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Alerian wrote:2 threads later, as well as several ork 'Ard Boys wins

I would wait for the Semifinals before concluding anything about the competitiveness or lack of of any given codex. There are some really *horrible* lists out there that did well in 'Ard Boyz prelims simply because they fought an even more horrible list. I won my local store tourney with a very hard list (Mech Chaos), but it was largely unnecessary against some of my matchups.

R1 is largely roflstomping newbz to get your Golden Ticket. If a certain codex or list type continues to dominate in R2 I think conclusions can be drawn that are more definitive for the current competitive scene.

sourclams wrote:

Alerian wrote:2 threads later, as well as several ork 'Ard Boys wins

I would wait for the Semifinals before concluding anything about the competitiveness or lack of of any given codex. There are some really *horrible* lists out there that did well in 'Ard Boyz prelims simply because they fought an even more horrible list. I won my local store tourney with a very hard list (Mech Chaos), but it was largely unnecessary against some of my matchups.

R1 is largely roflstomping newbz to get your Golden Ticket. If a certain codex or list type continues to dominate in R2 I think conclusions can be drawn that are more definitive for the current competitive scene.

this ^

The problem with that is this;


The people bashing Orks, won't care. If Orks dominate round 2(a big IF), they will just continue to say "oh well, the Orks must have all played noobs in round 2". If Orks somehow win this thing, same thing. They will never change their opinion, no matter how wrong it is proven to be.


It's kind of pointless to talk to them, try to prove anything. If Orks win every tournament in the world for the next year, Frank already has his fallback argument that 40k isnt competitive enough to show that Orks arent a good army. So he just runs back to that over and over again.



Clay

What I think is extra stupid about math hammering orks is they only take into consideration one result. That the vehicle is destroyed.

They do not think about what if I get a glance off and stop the vehicle in its tracks then follow up with the orks instead of hitting on 6s now are always hitting. Simple things like that make me sick when people look at cold math for just ONE situation.

Primarch wrote:It's kind of pointless to talk to them, try to prove anything. If Orks win every tournament in the world for the next year, Frank already has his fallback argument that 40k isnt competitive enough to show that Orks arent a good army. So he just runs back to that over and over again.

You say it's a fallback argument and seem to suggest there's no basis to it, yet you're not providing any counter to it. Show me why it's wrong. Show me that these people are winning tournaments by playing the best players using the best possible lists and I'll believe that Orks are a competetive Codex in their own right rather than being made so by a competetive scene that, largely, isn't competetive.

So far it's gone from throwing tailored lists and hypotheses at me to attacking my position and arguments without providing any of your own, over and above the whole "Orks win heats so they MUST be good!". If it makes anyone feel any less slighted I believe that Necrons, Tyranids and Daemonhunters are similarly crippled; the difference is that those other three Codexes require substantially more involvement to be put to best use, whereas the Ork Codex can be used to great effect by pretty much anybody. It's getting to the stage where I'm seriously considering eBaying an Ork army just so's I can not touch it until the next UK GT comes up, then crack it out of the box, enter, and see how well I do.

Frank Fugger wrote: Show me why it's wrong. Show me that these people are winning tournaments by playing the best players using the best possible lists and I'll believe that Orks are a competetive Codex in their own right rather than being made so by a competetive scene that, largely, isn't competetive.

Translation-----I'll make an impossible standard that no one can live up to, so therefore I'm right.


GG

generalgrog wrote:Translation-----I'll make an impossible standard that no one can live up to, so therefore I'm right.


GG

It's entirely possible to "live up to" it; are batreps and army lists THAT difficult to come by? Obviously they are, otherwise I wouldn't need to bang on like this



UK Throne of Skulls heat one is on October 17th; might have to cancel my plans for the new Space Wolves army to get my awesome Orks list painted in time :(

Frank Fugger wrote:... Frank can be an idiot...

At last... a FF quote I can agree with.

generalgrog wrote:

Frank Fugger wrote: Show me why it's wrong. Show me that these people are winning tournaments by playing the best players using the best possible lists and I'll believe that Orks are a competetive Codex in their own right rather than being made so by a competetive scene that, largely, isn't competetive.

Translation-----I'll make an impossible standard that no one can live up to, so therefore I'm right.


GG

And that's worse than simply shouting "You're wrong!" without any evidence to the contrary...how?

The Green Git wrote:

Frank Fugger wrote:... Frank can be an idiot...

At last... a FF quote I can agree with.

That's taken completely out of context

Ok, seriously?

Frank has not proven anything either. Yet, we are expected to disprove his opinion . He has presented no facts that I can see, all opinion based argument. Why should we answer this;


Orks suck.


With anything other than this;


No, they don't.


We provided what little evidence there really is, and that is results based. Frank just chooses to make a statement about how 40k isn't competitive, so thats supposedly why the Orks are doing well. Would you prefer me to argue back "40k is very competitive, and Orks are winning, so therefore Orks are competitive", to counter his point?

Just so he can claim that we are the ones with the burden of proof, and that his opinion should be considered fact until we can convice him personally somehow? I find that laughable.



Clay

@ Frank: I may still play my Orks for the 2nd round. It's just I've been playing my Orks this entire year and have left my Eldar to collect dust. I played in the Ard Boyz last weekend w/ Orks. This coming Saturday, I'm playing my Orks in an 1850 point RTT. The following weekend, I'm taking that same 1850 point army to the Necro Indy GT.

It's a lot of games with the same army. On the plus side, it looks pretty cool. I'm almost ready to post up pics here showcasing the army (assuming it doesn't get totally pasted at the Necro

The only downside to round 2 of the Ard Boyz, is that it can bring out some ugliness in otherwise pleasant individuals. Put some money on the table (so to speak), and attitudes tend to change.

And I'm also waiting for the new Wolves.

Primarch wrote:Ok, seriously?

Frank has not proven anything either.

I haven't got access to batreps or lists so this will have to do. UK Throne of Skulls results; interpret them how you will. Remember we're not just looking at the winners; we're looking at the tables as a whole to see what kind of armies are placing well:

UK Throne Of Skulls 08-09 Heat 1:
http://warhammerworld.typepad.com/warhammer_world_news/files/wh_tsgt40k_final_results_ht1.pdf

Because the Dark Angels Codex is top ten quality in ANYONE'S book! Also note how many Orks players there are compared to players of other armies; maybe I should add "weight of numbers" to the "shoddy opponents" hypothesis?


UK ToS 08-09 Heat 2:
http://warhammerworld.typepad.com/warhammer_world_news/files/40k_tsgt_ht_2_karen6.pdf

More proof that Dark Angels are a competetive army. And Tyranids too, apparently.


UK ToS 08-09 Heat 3:
http://warhammerworld.typepad.com/files/wh40k-tsgt-heat-3-actual-r6.pdf

No Dark Angels in the top ten here. Maybe they stopped being competetive all of a sudden?


UK ToS 08-09 Final:
http://warhammerworld.typepad.com/files/wh40ktosgt-final-mkii-r6.pdf

There you go.

This sort of pattern is repeated throughout the 40K tournament scene. Look at any of the White Dwarf reports from official torunaments and you'll see what I mean. The Guard fanfare issue was particularly shoddy; the garbage these journalists took to the Doubles Event would shame a child. "Lol Lysander and Termies in a 500pt army list WHAT CAN POSSIBLY GO WRONG?!" If you think that's an isolated incident, play more competetive 40K.

Watching Stelek's blog as the 'Ard Boyz results keep a-comin', too. Daemonhunters doin' fine; which is cool, I always like to root for the DH players because I'm a Grey Knight fanboy at heart. Sure the Codex sucks and they require vast amounts of sweat and tears to be remotely competetive, and indeed wouldn't be competetive at all if the tourney scene was, but hey.

One last thing; bear in mind that nobody is saying "Orks suck". They don't. For whatever reason, they're a competetive army. What I'm saying is if competetive 40K was more competetive they wouldn't be. If you're going to RAEG at me then at least do it for the right reasons.

notabot187 wrote:Personally I don't see an issue with deffrollas being over the top if they hit vehicles. If somebody with an important tank is stupid enough to be withing 13 inches of a battle wagon that isn't immobile, then they deserve what is coming.

This is a great example of the difference between a hardcore 40k player and someone with a little less tactical acumen.

My apologies notabot for singling you out, but the deffrolla makes a HUGE difference for orks in certain matchups. In others not so much. My IG army has been dismantling foot orks, bike orks and mechanized orks lately.

Remember that I'm only speaking about my particular IG list, and the anti-ork tactics I've been using against very skilled players.

My anti-mech ork tactic revolves around my 6 devildogs. I move them 18" every game. As close as I can possibly get, and sideways, to the battlewagons. Almost every other army in the game will lose a movement phase to the wall, but will be able to melta my tanks down through their smoke, and trundle off on their next turn. Ork players without access to a deffrolla are completely stuck. The boarding plank can't legally be used against targets that move more than 12". The wrecking ball is not going to be enough to explode my tanks, and getting out to claw my tanks funnels you into a nice packed up ball, and I pack at least 1 manticore and at least 4 medusas to really make you pay for debarking like that. So you lose a turn of movement, and then unless you had lootas, you are set up for me to be able to recycle my movement next turn, swapping the postitions of my devildogs again, denying your boarding planks, and another turn of movement. While this is happening, bastion breachers are dropping into the tanks, and scoring a consistent number of AP1 pens for you to cover save against. Pens that have +2 to damage rolls.

It is my belief that designer intent was for deffrollas to work on vehicles, 5th edition was deep in development when orks were being written, hell there was mention of 'defensive grenades' in the chaos space marine codex. Regardless of intent. Almost every other army has a plethora of shooting based anti-tank that can be attached to, or ride in transports. Shooting is not bound by the dreaded 6's to hit conundrum of anti-vehicle CC. I believe that deffrollas should work on my cheap tactic, and you should (on a good roll) be able to blast through my roadblock in a very orky fashion. That would challenge my IG list a lot more and make for a lot more fun games.

Congratulations to all of the ork winners so far. I don't mean this condescendingly. I don't think orks are some disadvantaged underpowered list, the only thing different from last season (where orks completely dominated an entire season of high level tournament play) is the introduction of the IG codex. My position has always been that IG has a great matchup against orks, considering equal generalship and list construction. Nothing more though. Every other army I own in my collection seriously fears orks. I hope that in the finals, there are swathes of ork players, all hungry to get an offical and IN PRINT ruling on deffrollas. I for one think that they should work on vehicles, and I think a lot of the former ork players that are tired of getting walled off and templated in their local meta will come back into the fold hardcore.

So ork players keep winning next month please! I need to see that deffrolla ruling in print!

Interesting post and tactics Shep.

There's something there to give me pause; I would definitely be counting on my grabbin' klaws (if Deff Rollas aren't allowed) to be holding you still so I could get some good swings off. I wonder how that would work? A squadron of vehicles, and a grabbin' klaw causing a one-turn immobilize result to one of them. Would it immobilize the squadron?

Dashofpepper wrote:Interesting post and tactics Shep.

There's something there to give me pause; I would definitely be counting on my grabbin' klaws (if Deff Rollas aren't allowed) to be holding you still so I could get some good swings off. I wonder how that would work? A squadron of vehicles, and a grabbin' klaw causing a one-turn immobilize result to one of them. Would it immobilize the squadron?

I'll check on that. I feel like I'm remembering some squadron rules from 4th edition as well as 5th. So I'd want to look at a book before I commented.

Your klaws fortunately keep you from being permanently walled off, which might be a mandatory upgrade. Your planks can auto-hit rear armor 10 on the following turn which should easily blast you clear of the roadblock.

It just sucks that I'll be able to take two movement phases away from you with a rather 'uninspired' tactic. I think orks deserve a one turn solution to this problem.

They have a one-turn solution to the problem. They're called "Tankbustas".

And Frank Fugger, to put the burden of proof back on you....try this logic statement on for size:

I am the best 40k player on the planet Earth, and I play Orks. I do not need to beat every single 40k player on the planet earth in every possible scenario to prove it. Instead, I can remain undefeated as an Ork player through every possible scenario. Until an individual topples me, I am the best 40k player on the planet Earth.

I don't need to prove that I'm right, you need to prove me wrong.

All the quarter-final rounds where Orks won (and other races) - the players who won get to make the same claim. At the final round of 'Ard Boyz, there will remain only one person who can still claim to be the best 40k player, and they do not need to individually beat every person who meets your criteria to maintain that claim. Titles are granted, then challenged; not infinitely fought for and not granted.

Unless you can find someone with the tactical combination and army list that can take me down, then Orks are the best army in 40k. And if we throw your logic into the mix, even if I get beaten...Orks are STILL the best army in 40k, I just lost with them because I'm a noob.

Dashofpepper, that logic is only sound if you agree that only noobs ever lose (since you would justify a loss by claiming noobhood), which is patently ridiculous.

I see the point you are trying to make, but that analogy doesn't cut it.

I like analogies, but I never claimed that they were any good!

Nurglitch wrote:They have a one-turn solution to the problem. They're called "Tankbustas".

i like this concept on paper.

In the past I've had very little success with them. But 12 rokkit shots out of a battlewagon that moved 7", and not losing its boarding plank klaw (or tankhammer) like a wagon full of burnas or lootas would, should be great in this world of tank spamming. Uncontrollable movement and targeting decisions are right up there with 'random abilities' in the pantheon of crappy game design ideas. And that always turned me off of the unit.

I'll have to pore over "Glory Hogs" again and look at how that'll effect their behavior in a transport. Moving around and shooting rokkits would be great. But debarking and charging a vehicle at an inopportune time would put them right back in the case.

To the codex!

Glory Hogs isn't a problem, particularly in a Mech-heavy environment. They have to shoot or assault enemy vehicles in preference to non-vehicle models, but that's it. It just means that given a choice between shooting a vehicle and a non-vehicle unit that they have to shoot the vehicle, and given a choice between assaulting a vehicle and assaulting a non-vehicle unit, they have to assault the vehicle unit. They don't have to move towards enemy vehicles, so no worry about them spontaneously debarking.

tankbustas must always attempt to shoot and/or assault an enemy vehicle if there is one in LOS regardless of range.

From the glory hogs rule in the codex. This leads me to believe that they would spontaneously disembark to assault a vehicle

I disagree Toxxic. Mad Dok Grotsnik has a special rule specifically detailing how he should move during his movement phase. "As fast as possible towards the nearest enemy unit."

Tankbustas and Glory Hogs tell you to shoot at and/or assault an enemy vehicle if there is one in range; it doesn't tell you how to move. It is neither your job nor I to make inferences about a rule that aren't written into it. The writers of the Ork codex obviously know how to tell a unit how to move during the movement phase; they did it with One Scalpel Short for Mad Dok. If they wanted the same language to apply to Tankbustas, they would have written it in.

My tankbustas always attempt to shoot an enemy vehicle if there is one in line of sight. Notice the addition of /or next to the and, giving us and/or. That means that tankbustas have an option. Tankbustas must attempt to shoot an enemy vehicle, OR tankbustas must attempt to assault an enemy vehicle, OR tankbustas must attempt to both shoot AND assault an enemy vehicle.

Its looking pretty good for tankbustas in battlewagons.

"Glory hogs" hurts foot based tankbustas (which is a shame) because they can't run if there is a single enemy vehicle in LOS.

In a battlewagon, the running isn't an issue, and the charging isn't an issue either. You must charge if you can, as per Glory Hogs. But there is no enforcement of mandatory debarkation. A quick search of YMDC revealed a pretty overwhelming consensus on that point.

Therefore, as long as tankbustas are in a battlewagon, they are pretty much a normal unit with the only catch that if you want to shoot at some space marines, and there is a land raider on the table, then sorry buddy gotta shoot at the land raider, and if you shot at the land raider, then you aren't charging anything but the land raider (or someone who fell out of it)

I'm thinking a couple units of 15 tankbustas with 2x tank hammers, a nob with a power klaw and bosspole is in order. Or do you skip the klaw, since you have the tank hammers for boarding plank duty?

And Dash, this is what I fund on the vehicle squadron question.

"When a squadron moves, all of its vehicles move the same speed (i.e. they all move at combat speed, at cruising speed, etc.)"

Since they used the speed catagories from the vehicles section of the rulebook for their example, I'm gonna venture to say that if one of my vehicles in a squadron MUST be 'stationary' then the rest are compelled to "move at the same speed".

Thats good enough for me I think.

Oh and some quick math showed that 13 BS2 rokkits and 2 bomb squigs penetrates armor 12 1.98 times. Lootas shooting twice penetrate armor 12 1.6 times.

delicious food for thought.

Ok, I'm going to eat some crow and start taking another look at Tankbustas. I've been adamant since the codex came out they were nigh useless. However, since my own Ork army has gone mechanized, there seems to be a glimmer of hope for this unit.

However, before I bust out the paints and order up 10 more Tankbustas, I'm awaiting some type of response from GW regarding Deff Rollas. After all, it's not like the kit is coming out in less than a month and the public outcry about Deff Rollas being broken.

If Orks are Tier 3, then what the hell is Tier 1?

This is an exercise to get GW to rule that deff rollaz work when tank shocking landraiders? Just kidding.

Nidz also have problems with AV14. That has always been a trait of low tech horde armies.

Sarigar wrote:Ok, I'm going to eat some crow and start taking another look at Tankbustas. I've been adamant since the codex came out they were nigh useless. However, since my own Ork army has gone mechanized, there seems to be a glimmer of hope for this unit.

However, before I bust out the paints and order up 10 more Tankbustas, I'm awaiting some type of response from GW regarding Deff Rollas. After all, it's not like the kit is coming out in less than a month and the public outcry about Deff Rollas being broken.

Before you order up 10 more tankbustas, you should look in your bitz box. I bought a box of fantasy orks quite some time ago to give me extra bodies; they made my kommandos. Fantasy box maces cut in half give you rokkits. Boyz boxes (and most other things) come with a tankbusta bomb or two. I cut apart the kill-kan rokkits and glued the rokkits onto sluggas to make rokkit pistols....my rokkit launcha boyz that don't belong in any mobs went into the tank-busta group....all sorts of stuff. I bought one box of tank-bustas (and got bomb squigs) but the rest of my tank-bustas were kustom-built.

As for utility....I don't take a nob with my tank bustas; if I'm going to boarding plank something, a Nob with a powerklaw is STR9, and a Tankhammer is STR10. They have plenty of killy without needing a nob with a powerklaw, and I keep them away from mixing it up in close combat with nasty things. In 'Ard Boyz, I didn't play a single space marine player between all my games. They *did* do a few nifty things for me though:

1. Got a glancing 6 against an open-topped battlewagon turn1, destroying it.
2. Killed a leman russ and multi-assaulted two heavy IG tanks, killing them both.
3. Killed a couple of elite Carnifexes in one round of shooting at each. (STR8 AP3); tyranids have no vehicles.
4. Killed a wraithguard; the eldar player had no vehicles on the table, so I went after his monstrous creatures.


My current configuration of vehicles has a battlewagon with a deff rolla and a boarding plank, with 15 tankbustas inside (can't remember offhand if I took the bomb squigs out). I can Deff-rolla into a vehicle, then either shoot it or another vehicle, then potentially boarding plank and assault the vehicle I just hit with a deffrolla. There's a lot of potential in there.

Just for clarification, your Tankbustawagon has a total point cost of something like ~280-300 pts, right?