Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Alpharius wrote:
I like Bull Centaurs and eagerly await to see what they will look like now that GW (more or less) can sculpt a bit better than the first few go-rounds...

With respect Alpharius, what can you do with a dwarf on the body of a horse?

Flashman wrote:

Alpharius wrote:
I like Bull Centaurs and eagerly await to see what they will look like now that GW (more or less) can sculpt a bit better than the first few go-rounds...

With respect Alpharius, what can you do with a dwarf on the body of a horse?

I don't know, just ask Catherine the Great, right?

All kidding aside, I want GW to update Dragon Ogres and the entire Chaos Dwarf line. I think they'd be fantastic!

Yep, Dragon Ogres could do with a Shaggoth type sculpt, slightly smaller obviously.

Great, more rules to not learn for a game I rarely play. Would that Fantasy was more to me than griping about the rules every nine months. Chronicles 2006 is my bible.

Picking up Skull Pass this month.

Flashman wrote:

George Spiggott wrote:

Flashman wrote:A new Orcs and Goblins book would be the first time that GW have broken the warhammer fantasy army book cycle (i.e. releasing an army book before all the races have been catered for in that cycle)

The first time since the last (6th) edition yes? When Chaos Dwarves (Dwarfs?) and Dogs of War failed to get a book.

Think those two were experiments and anyway the Chaos Dwarfs book was just a collection of WD articles with a cover. Bull Centaurs, honestly!

Really?

I have a bound & printed Army Book that says Dogs of War weren't an experiment, but an actual army

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Flashman wrote:

George Spiggott wrote:

Flashman wrote:A new Orcs and Goblins book would be the first time that GW have broken the warhammer fantasy army book cycle (i.e. releasing an army book before all the races have been catered for in that cycle)

The first time since the last (6th) edition yes? When Chaos Dwarves (Dwarfs?) and Dogs of War failed to get a book.

Think those two were experiments and anyway the Chaos Dwarfs book was just a collection of WD articles with a cover. Bull Centaurs, honestly!

Really?

I have a bound & printed Army Book that says Dogs of War weren't an experiment, but an actual army

There are a few armies I regard as experiments on the part of GW, Dogs of War, Lizardmen, Ogre Kingdoms. Some of them have worked, others abandoned after they had run their course. The main problem with Dogs of War was that it enabled other armies to cancel out their weaknesses and GW (possibly rightly) decided that wasn't the way to go.

Dogs of War were best as an army in and of themselves- I'd love to see both them and Chaos Dwarves make a comeback.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Flashman wrote:

George Spiggott wrote:

Flashman wrote:A new Orcs and Goblins book would be the first time that GW have broken the warhammer fantasy army book cycle (i.e. releasing an army book before all the races have been catered for in that cycle)

The first time since the last (6th) edition yes? When Chaos Dwarves (Dwarfs?) and Dogs of War failed to get a book.

Think those two were experiments and anyway the Chaos Dwarfs book was just a collection of WD articles with a cover. Bull Centaurs, honestly!

Really?

I have a bound & printed Army Book that says Dogs of War weren't an experiment, but an actual army

This is bizarre, you've just told me in another thread that in 40k only popular armies get updates on a regular basis and that if I didn't like it, I should leave the game?

Dogs of War was not a huge success, they are now no longer viable because of too few sales. Guess my advice to you is the same as that which you just offered me...

JohnHwangDD wrote:Core armies get updates more frequently than others. That's a fact.

Armies are NOT equal. Never have been, never will be. If you can't deal with it, you know where the door is. Try not to let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.

The idea that the support is improper is odd. If the army gets an update, it's supported.

Your army was unpopular and GW couldn't be bothered to support it, you got squatted. If you don't like that and feel that your miniatures are sitting there gathering dust, I guess you should find that very same door mate.

What's interesting to me is that here and on 'Seer I have not seen a single post whining about 8th edition Fantasy but whenever GW announce a new 40k, even with the 6year gap between 3rd and 4th people get all up in arms over it.

If Fantasy is as balanced as people say it is and 40k needs major overhauls to get right, which people seem to think GW can't do, than wouldn't it piss people off more to shell out money for a new rulebook every 4 years that might constitute a few pages worth of rules changes vs a book that changes 95% of the rules.

After all, not all the Fantasy armies by my understanding have been updated to 7th yet.

Do 40k players just whine that much more?

Fantasy changes to the main rulebook don't tend to invalidate models, as Fantasy is less WYSIWYG dependant and 'upgrade' characters don't really exist in Fantasy, so you're less likely to have models you can't use when the rules are updated unlike in 40k

Vete pal cara..... I haven't even play a game in 7th and 8th is rolling around damn.

I just want to see my beloved yet tragically gimped Orges redone, although O&G certainly need a new book too.


...and for them to nerf daemons, or just make the army illegal and say it was a joke

Just so long as Gav has nothing to do with the rules...

I'll be happy to see a new O&G book myself.

@MGS: Perhaps you need to put brain in gear while reading?

In the other thread, I said that there's no hard promise for uniform updates to 40k Codices. That's clearly supported by simple fact and observation, something a primary schooler could be made to understand.

In this thread, I'm saying that DoW & CD weren't "experiments" if they reached the full Army Book stage. DoW clearly reached that stage. Ergo, they're not an experiment in like a Storm of Chaos or Eye of Terror campaign army.

Simple distinction, IMO.


Now in the case of DoW, obviously, they wouldn't be updated as often as Empire. I'm completely OK with that.


And until such time as GW prints a DoW book, I'm staying out of WFB.

So I guess I actually am following my own advice.

Imagine that, consistency!

JohnHwangDD wrote:@MGS: Perhaps you need to put brain in gear while reading?

In the other thread, I said that there's no hard promise for uniform updates to 40k Codices. That's clearly supported by simple fact and observation, something a primary schooler could be made to understand.

In this thread, I'm saying that DoW & CD weren't "experiments" if they reached the full Army Book stage. DoW clearly reached that stage. Ergo, they're not an experiment in like a Storm of Chaos or Eye of Terror campaign army.

Simple distinction, IMO.


Now in the case of DoW, obviously, they wouldn't be updated as often as Empire. I'm completely OK with that.


And until such time as GW prints a DoW book, I'm staying out of WFB.

So I guess I actually am following my own advice.

Imagine that, consistency!

Thank you for your kind words, are you missing HBMC especially today or something?

JohnHwangDD wrote:Brick infantry is the biggest problem, because there don't seem to be enough advantages for wanting to take them. And even then, the problem is that you only take them 5-wide, and the different bases cause weird frontage problems. Weird problem for a game supposedly about ranked combat...

Ranks vs. base size poses a conundrum, to which I propose a simple fix. 20mm wide base, 5 to a rank. 25mm wide, 4 to a rank. 40mm wide, 3 to a rank. Anything on a base 50mm wide, or classified as a monster, may neither form ranks nor join units. (TK would keep their special rule for ranked chariot units, because it's special.)

And I wish they'd go back to redirecting charges, because it really was a lot simpler than Enemy in the Way turned out to be.

Are you listening, GW?

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Thank you for your kind words, are you missing HBMC especially today or something?

No problem, et tu?

FWIW, today's same as everyday, tho it's a bit odd we got into it. I chalk it up to general unease recovering from illness.

Besides, I'm always "missing" HMBC because I generally don't read him.
____

@fellblade: That's a sensible solution, that should have been implemented for 7th Ed. However, now that 25mm bases require 5-wide, 20mm would need to be at least 6-wide. And really, maintaining the status quo of 5-wide for 25mm based infantry doesn't drive more sales of brick infantry, so you'd need to bump them to 6-wide for 25mm, meaning 7-wide for 20mm... I could see this, because, with one fell swoop, "horde" armies go from 20-model minimum (5x4) to 30-model minimum (7x4).

Fateweaver wrote:Do 40k players just whine that much more?

Hmm they've got reason to. All thopse stupid rules designed around getting 2 year olds into playing now.
But in some respects WHFB players have reasons to as well, but thankfuly such a huge change in the basic rules system hasnt happened there. My main gripe is the change to MoT and not able to have chaos warriors, daemons and beasts of chaos in one big warband now
Oh and I prefer pure sword n sorcery, this cannons, explosives etc stuff has a place I suppose and thats only in dwarf armies

Flashman wrote:I suppose Orcs, Dwarfs and Empire are oft mentioned as being out of touch with Daemons, Vampires et al. Perhaps they feel the need to revisit them for this reason.

Expect there to be some kind of new Orc war machine that costs £35. A troll lobber or something...

I'll give this a crack.

Waaagh Mobile.

CORE 1+:

M10 WS4, BS3, ST6, T7, I5, A(special), W10, LD10.

1+ armour save
4+ Ward save
Regeneration
Always Strikes First

Attacks: 2d6+1 St6 impact hits (armour piercing,flaming, magical) and 2d6+1 St 6 attacks per combat phase (armour piercing,flaming, magical).

WAAAGH Power!: All units in the army turn a squabble animosity result into a Waaagh! result and move 2d6 forward rather than 1d6. If a Natural Waaagh is rolled... move forward 3d6. Any unit affected that moves into combat that phase will have Always Strikes First.

Also each shooting phase all enemy units within 12 inches are hit with a green zzzap of Waaagh Power and take 2d6 St6 hits (armour piercing, flaming, magical), and if a unit takes a wound must take a panic test). This still occurs even if the Waaagh Mobile is in combat and enemy units in combat may be affected. LOS is not needed.

Counts as a warmachine.

Unbreakable

180 points

Its like I'm chanelling the development team for the last 4 books....

To clarify : the orc and goblin book should hit early 2011, not 2010, as it will, of course, be amongst the first few of the books for the new system.

Most, if not all, of the armies* should have had/get an update for the current rules by the time the new rules hit.

*Don't really follow that much fantasy myself, so a bit of leeway here please.

And no, Dogs of War will not be getting one AFAIK.. I think they really are "squatted" for the foreseeable future.

By my reckoning we have the following books left in the current cycle.

Beasts of Chaos
Tomb Kings
Ogre Kingdoms
Wood Elves
Bretonnia

Beasts of Chaos are clearly on the horizon with Tomb Kings mooted as the one to arrive after that. That leaves three to be released before Orcs and Goblins in Q1 2011.

My opinion is that at least two of the three are going to be gazumped (i.e. released after Orcs and Goblins).

I get the feeling that unless the ruleset really changes things, it will be a while before the wood elves get a new book.

They got a hell of a lot of plastic the last time around. And that seems to be what drives the book releases more than when the previous book came out.

Wood Elves and Bretonnia both continue to work well, so I'd imagine it'd be those two shunted back by the Greenies.

Ogres and Tomb Kings sorely need it. They suffer from not only aging badly, but also having been released as new armies during the 'no model, no entry' era of design theory, meaning they don't have a great deal of variety right now.

Existing models wise, Ogres are fine and dandy, one of the nicer ranges out there barring the inexplicably spank Butcher, whereas Tomb Kings do need some work (VC Skellies are superior in every possible way). So I reckon TK then Ogreses.

Harry seems to hinting towards a third Warhammer army release before 8th hits next year, after BoC and Tomb Kings.
Due to the plastics already available they could probably squeeze Ogres in just before hand with out needing a large minatures release. Its certainly a possibility.

Shame its going to be Empires/Orcs again in the box, thats three times for Greenskins and twice for Empire, would have been nice to see something new. Although its possible with the Goblins from Skull Pass sitting in a box, I'd have a relatively cheap 1500pt Orc army available this time next year, so could be a bonus.

Other than that, bring it on. I'm happy to look at a new edition.

Hmm I just made the switch from O&G to Lizardmen because I was sick of rolling 1's and 6's......maybe a new book will bring back my love?

Jin wrote: Hope they don't go full pendulum swing with the O&G book.

What I predict:
1) O&G magic gets hit hard, either in their favor or against.
2) Goblins get the Skaven treatment (1/2 point upgrades).
3) Magic items are re-written. Some options are made better, most are either removed or completely re-written to be less powerful than they are now (Shaga's Screaming Sword probably will be reduced to something like +1S and +1A if any characters get within 12" of the bearer, Tricksy Trinket becomes re-roll successful Wards, Martog's Best Basha is +10pts in cost at least).
4) Panic Chart is re-written. Either only Goblins not cause panic, only Black Orcs ignore panic from fleeing units, or something similar.
5) Black Orcs, Big 'Uns and Boar Boyz go up in points. Again.
6) Hero / Unit Level Special Characters. Borgut might make a return. Those characters with (relatively) recent models (Grimgor, Azhag, Skarsnik, Gorbad) are kept. Grom might go missing again.
7) Something is done to the animosity chart. Maybe it's removed and made like 40K (Orcs function as normal, once per game can declare a Waaagh! that adds D6 to charge range, but a roll of a one causes D6 casualties to a unit), maybe it goes back to last edition's set, maybe it gets modifiers depending on the unit. But odds are something is going to be done with it.

EDIT: 8) Snotlings become useful again.

Fateweaver wrote:What's interesting to me is that here and on 'Seer I have not seen a single post whining about 8th edition Fantasy but whenever GW announce a new 40k, even with the 6year gap between 3rd and 4th people get all up in arms over it.

If Fantasy is as balanced as people say it is and 40k needs major overhauls to get right, which people seem to think GW can't do, than wouldn't it piss people off more to shell out money for a new rulebook every 4 years that might constitute a few pages worth of rules changes vs a book that changes 95% of the rules.

After all, not all the Fantasy armies by my understanding have been updated to 7th yet.

Do 40k players just whine that much more?

Most of the balance issues from the books tend to come from individual army books (imo) than the core set. With some exceptions (ranking as mentioned), the core rules are pretty sound with just a need for some tweaking. IIRC, 7th's biggest change was the move to frontage of 5 for rank bonuses. As skyth also mentions - the rules on weapons tends to change less as well, making core rule changes not usually horrible.

My personal wishes for changes-
Focus on infantry blocks as JHDD suggests.
De-emphasis on Hero-hammer/Monster-hammer (this would really be more of a Army Book-based change, though they could implement some benefits to bigger infantry blocks).
Re-worked CC To Hit Table (not gonna happen, but I can dream, dammit).
Wouldn't mind regular bows/longbows being a bit better, but don't really care about this too much.

Biggest changes in 7th also included the Magic shake up, which prevented lower levelled casters just acting as Batteries for the big boys spells.

Oh, and the building rules, which are pretty sweet in my opinion!

As for imbalances in the books, in my experience rather than a book being inherently flawed, it's more specific builds people can take. Daemons for example, have a few inherently horrible builds popular on the Tournament circuit. When not being played with those lists, the army is good fun to play against.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Harry seems to hinting towards a third Warhammer army release before 8th hits next year, after BoC and Tomb Kings.
Due to the plastics already available they could probably squeeze Ogres in just before hand with out needing a large minatures release. Its certainly a possibility.

Shame its going to be Empires/Orcs again in the box, thats three times for Greenskins and twice for Empire, would have been nice to see something new. Although its possible with the Goblins from Skull Pass sitting in a box, I'd have a relatively cheap 1500pt Orc army available this time next year, so could be a bonus.

Other than that, bring it on. I'm happy to look at a new edition.

really didn't hear that over at warseer. i would have guessed daemons would be in it due to the fact that they are ridiculously newb friendly.

EDIT: ahh you have that a bit wrong he started a thread (we are thinking of the same harry right?) on warseer he was quoting someone from BoLS who said:

"blahblahblah 8th ed fantasy out summer 2010 with new starter set in fall, ive heard orcs and goblins and empire will feature, with O&G getting an update q1 2010.blahblahblah"

not a very reliable source as O&G aren't coming in 2010.


also @JHDD and MGS: could you guys stop arguing about petty things,no offense but its getting a bit pathetic.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Biggest changes in 7th also included the Magic shake up, which prevented lower levelled casters just acting as Batteries for the big boys spells.

Oh, and the building rules, which are pretty sweet in my opinion!

As for imbalances in the books, in my experience rather than a book being inherently flawed, it's more specific builds people can take. Daemons for example, have a few inherently horrible builds popular on the Tournament circuit. When not being played with those lists, the army is good fun to play against.

If the book as two or three inherently horrible builds, the book is inherently flawed.