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Yeah whatwhat i was being sarcastic, but id not expect you to get that because you remind me of my mother in law.

Yeah and I was making an askew comment on said sarcasm. But then you wouldn't take that very well considering I remind you of a woman who lives in constant disappointment.

For me, the problem with voting in the UK is that you are not only voting for a political party but also a person to run your local area (i.e. your MP). Now let's say you wanted to vote Conservative, but your Conservative candidate is a half wit toff (a not uncommon problem), would you really vote for him to manage local affairs just to see the political party you favour win the election?

For this reason, I've always voted by candidate not political party which has resulted in two Lib Dem votes so far, even though I don't particularly think they should run the country.

whatwhat wrote:But then you wouldn't take that very well considering I remind you of a woman who lives in constant disappointment.

You have to admit, that was sharp as a dagger juggling porcupine in a razorblade thong...

Flashman wrote:For me, the problem with voting in the UK is that you are not only voting for a political party but also a person to run your local area (i.e. your MP). Now let's say you wanted to vote Conservative, but your Conservative candidate is a half wit toff (a not uncommon problem), would you really vote for him to manage local affairs just to see the political party you favour win the election?

For this reason, I've always voted by candidate not political party which has resulted in two Lib Dem votes so far, even though I don't particularly think they should run the country.

What about local government?

I'm torn. While spoiling my ballot paper is usually my preferred method, I'm wondering if a hung parliament is the most desired result, and if so perhaps I should vote strategically.

Voting is completely pointless. It's all run by the Shadow men in the Background anyway. </Tinfoilhat>

Personally, I don't want to vote Labour. They had their chance and blew it, and there has been a lot of shady dealing over the years. F1 cars being an exception to smoking ads, cash for honours scandal, and lately MPs for hire.

However I don't know if the Conservatives are any better. I know they destroyed the railways and have been associated with sleaze before, so I'm helluva confused.

Better get reading manifestos methinks...

KillKrazy wrote:It's OK to run a deficit if the money is invested in useful infrastructure, education and research, that kind of thing. You can grow your ecnomy and reduce the deficit. But the UK has for decades been investing too much of its deficit in social welfare.

KK absolutely hits the nail on the head here. In addition, Labour's response to employment problems over the past few years appears to have been to create more and more Public Sector jobs. We can't have everyone working for the Gov't!
No-one is pretending that the Tories' plan to cut waste and bureaucracy will solve all of our problems - but it's a good place to start, and is something that needs to be addressed.

Creating public sector jobs is a version of the Keynesian idea of keeping money flowing through the economy which vitalizes it by the Multiplier effect.

In Keynes's original idea, the govt would pay men to bury jars full of £5 notes and pay other men to dig them up.

This was an allegory for the idea that the govt. can play a role in keeping people in work during a recession and thereby prevent the whole economy from entering a spiral of declining output. This plan seems to have worked in the current recession.

However it was never intended for a replacement for proper private sector jobs.

The sad truth is that for 30 years the UK private sector has failed to generate the number and value of jobs needed to keep the population employed.

Gwar! wrote:Voting is completely pointless. It's all run by the Shadow men in the Background anyway. </Tinfoilhat>

But aren't you Jewish???

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Voting is completely pointless. It's all run by the Shadow men in the Background anyway. </Tinfoilhat>

But aren't you Jewish???

Shhhhhhhhh! They are watching!!!!!

Kilkrazy wrote:

Flashman wrote:For me, the problem with voting in the UK is that you are not only voting for a political party but also a person to run your local area (i.e. your MP). Now let's say you wanted to vote Conservative, but your Conservative candidate is a half wit toff (a not uncommon problem), would you really vote for him to manage local affairs just to see the political party you favour win the election?

For this reason, I've always voted by candidate not political party which has resulted in two Lib Dem votes so far, even though I don't particularly think they should run the country.

What about local government?

Hah! I work for local government and have never seen a bigger waste of space than councillors. Planning is a good example.

1. Controversial planning application is made by developer.
2. It is line with planning policy, so planning officers advise approval.
3. Councillors fearful of losing their seat, ignore officer advice and turn down the application.
4. Developer goes to appeal and gets planning permission anyway.
5. Council pays developer's legal costs.
6. Councillors keep seat and now have to cut costs because of 5.
7. Planning officers lose their jobs.

I never vote in local elections.

I've learnt more about my own government in the last 45 mins reading this blog than I have ever in my 25 years on this planet. I don't know how all of you can have full/part-time jobs/careers and still have a collective tome of knowledge on par with 'Encylopedia Brittanica'. I feel...well....ignorant..for not REALLY giving a crap about my country's government aslong as roads didn't crumble (which they are)and I got my free 6 month holiday to bargain resorts such as Basrah,Al Amarah and Helmand province. I'm also not massively intelligent as I am more than happy to throw myself out of a perfectly serviceable aircraft.

What I'm trying to say is...thankyou...in a non kiss arse way

Bash

My own personal caveat to this debate - and it is a drum I have been banging lo these past few months, is that there seems to be an awful lot of people who are of the opinion that a hung parliament will be a 'good' thing for the UK. I cannot disagree with this more; coalition governments have always been weak and ineffectual in UK politics. This will not change at the next election and is a bad thing for a country just coming out of a serious recession. We need firm government, whether that is a Labour or Tory one.

Hmm the choices are corrupt sleezebags, corrupt sleezebags, or slightly less corrupt sleezebags who want to increase capital gains tax to a level where I'd be forced to go non-dom and live in Switzerland to continue making a living the way I do. Hung parliament will weaken the pound and not allow anyone to take action on the defecit. Choices choices.

I agree with Lego.

To quote everyone's favourite outlaw journalist (Spider Jerusalem) "It look's like the next election will simply be to decide the face of the guy who's fething us next".

I think the next government would be wise to hold a referendum on the way we vote in this country, specifically whether we should switch to a proportional representation system. Sadly, the politicians seem to be more interested in preserving their own status (see the recent expenses scandal and the all-round absolution they gave themselves) rather than making the country work properly and would dismiss the idea out of hand.

J.Black wrote:I agree with Lego.

To quote everyone's favourite outlaw journalist (Spider Jerusalem) "It look's like the next election will simply be to decide the face of the guy who's fething us next".

I think the next government would be wise to hold a referendum on the way we vote in this country, specifically whether we should switch to a proportional representation system. Sadly, the politicians seem to be more interested in preserving their own status (see the recent expenses scandal and the all-round absolution they gave themselves) rather than making the country work properly and would dismiss the idea out of hand.

Referendums? The UK Government hates them. They would rather let the Liberals in than allow a referendum!

Dont forget, you can see how bad your MP clashes with your views at :
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mps/

Exactly. The notion that we should actually have a say in what happens in our own fething country is anathema to them. This is why they've spent the last 20 years inbreeding their politics to make them all but indistinguishable: Then they wonder why people vote for extremist parties! Morons.

It truely doesn't matter who you vote for, the main 2 parties are both conservative (new Labour my arse) and the Lib dems will never get in.

I will be heading to the polling office to write words that rhyme with hunts all over my card as per usual.

"Good evening, London. Allow me first to apologize for this interruption. I do, like many of you, appreciate the comforts of every day routine- the security of the familiar, the tranquility of repetition......."

It's sad isn't it?

No-one here is being apathetic, and we all want to see some sort of change in how the country is run. However, it's all been taken out of our hands to the point where i feel like I'm living in a one party state :(

It's very sad my friend.

We need a new Cromwell, but this time slaughter the corrupt scum and start again.

Not all of them are corrupt, some of them are actually trying to do something positve, but the apathetic ones are as guilty as anyone.

J.Black wrote:
I think the next government would be wise to hold a referendum on the way we vote in this country, specifically whether we should switch to a proportional representation system.

Woah there- you've raised some good points, but IMO this would be a major mistake. Proportional representation was used by Germany's Weimar Republic in the late 20's and early 30's. It proved a beautiful idea, but wholly ineffectual in passing laws, as there was never a majority satisfied with a bill. This meant that Germany's economy, already suffering under the Treaty of Versaille, struggled even more (read: economic recession). This paved the way for the rise of Nazism, as they offered strong leadership, and an effective economic plan (thats where the autobahns come from). Their anti-semitism was overlooked by a grateful populace.

A warning from history- why I think that proportional representation would be a mistake.

CadianXV wrote:A warning from history- why I think that proportional representation would be a mistake.

Ireland has used PR for many, many years.

I don't see any Nazis here.

Fair point- those two words just set off alarm bells in my head.

The Liberal party in the UK has long been a champion of various forms of proportional representation, mainly because they would see an increase in the amount of Liberal seats (due to the way their support is split across constituencies, rather than concentrated majorities). Labour also incline towards PR, but to a much lesser degree. Only Conservatives really oppose PR, again, because the current first past the post system favours them more as they can win a large number of seats within Tory safe constituencies yet still not garner a majority of total votes cast.

Proportional representation is not bad, per se, but nearly always leads to coalition government. This isnt so bad when the political system has adapted to work within those constraints - see the Scottish and Welsh assemblies for examples - but in terms of UK politics, our system precludes the effectiveness of coalition; we have an adversarial system and have been the same for centuries. It would take a long period of adaptation and change for the current parties to get used to working together rather than in direct competition.

filbert wrote:The Liberal party in the UK has long been a champion of various forms of proportional representation, mainly because they would see an increase in the amount of Liberal seats (due to the way their support is split across constituencies, rather than concentrated majorities). Labour also incline towards PR, but to a much lesser degree. Only Conservatives really oppose PR, again, because the current first past the post system favours them more as they can win a large number of seats within Tory safe constituencies yet still not garner a majority of total votes cast.

Proportional representation is not bad, per se, but nearly always leads to coalition government. This isnt so bad when the political system has adapted to work within those constraints - see the Scottish and Welsh assemblies for examples - but in terms of UK politics, our system precludes the effectiveness of coalition; we have an adversarial system and have been the same for centuries. It would take a long period of adaptation and change for the current parties to get used to working together rather than in direct competition.

Good points.

I would much rather see some fundamental change in the way UK politics works rather than watch the country slowly fall into extremism (see massively increased voting for far right/left parties in recent years). Currently, out politicians do not work together to improve the country; they try to force their views to the top of the pile via. character assassination, sleaze allegations, name calling, really any method they can think of that makes them look good and the other party look bad. This is not helpful in the long run. The parties in opposition are supposed to criticize the Government based on factual reality; even when the current Government deals in lies and spin and would quite probably have fallen apart under the weight of it's own bs, the opposition still can't stop mud-slinging, massaging figures and acting like children in a fething playground.

PR is a way of showing them that they have to start being nice to each other otherwise absolutely nothing will ever be acheived. I agree that it'll take them a long time to adapt but i think that this slow change is far preferable to the rancid state of affairs that we have now.

@CadianXV: Don't worry There were a lot of other contributing factors going on in and around Germany at that point in history; a number of countries have been safely using PR for a good long while now! Heck, if the Irish can manage it, I'm sure we can give it a good go

Flashman wrote:Hah! I work for local government and have never seen a bigger waste of space than councillors. Planning is a good example.

1. Controversial planning application is made by developer.
2. It is line with planning policy, so planning officers advise approval.
3. Councillors fearful of losing their seat, ignore officer advice and turn down the application.
4. Developer goes to appeal and gets planning permission anyway.
5. Council pays developer's legal costs.
6. Councillors keep seat and now have to cut costs because of 5.
7. Planning officers lose their jobs.

I never vote in local elections.

local councilors are useless, therefore I don't vote in local elections. Makes sense. I suppose the fact local councils are able to get away with said seven points has nothing to do with the fact nobody takes their local council vote seriously?

filbert wrote:My own personal caveat to this debate - and it is a drum I have been banging lo these past few months, is that there seems to be an awful lot of people who are of the opinion that a hung parliament will be a 'good' thing for the UK. I cannot disagree with this more; coalition governments have always been weak and ineffectual in UK politics. This will not change at the next election and is a bad thing for a country just coming out of a serious recession. We need firm government, whether that is a Labour or Tory one.

Coalition governments got us through two world wars.

The problem with strong majority rule is they can as easily ram through bad bills as good ones.

One of our current problems is too many laws being passed too quickly to make effective legislation.

Plenty of other European countries manage with coalitions.