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I'm with Kanluwen on this one.

From a certain standpoint, there is a flexibility to the game and MagikalMemories is certainly right in that YOU may do whatever YOU wish with your army.

However, I'm just not for it.

In my opinion (OPINION, NOT FACT) it seems like you just wanted to use Grey Knights in a Chaos army. Which seems pretty lame, IMHO.

I mean, why don't I use a bunch of Chaos Daemons as an loyalist force? I mean, I could make up some fluff about it or something, but there's a point where it seems a bit too much, IMHO.

And yes, not a single Grey Knight as fallen to Chaos. Chaos finds the concept of the Grey Knights as anathema itself, Greater Daemons cannot even possess Grey Knights. However, they certainly make for great sport to kill.

How to you plan to explain all the bonuses against Chaos, daemons and psykers?

I'm gonna vote no to Chaos Grey Knights. I feel like it's commonly done just as a way to "stick it to the man" in fluff terms.

n0t_u wrote:Then if anyone asks they were fancy Death Watch
Grey Knights have to be possessed by a Daemon and manage to beat it in order to become a Grey Knight, that makes it impossible, or nearly impossible, for them to ever be corrupted by chaos. So basically they have plot armour against Daemons

But, honestly it's all up to you. If you think it's cool go for it. Others will come and complain, but for all we know Grey Knights could be retconned and GW could run with something similar for one of their codex stories.


I guess you could say that they aren't corrupted by chaos, just that they somehow see the loyalists as traitors to the Imperium after coming to some realisation while they were all stuck in the warp.

Wow so the Grey Wardens in Dragon Age: Origins really are just a direct rip off of 40k even in their name?

Henners91 wrote:

n0t_u wrote:Then if anyone asks they were fancy Death Watch
Grey Knights have to be possessed by a Daemon and manage to beat it in order to become a Grey Knight, that makes it impossible, or nearly impossible, for them to ever be corrupted by chaos. So basically they have plot armour against Daemons

But, honestly it's all up to you. If you think it's cool go for it. Others will come and complain, but for all we know Grey Knights could be retconned and GW could run with something similar for one of their codex stories.


I guess you could say that they aren't corrupted by chaos, just that they somehow see the loyalists as traitors to the Imperium after coming to some realisation while they were all stuck in the warp.

Wow so the Grey Wardens in Dragon Age: Origins really are just a direct rip off of 40k even in their name?

pretty much both will go to almost any means neccisary to achieve there goals as well

1hadhq wrote:

Shaman wrote:
The Imperium is full of liars.

Rather not. Lies are the usual way of communication of chaos.

Actually it's THEIR game and you play by THEIR rules.

It's YOUR army, and if you want YOUR army to have some form of divergence, you damned well better take the time to explain it and not use "Chaos did it!" as the catch-all.

Once we pay our money for it, it is ours. We can do whatever we want with it. Whether it's models or rules.
If we want to change the rules, we can. GW even says so themselves.

Here's what I am honestly having a problem comprehending; Why is it such a big deal to you? Why do you feel it necessary to constantly try to browbeat someone out of realizing their ideas?
For the record, "you" is NOT pointing out ANY single person. rather, it's a catchall to refer to those who are so steadfastly against it.

Also, for those who turn the tables and use loyalist Demons as a counterpoint. First off, if it works for you, go for it. Secondly, it's not the same thing. Aside from marneus Calgar's gauntlets, the Imperium does not subvert Chaos, while subversion is a regular tool of Chaos. For all the "GK never possessed by chaos" thing... that is the EXACT kind of thing they'd try to hide.

You can't claim purity for a group of people who sacrifice 1000 innocent lives every DAY to the God-King they worship whose life is sustained through a device powered by the blood of innocent civilians.

Okay... you CAN, but it'd be hypocritical.

Eric

Why can't there just be a chaos version of the inquisition, one that seeks out defenders of the imperium. Makes more sense and sounds like a pretty cool idea.

Simply put:
It's one of those ideas that is trying too hard to be taken seriously and is trying to have a background justification for something that *would not happen, ever*.

For all your shenanigans of "GK get possessed by Chaos and it gets covered up", it doesn't work. We'd have heard about an incredibly powerful possessed Psyker. Daemons also wouldn't be nearly as...well, scared as they are of the Grey Knights if they could fall prey to daemonic corruption. We'd also have the Grey Knights themselves mentioning it, since they're not like the Dark Angels and hiding their secrets from the Inquisition and the Imperium at large. Admittedly--their EXISTENCE is a ridiculously well-kept secret, to the point where even the Astartes don't really know about them. But, again, they reverently honor their dead and make it a point to recover the bodies for internment in the crypts of Titan. The only bodies that they have not recovered are from worlds where the Knights themselves call down Exterminatus and can't get out.

And frankly, "good Daemons" are more likely than "corrupted Grey Knights". We're told that there *are* Warp entities that embody the good aspects of Mankind...it's just that they're so ridiculously outnumbered by the evil that we never really heard of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sneezypanda wrote:Why can't there just be a chaos version of the inquisition, one that seeks out defenders of the imperium. Makes more sense and sounds like a pretty cool idea.

...Because they'd have to be working inside of Imperial space?

The only real way for that to work is if it's:
A) A follow-up to a Chaos invasion that is actively claiming, and holding, territories(which is rare. They usually burn, pillage, and retreat)
B) Inside of the Warp itself...where there's no real presence of Imperial loyalists.

How does that not make sense? Why does a chaos inquisition have to be like the Imperial Inquisition? To me, a chaos inquisition would try to destroy the entire planet in the name of the chaos gods.

Really, the point is that there are so many better ways to pull off the fluff for an army like this, to simply make it that way because you can say so is a waste.

Sneezypanda wrote:How does that not make sense? Why does a chaos inquisition have to be like the Imperial Inquisition? To me, a chaos inquisition would try to destroy the entire planet in the name of the chaos gods.

Then by that logic every single Chaos force that has ever existed is "the Chaos Inquisition".

Choas is by it's nature chaotic. Large scale organisation of Chaos forces, especially secret networks inside Imperial space, would be tough.

There are obviously many chaos cults/etc within Imperial space, and some of them will work together, even over different systems. Some Daemons also network many hundreds of worlds to form massive cults all working for them (see the Grey Knights Omnibus - can't remember which daemon it was - St Evisers trail? Something like that).

However, that was a greater daemon of chaos (and a servent of Tzeentch too), and it worked for over 1,000 years on it's plans (possibly even more, given how old the trail was).

Such organisations can and evidently do exist in Imperial space, meaning that the existance of some kind of anti-inquisition is possible, although it would be hard to pull off, given that it would have to be even more secret than the regular inquisition in order to survive.

Your best bet for such an organisation is a loose association of rogue inquisitors, working either within the existing Inquisition to bring it down from the inside (or at least to divert it from some things etc... usual chaos subversion tactics).

So that covers the possibility of chaos inquisitors. They happen. Chaos Inquisition? Possible, but it would probably not be a very smooth relationship, unless all the inquisitors are working for the same power and have more or less the same goals, which in itself is unlikley

As for fallen GK's... no. All the current fluff says no, most people who you try to sell your fluff to will say no too, if they know anything about GK's at all (and here I am saying no to mean "no, that would not gel with existing fluff on the subject", rather than "no! Take your heathen GK army and never use it again, for your anti-fluff means you can't use your models either!").

As has been mentioned several times now, fluff-wise, it is entirely possible for some other inquisitorial SM's to fall to chaos and form some kind of CSM Inquisition with their Inquisitor.

Hell, you can even use GK figures to represent them (I mentioned earlier that they could use a simmilar system of wards etc on their armour to keep the daemons inside safe from harm, or some other fluff, which would mean their armour looked similar).

But using actual GK's in your fluff?

Just no. Certainly not from where I and the fluff are sitting (it is nice and soft, sitting on the fluff ).

The bigger question is why would a Grey Knight which had broke the mould and fought through everything which was in his nature to turn to chaos, take orders from an Inquisitor?

As for Inquisitors turning to chaos, that happens all the time.

I'm sure you can find something interesting to use the Grey Knight rules, which likely fits in better with your army.

As for the special rules, logically someone who has been inside the warp for someone, is touched by the warp, and understands the warp, is likely to have a better idea on how to banish or hinder it. So I don't see that as an issue at all.

It's one of those ideas that is trying too hard to be taken seriously and is trying to have a background justification for something that *would not happen, ever*.

Seriously?
Are you trying to use a reality based argument for a game of mandollies?
Dude.
Blood Angels will never exist IRL. That doesn't stop you from accepting THEIR fluff.
Heck, Grey Knights will never exist, but you're defending them tooth and nail.
What "wound not [or would] happen, ever" cannot be properly defended when referring to fictional characters.

In context of the game, you cannot say what will or will not *ever* happen. You do not know. Simply because GW has shoved some stories about "uncorruptable" Grey Knights at you, you're taking it as gospel. It's fiction, man. Fiction.

If GW thinks they'll make a ton of money from selling a novel about a GK Grandmaster that becomes possessed by a powerful Daemon of (insert God here), they'll sell it.

If they thought up the "Chaos Inquisition" and thought that they'd make money off of it... They'd sell it, too.

Stop taking background stories as being so immutable and important and go with it a little. You might have some fun.

Eric

usually I love to stick on the fluff... but who cares about it. Models are yours and if you like the idea of making something.... do IT.

Ignore the rest if the ones that you're playing with, accepts this type of army and like it, you are authorized to play.

Period.

MagickalMemories wrote:

It's one of those ideas that is trying too hard to be taken seriously and is trying to have a background justification for something that *would not happen, ever*.

Seriously?
Are you trying to use a reality based argument for a game of mandollies?
Dude.
Blood Angels will never exist IRL. That doesn't stop you from accepting THEIR fluff.
Heck, Grey Knights will never exist, but you're defending them tooth and nail.
What "wound not [or would] happen, ever" cannot be properly defended when referring to fictional characters.

In context of the game, you cannot say what will or will not *ever* happen. You do not know. Simply because GW has shoved some stories about "uncorruptable" Grey Knights at you, you're taking it as gospel. It's fiction, man. Fiction.

If GW thinks they'll make a ton of money from selling a novel about a GK Grandmaster that becomes possessed by a powerful Daemon of (insert God here), they'll sell it.

If they thought up the "Chaos Inquisition" and thought that they'd make money off of it... They'd sell it, too.

Stop taking background stories as being so immutable and important and go with it a little. You might have some fun.

Eric

So does this mean that I have an army of Chaos Emperors?

For the most part I am a fluff-nut, I don't mind most of what is suggested in terms of fluff. (For example one of my armies has a World Eaters captain who employs long range warfare and was an advocate of virus bombing which caught Horus' ear and is the reason why it was used at Isstvaan. This was not hugely accepted. "Wtf dis so dumb why does a Khorne dude use long rang?" and whatnot. So obviously I don't stick with the fluff, or at least the very old fluff.)

Personally, I seriously doubt that the Grey Knights would turn to Chaos and sure, it's a little because of fluff.

Look at the 13th company. They just have some weird thing that prevents them from getting mutations or whatever, and they're fighting in the Eye of Terror.

The Grey Knights are like this, except x3. That's more of my reason.

In the end I can't really prevent the OP from going around with his/her black knights if he/she wants to. So if it provides enjoyment, I guess, go ahead and use them!

So if it provides enjoyment, I guess, go ahead and use them!

Dude.
You nailed it.
That's my whole point.

BTW... I have no issues with your Khorne idea, either. : )
Khorne just wants skulls for the skull throne. He doesn't raelly care if they're hacked off with an axe, or the body is just disintegrated out from underneath them. LOL

Eric

Normally, I'm all for cool conversions and funky rule stuff. I use Chaos Marine rules for an Adeptus Mechanicus strike force, for example, explaining away a lot of the differences between a normal human and a Chaos Marine with drugs and cybernetic upgrades.

But, as with many others, I also try and stay within the fluff. From your description it sounds like you've put a fair bit of thought into it, and a corrupted Inquistorial Strike Force is more than possible. Even using the Grey Knight models is groovy, as any Grey Knights with such a fleet would probably have been killed and there armour could be taken. That's all fine. Even there rules can be used, as there are plenty of Chaos forces that hate Chaos just as much as the Imperium.

But I would avoid having them as fallen Grey Knights. There are relatively few hard and fast rules in 40k fluff, but Grey Knights falling is like Khorne welcoming a Psycher as his most trusted Daemon Prince. It's akin to saying, 'See this Inquistor? Killed Calgar and Grimnar. At the same time. Single handed. With one arm already ripped off by Bjorn, which he then headbutted to the floor.' It's like the dread Lady Marines. Some things just don't happen.

See before the latest chaos codex if you had talked about fallen space wolves (fallen as in chaos worship) you would of also started a flame war.

In fact on the Bnc I read a thread where people were complaining that space wolves had fallen in the fluff. 5000 years is plenty of time to break down a grey knight.

I repeat the Imperium is full of liars.

Shaman wrote:

I repeat the Imperium is full of liars.

Still a chaos feature...


When allowing to have 5000 years lived in "real space" and in "warp space" too, isn't the chance to subjugate a GK already lost?
I doubt we assume GK are immortal.
So you don't have 5000 years to change someones mind.

The warp is the warp. Anything is possible in there. I imagine its like living in a communal nightmare. With all the negative thoughts and emotions given form and time itself twist and turns. For example in the warp slaanesh has always existed yet was only created 10000 years or so ago. Time doesnt flow slower it flows chaotically.

Everyone knows chaos are liars. In truth the warp is like a water park of blood. Goats are 300 m tall and space marines believe in the emperor.

But Im not a chaos worshiper. I'm an Eversor with a love for crotch kicking.

1hadhq wrote:

Shaman wrote:

I repeat the Imperium is full of liars.

Still a chaos feature...

Said like a true Imperial lap dog.
; )

Using a fluff example...

Have you ever read the Commissar Kain novels?
Each one reads like a dataslate that is encrypted.

It's like that.
They hide information that would be "bad" for the common folk to know, then hide it all with lies and subterfuge.

Eric

Shaman wrote:

But Im not a chaos worshiper. I'm an Eversor with a love for crotch kicking.

I do not have avatars switched off, so expected that.

MagickalMemories wrote:


Said like a true Imperial lap dog.
; )

Using a fluff example...

Have you ever read the Commissar Kain novels?
Each one reads like a dataslate that is encrypted.

It's like that.
They hide information that would be "bad" for the common folk to know, then hide it all with lies and subterfuge.

Eric

No SW here...

Kain is fun.

But,

there is a difference.

The =I= and other organizations don't tell you the whole truth.
Still, every demon is a liar.
So its a small portion of a faction ( imperium ) hiding some facts vs a whole faction ( chaos ) inable to be honest.

Yes i know its a generalization and some "honesty" can be found somewhere.

Maybe we shall not forget how much WE do know of events in real life. Could be surprising to find out of which facts we were
"accidently" not told or somehow "info were incorrect".

Actually the titan sized daemon in the book daemon world doesnt lie at all.

It depends how you define a liar. You could call the Imperium a lie in itself, but the vast majority of the people who live in it just get on with their lives. They themselves don't believe that the Imperium is a lie, but that it is the best thing they can live for. Daemons are exactly the same. While what they believe may not be in accordance with the that is spouted by the preachers of the Imperium, what they are taught is what they believe. Look at the Communist system of the Soviet Union. While we in the Western world would have called that wrong, the people who were brought up there wouldn't believe that the system would be wrong. They would probably believe that the West was full of fat capitalists.

EX

I like the idea, and also think that a themed army around this would look terrific!

as for Grey knights 'turning' or whatever. Yes they have to defeat a deamon, but over that length of time in the warp surely they'll come across and be a target for stronger deamons - after all chaos wants to despoil the imperium - why not target somehting juicy? And who says that the crew slowly slipped into secret cults aboard ship somehow and one managed to open some sort of gate and let stuff into the ship. And who says ALL the knights turned? Coupld be a few that were possessed ad the others died trying to destroy them. As for 'why would they take orders from an iquisitor' - why not? He could be possesed by an even stronger entity - possibly first who kept it's real identity secret and started weaving schemes to allow others in to do whatever to the GK. And as the all the cries of he would be spotted! He could become a recluse, get ill and be put in isolation or even do a runner into the bowels of the ship. And as for all the cover up talk - heck I can see it happening, after all inquisitors hunt each other as often as the 'real baddies' - of course they'd try to cover up gk being possessed - think of the scandel. Either that or MIA and we know what the Imperiums like for record keeping.

I say the OP should go for it. I'd love to see a chaos themed GK army - it's something a bit different. And as for GW's own fluff - how many times do they backtrack themselevs? Who says in a couple of years they'll find this thread and think 'hey, we could make a few new models (spikey GK and spikey inquisitor retinue), supplement them with current chaos models and we've got a new army to sell without much more work. Lets just change a bit of fluff.'

If you're not happy about it, then simply don't play against him. At the end of the day it's a bit of added variety.

Sorry for Typos - I'm not ht ebest speller :(

You realise that even the presence of a nearby daemon causes the wards and psychic defences of a GK to go into overdrive right?

So it would be quite hard for one to hide aboard ship, especially if it was the leader of the force

Shaman wrote:See before the latest chaos codex if you had talked about fallen space wolves (fallen as in chaos worship) you would of also started a flame war.

In fact on the Bnc I read a thread where people were complaining that space wolves had fallen in the fluff. 5000 years is plenty of time to break down a grey knight.

I repeat the Imperium is full of liars.

I could be wrong, but I believe via the old fluff it was simply that the Space Wolves were highly resistant to mutation, going Wolfen rather than turning into something with tentaces popping out where the eyes used to be. It never says they can't fall to Chaos, only that they're less likely to mutate.

The Daemonhunters Codex, on the other hand, specifically states that they are the only Chapter never to have a member betray the Emperor. Since the Knights are so secret even regular Marines have no idea about them it's not propoganda. It's not as though we;re a bunch of Imperial citerzens watching the news about Xeno threats and the Ultramarine's latest victory, were reading the rules and fluff to the Imperiums most secret fighting force. And, honestly, I suspect if a Daemon ever did posses a Grey Knight, something only the most powerful and terrible could do, they'd turn there own weapons on themselves before it could take full control.

I still believe the best bet would be looted and corrupted suits of Aegis armour, taken either by the most potent Chaos Marine veterans or, as someone else suggested, modified to allow a Daemon to live and exist outside of the Warp. A corrupted suit of blessed armour would be pretty useful to them.

Sanctioned psykers are gifted with a psykana mercy blade during their training on Terra, and part of their sanctioning is embedding subconscious impulses so that if they have lost control and are about to suffer a massive perils of the warp (like turning into an unbound daemonhost or getting possessed by a greater daemon) they'll fall upon it or cut their own throat before anything can get too bad. The conditioning is mostly so it will kick in even if their conscious mind is fully occupied attempting to fight it off long enough to commit suicide; dying is considered a lot better than what will happen to their soul otherwise. Dark Heresy is fun like that (like having your own personal commissar following you).

Given their training I'd be astonished if Grey Knights don't have something similar. They can fight off a lot, but there would be some things no human is capable of resisting even with aid. I'm thinking old and massively powerful greater daemons here, particularly if they're getting a boost from their patron. Given that none have fallen, they probably do have a means of suicide. Maybe they can turn their psykic powers on themselves.

Looted armour would work well. Rubric marines give an idea how it could work.