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Hi MDG.
Fair point about ease of acess, but why 'price gouge' newbs just because GW can get away with it/they dont know any better?
If GW stocked hobby suplies at just 50% mark up on RRP , it would be better for customer relations surley?
(If GW cant turn a profit charging 50% more than other shops, then they are doing something very wrong!)

And you are absolutley right about the 'soul' of the 'real hobby' being in the hands of people like yourself.

So if you can not or dont know of a 'good' GW store,you just get '... it's hollow, just existing without guidance...' type experiance as you put it.

As WD and the GW web site are the ONLY contact some customers get, they only get the 'the souless extension of the shop.'

EG just selling product , NOT promoting the hobby.

See what I mean about 'corperate accountants' taking something great like 'inspiring creativity in others' and just turn it in to a 'souless marketing exercise'.
And then wonder why the customers leave....

I think we have the same fundamental view , but I want to point out the flaw in the way GW corperate are NOT promoting the hobby properly, and you feel it is you duty to make up for it, by doing it the 'right way'.
You can influence you local gamers to help them get the best from GW games.

But to acess ALL the GW gamers , it takes a change in GW corperate stance on marketing.IMO.

Happy gaming.
Lanrak.

It's a surprising amount of hassle to source hobby supplies these days. Even living in London, I can't find Plastic Padding (Brilliant for filling and surfacing bases) anywhere local, and if I want to buy it on the internet the £8 cost of a tin is overshadowed by the £8 cost of ordering it, making it a much less attractive but. Plasticard products are similar.

(Actually, neither of these is sold by GW either...)

So there is some justification in GW selling hobby supplies. The problem for me is when GW claim to be the whole hobby, as in last year's annual report when they claimed to be 95% of the entire world's wargaming output, obviously ridiculous.

There have been discussions on Dakka before about how much GW shop staff conceal the existence of alternatives. Obviously it's not in GW's interest for its staff to tell WHFB players that Brettonians are overpriced and they should buy Perry Brothers WoTR instead. However, to deny the existence of a wargaming world outside GW is ludicrous.

No doubt the staff behave differently depending on whom they are talking to. In GW Oxford Street, a new member was asking me for advice on clubs to go to.

If MDG can report on such matters without jeopardising his position I will be interested to hear.

You don't so much deny it, as just not bring it up. And without meaning to sound bolshy, why should we? McDonalds would never remind you Burger King is just round the corner before taking your order

As for the 95%, IIRC, that was a figure given by an independant body, rather than GW themselves? Not sure even GW believe that one. 60% is a pretty realistic figure from what I've been told. Anyways!

Yeah, you are allowed to discuss other games with the customers, but it's rarely something that comes up. Or at least, when I last worked for them (2004ish) it rarely came up...only been back on the job for a single shift thus far!

And now for a statement of a personal opinion. This is not the opinion of Games Workshop PLC or anyone else. Just me. Mad Doc Grotsnik, AKA my real name which I'm not going to tell you.

When someone comes online and makes claims about Staff Members denying any other Wargames exist, I see it as 95% made up nonsense. There is always a chance that they ran into an overzealous Staffer with a complex, but overall? No. I don't believe it. Often it's also 'friend of a friend' related, just adding to my incredulous stand point.

As for Clubs, why wouldn't I inform people of the rather spiffy Hydra Gaming Club (Wednesdays, 7-close, Robin Hood Pub, Sandhurst Road, Tunbridge Wells)?? Thats a bloody good way to ensure they are retained in the community, and thus keep spending in my store!

When I worked at Selfridges toy department selling Scalextric, we used to dis Hot Wheels (or whatever it was, the one where the cars stuck to the track magnetically.)

So, yes, I understand the point about directing customers to the competition.

Not Hot Wheels, AFX (Aurora).

It was 30 years ago so I can be forgiven for not remembering the details

I had AFX 30 years ago, so I remember more.

The AFX track connector had a design flaw that keeps breaking.

Thor665 wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I also miss Necromunda, back when they'd admit other companies made models and would even show that they were using them. They would be stabbed in the face if they tried that nowadays. I understand the business practice of it all, but I just don't see why they can't sell modeling supplies and still try to convince us our broken clock radio could be converted into a swell Ork bunker.

What on earth happened to Necromunda? I loved that game but then i drifted away from GW for 10years or so, now i've returned and i don't see anything left, all i see is LotR which looks like another Fantasy spin-off. Im not sure i like the way the games have changed, i'm not sure why they changed to be honest.

This isn't a fricken quote either and who is Thor?! Damn forum bugs

Necromunda is under the Specialist Games section, along with most of the other GW side-project games.

LotR is the third of GW's core games, and nothing like FB.

What forum bugs? You screwed up the coding when quoting a post.

Thor665 wrote:I also miss Necromunda, back when they'd admit other companies made models and would even show that they were using them. They would be stabbed in the face if they tried that nowadays. I understand the business practice of it all, but I just don't see why they can't sell modeling supplies and still try to convince us our broken clock radio could be converted into a swell Ork bunker.

And by 'Specialist Games', Bookwrack of course means 'dead'. Specialist Games get a release every fifth leap year, or something like that.

I'm still amazed we got new Redemptionist models, and they came out years ago.

Guard wrote:

Thor665 wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I also miss Necromunda, back when they'd admit other companies made models and would even show that they were using them. They would be stabbed in the face if they tried that nowadays. I understand the business practice of it all, but I just don't see why they can't sell modeling supplies and still try to convince us our broken clock radio could be converted into a swell Ork bunker.

This isn't a fricken quote either and who is Thor?! Damn forum bugs

Egads, a time paradox!

And, yes, I agree with H.B.M.C. - Specialist Games = dead and forgotten for all intents and purposes. I'm just stoked they still support the sale of the models on their site still, but am never going to hold my breath for any new release on anything under the Specialist umbrella.

Hi all.
I may need to re-write my post to make it very clear the point I was trying,( and failing,) to get across.

Pre PLC days, when it was 'good old Games Workshop', the studio interacted 'directly' with thier customer base.The enthusiasm and creativity of the GW staff permiated across the whole company through every outlet and onto the customers.

GW were more 'honest' about what they did, how they did it, and why.Because the people creating GW products were promoting how to 'grow own your own hobby' with some help ,(and products) from GW.
And customers who totaly understood what GW was about, and had similar mind set to the studio staff , and therfore were more disposed to be long term customers who supported GW for helping them achive thier 'own hobby'.

While this 'promotion of your own hobby' was going on GW grew as a buisness, due to following plans that appeared to promote long term growth of the company.
(Probably because the studio staff wanted to treat fellow hobbiests, as they would want to be treated?)

At some point after GW became a PLC, it seemd to slowly loose focus of its core customer requirment, and be distracted by the 'bottom line'.

I have worked for a few large corperations that have made similar mistakes, they based buisness desicions PURELY on finacial motivation, and totaly forget about the core products and customer requirments.

(If you think of accountants as 'weathermen' that let you know of the 'financial climate.'
Taking what they say on board while going about your buisness , is like taking a finacial ubmbrella when you expect rain, and finacial sun block when a heat wave is expected.
Basing you actions PURLEY on what they say is like ONLY going out when they predict its going to be 'fine. ' )

So rather than give relevant information and support so customers can deside if they can get the most from GW products.(The customers can make an informed chioce.)

GW PLC now seem to just sell product to anyone and everyone.
(The only 'hobby directions' apear to come from people Like MDG in some GW stores.Which is great ,but I dont belive is enough to get the message across to all GW customers.)

GW seem to have switched from steady sustanable long term growth, and replaced it with short term , short sighted 'profiteering.'

As this only serves to reduce the amount of customer/customer spend , (acording to the finacial results.)

GW appear to have 2 options ;-
1/The path of least resistance.Put up prices, and 'hard sell' to as many as possible.But as price barriers reduce uptake of new customers , this causes greater price rises to reclaim lost revenue, which is a slow spiral towards insufficient customers/customer spend.
And more people are displeased because GW product sold to them may not be 'ideal for them'.(Negative word of mouth.)

2 / Switch focus back to the customer requirments, and bieng more forthright about GW products. This is a lot harder to do, mainly because it would mean they have to admit to 'short term profiteering' rather than being concerned over long term sustaniability.Which may not go down too well.

In short , I belive GW can not sustain its self infinately with the current buisnes practice.
But would have to intialy downsise to stabalise itself ready for steady growth.
Fear of lost revenue in the short term is preventing them from avoiding loss of revenue/ going out of buisness in the long term. IMO

So I belive GW PLC has 'painted itself into a corner', as it were.

Thanks for reading ,
Lanrak.

Lanrak wrote:In short , I belive GW can not sustain its self infinately with the current buisnes practice.
But would have to intialy downsise to stabalise itself ready for steady growth.
Fear of lost revenue in the short term is preventing them from avoiding loss of revenue/ going out of buisness in the long term. IMO

So I belive GW PLC has 'painted itself into a corner', as it were.

Thanks for reading ,
Lanrak.

Nice thread, and I'm enjoying the discussion. I agree with just about everything in your post above. When I started in 'The Hobby' @ 1995 (wow, has it really been 14 years already?), GW was not a PLC, and was 'by gamers, for gamers.'

If you read the fluff in 2nd ed codexes, the articles and batreps in white dwarf, etc., everything coming out of the studio was oozing fun, creativity, a little cheekiness, and a laid back attitude. They engendered that in their customers. It was everyone's 'hobby', and they showed us in broad strokes how to play in the universe.

They did this through several, what I consider now, to be great approaches:

1) Focus on LGS - they had Outriders, or GW staff who would travel to LGSs to do demo games, run small tournies, etc., talking up the game. Those LGS days would be destination days, because they'd give away a couple free blisters, you could ask questions, and they'd often sell bitz. There even used to be a bitz wagon that would travel from LGS to LGS selling bitz out the back - it was brilliant (till it got stolen - d'oh!)

2) Games Days - Games Days in the US used to be about the next couple of big releases, which would be available AT Games Day for purchase. New rules, new minis, stand-alone boxed games (Bommerz over the sulfa river, for example). They would have a big store set up, and there would be bargains (gasp!) to be had on older figs, and sometimes newer ones. There was actually a reason to go to GD, aside from the 2 hour wait in the FW line, and the 'non-announcements' we get now..

3) Tournaments - When I started going to the GT's @ 1995, they would have the 'new game' set up in a side conference room (one time it was warmaster), so during breaks you could go out and get or watch a demo of the soon to be released game. They'd have new product, not yet available to the public, for sale at the GTs. They had upcoming figs on display, and a store selling bitz by the ounce. There was a real reason to go to the GT. Heck, I can remember FedExing my application in the day WD hit the stores, because if you didn't get it in, you didn't get in the GT. It was awesome.

4) Grand opening sales at stores. I can remember 25% sales on all products at all the GW stores when a new store would open. There would be people in line 20 deep with hundreds of dollars worth of product. Is that sustainable? Probably not. But it did get people into the store, and product moved.

I'm sure, with a little thought, I could come up with more, but these 4 stick out in my mind. Pre-PLC.

Since PLC, we've seen a clamp down on LGSs, a clamp down on internet discounts, a ton of GW stores open, the bitz service disappear (what they have now is a shallow, pale comparison to the days of yore), prices go up and up and up, no sales, no big releases at Games Days, improving support for the LGSs, and a focus on selling the "GW Hobby" (including all the terrain, brushes, glue, and models).

Now, don't get me wrong, I love the models, their plastics continue to be top-notch, and I love their terrain. Its just that the 'hobbyness' has been replaced with 'corporateness'. I also have to continue to remind myself that I'm not the target demographic. Heck, I'm 40. I'm 26 years past their current target. So I understand what they're doing, I just don't like it

And, I can remember, before I got into the hobby, looking at a blister of then chaos marines (one pose metals), and thinking, "wow, those are expensive." So, really, I don't begrudge them the prices they charge now.

I think, much like Lanrak, that they have painted themselves into a corner, mostly on the basis of being a PLC, and needing to justify things to the shareholders. They have been making strides to be more 'consumer friendly' and their customer service has always been top-notch, but I don't see them as being able to do all the "grass-roots" stuff that they did in the past.

And really, maybe they really don't need to now that they're a multinational PLC. I just don't see how they can keep hiding a lack of stock turnover by just increasing prices. At some point that little exercise in bookeeping is going to bite them.

Personally, I think it is great that GW provides "everything" for its hobbyists. However, I also agree that there is so much more out there for the avid modeler. Making your own from scratch is the hobby's great mark of honor. Still, it is nice to take advantage of some of GW's premium offerings. The buildings for CoD, for example, top notch and awesome. Even the barbed wire you could buy - very nice (though I still make mine out of the spiral from a spiral notebook).

It is nice to be spoiled with choice, even if one gamer could never afford it all.

Jimsolo wrote:I agree with you. But, then again, I dont think gamers are EVER going to be completely satisfied with the business practices of ANY game producing company. And if they are, I think that company is doomed.

I dunno....Battlefront is an amazing company. I really wish more people would try Flames of War. Not only is the modeling support amazing, the game is the most balanced TTW I've played yet. It's a balanced product (versus GW which is all about the modeling and the game is just full of holes and feels tacked on).

I think Battlefront is far from doomed. No one can really compete with GW, but PP and Battlefront share the #2 slot in the industry as far as I can tell.

All I have to say about GW prices until warhammer is more expensive than drinking or smoking .. its not that expensive

For all you drinkers and smokers out there, please consider quitting. It will be the best thing you ever did (for your 40K hobby) because you will be able to buy a lot more minis, paints, and such.

Where I live, 2 boxes of smokes cost the same as a box of firewarriors. Maybe where you live, too.

Nah. I spend £5 every week on rolling baccy, plus around £1-£2 on filters and papers.

My smoking no cost so much.

Kirasu wrote:All I have to say about GW prices until warhammer is more expensive than drinking or smoking .. its not that expensive

The models last longer But admittedly smoking and drinking are probably cheaper per year Wonder when the government will realise they can replace alcohol and tobacco tax with GW product tax... Oh for that day, Marlboro actually affordable realisticly again

Oh and I assume its boxes of 200 cigarettes that cost that much, £18-£20 for 40 would just be insane and you are getting ganked for cash even more than GW gank you for it. In the UK it's the taxes that put the prices up stupidly high. Love those guys in the pubs who happen to have some on the cheap.