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Altered_Soul wrote:He is 50% godsend and 50% wackjob. HIs prison policies are something to look up to, but his police work is horrifying.

Thing is, his self-advertised policies of feeding in-mates bologna and putting them in tents were in practice for decades in Arizona before. He did think of the pink underwear thing himself, though. Other than that, as you point out, he abuses his power constantly... but he gets voted in time after time, and is continuously hailed as a hero of tough prison systems. It seems the idea of being mean to prisoners is so appealing most people don't bother to look at what's really going on.


On rehab, people like to say that prison should be punishment. This is true, of course, but its often used as a counter to the idea that prison can rehabilitate, and in that context it's nonsense. Prison can be both a sucky environment and give skills to in-mates so they might have a decent life on the outside. Locking someone up, being mean to them for ten years then letting them out with no skills then being shocked when they return to crime was established as silly decades ago. The real answers to reducing crime are complex, but certainly involve prison as a safeguard, as punishment and as rehabilitation. All three are possible in one system.

sebster wrote:Locking someone up, being mean to them for ten years then letting them out with no skills then being shocked when they return to crime was established as silly decades ago. The real answers to reducing crime are complex, but certainly involve prison as a safeguard, as punishment and as rehabilitation. All three are possible in one system.

Or just don't let them out again.

I would think that doing moderately hard labor would make for better "rehabilitation" than just having them sit around bored and angry. Especially if the labor has some sort of visible goal that they can coming to fruition. Plus, it makes for a good punishment, as it targets the people you want punished the most. (If you steal because you hate work, now you must work. If you steal because you need food or something, it won't hit you as hard. I think much of the problem in our prison system is that the punishment is primarily a loss of freedom, while many material comforts remain; the more parasitic a person is the less they care that they have lost independence; the more violent a person is the less they care that they live in a greater amount of violence; etc.)

Also:
Daniel: What do you think happened?
Lieutenant Martini: One of the players Robbie plays with got carried away and killed him.
Daniel: That's kind of far out.
Lt. Martini: Mazes and Monsters is a far out game.

Can you be shanked by an ork mini?

Frazzled wrote:Can you be shanked by an ork mini?

Maybe if it's sharpened enough....


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In fact, I got a jolly good scratch off a HE spearman once so anything is possible.

I know goblin spearmen will do a number on you.


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What's worse is that some of them also have points on their helmets.

God forbid someone gets their hands on a Chaos Land Raider, though...

sebster wrote:

Altered_Soul wrote:He is 50% godsend and 50% wackjob. HIs prison policies are something to look up to, but his police work is horrifying.

Thing is, his self-advertised policies of feeding in-mates bologna and putting them in tents were in practice for decades in Arizona before. He did think of the pink underwear thing himself, though. Other than that, as you point out, he abuses his power constantly... but he gets voted in time after time, and is continuously hailed as a hero of tough prison systems. It seems the idea of being mean to prisoners is so appealing most people don't bother to look at what's really going on.


On rehab, people like to say that prison should be punishment. This is true, of course, but its often used as a counter to the idea that prison can rehabilitate, and in that context it's nonsense. Prison can be both a sucky environment and give skills to in-mates so they might have a decent life on the outside. Locking someone up, being mean to them for ten years then letting them out with no skills then being shocked when they return to crime was established as silly decades ago. The real answers to reducing crime are complex, but certainly involve prison as a safeguard, as punishment and as rehabilitation. All three are possible in one system.

He doesn't treat the incarcerated with some sort of abuse. He just doesn't give them what they don't deserve, and keeps the price down while making them do what every working stiff has to, make their own lunch. I hardly doubt that is mean. Many prisoners in the system come out and say they would never go back. Its harsh, but it sets them straight. Fear of prison is a large reason why most potential petty thieves won't do the deed. The scarier ones aren't getting out anytime soon.

Oh the things that happens in the US, you got to give it to the US justice system. Ban D&D... what are the prisoners gonna do? Conjure a daemon to brutally rape the guards and eat the local priest with side order of manslaughter? I mean seriously. Whats wrong with D&D? Giving the prisoners some time to actually have a less than shity day?

Altered_Soul wrote:
He is 0% godsend and 100% wackjob. HIs prison policies are nothing to look up to, but his police work is horrifying.

Fixed it for you.

People are dying in his facility. People are being effing killed by the staff of the prison. Some of the people who have died died before trial. They meaning some of the dead, were not even guilty in the eyes of the law.
He and his men if they can he termed such have destroyed records and cost that county far more then it has saved, and that's without a change to recidivism rates. The man deserves to be locked up in his prison.

I mean for petes sake 70% of his people are pretrial prisoners meaning many may never actually be found guilty, but they deserve that madman's hell.

Altered_Soul wrote:He doesn't treat the incarcerated with some sort of abuse. He just doesn't give them what they don't deserve, and keeps the price down while making them do what every working stiff has to, make their own lunch. I hardly doubt that is mean. Many prisoners in the system come out and say they would never go back. Its harsh, but it sets them straight. Fear of prison is a large reason why most potential petty thieves won't do the deed. The scarier ones aren't getting out anytime soon.

Yeah, this is what I meant when I said the idea of being mean to prisoners was so appealling that the truth doesn't matter. There has been no reduction in recidivism in Arizona, but that's no surprise as the severity of the punishment has been established time and again as having a minimal impact of crime rates at best, and generally no effect. What matters is conviction rates and economic opportunities, but a lot of people start with the assumption that harsh prisons must stop recidivism, and they never bother to check if that's actually true.

And that's before you start looking into Arpaio's abuses of power.

efarrer wrote:

Altered_Soul wrote:
He is 0% godsend and 100% wackjob. HIs prison policies are nothing to look up to, but his police work is horrifying.

Fixed it for you.

People are dying in his facility. People are being effing killed by the staff of the prison. Some of the people who have died died before trial. They meaning some of the dead, were not even guilty in the eyes of the law.
He and his men if they can he termed such have destroyed records and cost that county far more then it has saved, and that's without a change to recidivism rates. The man deserves to be locked up in his prison.

I mean for petes sake 70% of his people are pretrial prisoners meaning many may never actually be found guilty, but they deserve that madman's hell.

I hate arpio too but im gonna have to call you out on this can you cite a source, thats not just a bunch of drivel.

youbedead wrote:

I hate arpio too but im gonna have to call you out on this can you cite a source, thats not just a bunch of drivel.

My original was as well sourced as the post that I was responding to but here let's try these:
?Amnesty International (death of Scott Norberg)http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/AMR51/051/1997
Scott Norberg died of asphyxia in Madison Street Jail on 1 June 1996, after being tackled by 14 detention officers and placed in a restraint chair with a towel over his face. Although Norberg was reportedly uncooperative and engaged in bizarre behaviour, his behaviour and initial "passive resistance" does not appear to have warranted the extreme degree of force used, especially as he was already had his hands handcuffed behind his back and was lying on his stomach on the ground when dragged by officers from his cell. The autopsy report showed that he sustained numerous contusions and lacerations to his head, face, neck, and limbs, as well as burn marks indicating that he was stunned numerous times with a stun gun on different parts of his body. There appears to have been no attempt to have used alternative measures to extreme physical force, nor any examination of his mental condition despite his disturbed behaviour. The decision to place him in the restraint chair rather than, for example, isolating him if his behaviour disrupted other inmates, appears particularly questionable. The organization is concerned that he was placed in the restraint chair while already handcuffed behind his back, with his hands pulled upwards over the back of the chair rather than at the sides as indicated in the manufacturer’s design, a position which would place great stress on the thorax. His face was then pushed downwards into a position likely to have further restricted his breathing without the additional use of a towel.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2007-12-20/news/inhumanity-has-a-price/
McCollum and another cellmate reported the beating to detention officers, pleaded for medical help, and reminded deputies that McCollum was pregnant and had been hit in the stomach. McCollum also put in a medical request to the infirmary.

No doctor or nurse looked in upon the injured McCollum.

Two days later, McCollum sat in the courthouse, chained to a row of inmates, when she started to bleed. She bled for five hours, looking frighteningly like Stephen King's infamous Carrie. The inmates chained to McCollum to await their arraignments began to complain. Detention officers ignored the prisoners.

When she arrived at the E-Pod in Sheriff Arpaio's Estrella Jail, a bloodstained McCollum again told guards about her beating and her need for medical care. An officer put in a priority request for medical attention, but nobody came. Alarmed at McCollum's loss of blood, a guard finally ushered her to see a doctor.

Infirmary workers called an ambulance and rushed McCollum to Maricopa Medical Center. Doctors there found her baby with an ultrasound, but they couldn't find the baby's heartbeat. The baby was dead.

Doctors told the jail guards that McCollum must return to the hospital in two days — on August 26 — to see if the fetus would pass on its own.

Ten days later, the jail had yet to deliver McCollum to her hospital appointment. On September 5, while McCollum stood holding her tray in the food line, the bleeding started again.

Still, nothing was done.

Three weeks after the ignored doctor's appointment, McCollum was finally rushed to the county hospital for the second time. She had lost so much blood that doctors gave her a massive blood transfusion. Then they removed the dead fetus.

It's important to note that McCollum hadn't been convicted of a crime. Like inmates whose deaths are recounted later in this story, McCollum was awaiting trial — innocent under the law.


Want more, read the article. Yeah they've a bone to pick with him, but you can bet they'd be sued if a word of it was actionable.

Hear also what the Goldwater Institute sayeth:
It does not take a soft-on-crime liberal to have serious concerns about the
fi nancial costs of policies that result in successful legal claims and attendant
taxpayer costs. One possible cause of the excessive legal and insurance costs may
be that the county, not MCSO, picks up the tab for insurance premiums and
legal awards, so there is a separation between those responsible and those held
accountable.
At least three of the largest damage awards and settlements—in the apparent
Although Sheriff Arpaio
says that he wins the vast
majority of court claims that
are fi led against him, he has
lost a substantial number of
high-profi le cases, at great
taxpayer expense.
At least three of the largest damage awards and settlements—in the apparent
excessive-force deaths of Deborah Braillard, Charles Agster III, and Clint
Yarbrough—involved inmates who had not yet been brought to trial on their
charges.73 In 1999, a federal audit found that “unconstitutional conditions exist
at the Jails with respect to (1) the use of excessive force against inmates and (2)
deliberate indiff erence to inmates’ serious medical needs.” MCSO entered into
an agreement with the U.S. Department of Justice to change procedures and
conditions, but the Justice Department apparently has not inspected MCSO
jails.74

efarrer wrote:

Altered_Soul wrote:
He is 0% godsend and 100% wackjob. HIs prison policies are nothing to look up to, but his police work is horrifying.

Fixed it for you.

People are dying in his facility. People are being effing killed by the staff of the prison. Some of the people who have died died before trial. They meaning some of the dead, were not even guilty in the eyes of the law.
He and his men if they can he termed such have destroyed records and cost that county far more then it has saved, and that's without a change to recidivism rates. The man deserves to be locked up in his prison.

I mean for petes sake 70% of his people are pretrial prisoners meaning many may never actually be found guilty, but they deserve that madman's hell.

1. People die, you're assuming I believe you.
2. You say the above like its a bad thing.

efarrer wrote:

youbedead wrote:

I hate arpio too but im gonna have to call you out on this can you cite a source, thats not just a bunch of drivel.

My original was as well sourced as the post that I was responding to but here let's try these:
?Amnesty International (death of Scott Norberg)http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/AMR51/051/1997
Scott Norberg died of asphyxia in Madison Street Jail on 1 June 1996, after being tackled by 14 detention officers and placed in a restraint chair with a towel over his face. Although Norberg was reportedly uncooperative and engaged in bizarre behaviour, his behaviour and initial "passive resistance" does not appear to have warranted the extreme degree of force used, especially as he was already had his hands handcuffed behind his back and was lying on his stomach on the ground when dragged by officers from his cell. The autopsy report showed that he sustained numerous contusions and lacerations to his head, face, neck, and limbs, as well as burn marks indicating that he was stunned numerous times with a stun gun on different parts of his body. There appears to have been no attempt to have used alternative measures to extreme physical force, nor any examination of his mental condition despite his disturbed behaviour. The decision to place him in the restraint chair rather than, for example, isolating him if his behaviour disrupted other inmates, appears particularly questionable. The organization is concerned that he was placed in the restraint chair while already handcuffed behind his back, with his hands pulled upwards over the back of the chair rather than at the sides as indicated in the manufacturer’s design, a position which would place great stress on the thorax. His face was then pushed downwards into a position likely to have further restricted his breathing without the additional use of a towel.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2007-12-20/news/inhumanity-has-a-price/
McCollum and another cellmate reported the beating to detention officers, pleaded for medical help, and reminded deputies that McCollum was pregnant and had been hit in the stomach. McCollum also put in a medical request to the infirmary.

No doctor or nurse looked in upon the injured McCollum.

Two days later, McCollum sat in the courthouse, chained to a row of inmates, when she started to bleed. She bled for five hours, looking frighteningly like Stephen King's infamous Carrie. The inmates chained to McCollum to await their arraignments began to complain. Detention officers ignored the prisoners.

When she arrived at the E-Pod in Sheriff Arpaio's Estrella Jail, a bloodstained McCollum again told guards about her beating and her need for medical care. An officer put in a priority request for medical attention, but nobody came. Alarmed at McCollum's loss of blood, a guard finally ushered her to see a doctor.

Infirmary workers called an ambulance and rushed McCollum to Maricopa Medical Center. Doctors there found her baby with an ultrasound, but they couldn't find the baby's heartbeat. The baby was dead.

Doctors told the jail guards that McCollum must return to the hospital in two days — on August 26 — to see if the fetus would pass on its own.

Ten days later, the jail had yet to deliver McCollum to her hospital appointment. On September 5, while McCollum stood holding her tray in the food line, the bleeding started again.

Still, nothing was done.

Three weeks after the ignored doctor's appointment, McCollum was finally rushed to the county hospital for the second time. She had lost so much blood that doctors gave her a massive blood transfusion. Then they removed the dead fetus.

It's important to note that McCollum hadn't been convicted of a crime. Like inmates whose deaths are recounted later in this story, McCollum was awaiting trial — innocent under the law.


Want more, read the article. Yeah they've a bone to pick with him, but you can bet they'd be sued if a word of it was actionable.

Hear also what the Goldwater Institute sayeth:
It does not take a soft-on-crime liberal to have serious concerns about the
fi nancial costs of policies that result in successful legal claims and attendant
taxpayer costs. One possible cause of the excessive legal and insurance costs may
be that the county, not MCSO, picks up the tab for insurance premiums and
legal awards, so there is a separation between those responsible and those held
accountable.
At least three of the largest damage awards and settlements—in the apparent
Although Sheriff Arpaio
says that he wins the vast
majority of court claims that
are fi led against him, he has
lost a substantial number of
high-profi le cases, at great
taxpayer expense.
At least three of the largest damage awards and settlements—in the apparent
excessive-force deaths of Deborah Braillard, Charles Agster III, and Clint
Yarbrough—involved inmates who had not yet been brought to trial on their
charges.73 In 1999, a federal audit found that “unconstitutional conditions exist
at the Jails with respect to (1) the use of excessive force against inmates and (2)
deliberate indiff erence to inmates’ serious medical needs.” MCSO entered into
an agreement with the U.S. Department of Justice to change procedures and
conditions, but the Justice Department apparently has not inspected MCSO
jails.74

I wipe my ass with Amnesty International.

Frazzled wrote:
1. People die, you're assuming I believe you.
2. You say the above like its a bad thing.

1. Then look into it.
2. People being held in inhumane conditions who may never be sentenced to a day in jail because they are innocent. Yeah, that's a bad thing.

efarrer wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
1. People die, you're assuming I believe you.
2. You say the above like its a bad thing.

1. Then look into it.
2. People being held in inhumane conditions who may never be sentenced to a day in jail because they are innocent. Yeah, that's a bad thing.

Its not inhumane. Its Arizona.
Arizona just well...sucks.

efarrer wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
1. People die, you're assuming I believe you.
2. You say the above like its a bad thing.

1. Then look into it.
2. People being held in inhumane conditions who may never be sentenced to a day in jail because they are innocent. Yeah, that's a bad thing.
People dying because medication was with held. Yeah that's a bad thing.
Consistently losing law suits regarding the conditions inside the prison. Yeah, that's a bad thing.

Moral of the story, don't be criminal or an illegal alien in that part of Arizona.

Frazzled wrote:

I wipe my ass with Amnesty International.

I'm not the least bit surprised. That's why I included three sources including the Goldwater Ins. which is hard to call left leaning.




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Frazzled wrote:Moral of the story, don't be criminal or an illegal alien in that part of Arizona.

You don't have to be a criminal. You just have to be arrested. Two very different things.

efarrer wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

I wipe my ass with Amnesty International.

I'm not the least bit surprised. That's why I included three sources including the Goldwater Ins. which is hard to call left leaning.




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Frazzled wrote:Moral of the story, don't be criminal or an illegal alien in that part of Arizona.

You don't have to be a criminal. You just have to be arrested. Two very different things.

Contrary to popular myth, innocent people are rarely arrested.
Whats your interest and Amnesty International's? Its a pissant county in Arizona. Frankly anyone living there in the first place has to be wackjob insane. Its like living in the coldest parts of Canada. You're just a loon in the first place. People are dying left and right in Iran trying to be free, but you're interested in 40 square miles of desert in Loserville.

Frazzled wrote: You're just a loon in the first place.

Nice personal attack. Always good to see the mod in operation.

efarrer wrote:

Frazzled wrote: You're just a loon in the first place.

Nice personal attack. Always good to see the mod in operation.

Its not directed at you unless you a Canadian nut living in the wilds of fair Canadia, or are just looking to be insulted. You couldn't be because you'd be too cool to be arguing with me on the intranets. Even if you were you'd pretty much just be a northern version of my family.

Answer the question though. Why do you care? There are about 8,357,567 more important human rights violations going on, including in your own country. Fix your own issues before you come across the border and look down on Arizona. They have enough problems already without you pointing a finger and shouting "you're bad you're bad!" like they give a damn.

Frazzled wrote:

efarrer wrote:

Frazzled wrote: You're just a loon in the first place.

Answer the question though. Why do you care? There are about 8,357,567 more important human rights violations going on, including in your own country. Fix your own issues before you come across the border and look down on Arizona. They have enough problems already without you pointing a finger and shouting "you're bad you're bad!" like they give a damn.

I care because he's held as a good example by some groups in my country. So after hearing the praises regarding him, I looked into the story and was disgusted by what I saw. I care because I don't want his methodology (which again quoting the Goldwater Institute doesn't work) to spread here.

Uh what?
The amount someone can give a crap about various issues is not limited by anything. He cares because he cares, it's not looking down on Arizona, it's saying "Man, that sounds bad, I don't agree with that".
Your argument makes no sense, it's basically "Ah shut up and go away, would you?"

That story about the pregnant woman was pretty horrible. Even a criminal shouldn't lose their child because of something like that, I don't care what the crime was.

Frazzled wrote:

efarrer wrote:

Altered_Soul wrote:
He is 0% godsend and 100% wackjob. HIs prison policies are nothing to look up to, but his police work is horrifying.

Fixed it for you.

People are dying in his facility. People are being effing killed by the staff of the prison. Some of the people who have died died before trial. They meaning some of the dead, were not even guilty in the eyes of the law.
He and his men if they can he termed such have destroyed records and cost that county far more then it has saved, and that's without a change to recidivism rates. The man deserves to be locked up in his prison.

I mean for petes sake 70% of his people are pretrial prisoners meaning many may never actually be found guilty, but they deserve that madman's hell.

1. People die, you're assuming I believe you.
2. You say the above like its a bad thing.

Isn't 'innocent until proven guilty' an important part of the US legal system, or how about a persons right to a fair trial, or will you only defend the rights you like.

Its already there. To think your country is immune from "bad police" is a fallacy.

I don't think anyone has put forward that idea. I could go dig up some examples of corrupt police in Ireland if you really want, if it would soothe you.

Da Boss wrote:I don't think anyone has put forward that idea. I could go dig up some examples of corrupt police in Ireland if you really want, if it would soothe you.

No that wouldn't do at all. Appropriately attired Irish beer maidens would be much more appropriate I think.

Oo er, well, we're not a race that does well under the photographer's lens, will I put it that way?

Da Boss wrote:Uh what?
The amount someone can give a crap about various issues is not limited by anything. He cares because he cares, it's not looking down on Arizona, it's saying "Man, that sounds bad, I don't agree with that".
Your argument makes no sense, it's basically "Ah shut up and go away, would you?"

That story about the pregnant woman was pretty horrible. Even a criminal shouldn't lose their child because of something like that, I don't care what the crime was.

Sure it is. There are eocnomics for absolutely everything. Time spent taken on Arizona is time taken away from foaming about Iranian right s abuses, Saudi rights abuses, the horror of North Korea, religious/ethnic genocide in Sudan on and on and on.
But lets focus on the redneck sheriff, because we don't want thst sort of riff raff over here.

Funny I'm not seeing the thread discussing the hanging, and torture of dissidents in Iran going on right now.


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Da Boss wrote:Oo er, well, we're not a race that does well under the photographer's lens, will I put it that way?

Oh contraire mon fraire you're the land of bodacious redheads. Enough said.