodbye to at least 3 WS on the first turn to Koptas asaulting rear armor, if the Ork player goes first/siezes.

Myself, I'd credit The King with a bit more nous than to deploy no blockers or stoppers if there's a chance some Jetbiking nutter is going to get in and mangle his rear AV. The fact he's stacked his flank and hasn't taken the blow-ass route of deploying all-reserve suggests he knows what he's doing.

Add another 2 more WS at least being stunned or imobilzed (even if not destroyed outright) to Loota fire.

Roll some 5-6es, roll some more 5-6es, roll some MORE 5-6es, roll SOME MORE 5-6es, and all is good. And I've STILL got Skimmers to kill you with

As an Eldar player myself I have to say that that is the worst deployment for Mechdar that I have ever seen

But, but, but, it's a solid block deployment that maximises the resilience of each vehicle against shooting, and...

...you are far better off starting those skimmers in reserve.

Oh right, you're one of THOSE people. Always amuses me how people equate all-reserve with insta-pwn, yet when they see a stacked flank they're all like, "OMG U SUCK". Maybe I do, but at least my oppo isn't going to be able to pick my army off one unit at a time when it comes in piecemeal.

What a ridiculous thread. Orks are damn strong at lower point levels; they kill things to death. Nob bikers are competitive and will remain so. The ork codex is not as invincible as weak players claimed it was six months ago but it is strong and generally well rounded.

I just noticed something...

Frank Fugger -> England
Elesar -> England
Pringles978 -> England

Coincidence? Let the reader decide.

@Frank: Spot on answer. Try to keep in mind that that last post I wrote is pointed to everyone reading/commenting on this thread. I just want people to put some thought in before posting, and thus adding to the discussion. You have consistently done that.

@Olympia: My question to you is: Why?

Fearspect wrote:@Frank: Spot on answer. Try to keep in mind that that last post I wrote is pointed to everyone reading/commenting on this thread. I just want people to put some thought in before posting, and thus adding to the discussion. You have consistently done that.

@Olympia: My question to you is: Why?

Why is there some Eldar player posting pictures of his silly deployment? Hell if I know...

I asked because you took the time to write a post that said nothing. Now you have two.

Dont worry fearspect, most of this thread is making statements that are very broad on both sides.

Frank can say Orks lose to an optimized list and thats all I have to say

Other people will go "no they kill stuff"

I mean this all assuming were going back to 4th edition where most of the missions were VP based but in 5th its more about Objective based. You dont need to kill much at all to win a game of objectives. Mech Eldar are a great testament to that along with Orks.

I play orks, they were my first army. I probably have played just about every somewhat serious configuration there is. Here is what I have figured out about the current book:

Lootas are a good unit for the points, they are not overpowered. They can do their job well. That being said, any opponent with 2 brain cells to rub together can handle them in any numbers.

Regular nobs suck. They cost a large number of points. They are really only good in CC, thus requiring transport. They have sketchy armor, you pay out the nose for 4+/5+ with feel no pain. The cost of them means that the enemy can torrent them to death.

Boyz (truck or horde) suck. They can torrent people still playing foot lists, and they can beat people who bring las/plas, but vs templates or lash, they don't do anything. In combat they have a good chance of wiping a sqaud, but if they don't kill each and every model, they lose to combat resolution. And lose even more boyz. The 5ed fearless rule killed the boy mob. After 1 turn of combat, you won't have anything worth your time. Ork truk mobs at least are designed with this in mind.

Burnas need transport, and are strong unit if you can get them one. Its a bit difficult, since they can't take a dedicated one. They are a one dimensional unit, for anti infantry. Not exactly needed for orks. (since that is all they can do)

Tankbustas COULD have been decent. If they could get a Dedicated transport. If they didn't have an idiot fluff rule. If they had a guardsman's ballistic skill. To many ifs.

the ork jet bike is terrible. Sure then can be in your opponents face turn 1, and have BS2 TL rokkits.... but the sad thing is that they only hit 50%, vs AV11 (a rhino) they only pen 50%, and 50% do they do what you want (immobile is the goal) I'm not the best at probabilities, but isn't that a 12.5 percent chance to hurt a weak dedicated transport? VS AV12 (which is common i hear) Its even worse. Since you are S7 on the charge if you take buzzsaws, rear AV10 is actually not a gimme. Esp if the opponent remembers there is wheels/tracks on that tank of his. I just don't see why people think they are good. Esp at 70 points for that. At that point level space marines get land speaders with MM and HF.

The warbuggies aren't bad. 30 points for a TL big shoota on a mobile AV10 platform? That's not bad at all. Still, its more anti infantry in a list that doesn't really need it. A good value at least.

Warbikes: not terrible, they cost a little too much IMHO. The number of S5 shooting these guys can put out is nice. Since they aren't the greatest in combat, they fill the same roll as warbuggies. The lower range, is balanced out by the being ok in combat.

Storm boyz. A boyz mob that can actually get across the board while still being an effective unit? yes please! Keep in mind they are effectively a fast mob, that is capped at 20. They get the job done only if your opponent isn't used to them.

Killa Kans: Not terrible. ok BS and the ability to take blast weapons means they are actually decent fire platforms. Don't make the mistake of thinking they are decent in combat. They can crush troop squads in CC, but who can't? VS real CC units, they get obliterated.

DD: bad BS means he is a CC unit, maybe with skorchas. 4 CC weapons is actually a scary unit, if you can get it up the board. Again, this requires either luck, or the lack of skill on the opponents side.

Big guns, flash gits, looted wagons suck so bad I'm not going to cover them. (though cannons aren't bad)

Battle wagons are decent, and your only chance at reliably getting certain units up the board. The upgrades are mostly just points inflation for idiots. There are a couple of exceptions, like if an organizers says Deffrollas work on vehicles. Its not too bad to buy extra weapons if you plan on using it as a dakka bunker. A solid unit as long you don't spend too much on it.

Mega nobs are probably my favorite sleeper unit. They die to AP2, but if you take small throw away units of them, or give them a Mega armor warboss (or the big guy), they can really tear things up if given transport. Since they are massed PK, and have a chance of surviving vs most normal units, they can actually take down transports that remember to move. Since they have 2+ saves, and multiple wounds, it takes quite a torrent of fire to off them. They are also cheaper than how some people run their regular nobs. (and much cheaper than biker nobs)

Biker nobs are an army by themselves. They cost so many points, you have no room for anything else that matters. The being said, if you are lucky to face off vs an opponent who either A: doesn't know how to beat them, or B: his list/codex CAN'T beat them. You are in good shape. It can give the better lists out their a run for their money, but they aren't what they used to be when they first hit the scene. Still a solid respectable army, just not the uber cheese is was a few months ago.

Gretchen are the best troop choice. A specialist unit that is the best at doing what it does in the game: cheap cannon fodder, or cheap large scoring unit. These little 3 point wonders even have the dubious ability to clear mine fields, an ability that is not reflected in the point cost! Attempts at humor aside, they are the best scoring unit orks have, who is honestly going to try and attack gretchen until they have too?

Kommandos are a good unit, a great unit if they have the special character upgrade.

Other than the weird boy, all the HQ units have a good use. The stand outs being the KFF, and the warboss. Special characters are a bit lame (IMHO), but the big guy, and wazzdakka are great.

So the units worth taking IMHO are: lootas, gretchin, KK and DD, cannons, battle wagons, meganobs, stormboyz, biker nobs, warbuggies, Kommandos, and burnas.

My conclusions:

Fast attack and elite sections are stuffed with units that are good, the elite has too many that you actually really need. If you want lootas, you need multiple units, which means you don't get nobs unless you take warbosses, which means you don't get the KFF. And if you take lootas in the proper numbers, there is no room for kommandos at all. None of the good units can handle heavy armor at range. Only a couple of the good units are actually decent in CC. Most of the units that are worth taking are almost as pricey as a space marine or SoB, or more so. Orks don't get BS 4, 3+ armor, or good leadership. The only points break orks get are on units that are just terrible. Add in no access to melta weapons and poor anti armor in general, I just don't see how they can do well vs a proper 5th ed list.

What they can do is beat up on 4th lists, people who are new to the game, or people who brought an unbalanced list that is weak vs what you brought. (and of course, they beat fluff bunnies)

Event results are a poor indication of how good an army is. Most people who attend, are not as serious about winning as many would think. Quite a few players just show up to have fun, or play with armies they have, not the ones they want. A decent amount of people are really there for the painting competitions.

Quite a few events have a wonky pairing system. Any event which uses soft scores for pairing, or doesn't use random first round pairings is suspect. (and I personally think that a cut to a top 4-8 playoff after swiss pairings is best) What the results are useful for: what armies are being played, and what you should take if you are serous about beating them. If people refuse to bring hard lists to a tourney, then you should show up with a list that beats them. Orks are competitive vs the armies that show up in large numbers at event. They aren't competitive when large numbers of 5th ed mech show up. (were this to actually happen that is)

Sorry about the wall of text, I just figured it would better to just most of thoughts about the subject into one post, than to post multiple times.

Frank Fugger wrote:
At 1750 your Wagons are dead by turn 2 and your infantry is being pounded with Prism blasts. Guaranteed. No, seriously; guaranteed. Lance weapons hate you. Oh no wait but then comes the WAAAGH! and... oh dear, where are the Skimmers?!

Hardly. I bring 4 at minimum. Armor 14, granted against a lance means you need to hit, glance on 4's (I am still moving) and get by my KFF. And you only have 1.5 turns to do it. Sorry, you can't bring enough twin linked lances to that party in 1750, especially if your date is Fire Prisms.

If your that huddled in a corner I just deploy the farthest out I can in a spearhead formation, suck up turn one shooting if have to and then spread my formation to make sure your turn 2 move (are you gonna shoot or move?) will keep you in my 14-27" charge range in turn 2. If you pop some BW's in turn two it really does not matter, cause you shot and my charge at a minimum is going to extend at least 14". That is if you go first.

At that point your rear armor is going to pay.

It could go either way depending on the dice, but far, far from "guaranteed".

At this point in the debate, you guys are going to think what your going to think. I guess I can only hope I draw you at a tournament.

Notabot- I agree with everything you said. I just think the topic has been beaten to death and everything you posted has already been covered (albiet less succinctly, less articulately, and with a more obnoxious tone) by frank fugger.

methoderik wrote:

Frank Fugger wrote:
At 1750 your Wagons are dead by turn 2 and your infantry is being pounded with Prism blasts. Guaranteed. No, seriously; guaranteed. Lance weapons hate you. Oh no wait but then comes the WAAAGH! and... oh dear, where are the Skimmers?!

Hardly. I bring 4 at minimum. Armor 14, granted against a lance means you need to hit, glance on 4's (I am still moving) and get by my KFF. And you only have 1.5 turns to do it. Sorry, you can't bring enough twin linked lances to that party in 1750, especially if your date is Fire Prisms.

If your that huddled in a corner I just deploy the farthest out I can in a spearhead formation, suck up turn one shooting if have to and then spread my formation to make sure your turn 2 move (are you gonna shoot or move?) will keep you in my 14-27" charge range in turn 2. If you pop some BW's in turn two it really does not matter, cause you shot and my charge at a minimum is going to extend at least 14". That is if you go first.

At that point your rear armor is going to pay.

It could go either way depending on the dice, but far, far from "guaranteed".

At this point in the debate, you guys are going to think what your going to think. I guess I can only hope I draw you at a tournament.

Could you post your 1750 4 Battlewagon list?

I deployed second. The opponent spread his force out somewhat, knowing I would just refuse the other flank.

If you deploy your Battlewagons first, then I deploy the other side/in Reserve.

If you go first with Koptas, I won't be close enough for you to hit.

PLEASE stop assuming I'm an idiot, huh?

Also, I live in Northern Ireland, not England.


NotaBot, I love you too.

Methoderik, count my Lances. Then, add in what you can't see, 15 Fire Dragons, and Yriel. Plenty to kill BWs with there. Especially when I'm actually shooting you in the side.

@Olympia: On a serious note, if possible, are you going to the Irish GT? Since I intend to go, and will likely play Eldar, perhaps it is YOU who can put their money etc.

methoderik wrote:

Frank Fugger wrote:
At 1750 your Wagons are dead by turn 2 and your infantry is being pounded with Prism blasts. Guaranteed. No, seriously; guaranteed. Lance weapons hate you. Oh no wait but then comes the WAAAGH! and... oh dear, where are the Skimmers?!

Hardly. I bring 4 at minimum. Armor 14, granted against a lance means you need to hit, glance on 4's (I am still moving) and get by my KFF. And you only have 1.5 turns to do it. Sorry, you can't bring enough twin linked lances to that party in 1750, especially if your date is Fire Prisms.

Actually it's pretty easy for Wave Serpents to wall off your battle wagons and trap them in a small area. Then you're stuck with the [gakky] choice of disembarking to whack away at SMF or trying to ram your way out... even if Deffrollas work you're still not going to get all those serpents out of the way in a single turn; meanwhile the prisms have shot far away and are still peppering you with blasts. He can split his force and be effective, you can't.

Serpent spam Eldar are very good at dealing with Big Rock armies like BW spam and Raider spam. And BW Orks basically have to play as a Big Rock army because if you try splitting them off you lose KFF and become vulnerable to shooting.

olympia wrote:What a ridiculous thread. Orks are damn strong at lower point levels; they kill things to death. Nob bikers are competitive and will remain so. The ork codex is not as invincible as weak players claimed it was six months ago but it is strong and generally well rounded.

I have also crushed nob bikers with necrons multiple times in 5th ed. What does that say about necrons?

Absolutely nothing. 'Crons are weak in 5th ed. Of course, I have since sold my necron army to said ork player, but meh.

In the world of mathhammer, orks do not cut it in the elite group of army lists, especially in the 'ard boyz. There are many things that 'make' them 'competitive' (soft scores), none of which has anything to do with numbers.

They are not a terrible army and in the hands of a good player can perform well.

But all things being equal, the odds do not favor them...

The Green Git wrote:I just noticed something...

Frank Fugger -> England
Elesar -> England
Pringles978 -> England

Coincidence? Let the reader decide.

Elessar wrote:
Also, I live in Northern Ireland, not England.


quote]

Elessar: im fairly sure its all the same to them, the lack of knowledge about anything outside of their own short history and reciting the state capitals is staggering
amongst the majority of the populance. i was in texas last year and nobody i met could tell me where iraq, afganistan or iran was other than a vague reference to "the middle east", lol

kadun wrote:
Could you post your 1750 4 Battlewagon list?

You can run 4 Battlewagons happily enough at 1500 points. The list, roughly, consists of
HQ
Big Mek w/KFF
Ork Warboss

TROOPS
18 boyz + nob w/pk and bp
19 boyz + nob w/pk and bp
19 boyz + nob w/pk and bp
9 nobz + painboy (BW as dedicated transport)

HEAVY
Battlewagon
Battlewagon
Battlewagon

With 1750 you could add snikrot or deff koptas etc.

Frank Fugger wrote:
The problem being, of course, when you get to an opponent who CAN handle [x], [y] and [z], and can also handle [a], [b] and [c] as well. Raider-spam and the ease with which it gets swept aside by the likes of Mechdar, Vulkan Bikers and even Meltabomb-Blood Claws is a cautionary lesson as to why taking things purely because you don't think your opponent will have the tools to deal with them is a bad idea. The Ork Codex's problem is that the entire army list seems to have been built around this very tenet, and thus Ork players can do nothing BUT take stuff and count on their opponents not to be able to deal with it.

That doesn't convince me. There'll always be someone who can deal with Oblits, or Wave Serpents, or boyz. I really don't see how the Ork codex follows that tenet any more or less than others. The choices offered are quite solid for what they can do. Your line of reasoning also seems to invalidate the effects of being resilient because it relies on the opposition to be unprepared, and yet it is a great boon. Perhaps Orks won't last as long against templates (although it takes considerable effort to amass enough to matter in the right location), but then again, Termis won't last that long against plasma.

That's not how optimising works.

That's exactly how it works, Frank. Your example simply proves my point. Those Vulkan Bikers are already the answer to the "What if I chance upon...?" question. They just make the process of selecting the right thing exceedingly easy.

Optimising is about taking stuff that can handle itself against anything and is capable of doing something worthwhile each turn (even if it's only sitting on a point in a Land Raider so's it counts as scoring), not taking whatever you'd normally take and stuffing a few "utility" upgrades in there too.

Then I take it that you would never include Fire Dragons. They cannot handle themselves against anything, not even with an Exarch. 99 % of the units everywhere cannot handle anything - why again did you mention tacticals being worse than specialists? Having said that, neither generalists nor specialists can handle everything.

The fact that they all revolve around me not having the tools to deal with their low-grade-ass lots-of-dice expendability crap blunts that edge; because if I do, they're stuck.

Nonsense. Even if you have those tools, they still need to work together. A single flamer isn't going to stop them, so you need to coordinate stuff. Yes, of course it is possible. Of course it may be second nature to some Veterans. And yet, you assume that the Orks do not have the tools to deal with that. Your MM speeder is quite easily big shoota'ed out of the sky though.

Frank Fugger wrote:

artyboy wrote:Battlewagons aren't that easy to kill.

Krak Grenades can penetrate them and regular SM/ Ork CC attacks will Glance them. They're not HARD to kill either.

And? IG doesn't. The fact that one army might perhaps do something again tells us nothing. The exact same thing applies to Mechdar. It's not about killing them so much as it is about killing them at the right time. Krak grenades aren't the answer to Orks I'm afraid, not the reason why the latter would be weak.

Elessar wrote:
The distinction is this:

If using MechDar, there are certain lists (AirCav, for example) that you REALLY don't want to face - it stretches the list to almost breaking point to take it on at it's own level and to get victory is a serious test of the player and the army.

With Necrons, there are lists you CAN'T reliably beat - this is why they aren't competitive. Orks have the same issue.

That's an articifial distinction. There are lists that Mechdar will have problems with and there are lists that [insert Ork flavour] will have problems with. Mechdar cannot *reliably* beat everyone.

Elessar wrote:
Facts (again):

Orks can't reliably kill AV14
Orks can't reliably kill Seer Councils
Orks can't get into CC with, and therefore beat, MechDar, or, even worse, DE.
Orks can't cope with Manticores and Multiple Rocket Pods.
Lootas/Burnas require Dedicated Transports in a 5th Edition environment.

#1: not very relevant because Raider spam will succumb to melta spam and most everything is AV11 max. Orks do have very good answers to AV11.
#2: irrelevant because it isn't anything special for Orks. No-one can reliably kill them. Orks are extremely well pepared to tarpit them though.
#3: Of course they can. Move towards the objectives and MechDar can zip around as much as they like - or come to you.
#4: Of course they can. Deffkoptas can, Snikrot can...the fact that this again can be countered is a moot point because that screen around the Manticore is just as useful against Vulkan bikers or WS-Fire Dragons.
#5: If 5th is the Mechanized Edition, everything requires a transport, and most are dedicated. If Orks use transports, they're obviously a 5th edition army.

The Ork Codex suffers to much from FoC Saturation - ie, too many choices worth taking compete for the same options, the best example being Elites - taking Nob Bikers and Lootas means taking Nobs as Troops. Is this bad? Only if you want Kommandos, Burnas, Tankbustas...or a KFF.
The KFF is too good, because it forces it's inclusion in a sensible Mech Ork list. Thinks that are taken because they're too good to ignore, rather than just being great on their own strength are bad, as they restrict player choice, and strategy.

Again all of these points can be applied to other factions. The IG codex is chock full of choices worth taking. The Eldar codex is full of good choices, as are SM and Daemons. Both have units that seem too good to pass up. Too good to ignore and being great on their own strength is just fancy play with words.

Elessar wrote:I disagree that Lootas kill MechDar.

But that isn't what you said before, is it? It's not about killing. It's about neutralizing stuff. You can take away the mobility or parts thereof off a Mechdar list, and that is quite useful. DeffKoptas cannot be outmaneouvred. Forget that. It's simply wrong and needs no further debate.

This thread is the king of theoryhammer. You guys need to take into account your opponents skill level and army comp. It is a sad fact that orks do struggle against AV14, and it is also true that Loota spam will kill mechdar. At least that has been my experience with it. I would be so incredibly warm and fuzzy inside if I saw an eldar list deployed like in the picture. I'm not going to bust into theoryhammer mode and say "you would be screwed because the prisms would do yada yada" etc. At the end of the day, it comes down to dice rolls and your opponents experience level really. One side of this arguement is not going to change the other sides view point and vice versa. All this thread has evolved into is a way to bump your post count up. Hence this post

Toxxic wrote:This thread is the king of theoryhammer. You guys need to take into account your opponents skill level and army comp.

Actually the premise of the thread is that skill level is equal, and at a very high level, making the sheer mechanics of the lists the fundamental driver in determining their strength/weaknesses.