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To be honest, ive allways used GW superglue.
Its price isnt that bad compared to well known brands.
Locktight is £3 for a tiny tube, £4 for games workshops bottle thats about 10x the size and works just as well seems pretty fair to me.
I could however pick up 20 3g tubes from a £1 shop, but you get what you pay for as most of these are pertty much empty, and barely stick fingers together

GW have made all these products to advertise thier own company, no one is saying you must buy them, but alot find that it makes life alot easier.
Go into 1 shop and get whatever you need, weather its glue, scenery, models, basing items, tools, its all there.

GW is 118ml, you can't get good 'ol Elmers in Australia? I'm telling you it's got to be Unicorns. you used to be able to get them in your armies but as far as I know, not anymore. They must have shipped 'em all off to the glue factory......

n0t_u wrote:

mattyboy22 wrote:What did you expect? They re-package $0.48 white glue into a tube that says "Games Workshop PVA glue" and sell it for $8.25.

Let me says that again. They re-package $0.48 white glue into a tube that says "Games Workshop PVA glue" and sell it for $8.25............$0.48..........$8.25.........

The "added value" in white glue is............ . . . . . . . ?

Here in Australia I can't find the same type of glue that comes in at least less then 200ml (GW one is 14-20ml iirc) and thats around $2. Whereas the GW is $14 somehow
I assume it has magical properties.

PVA will only hold wood to wood securely, GW PVA will also hold a Blueshirts face straight when someone actually buys some!

I don't really understand what the point is.

GW are increasingly producers of plastic kits, as distinct from traditional metal models. Judging from the number of newer players who post very basic questions about glue, paint and plasticard (to name a few), they've had little or no prior exposure to building plastic kits. So GW clearly decided that, rather than sending them off to a hobby shop for all the 'extras' it was better to sell them them at a GW store. That way inexperienced modellers can also learn the techniques, rather than abandoning the whole thing after inadvertantly melting their Marines into goo. It's also good business; I worked in a hobby shop as a student, and the add-ons (paints, glue etc) were very profitable, and a big part of selling the kits was to sell the add ons.

There have been real issues with the quality of GW's add-ons from time to time, mostly (I think) because they've sourced too many things on the basis of low price. I think their plastic cement is horrible, as is their liquid cement (try Revell cement and Tamiya liquid cement and you'll never go back to GW's stuff). And the last range of paintbrushes were terrible too - luckily they've been replaced by good quality ones. I don't really understand the complaints about their terrain or the plastic playing boards. Their buildings and bunkers are fantastic kits, and if you don't like the playing boards there are always grass mats or whatever. Providing this stuff hardly undermines the hobby.

So I don't see any connection at all between this and they're failing to promote the hobby, or the reliance on one-off releases. And by the way, GW's growth comes from selling to kids. Every senior GW person I've spoken to has said this. They don't necessarily like it, but it's the reality (as is the fact that Marines are the core of WH40k). So more experienced modellers will continue to go to hobby shops for their supplies, and will continue to build their own models and terrain, but GW will continue to focus on younger players. Frankly, that's working fine at the moment, because the models are, on the whole, better than ever. But once they start dumbing down the models to appeal solely to the inexperienced modeller, it'll be the beginning of the end for me.

Hi all.
The point I was trying to make was the 'GW marketing line ' of all official GW endorsed products are all you need and THE ONLY thing to use in the GW HOBBY.
'Everything is perfect and only requires minimal effort.Assemble paint and your good to go.'

Does NOT fit with the GW game developers -studio staff view of 'here are a few examples , and a rough guide for fun pick up and play games.'

When I started playing GW games back in the 1980s, no-one asked for 'official rulings' of if they could modify the games for thier own enjoyment.
We just did it!
The message was 'be creative and have fun' loud and clear!

But due to the percieved 'over arcing dependance on GW of the newbs, ' this is stifling creativity required to maxise the potential of the GW games.IMO.

They want to know why 'pv are so wierd, why are X unit so over/under powered, why are the 3 basic missions boring ' etc.They expect a level of 'completness and ballance' that is beyond the game developers brief.

GW PLC imply 'premium gaming at your convenience , (at a premium price).'
While they treat game play as a 'necisary evil' they give 'lip service' to.' .. the games are just icing on the cake...' head game developer Jervis Johnson.

And 'churn and burn' of new customers is great if you can keep new customers stream 'isolated'.
But the advent of the internet has meant better information flow.

And GW games are seen to be an 'expencive fad', by many.And constantly increasing prices to make up for falling turn over, is simply reducing the number of new customers due to price barriers.
Rather than targeting ' tweenies' why not just target gamers of all ages?

Great games sell more minatures in the long run.(Due to maintained interest and positive word of mouth.).

Summary.
Marlketing hype, is stifling the creativity needed to maximise the potential of the GW games.Selling the hobby product NOT the hobby , is leading to drop off of interest in GW games. IMO.

Hope that clarifies my rambeling a bit?
TTFN
Lanrak.

Lanrak mate, that is an awful lot of opinion dressed up as fact above. I'll go over it in depth later, as right now I am in a foul mood from the Junkies upstairs banging around for the past 2 hours, and their dogs barking incessantly for 4. And I'm pooped.

In short, before anyone just jumps on me, you are right to degree, in so far as the Stores are about selling the Hobby, not the product (though of course the product is the Hobby). This not being done is nothing to do with HO. It's the individual stores getting it wrong. The successful stores are the ones that promote and sell the Hobby. More later. Probably tomorrow later.

Just a smidge more. The store I now work for has some interesting ideas for promoting the actual Hobby side of things. Talking to my Manager today, I am very keen to set up a locals Schools League. Beyond what's on the shelves, I feel our Store should become a Gaming Destination. Head Office has people paid to help us with such plans, so to say that GW themselves focus more on flogging product than Hobby just isn't accurate. You are of course flogging the product, but as I mentioned, it should be a view that the Hobby is the Product, with the models just part of it. My Manager for example, runs Scenery Workshops for the customers. He hopes to setup a Core Club during the week which I intend to semi-hijack for my evil Schools League plan.

So as you said, sell the Hobby, and the product sells itself (sorry to keep shifting between rather vague definitions of Product. I am seriously tired right now!). But a Store failing to do so does not reflect what Head Office have instructed them to do.

Hi MDG.
Hope you get some sleep soon mate.
I wasnt implying 'this is how it is..'.
But sort of reading between the lines and detecting a possible disconnect between GW studio staffs ' get crerative and have fun' message.
And some customers taking GW 'examples' and 'rough guides to' as ' this is the only way to do it'.
Possibly due to the way GW markets hobby suplies, rather than the hobby.IMO.

If I forgot to put IMO, after some sentances, fair cop guv.

But there is enough evidence that the game devs do not write rules in a'official do not modify or supliment in any way' .
The marketing of the other hobby products infers.'Official GW products only' in the stores.'

(Everything you buy in a GW store is 'GW HOBBY 'product, as far as this post is concerned .)

And when WD , ( GW web site,)was full of creativity ,(promoting all aspects of the hobby,) rather than just selling the latest releases, it re-enforced the 'be creative' message of the studio more.IMO.

As reguards to how 'hobby' or 'product' focused the stores are, GW HO should promote best practices.
(Best practices are defined from bechmarking the available retail options/methods.)
They dont just say 'sell this much or else we shut you down' surley?

I am just asking questions , based on my opinions formed from factual evidence.(What GW folk said and did... )

You may have come to different conclusions.

I look forward to reading you opinions.

TTFN
Lanrak.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: My Manager for example, runs Scenery Workshops for the customers. He hopes to setup a Core Club during the week which I intend to semi-hijack for my evil Schools League plan.

So as you said, sell the Hobby, and the product sells itself (sorry to keep shifting between rather vague definitions of Product. I am seriously tired right now!). But a Store failing to do so does not reflect what Head Office have instructed them to do.

Sure, but how many of those scenery workshops will include how to build hills from pink/blue foam? How to make trees out of bent wire? They'll likely be 'how to paint the GW hills', 'how to paint the GW trees', or if you're adding trees, here are the 'GW trees in fall colors'. Glue, flock, paint.

Gone are the days of 'the Hobby' which used to be based on conversions, creating terrain out of household objects, etc. GW's focus, from its WD ads, and its decision to pursue 'everything you need in the store' is to make ready-made terrain. Why build it when you can buy it. And I can't imagine that GW Stores themselves will be encouraging people to buy their white glue at the dollar store, or to make hills out of styrofoam.

Need a game table? Here is our battleboard. Glue, flock, paint. Done.

I would also hazard a guess that what the Head Office instruct a store to do might also differ from Country to Country. The GW UK approach might be different from the GW North America.

And, while it might be 'supposition' on my part, its also been my experience in the 'GW Hobby' since 2nd edition. And it has DEFINATELY changed over the years.

Who gives a crap what GW does/says?

The models are pretty awesome and always getting better.

The codexes are as well.

I couldn't care less about anything else.

mattyboy22 wrote:What did you expect? They re-package $0.48 white glue into a tube that says "Games Workshop PVA glue" and sell it for $8.25.

Let me says that again. They re-package $0.48 white glue into a tube that says "Games Workshop PVA glue" and sell it for $8.25............$0.48..........$8.25.........

The "added value" in white glue is............ . . . . . . . ?

They also found a way to sell paintbrushes with most of the bristles cut off, sheer genius! Or the laser pointer which sells for 10 times the amount of a non-GW one. Look, if people are happy buying this stuff why should we care?

Exactly. It's not like GW cornered the hobby supply market and forces you to buy their stuff!

JohnHwangDD wrote:Exactly. It's not like GW cornered the hobby supply market and forces you to buy their stuff!

But but , have you ever brought in non GW hobby tools into GW shop? ( like super glue / other brand pliers )

They look at you like as if they are in tears and heart rended " i believed in you..... I BELIEVED IN YOUUUUUUUUU~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "
and such.

LunaHound wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Exactly. It's not like GW cornered the hobby supply market and forces you to buy their stuff!

But but , have you ever brought in non GW hobby tools into GW shop? ( like super glue / other brand pliers )

They look at you like as if they are in tears and heart rended " i believed in you..... I BELIEVED IN YOUUUUUUUUU~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "
and such.

I get that from the staff when I don't buy every new BL title, it's a real case of "wait, but there's more" except everything is still unashamedly 100% retail priced.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Exactly. It's not like GW cornered the hobby supply market and forces you to buy their stuff!

[GW evil bean counter]Soon, soon enough we´ll have the power to test for the paint brand you used and confiscate the model if it´s not GW´s paint [/GW evil bean counter]

M.

Gimmee the thorzine! The THORZINE!!!!

Advertising..Advertising...Advertising..Profit..Profit..Profit
GW's new credo!

Am I part of a lucky minority to have nice people working in my local GW?

Hi all.
The point is not that GW sell hobby suplies at stupidly high prices to try to gouge customers that dont know any better.(But it is still a negative aspect, that looses customers.No one likes feeling 'ripped off'.AFAIK)

But when I started with GW games it was 'all creativity and fun narrative'.
Which was a nice change from the 'restictions' of some historical games -gamers.
(Historical games had some analy retentive idiots 'officianadoes' that took things far to seriously.
EG, Refuse to play because riflemen are painted the wrong shade of 'Brunswick' green,or tanks are the wrong 'mark' for that particular year, historicaly that unit had different weapons ,(and my all time favorite) , arguing the intent of the rules , with the umpire who it turned out, actualy wrote the rules !)

Eg RT to 2nd ed , loads of (ork) vehicles were converted from WWII tanks, pictures in WD ,and WD showed how to modify scratch build stuff.

Message 'be creative, use what ever you want to get to the games you want to play.'
Analogy ...GW provide a 'stage and a few props,' you write and direct 'the play'.

Now WD and the GW web site just show GW hobby suplies and Citadel minatures.(Assembled and painted to a very high standard.)

Meseage appears to be ONLY use OFFICIAL GW brand hobby suplies (inc Citadel minatures.).
Analogy ...Here is the ONLY stage you can use, here are the selection of props you must pick from, which makes some people think we have to wait for scripts from GW?
The dev teams produce basic plots and characters, but the some customers belive they should get finished scripts with all the stage directions etc.

Because GW just push Official 'GW HOBBY' product,(a restrictive practice.).Ergo this leads some customers to think everything GW produce is 'this is how it must be done.'

Basicaly because GW PLC now focus on selling 'GW hobby' product, they are failing to promote the actual hobby.IMO.
And fail to make the customers aware of how to customise the hobby to suit them.IMO.

Which I belive is contributing to the ever 'shortening average span of interest' in GW games.(Aparently it down to less than 20 months now.)
'Buy it, play it, bored of it, leave.Tell everyone how expencive and boring it turned out to be.'

One of many 'short term profit maximisation' ideas that could be having a negative long term effect perhaps?

TTFN
Lanrak.

Kilkrazy wrote:You can still build your own terrain and use your own models. And there are plenty of other companies making terrain.

Don't get sucked into the GW == Hobby mindset.

I have to agree wholeheartedly with this. As much as I like my FLGS, I refuse to buy paints, for example, there. For half the price of a 2/3 ounce bottle of GW paint, I can get a 2 oz bottle at a local art supply store. In other words, the paints I use are 1/6 the cost of GW paints and are of equal to superior quality.

In the area I live in, there used to be a lot of hobby shops (I actually used to collect Airfix/Tamiya kits when I was younger). Unfortunately, every single one of them has closed down- the nearest being a notable trek. GW is really handy for me, because everything is in one place, and I don't need to grab a bus to the next town just to buy some paints.

I do agree on the quality though; I still have some Tamiya paints left over from the aforementioned hobby, and to me they're much better than GW paints. Likewise with brushes, the last one I got was frayed before I even used it. Thankfully it's a larger brush so I don't need it for detail work. For me though, a quick trip into the town centre to GW is much more convenient than the alternative for slightly better materials.

I don't necessarily think it's a deliberate move on GW's part, but obviously they saw that a lot of money could be made from painting/modelling supplies and started to supply it. The price is too much for a lot of stuff (that applies for almost anything in GW- I remember when a Rhino was £10!), but the convenience outweighs it for a lot of people.

For me, if I had a local hobby store I'd buy Tamiya/Revell materials instead of GW, but I refuse to travel out of town just to pick up paints. I would agree though that you don't NEED to buy GW materials to be involved in the hobby- most modelling suppliers will have the same effect.

Cruentus wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: My Manager for example, runs Scenery Workshops for the customers. He hopes to setup a Core Club during the week which I intend to semi-hijack for my evil Schools League plan.

So as you said, sell the Hobby, and the product sells itself (sorry to keep shifting between rather vague definitions of Product. I am seriously tired right now!). But a Store failing to do so does not reflect what Head Office have instructed them to do.

Sure, but how many of those scenery workshops will include how to build hills from pink/blue foam? How to make trees out of bent wire? They'll likely be 'how to paint the GW hills', 'how to paint the GW trees', or if you're adding trees, here are the 'GW trees in fall colors'. Glue, flock, paint.

Gone are the days of 'the Hobby' which used to be based on conversions, creating terrain out of household objects, etc. GW's focus, from its WD ads, and its decision to pursue 'everything you need in the store' is to make ready-made terrain. Why build it when you can buy it. And I can't imagine that GW Stores themselves will be encouraging people to buy their white glue at the dollar store, or to make hills out of styrofoam.

Need a game table? Here is our battleboard. Glue, flock, paint. Done.

I would also hazard a guess that what the Head Office instruct a store to do might also differ from Country to Country. The GW UK approach might be different from the GW North America.

And, while it might be 'supposition' on my part, its also been my experience in the 'GW Hobby' since 2nd edition. And it has DEFINATELY changed over the years.

Utter utter UTTER bollocks I'm afraid.

Bloke has bought several sheets of Pink Roof Insulation Foam. He puts this through the till to get his money back.

Head Office send out things about official promotions. For example, we have a sheet telling us to big up Space Wolves, and suggestions on how to do it. Beyond that, it is down to the Store Manager to build and develop the Hobby Community in their area.

Your opinion is indeed supposition, and if it bears out from your experience (rather than just hypebollocks*) from the Intarwebs, then fair enough. But please point such things out clearly, less other people confuse the opinions of others as being statements of facts.

Just had quick read of Lanrak's reply. And I have to say from reading this thread (well, kind of. I've read some of it) it strikes me that people are very much confusing crap Hobby Centres with Head Office being crap. Head Office of course like to sell things, and the easiest way is recruitment. But there is no point doing constant recruitment if nobody sticks about. Hence the terrain they do. It's top notch, quite reasonably priced, and accessible. But beyond that, the price is reasonably priced enough that you can sell one for someone to build into a larger piece, using aforementioned Pink Foam. Whats the difference? Most Gamers will lapse at one point or another. This is normal, and quite a hurdle in the days of the Interwebs providing easy access to the second hand market. Now the second hand market. I personally would be more willing to part with an entirely shop bought item, than one I had either converted/modified or scratch built. There's an extra level of effort involved which translates to an extra level of pride. Such things are more likely to be put on a shelf somewhere. Keeping such things around makes it easier to get people back in, as rather than think 'blimey, time to buy a whole new army' they'll think 'wonder where my army is. I'll buy the new book(s) today, then have a hunt round'

Now I know being a Blue Shirt everyone will be taking my words with a pinch of salt, and rightfully so. But I do feel GW get a lot of bad press on account of the staff running a store not quite getting the long term plan, and instead settling for quick fix tactics.

Hi MDG.
I would like to congratulate you on getting the job mate!(And hopefully getting some sleep.)
The reason you may miss the point I was trying to make is you have been playing GW games for a long time , and you are totaly aware of what WH and 40k are about , and what sort of games GW devs are trying to promote.
(Heavily narritive driven creative hobby games .)
Yes some GW stores may be more 'hobby orientated' than others.
But putting retail and recreational aspects of a hobby together in one place can cause confusion.(Especialy if space is limited.)

Without a clear directive from HO on what priorities are, and best practices, are you suprised at the range of different attitudes in the GW shop staff?

If HO just sets targets and leaves it up to the individual stores how to achive them,they are not exacly 'leading the way' in retail development, are they?

It was just when GW showed the gaps in thier range of products ,(and rules) and how to 'be creative' to fill them, it re-enforced the fact that GW give you a starting point for YOUR hobby.

Now GW have 'covered every angle' and costantly push 'official ' GW products for a 'GW HOBBY'.

People new to GW may feel they have to follow GW instructions slavishly , and 'ask permission' to deviate from 'Official' GW product - playing instructions.
(Look on the forums to see how many people ask 'is this legal' or 'is this an official ruling.' etc)

People 'in tune' with the dev teams or those that 'get 'what 40k and WH are about dont make this sort of assumption obviously.

Influenced by the hype of the 'GW Hobby ' some may expect the rules and army composition lists to be expertly written and well defined instructions on how to play 'GW Hobby games'.
Oh dear, this is the exact opposite of the 'rough guide to pick up and play fun games' the GW devs seem to write.IMO.

Could this be having a negative effect on GW buisness?
As 'GW HOBBY hyperbole' is creating expectations in the games that isnt met.(If the players dont get 'get creative' to make the most of the games that is.)

I am sure you and other experianced enthusiastic hobbiests can inspire others to be creative hobbiests.
But your job in GW retail depends on selling product, and when push comes to shove 'hard selling' to meet targets, may get in the way of promoting hobby activities perhaps?.

TTFN
Lanrak.

Jimi Nemesis wrote:Am I part of a lucky minority to have nice people working in my local GW?

The staff at my local are plenty nice, just one gets a hurt look when you don't fall for his spin about buying half the store.

cadbren wrote:

Jimi Nemesis wrote:Am I part of a lucky minority to have nice people working in my local GW?

The staff at my local are plenty nice, just one gets a hurt look when you don't fall for his spin about buying half the store.

Haha, it's exactly the same here. I walked into GW a couple of weeks ago wanting a CSM Terminator Lord and a couple of paints. Straight away, one of the staff is in my face waving Battleforces and Terminator Squads.

I love staff who seem eager about the hobby, and will help you when you need it, but sometimes the attitude of 'BUY THIS AND THIS AND THIS' gets annoying. Thankfully, he stopped waving the boxsets when I told him how many points my CSM army already was >_>

Hi Lanrak,

Thanks for the topic, its a good one.

A few things from my experience:

(1) When you have some doubts or complaints about GW you can get drunk and write them long abusive rants about what you don't like, and send it to corporate and they actually read and consider and act on your thoughts if they have any merit. They won't reply or credit you but they definitely read it and discuss any good points you offer them. I promise you they so listened to detailed suggestions from my own rants (previously inantation as Tantrum). They even took some advice that turned out to be wrong which was nice of them. They also read in here. Theycertainly do care what we think, and they definitely listen to what we say and keep it in mind as they navigate their way to each new business decision.

(2) GW has a hobby section, a business section and a manufacturing section. The business has to grant all three of these their mission. And each part of the business supports the others. You simply must allow the business guys to be business guys. And the bottom line and profitability is absolutely vital. Its crazy for attacking the mission to make and sell crap, because without cash flow the company will simply die and disappear. We are big boys now and we don't have to buy what we don't need. If they can't sell it they won't try.

(3) The company is barely profitable as it is, so understand that and tolerate their intent to rip us off, because that is a recipe for their survival.

(4) In general I think they are getting better over time.

(5) Who ever bought PVA from GW? Who ever depended on GW products to build terrain? The key is not to blame GW for their desire to make money. The key is to have our own strength in our gaming groups so that we have our local clubs making our own terrain, and making it possible for new players to kept some skill training and hobby ability from cultural sources larger than just the GW shops.

The company provides the hobby but it is the players who really make the hobby.

If we wasted less time attacking the company for doing what they have to do, and use that energy to develop our own terrain and local clubs more, we not only solve half the problems presently attributed to the company.

We also create the customer buying patterns that shape their product line.

OTG.

Hi Orc Town Grot.

I realy wanted to point out the confusion GW PLC seem to weave across it 'buisness model'.

The GW corperate accountants trying to sell product, appear to be clueless on what 'hobby' thier customers are in.

Everyone in the 'table top minature game ' hobby KNOWS there are loads of companies that provide product that can be used so you can create your OWN hobby.

Some of these folk buy GW product.
(And can spot the rip off prices in GW store.And some are very vocal at pointing this out, NOT good for buisness is it? )

However, some people who think they are in the 'GW HOBBY' dont undrestand how they can take ownership , because the 'GW hobby' belongs to GW obviously!

The GW game developers appear to still be in the mindset they are writng for 'mature table top minature gamers' who will take ownership of the rules.
And modify them to get the games they want.

But the 'GW HOBBY hype' , the 'corperate accountants push to maximise sales potential' infer the rules are written to be used without modification, and are perfect as is.

In short, the 'drive to sell product directly' has replaced the 'promotion of the hobby that used to inspire sales.'

if I may correct you ...

' The company provides the hobby but it is the players who really make the hobby. '

The company,(GW,) ONLY sells hobby supplies,(including rules and minatures, ) we the customers SHOULD be able to use these products how we see fit for our enjoyment. This is the antithisis of the percived 'GW HOBBY' which infers 'restictive practice'.
'Only allowed to use these particular items at this location in this way'

The problem is the instructions on 'how too', are not as good , as is implied by the hype.

Also placing retail and customer recruitment -retension in the same place can confuse the staff on what thier priorities are.
Are they a loss leader to ensure a never ending supply of new customers, or are they suposed to keep existing customers interested, or are they a(, very inefficient,) retail outlet?

If the retail was shifted to online-mail order only , as this is the most efficient method.(Everyone else dropped 'lots of shops', years ago.)

Then 'hobby advisors' could visit -help set up gaming clubs -hobby centers.In schools, colledges, universities, community centres.etc.
This means the experienced GW hobbiests concentrate on promoting the hobby,and the 'online -mail order bods' can concentreate on processing the generated sales.

Just voicing some opinions.
TTFN
lanrak.

Lanrak, you've pretty much just described exactly how every Hobby Centre (in the UK at least, can't speak for other countries) should be operating.

Head Office train the managers in how to sell things the GW way. They are then assigned to a store, and off they go. And the key to sustained selling of things is to nurture the Hobby in your area.

GW selling Hobby Products is all about accesibility. Need some decent quality PVA? GW sells it. Need some flock? GW sells it. Need a modelling saw capable of cutting through a model withouth knackering the blade? GW sell it. All things under one roof.

I get what you are saying about this possibly being bad, as it could lead to long term customers demanding spoon feeding in all things. And this is totally down to the Store to prevent. As I mentioned in the earlier post, the terrain being sold should be promoted as merely a beginning. Whether it's cobbling together multiple kits, or incorporating it into a larger piece, it's a start on the road. The terrain itself, be it the woods, hills or buildings, will still sell, and sell well because they are likely to outlast homebuilt terrain.

I would suggest talking to your local store, posing as a customer wanting help and advice on how to do it. Ask if they will be running any scratch built terrain days etc. Just a little pushing should wield results, if your local store is any cop of course!

Done well, such efforts reward the Store immensely. For instance, here is how it should work...

1. Kid comes in.
2. You introduce them to the Hobby with an Intro game, and flog them a Boxed Game.
3. Having flogged said game, get them to attend the Beginners programme.
4. Having attended a few Beginners days, they should by now have a small army, built, based and painted.
5. Then start to sell them terrain, possibly a board (budget allowing) or show them how to build a board.
6. At this point, they have everything they need to start gaming at home.
7. Once gaming at home, start to press the Hobby side, like building your own custom terrain.

Doing this, you can get their friends involved without step 2. This works particularly well if you can get two friends through steps 1 to 5 around the same time. From here, their friends come in around step 2 or 3. Rinse and repeat, and you have a thriving gaming community at a 'grass roots' level.

Crack the grass roots, and the sustainable gaming community soon sees to itself, and the store hits and exceeds it's KPIs, moves up the Company system, and everyone is happy. Step 2 is of course the most clearly mercenary bit, as you are looking at a £50 outlay. But again, done properly the Parents (the most important part!) see their son reading more, being creative, and applying their mind. Parents will seemingly pay any amount of money for such things! Especially if you show Dad how you made your boards, and he wants to do it

The reinforcement of the Grass Roots is key to my plan for my Store. Setup and run a Schools League. Contact the schools, get their gaming clubs mobilised, and host it in-store. The clubs meet and play their league games under my watchful (and dare I say, knowledgable) eye. The kids get to know each other, and come to the Core Club together, and start playing outside of their previous clubs, first in the store then, fingers crossed, in their homes. With just a minimal outlay (I'm happy to personally pay for Prizes!) the Store now has a good chance of retaining all those kids into their late teens, and of course, the more they gamed as Teenagers, the more likely they are to relapse back into gaming once they have discovered Girls and Booze!

I cant see what you mean about GW hobby products, sure there are loads but at my local GW they have no objections to telling you were you can get stuff chaper

HI folks.
MDG.
I am sure you belive in the good that is inspiring creativity in others.We as hobbiests, ALL do. And the view of creating demand by inspiring creativity is not going to be called into question.

However, my concern is with GW PLC attempting to 'plug all the gaps', the percived room for 'creativity' is being reduced.
Compared to the earlier days when everything was 'sociable creativity overdrive'.

And also calling it the 'GW HOBBY' could concivably make it more difficult for people to think it is OK to take ownership of it?

And as you point out the 'GW PLC corperate methods' could/has lead newbs to expect to be spoon fed everything?

But what is the point of stocking 're-branded' products that are available MUCH cheaper elsewhere?
If people buy them at this price to find out they are cheaper elswhere they could feel ripped off?('Convinience' usualy only counts for about 20 to 50% mark up of RRP, not 200 to 800%+).

Or if the staff are totaly honest about how 'overpriced' these items are, and tell the customers where to buy cheaper alternatives.
Which could lead to the impression EVERYTHING is overcosted in the store?

So selling these 'GW HOBBY ' supplies seems to either make the other products look overpriced by association, OR make customers feel ripped off, and posibly send the 'wrong message' about GW games?

Not everyone using GW games is blessed with an 'enthusiastic and inspiring hobbiest' 'showing the way' in a nearby B&M store.
Perhaps if the WD and GW web sites were more about 'inspiration' that 'retail listings',I would not be so concerned.

TTFN
Lanrak.

It's purely a matter of ease of access with the rebranded products. You know you are guaranteed a certain level of quality with a GW branded product. The clippers won't fall apart. The saw keeps it's edge for a long while etc.

We can be honest in some ways. For example, I would never sell the Sand Pot to anyone when I can send them up to the petshop to get a seemingly never ending bag of bird sand for £1. Some still buy it, and thats down to them.

And this is the thing. Look at WD and the Website as an extension of the Shop Shelves. The shop is just a body, and the staff are it's soul. Take the soul away, and it's hollow, just existing without guidance. But in the right hands, it becomes a valuable tool.

Convenience is one thing, but ease of access to newer gamers is more valuable to them. I was always put off building my own terrain as a kid because the articles all referenced Polystyrene Cutters, something I could never find. Mind, I have just picked the one product not currently available from GW stores! But the saws and the scalpels all do the job well, and it saves the parents having to find them elsewhere. And being honest? You would be surprised at just how few people care the products are available cheaper elsewhere, when they are right in front of them. Mad huh?

So it's a very odd job working in the Store. Nurturing a Hobbyist and selling them something doesn't always work at the same time. In my previous times with GW, I've talked kids out of buying something, on account they have lots already and the need to paint it, or perhaps adding a Land Raider to their Eldar force isn't exactly a good use of their limited funds! The best way to sum it up is at times, you need to weigh up your responsibilites to the Company, and your responsibilities to your Community. I might be doing it wrong, but in those times I'd side with the Community. Mainly because if you piss it off too much, it will cease to be. Piss off the company, and it all gets forgotten about sooner or later