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Hi all.
(This may turn into a bit of a ramble , its my age you know... )

After looking at some old WDs with all the hobby articles, scenery moddeling ideas , conversions , scenarios, additional rules for new units etc.(And wonderfuly fun articles from 'ordinary enthusiasts'. )

It struck me that the 'GW studio ethos' of promoting a 'creative hobby experiance' ,( as far as I could tell, ) was supported and re-enforced by the communications with thier consumers.(WD)(GW give you a rough guide on how you can have fun with GW stuff, then you can change it to suit yourself.)

But over time GW PLC seem to have developed/aquired 'GW endorsed hobby supplies ' to cover just about all aspects of a hobby.

And so rather than promote 'the hobby' , GW PLC are just concentrating on 'selling GW hobby supplies' , by infering it all there is/all you need.

This implied 'completness' , to artificialy induce isolation to aid '...maximiseing returns from 'vunerable' customers...'
Seems to be at complete odds with the GW studio ethos.

Unfortunatley , I belive this disjoint in the power struggle between the 'hobbiests and the acountants' at GW towers, has severly restricted the actions of the develpment teams , and thus the options of GW as a company.

GW PLC seem to think that targeting new customers , so they 'buy big leave soon ,to be replaced by another big buyer'
is the best buisness practice.
Its the option that required least effort from GW .

However, as increseing prices is just reducing customer base.(Static turn over , despite over inflation price rises.)
So the new players GW needs to survive, are decreasing due to price barriers preventing new players from starting.

And many existing GW gamers are questioning the level of support/acknowledgment they are getting .And so many leave GW behind.

GW PLC seem to be surviving on ' one off ' releases to keep them in the black.

I can not see how GW PLC are in a long term sustainable position.

I think GW PLC needs to focus on just selling minatures.(Accountant prefered solution.)
Or making great games that gamers want to keep playing, (Hobbiests prefered solution.)

But just selling 'hobby related supplies' ,(at inflated prices,) under the pretence of the ' GW HOBBY' seems to be a comprimise that does no one any good.

Whats your opinion on this folks?

TTFN
Lanrak.

Blah blah blah... 39 years ago , Blah ..

Lanrak, you're spot on. It's odd to see scratch-built terrain in WD these days - it's all available products. Even the boards they play on and take promotional pictures on are the Realm of Battleboard.

The creative aspects of the hobby have changed to the creative aspects of the hobby using only Official GW products from the terrain, glue, the tools you use, the paint-brushes, everthing.

I think you are about right, however I think this strategy works for GW.

GW's target audience is the newbie 12-year-old. GW provides a full service destination for this kind of player.

Fluff, rules, models, paints, tools and supplies, terrain, modelling advice and even games are laid on. Just walk in the door with your birthday cash or your parents, and walk out fully equipped.

Experienced wargamers don't need any of this stuff because they either already have the knowledge or can research and assemble what they need by themselves.

The point is that every year a new crop of 12-year-olds arrives.

Agreed, I recall building a ruined city and chemical refinory plant,from little more than coffe and chip cans & cardboard and masking tape,using ideas inside WD (many moons ago).
I loved the old articles where Andy Chambers would pilage the studio for "just the right bit of junk" for some Orky fortress or such.
Well,now all the kits for cities and such are available ( or soon will be) through GW,and sure that's mighty convienant,and of course the kits look better(especialy if you like skulls),but once again,it sort of takes alot of the fun(IMO) out of the hobby.

A lot of the GW terrain kits are fine, as you can do a hell of a lot with the CoD kits, the arcane ruins, and Warhammer only needs a few bits of terrain here and there.

It's the playing of every game on the RoB board that really pisses me off. Moulded boards are so limiting, and that hill - my God, that hill! - is always going to be there. How can you do a cityboard when that fething hill is always there, or the ground is green? Every game is on that blasted plastic board with the great lines down it... gah! Kills any report they do, and kills promo pictures.

I agree with you. But, then again, I dont think gamers are EVER going to be completely satisfied with the business practices of ANY game producing company. And if they are, I think that company is doomed. *coughPinnaclecough* I mean...it is a tragedy, but since people realized that the gaming industry was an INDUSTRY, it has become a legitimate business to run, and they are running it like a business. And while I hate to say it, they are concerned with what will make them as much money as possible as fast as possible with as little overhead as possible. Everything else is collateral damage. (Including the hobby itself)

A tragedy. I dream of the day that someone proposes a workable solution.

H.B.M.C. wrote:It's the playing of every game on the RoB board that really pisses me off. Moulded boards are so limiting, and that hill - my God, that hill! - is always going to be there. How can you do a cityboard when that fething hill is always there, or the ground is green? Every game is on that blasted plastic board with the great lines down it... gah! Kills any report they do, and kills promo pictures.

My god sir, you crawled inside my brain and took forth from it words, then crawled out and typed them into a computer for me to read again later. I offer forth this quotation of your commentary in order to verify the veracity of said statement.

I also miss Necromunda, back when they'd admit other companies made models and would even show that they were using them. They would be stabbed in the face if they tried that nowadays. I understand the business practice of it all, but I just don't see why they can't sell modeling supplies and still try to convince us our broken clock radio could be converted into a swell Ork bunker.

Not to worry,GW will no doubt eventualy release a "city fight" RoB board,then instead of the moulded hill being a point of contention,we can have moulded piles of skulls or a wrecked Leman Russ.
Which is basicly my point,when we all built our own terrain and battle grounds,there was some uniqueness now,like most things GW,loads of vanallia.

1.REPLACE ALL EXPENSIVE PHOTOGRAPHY IN COMPANY PROPAGANDA LEAFLET WITH TEXT BOX MARKED 'BUY COMPANY PRODUCT'.



2.INCREASE PRICE OF COMPANY PROPAGANDA LEAFLET.


3.EXALT

You can still build your own terrain and use your own models. And there are plenty of other companies making terrain.

Don't get sucked into the GW == Hobby mindset.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:1.REPLACE ALL EXPENSIVE PHOTOGRAPHY IN COMPANY PROPAGANDA LEAFLET WITH TEXT BOX MARKED 'BUY COMPANY PRODUCT'.



2.INCREASE PRICE OF COMPANY PROPAGANDA LEAFLET.


3.EXALT

Forgive my earlier blasphamy,what I ment to say was that I shall cheerfully open my wallet and pour forth tribute to our overlords...CASH FOR THE CASH GOD!!

They still do the scratch built ones, just not enough detail into them >_>
The one that came out in the month of the Planet Strike release had an Eldar bastion made out of an old soda bottle and a crappy candle stick holder.

It did have some random parts on it as well though and they only showed you it completed

Thor665 wrote:
I just don't see why they can't sell modeling supplies and still try to convince us our broken clock radio could be converted into a swell Ork bunker.

You sir have crawled into my head aswell, as my clock fell off the wall last week, leaving the frame broken, but just the right size/shape for an ork bunker

I figure they are doing this whole hobby related product focus to increase their overall sales and like someone above said, make it a final destination for people looking to get into the hobby. As far as making money goes, it seems like a sound plan, especially for new, entry gamers. Its a lot easier to hook people if it is convenient (IE can get models, glues, paints, tools, terrain, dice, you name it) at one location.

My question is:
Is it working? Has GW increased revenue or sales since releasing this stuff?

FITZZ wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:1.REPLACE ALL EXPENSIVE PHOTOGRAPHY IN COMPANY PROPAGANDA LEAFLET WITH TEXT BOX MARKED 'BUY COMPANY PRODUCT'.



2.INCREASE PRICE OF COMPANY PROPAGANDA LEAFLET.


3.EXALT

Forgive my earlier blasphamy,what I ment to say was that I shall cheerfully open my wallet and pour forth tribute to our overlords...CASH FOR THE CASH GOD!!

WALLETS FOR THE WALLET THRONE!

I have to say that I think what GW are doing in terms of offering "the complete packege" is just good business sense. If they have the ability to sell products that thier customers are interested in buying then they would be crazy not to.

One of the major complaints from relatively new (and also some rather lazy!) customers was that GW would suggest ideas in White Dwarf and they wouldn't know where to get the required items from or just wanted to be able to get everything under one roof.

Just because GW sell tools and other modeling material doesn't mean that anyone is forced to buy them, it just gives them the chance to obtain them more easily, if a customer wants to pay a premium for that convienience then it is no different to someone getting a take away pizza, yes it costs more than if you got it from Tesco and cooked it yourself, but it takes no effort.

Most of us know that it is cheaper to pick up the majority of GW product anywhere other than in their stores, but we still use them for A, convienience and B, a place to meet like minded people to chat, game against and to and share ideas with.

With regards to trying to impress new customers and not paying attention to their existing ones, this is sadly indicative of most major corporations. Once people are through the door and have tried the product they will either keep using/buying it or they will move on to somethings else. When a customer has decided to move away froma rpoduct their is generaly very little that can pursuade them otherwise, so rather than try to keep an existing customer the company will look for a new one.

GW is in a unique position that they are the only miniatures manufacturer with a major high street presence. This generaly means that people first getting into the hobby will come to them, they will enter a shop and find everything they need under one roof, this stops them looking elsewhere for secondary products like paint where they could also stumble across another manufacturers product. By the time the customer has found out about other brands they will already have invested heavily into GW so will be reluctant to move away from it.

Would be cool if someone that is not running a company that sell the models made a magazine about miniature wargaming.

But i think that a big part has moved to the web. maybe sometime in the future, each month dakka can collect the best articles ,tuts and stuff like that and put it in a good printable pdf file.

I think it's very sound business sense to sell everything needed for your product under one roof.

White Dwarf has always been GW's Miniatures Catalogue, and as such it is hardly surprising to see an in-house publication constantly pushing and praising it's own output.

But also consider the Internetwebs. When I got into Gaming, White Dwarf was my only source of information, and it did a fine job of showing me how to build stuff, paint stuff, convert stuff, scratch build stuff etc. And I know I am not alone in this experience. And of course, those of us who learnt that way now go online and offer up blogs of projects, with step by step how to guides and photos. In this respect, we do far more than GW ever could, so why should they bother? Thats a lot of repeated effort. People often say GW don't understand the Interwebs, but I suspect they understand it just fine, and have used it's presence to allow them to focus on their own products.

As H.B.M.C. said, the Buildings and stuff are actually pretty awesome. Good quality, very interchangable, and for a pretty resonable price. Thus GW have covered this base for most people. Sorry...starting to ramble. Apologies.

Ah yes! With things like the Realm of Battleboard, I suspect that was done as a quick marketing exercise, and for sake of completing their range. You can now literally walk into a GW store knowing nothing, heavily abuse your Credit Card, and walk out with everything you will ever need to get games going. Is the hill irritating? You betcha! It's even worse in Fantasy! But give it time. Board hasn't been out for even a year, and I am confident we will see additional tiles coming out for it sooner rather than later, some flat, some featured etc, but GW would be fools not to!

And whilst I'm on it. The subject of who exactly GW is marketing to always seems a little stacked to me. GW are of course concerned with bringing in new customers. Any company in it's right mind does this. Existing customers are golden, but newbies are the Grail. So yeah, the Stores are indeed largely geared up with the Newbie in mind. This has been an integral part of GW's business plan more a long old time now. And being a Hobby game, just how much can they actually do for the more experienced player that they don't already do? Tournaments are run in the UK (but not in the US now I believe?). They offer up Games Days. The stores even offer us a free place to play and meet other gamers. But it's the Community, NOT GW that keep us active. For example, in my town we now have our very own Wargames Club, setup by gamer that met, you guessed it, through GW. Even the Manager of the store attends when time allows. So in my town at least, GW have very much succeeded. There is now in place a self supporting Gaming Community, and the GW Store could be seen as the central hub for our activities, even if we don't play there that often!

Yeah, GW is pricing out the newbies hence the latest boxed starter set being the best yet price wise. Everything else is window dressing, you don't need every gaking thing they sell to play the game and back in the day half those wonderful models didn't even exist.
How many articles on just this board are there about people trying to achieve a similar effect to some fancy model through kit bashing, conversion or using alternatives; GW sucking the life out of the hobby? No way and there are tonnes of folk out there getting enjoyment from doing their own versions of sternguard etc.

You will pay $2 for a $0.25 soda if it's chilled in a vending machine. You will pay $6 for a $1 beer if it's served cold at the bar. If you go to a sporting event, double both numbers.

Your point?

/sigh...

Since this has come up so many times, I'll just say this.

GW will advertise it's products. That's what they do. But think about it this way. The new gamer, who is obviously excited at the concept of pre-made terrain, will eventually make his/her own terrain to save money.

Don't like it? Neither do I. But that's what they're doing, so I guess I can't do much about it.

JohnHwangDD wrote:You will pay $2 for a $0.25 soda if it's chilled in a vending machine. You will pay $6 for a $1 beer if it's served cold at the bar. If you go to a sporting event, double both numbers.

Your point?

As you probably know that´s called Added Value and the point most are trying to make is, if GW´s hobby supplies Added Value is enough to offset the high mark up or not. And for me, it is not.
As MDG and others wrote before, perhaps GW has a very clear idea of their potential market (the 12 y/o) and they don´t care about anything else when designing new rules, products, advertising, etc. I couldn´t care less about this but when people start identifying [cressendo]THE HOBBY[/cressendo] with using GW figures, GW paints, GW scenery, GW glue... it rubs me the wrong way to no end.

M.

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

FITZZ wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:1.REPLACE ALL EXPENSIVE PHOTOGRAPHY IN COMPANY PROPAGANDA LEAFLET WITH TEXT BOX MARKED 'BUY COMPANY PRODUCT'.



2.INCREASE PRICE OF COMPANY PROPAGANDA LEAFLET.


3.EXALT

Forgive my earlier blasphamy,what I ment to say was that I shall cheerfully open my wallet and pour forth tribute to our overlords...CASH FOR THE CASH GOD!!

WALLETS FOR THE WALLET THRONE!

CASH FOR THE CASH GOD! CURRENCY FOR THE CURRENCY THRONE!
$ $

What did you expect? They re-package $0.48 white glue into a tube that says "Games Workshop PVA glue" and sell it for $8.25.

Let me says that again. They re-package $0.48 white glue into a tube that says "Games Workshop PVA glue" and sell it for $8.25............$0.48..........$8.25.........

The "added value" in white glue is............ . . . . . . . ?

I don´t know, perhaps the "GW PVA glue" sticker has a very high resale value in the darkgrim market.

M.

Actually, I think Games Workshop PVA is made from Unicorns rather than regular horses, that may explain why it's over 17 times more expensive.

PENNYS FOR THE PENNY JAR!

mattyboy22 wrote:What did you expect? They re-package $0.48 white glue into a tube that says "Games Workshop PVA glue" and sell it for $8.25.

Let me says that again. They re-package $0.48 white glue into a tube that says "Games Workshop PVA glue" and sell it for $8.25............$0.48..........$8.25.........

The "added value" in white glue is............ . . . . . . . ?

They do classic saleman thing, Get as much money you can for less work. An old anecdote of a man paying a boy to chop firewood for 5 dollar. Then the man sold the firewood for 25 dollar for one stock. And the boy wanted more pay, and the man just said "No, that is not what we agreed on". D:

mattyboy22 wrote:What did you expect? They re-package $0.48 white glue into a tube that says "Games Workshop PVA glue" and sell it for $8.25.

Let me says that again. They re-package $0.48 white glue into a tube that says "Games Workshop PVA glue" and sell it for $8.25............$0.48..........$8.25.........

The "added value" in white glue is............ . . . . . . . ?

Here in Australia I can't find the same type of glue that comes in at least less then 200ml (GW one is 14-20ml iirc) and thats around $2. Whereas the GW is $14 somehow
I assume it has magical properties.