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Necrosis wrote:
Of course the WH codex work better then the PDF. The PDF was a nerf to sisters (BS 3 sisters, like that made any sense) and you can't compare a 2nd edition book since it used a completely different set of rules. Besides the WH dex did not work, look how many people you see playing that army? Not many people. It was a cheap way of GW updating the army and trying to promote the Inquisitor specialist game. This has result in GW opening Pandora box, where you have some people wanting to play Inquisition armies while you have lots of other people wanting to play sisters. The best result would be to make two separate codex's. I don't want to see sisters has a half done army again. For once I want to see them as a full fledged army.

I can't find the Codex: CA list or my copy of the book, so can't speak to that.

I disagree with the premise, however, that C: WH 'does not work' and that not many people play it. Just based on the response to any thread with 'Sisters' in the title over the last 2 weeks, you can see that quite a few people do play it. It was not a 'half-done army' it was more of an army than at any time in the history of sisters with more units, more abilities and more flavor.

I don't know where people get this idea that C:WH was an affront to sisters. The affront is no updates since then.

Seriously, go dig out your 3rd ed Space Marine and compare it to your C: WH. Codex WH was so much cooler. My Codex SM or Codex SW from back then? Meh.

I also don't see how adding an army (Inquisition) was 'Opening Pandora's Box'... Is there something bad about more choice? Everyone seems to think that Inquisition and Sisters is Zero Sum. "More inquisition equals less Sisters" History is contrary to this. Last time Inquisition was brought in, we got more Sisters instead of a Chapter Approved band aid. This is a good thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

andain841 wrote:I am not sure that the only reason you don't see many SOB armies is that the codex is weak, although that is certainly part of it. I think that all of the models being metal is a serious issue. I, for one, would love to play a SOB army but I refuse to buy an army of metal models for the reasons that someone listed above. The expense and limited amount of poses just kills the army for me. I think that a new codex, SOB or WH, is still going to have popularity issues because of the model range. I would argue that part of the reason that Tau and Necrons took off so well is that they both were released with a large range of plastic models. I think that to "fix" the SOB a new codex must be accompanied by at least one plastic set of sisters or it is going to fall flat on its face.

Agreed. At this point, it would be like releasing a new DE codex without new models. (Although sisters are even older.)

If you want a laugh at your army, go check the 2nd Edition Codex and look at what percent of your army looks just like that. Most armies? Nothing like the old models. Poor Sisters? 80% of my army is identical. Only changes are a couple new metal models and new vehicles. :(

1hadhq wrote:May I suggest to move any special "upgrade" characters to a command squad?

Manchu wrote:I've thought about this quite a bit but I think a Sisters HQ makes more sense as an IC that can be joined by Celestines than a Guard-style Command Squad. It's harder to imagine her blasting off with a Seraphim jetpack if she has to hold hands with Sisters Famulous and Dialogous while doing so.

I am not against flexibility in their command structure, but the Imperium has some typical builds and one of them are HQ's of
"officers" and "henchmen" carrying all the special gear ( vox, banner, medikit,...) and siters ARE one of the forces of the IoM IIRC...
So how to form a squad + HQ in your brand strengthening new SoB idea?
IMO, you can't get away without special characters like any other 5th ed codex.
SC "a" may take a different squad as backup than SC "b" then? Or forfeit the use of free units ( not taking up FOC slots) ?

Manchu wrote:
As I've said, OP isn't meant to be a final draft fandex. It's more of an illustration of how C:WH could be restructured into a much better W:SoB without losing all the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition stuff. My OP is actually supposed to be the beginning of a discussion and not the end of it.

looking forward to more.

May I suggest to think about psykers too? SoB are guarding black ships, ( in absence of SoS ), still with psykers becoming a common
sight in army lists there should be something dedicated to their role in dealing with "illegal" use of such powers.
Actually, your OP makes the Inq neccessary to counter this.

There is something bad about adding more choices. When you add more choices you might be limiting the options of the previous choices (like sisters). GW introduce a new army when they made C:WH and CH the inquisition. Think of the Mechanicus right now. They don't have an army thus we don't hear much or people complaining about them. Yet if we made an army about them, that would change. Basically if you were to have combined lets say the Guard and Mechanicus into one army, you would have a lot less guard options and I think some guard players wouldn't be happy. You would also have the Mechanicus saying they want their own codex instead of just being combined with guard.

Necrosis wrote:There is something bad about adding more choices. When you add more choices you might be limiting the options of the previous choices (like sisters). GW introduce a new army when they made C:WH and CH the inquisition. Think of the Mechanicus right now. They don't have an army thus we don't hear much or people complaining about them. Yet if we made an army about them, that would change. Basically if you were to have combined lets say the Guard and Mechanicus into one army, you would have a lot less guard options and I think some guard players wouldn't be happy. You would also have the Mechanicus saying they want their own codex instead of just being combined with guard.

This is all speculation.

I personally believe that C: WH saved Sisters from languishing as a PDF army for longer. More choices does not equal bad. Sure, some armies will be floated, fail and get squatted. That's how things happen. But the creation of new armies in itself is not a bad thing, it gives choice, new minis, new possibilities for play.

Again, go back and read my post. 40K codexes are NOT zero sum. Just because something is added, does not mean that something is taken away. Just because the Inquisition, or Tau or Daemons exist does not mean that we have to delete Sisters.

Sisters, Grey Knights and Inquisition can all exist. It's okay. All three existing does not mean there will be less ice cream to go around. There will be plenty. If some of them happen to exist in the same book, the world won't end. You won't necessarily receive less choice in sisters because an inquisitor is in your Codex. In 3rd edition, you got MORE sisters because of Inquisition. It could happen again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I posted this in another thread, so might as well here.


Before Inquisition and Codex WH, we had a WHOPPING 4 Units, 2 Transports, 2 Special Chars. Non Sisters stuff in our codex was 4 Non Sister Units, 3 Chars.

I don't have Codex Chapter Approved, but it was pretty similar. I think C: CA replaced Frateris with Zealots and gave us Retrib, Exos and Celestians. I'm hazy though. So that puts us at 7 units, 0 Special Chars in Codex: CA IIRC.


2nd Edition:
2 Sisters Special Chars
Rhino
Immo
Veteran Sister
Canoness
Seraphim Squad
Battle Sister Squad

3 Eccles SC
Preacher (Ecclessiarchy)
Missionary (Ecclessiarchy)
Confessor (Ecclessiarchy)
Frat Militia (Ecclessiarchy)

Codex WH We get 9 Units, 1 Special Char, 1 Transport (Immo is also a unit) and also get 9 Non Sister Units, 1 Special Char, 2 Transports. Big difference. Tell me that was a loss of choice or units.
Sisters Heroine
Celestians
Repentia
Rhino (Sisters, Ordo H)
Immo
Battle Sister Squad
Seraphim Squad
Dominion
Retributor
Exorcist
Celestine

Priests (Ecclessiarchy)
Penitent Engines (Ecclesiarchy)
Arco-Flagellants (Ecclessiarchy)

Inq Lord/Retinue (Ordo H)
Inquisitor/Retinue (Ordo H)
DCA (Ordo H)
Assassin (Ordo H)
Chimera (Ordo H)
Land Raider (Ordo H)
IST (Ordo H)
Orbital Strike (Ordo H)
Giant Chair Guy (Ordo H)

We seemed to have lost an Eccleissarchy unit. Plus we really didn't get any new sisters, it just the same sister copied and pasted and given a few different equipment options. I mean they didn't even release a new model for the Celestians, they just told use to use helmeted sisters. We techincally only got one new sisters and we had one less special character then before.

I want to see the sisters army as well develop as the blood angels. Just the sisters before throwing any Inquisition stuff. If your telling me you can make the sisters as well develop as the blood angels (or space wolves or any other 5 edition codex) and then throw in some Inquisition and make the Inquisition also a well develop army to in the same codex and make the codex not to expensive, well I just have a hard time believing that is possible.

Necrosis wrote:We seemed to have lost an Eccleissarchy unit. Plus we really didn't get any new sisters, it just the same sister copied and pasted and given a few different equipment options. I mean they didn't even release a new model for the Celestians, they just told use to use helmeted sisters. We techincally only got one new sisters and we had one less special character then before.

I want to see the sisters army as well develop as the blood angels. Just the sisters before throwing any Inquisition stuff. If your telling me you can make the sisters as well develop as the blood angels (or space wolves or any other 5 edition codex) and then throw in some Inquisition and make the Inquisition also a well develop army to in the same codex and make the codex not to expensive, well I just have a hard time believing that is possible.

The difference is that Sisters have NEVER been as complicated as any SM army. No list is. Compare any Xenos race codex to any SM codex. Tell me what the unit difference is. Now figure out why. Oh yeah, marines sell. Guard are the one exception to the rule of SM get more choice because they have tanks. It's that simple.

You are asking Sisters to go from 11 units to 43 units/chars in one update. I'm sorry. I love Sisters, but ain't gonna happen.

Blood Angels
6 Char, 3 HQ, 1 Retinue. 8 Elites, 5 Troops, 6 Transports, 9 FA, 3 HS. 2 non-BA Chars.

Edit:
Guard (Just slots, not diff Tank types)
12 Char, 5 HQ, 1 Retinue, 4 Elites, 6 Troops, 1 Transports, 6 FA, 5 HS

This is a little bit more realistic. 18 unit types with 12 characters? I could see that. But still a BIG jump.

Edit: Counting is Fun

SW
8 Char, 4 HQ, 6 Elites, 2 Troops, 3 Transports, 5 FA, 7 HS

Sisters are never going to be as "well developed" as any other army for one simple fact.

They are not an army that is developed for frontline combat, but rather a force that is designated for purging insurgent forces.

Can they act as frontline troops? Sure. So can Special Forces today--but you don't see it unless absolutely necessary, because of the fact that it's not their designated role.

I like the sisters fluff and models but I'm am i Inq player. Check my sig for points.
That has no sisters.

Now then, If sisters were plastics then my army would have had more points.
I like the Inq but I don't think a Codex:Inq with DH, Wh, sisters and GK will work without it being the size of the main rulebook (and price too)
So it'll either end up Codex:SOB and Ordo heritcus gets squatted as an army ( )
Or another codex like now. That is preferable to me. As many others proberly have large Inq portions it proberly preferable to them too.
All the Inq side of whatever the next SOB/WH codex is called needs is a few more Inq chioces and a few more sisters chioces to balance it out.
So at least like a choice in every section for Inq players (Min 1HQ, 1Elite, 1Troop etc..) And at least Two chioces in every section for sister players.
Sisters however need something more variety. I do like the OP's idea of adding a member of the non-combat orders into squads for benifits, but i doubt many will see this as all the variation needed.
I highly doubt a Codex:Ordo Hereticus alongside a codex:SOB so will not comment on one.

pretre wrote:

Necrosis wrote:We seemed to have lost an Eccleissarchy unit. Plus we really didn't get any new sisters, it just the same sister copied and pasted and given a few different equipment options. I mean they didn't even release a new model for the Celestians, they just told use to use helmeted sisters. We techincally only got one new sisters and we had one less special character then before.

I want to see the sisters army as well develop as the blood angels. Just the sisters before throwing any Inquisition stuff. If your telling me you can make the sisters as well develop as the blood angels (or space wolves or any other 5 edition codex) and then throw in some Inquisition and make the Inquisition also a well develop army to in the same codex and make the codex not to expensive, well I just have a hard time believing that is possible.

The difference is that Sisters have NEVER been as complicated as any SM army. No list is. Compare any Xenos race codex to any SM codex. Tell me what the unit difference is. Now figure out why. Oh yeah, marines sell. Guard are the one exception to the rule of SM get more choice because they have tanks. It's that simple.

You are asking Sisters to go from 11 units to 43 units/chars in one update. I'm sorry. I love Sisters, but ain't gonna happen.

Blood Angels
6 Char, 3 HQ, 1 Retinue. 8 Elites, 5 Troops, 6 Transports, 9 FA, 3 HS. 2 non-BA Chars.

That is a terrible argument. Also what about Tyranids. Besides what did the old BA PDF have? Not that much more then the sisters currently have.
Now if your telling me you want to treat one army because one sells better then the other, well that just silly.
If you want all your armies to sell, you need to give them a nice large codex, with lots of new plastic models. That's why sisters aren't as popular.
If you were to change that then they would start selling a lot better. You keep doing a half ass job and that army won't sell as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:Sisters are never going to be as "well developed" as any other army for one simple fact.

They are not an army that is developed for frontline combat, but rather a force that is designated for purging insurgent forces.

Can they act as frontline troops? Sure. So can Special Forces today--but you don't see it unless absolutely necessary, because of the fact that it's not their designated role.

Then why were they sent in to help stop the Black Crusade, then why were they sent to Armageddon. They are front line troops and if they are not, then change the fluff so they are.
If not then it's pointless to even include them at all.

Gee, it's almost like the biggest Chaos incursion in the Imperium's history since the Horus Heresy would include thousands of Cults springing up...

Kanluwen wrote:Gee, it's almost like the biggest Chaos incursion in the Imperium's history since the Horus Heresy would include thousands of Cults springing up...

Is then even an argument? Also the sisters were sent to the front lines. Sisters get sent to fight titans (Apoc 2). If that isn't front line that I don't know what is.

Necrosis wrote:
That is a terrible argument. Also what about Tyranids. Besides what did the old BA PDF have? Not that much more then the sisters currently have.
Now if your telling me you want to treat one army because one sells better then the other, well that just silly.
If you want all your armies to sell, you need to give them a nice large codex, with lots of new plastic models. That's why sisters aren't as popular.
If you were to change that then they would start selling a lot better. You keep doing a half ass job and that army won't sell as well.

It's not an argument. It is the truth. GW makes what sells.

Ready for the truth... Count the armies:

BA - 43
SW - 35
Guard - 30
Nids - 32
5 Char, 3 HQ, 1 Retinue, 6 Elites, 5 Troops, 1 Transports, 6 FA, 5 HS

Codex SM wait for it.... 46
11 Char, 5 HQ, 2 Retinue, 9 Elites, 2 Troops, 3 Transports, 7 FA, 8 HS


Marines get more stuff because they sell.

Edit: And to your earlier point about 4th Ed BA not having any units. Yeah, not so much.

4th Ed BA (PDF) - 28
4 Char, 3 HQ, 1 Retinue, 6 Elites, 2 Troops, 3 FA, 6 HS, 3 Transports -

Most of their 'new' units are LS variants and other new 5th ed stuff from C: SM.

Necrosis wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Gee, it's almost like the biggest Chaos incursion in the Imperium's history since the Horus Heresy would include thousands of Cults springing up...

Is then even an argument? Also the sisters were sent to the front lines. Sisters get sent to fight titans (Apoc 2). If that isn't front line that I don't know what is.

So what if they fought Titans?

The Cadian Interior Guard fought Titans, as did an Imperial Naval Ground Contingent.

Does that mean the Navy's Ground Contingent is designed to fight Titans on the frontline?

No. Situations arise due to the nature of a gigantic invasion of the hordes of Chaos.

pretre wrote:

Necrosis wrote:
That is a terrible argument. Also what about Tyranids. Besides what did the old BA PDF have? Not that much more then the sisters currently have.
Now if your telling me you want to treat one army because one sells better then the other, well that just silly.
If you want all your armies to sell, you need to give them a nice large codex, with lots of new plastic models. That's why sisters aren't as popular.
If you were to change that then they would start selling a lot better. You keep doing a half ass job and that army won't sell as well.

It's not an argument. It is the truth. GW makes what sells.

Ready for the truth... Count the armies:

BA - 43
SW - 35
Guard - 30
Nids - 32
5 Char, 3 HQ, 1 Retinue, 6 Elites, 5 Troops, 1 Transports, 6 FA, 5 HS

Codex SM wait for it.... 46
11 Char, 5 HQ, 2 Retinue, 9 Elites, 2 Troops, 3 Transports, 7 FA, 8 HS


Marines get more stuff because they sell.

Does that include all the tank variants for Guard?
I want to see sisters get 30 units. If you do that then go ahead and throw all the other inquisition stuff you want.
If you want an army to sell you need to give them lots of new toys. If you don't well the army won't sell as well.

You're not going to get 30 units. Really.

Sisters are not an army where you're going to see a massive difference in units.
Just like you wouldn't in a "Deathwatch" army or a Grey Knight army.

Kanluwen wrote:

Necrosis wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Gee, it's almost like the biggest Chaos incursion in the Imperium's history since the Horus Heresy would include thousands of Cults springing up...

Is then even an argument? Also the sisters were sent to the front lines. Sisters get sent to fight titans (Apoc 2). If that isn't front line that I don't know what is.

So what if they fought Titans?

The Cadian Interior Guard fought Titans, as did an Imperial Naval Ground Contingent.

Does that mean the Navy's Ground Contingent is designed to fight Titans on the frontline?

No. Situations arise due to the nature of a gigantic invasion of the hordes of Chaos.

Guess who leads war of faith? Sisters do. Now before you say they get guard support, sometimes they don't. It's only sometimes that guard decide to join them. During wars of faith they will go an liberate and conquer many planets in the name of the Emperor. Now if this doesn't make them front line troops then quite frankly I don't think anything can be front line troops either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:You're not going to get 30 units. Really.

Sisters are not an army where you're going to see a massive difference in units.
Just like you wouldn't in a "Deathwatch" army or a Grey Knight army.

Death Watch are deployed as a squad. Sisters are deployed in a group of 1000 like a space marine chapter.

Necrosis wrote:
Does that include all the tank variants for Guard?
I want to see sisters get 30 units. If you do that then go ahead and throw all the other inquisition stuff you want.
If you want an army to sell you need to give them lots of new toys. If you don't well the army won't sell as well.

I said it didn't as they are not separate units.

I want to see peace in our time, but it ain't going to happen. We have to be realistic.

You are asking for GW to make 20 new units/models for an army that is not a top seller. To make it clear, they have not done this with any other army ever that I am aware of.

I mean, I like sisters, but you are asking for the moon here.


Even new army launches did not have that many models. Think about how many units Tau have. You're asking for more NEW units than Tau units have.

Edit: Tau - 19
3 Char, 2 HQ, 1 Retinue, 2 Elites, 2 Troops, 4 FA, 4 HS, 1 Transports

Deathwatch are deployed as whatever the hell they're needed to be deployed as. They're organized as squads(y'know, like any army is). At any given time, there's enough Astartes operating within the Deathwatch from all of the Chapters that a Company, at least, could be fielded.

And "Wars of Faith" are not led by Sisters of Battle.

They are mostly joint-declarations by both the Munitorium and Ecclesiarchy. That means they generally will have Guard leading the way, while the Sisters are kept as bodyguard detachments for the Ecclesiarchy members who take to the field.

The exception to the rule is when the Ecclesiarchy decides to call what amounts to a minor skirmish for the Guard a "War of Faith".

GW said they went overboard with the Inquisition. They said the Inquisition will take a back seat and that they will focus on the militant arm. They have also denied a combined codex and say it won't happen. Which means were going to see a lot of new sister units when they get redone.

As for Tau, they do need an update and when they get an update I expect them to get tons of new units. GW has been adding tons of new stuff to 5 edition codex's.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:Deathwatch are deployed as whatever the hell they're needed to be deployed as. They're organized as squads(y'know, like any army is). At any given time, there's enough Astartes operating within the Deathwatch from all of the Chapters that a Company, at least, could be fielded.

And "Wars of Faith" are not led by Sisters of Battle.

They are mostly joint-declarations by both the Munitorium and Ecclesiarchy. That means they generally will have Guard leading the way, while the Sisters are kept as bodyguard detachments for the Ecclesiarchy members who take to the field.

The exception to the rule is when the Ecclesiarchy decides to call what amounts to a minor skirmish for the Guard a "War of Faith".

Give me a reference cause my codex say other wise.

Necrosis wrote:GW said they went overboard with the Inquisition. They said the Inquisition will take a back seat and that they will focus on the militant arm. They have also denied a combined codex and say it won't happen. Which means were going to see a lot of new sister units when they get redone.

As for Tau, they do need an update and when they get an update I expect them to get tons of new units. GW has been adding tons of new stuff to 5 edition codex's.

Adding new stuff and overboard with Inquisition does not equal tripling the size of the codex. No codex got that much growth in 5th.

Again, I would love it if they managed to stretch the fluff for sisters to make that work, but that is a COMPLETE reenvisioning of the army and a retcon as to what they do and have as part of their org.

Well your Codex is full of crap, because every other background source(from the "13th Black Crusade guidebook" published by Black Library to the "Sabbat Worlds Crusade" book published by the same) states that "Wars of Faith" require the full approval of all the branches of the Imperial bureaucracy to be declared.

Oh and by the by?

Deathwatch, just like Sisters, would never be deployed as frontline troops.

Just like Grey Knights aren't either.

Say it with me here sweetheart.
They are specialist troops, who are tailored to fighting one specific incarnation of the Imperium's foes. They are the defense against the corruption within.

Even Melissia's Fandex (which is way huge) only has 26 units in it (28 with unfinished stuff)

5 HQ, 1 Retinue, 3 Char, 3 Elites, 2 Troops, 5 FA, 4 Heavy, 3 Transports

And that has what I consider some pretty big leaps from the fluff/history.

pretre wrote:Even Melissia's Fandex (which is way huge) only has 26 units in it (28 with unfinished stuff)

5 HQ, 1 Retinue, 3 Char, 3 Elites, 2 Troops, 5 FA, 4 Heavy, 3 Transports

And that has what I consider some pretty big leaps from the fluff/history.

Now then, this pure guesswork but lemmem guess....no Inquisition at all?

Assumiing those new units are based on existing fluff, Gw will make new fluff for some new units as All fluff is changeable when the hell they want to.

Going just with the 26 units, add in an option in each FoC slot for Inq units that makes 31. About the right size with other codexs i think.

VikingScott wrote:

pretre wrote:Even Melissia's Fandex (which is way huge) only has 26 units in it (28 with unfinished stuff)

5 HQ, 1 Retinue, 3 Char, 3 Elites, 2 Troops, 5 FA, 4 Heavy, 3 Transports

And that has what I consider some pretty big leaps from the fluff/history.

Now then, this pure guesswork but lemmem guess....no Inquisition at all?

Assumiing those new units are based on existing fluff, Gw will make new fluff for some new units as All fluff is changeable when the hell they want to.

Going just with the 26 units, add in an option in each FoC slot for Inq units that makes 31. About the right size with other codexs i think.

No inquisition but lots of new stuff.

Chars - Celestine, Praxedes*, Atraea *
HQ- Heroine, Angelis Imperial (Battle Leader)*, Priestess of the Machine *+, High Priestess *, Priestess *
Retinue - Crusaders *
Elite - Celestians, Repentia, Vindictor*+
Troops - BS Squad, Novices*
FA - Conflagarator*, Cult of the Blazing Sun *+, Dominions, Seraphim, Sisters of the Nightflame*+
Heavy - Exorcist, Leman Russ Vengeance +*, Penitent Engines, Retributors
Transports - Immo, Rhino, Dropship*

In Development - Zealots*, Frateris*, Hierophant Tank*


* = New unit
+ = New to fluff or departure from canon

I'm not saying it can't be done, but that is 6 units that don't exist in fluff.

Models would need to be made for Vindictors (metal add to plastic BS kit), Conflagarator and LR Vengeance, Cult of the Blazing Sun (Sisters on Bikes), Nightflame, Dropship, etc. (or not based on recent events with Stormraven and Wolves)

So:
2 Vehicles
Plastic Sisters
3-8 Upgrade Kits
Tons of Metal for Chars.

Doable? Sure. Unlikely? Yes.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Much more realistically, I see them taking the C: WH List and adding about 2-4 units (with models) to sisters with a ton of special characters (based off old models, Praxedes, Uriah, etc) as well as fixing the glaring holes and updating the basic troop to plastic

Something Heavy, something mid range and something assaulty is my guess.

And including WH Inquisition with IST and Inducted Guard included directly in the codex.

That is what I think will actually happen, not wishlisting.

I know the OP is leaning towards A SoB dominant codex, but I want to ask something.

Who is to say that a combined Forces of the Imperium Codex would be bad in any way than our personal prejudices on the matter would make it seem so?
Maybe some of us are just afraid of change.


Lets look at the weaknesses/problems of the current Codices for WH & DH. People say that they are not common because of the cost of making a force out of pewter models. While this may be a factor I believe the real reason is that the armies are overly specialized. Other pewter heavy armies have sold well but each of these armies are a huge investment for an army that performs best against a limited nimber of armies.

The level of specialization has made both the WH & DH armies only about half of a full army when they are seperated and viewed individually. Yes, you can field effective Sisters or Grey Knight builds but they are limited in scope and flexibility.

Next, If GW makes either the Sisters or the Grey Knights a stand alone army, then they are pretty much forced to do the same with the other. This would be a massive undertaking as they would have to do both armies at the same time and would have to do simultaneous releases because of the Allies rules. I don't see GW investing that much in resources into two armies when they can get a better profit ratio on combining them.

As to what a combined Codex would be like? Pretty much like the rest of 5th ed codices, a rework of the fluff, slight loss of individual flavor in exchage for a more comprehensive army.

I think it possible for a combined Codex to keep all current Grey Knight and Adeptus Soritus units while incoporating greatly improved Stormtroopers and Ecclesiarchy units. Each can keep their individual back story but are veiwed as foces that do not fit into the SM or IG positions as being always on the frontlines. Because their primary purpose is not as front-line combatants they fall into this third catch all description.

Any new units in a Combined codex will probably be some sort of Faithfull mob unit and increased vehicle options. The existing units will keep most of their special rules so that you will/can build your army one way or the other and the Inquisitors will be amplified in equipment(power armour standard), stats(Faithful endurance gives them T 4-5), and increased command abilities to provide a third combined force option.


I'm posting this because I'm not a big fan of casually dismising an idea untill I see how it might theoretically work. Sorry if this has been a bit of a de-rail.

focusedfire wrote:I know the OP is leaning towards A SoB dominant codex, but I want to ask something.

Who is to say that a combined Forces of the Imperium Codex would be bad in any way than our personal prejudices on the matter would make it seem so?
Maybe some of us are just afraid of change.


Lets look at the weaknesses/problems of the current Codices for WH & DH. People say that they are not common because of the cost of making a force out of pewter models. While this may be a factor I believe the real reason is that the armies are overly specialized. Other pewter heavy armies have sold well but each of these armies are a huge investment for an army that performs best against a limited nimber of armies.

The level of specialization has made both the WH & DH armies only about half of a full army when they are seperated and viewed individually. Yes, you can field effective Sisters or Grey Knight builds but they are limited in scope and flexibility.

Next, If GW makes either the Sisters or the Grey Knights a stand alone army, then they are pretty much forced to do the same with the other. This would be a massive undertaking as they would have to do both armies at the same time and would have to do simultaneous releases because of the Allies rules. I don't see GW investing that much in resources into two armies when they can get a better profit ratio on combining them.

As to what a combined Codex would be like? Pretty much like the rest of 5th ed codices, a rework of the fluff, slight loss of individual flavor in exchage for a more comprehensive army.

I think it possible for a combined Codex to keep all current Grey Knight and Adeptus Soritus units while incoporating greatly improved Stormtroopers and Ecclesiarchy units. Each can keep their individual back story but are veiwed as foces that do not fit into the SM or IG positions as being always on the frontlines. Because their primary purpose is not as front-line combatants they fall into this third catch all description.

Any new units in a Combined codex will probably be some sort of Faithfull mob unit and increased vehicle options. The existing units will keep most of their special rules so that you will/can build your army one way or the other and the Inquisitors will be amplified in equipment(power armour standard), stats(Faithful endurance gives them T 4-5), and increased command abilities to provide a third combined force option.


I'm posting this because I'm not a big fan of casually dismising an idea untill I see how it might theoretically work. Sorry if this has been a bit of a de-rail.

As much as I want a Sisters/Ecclesiarchy force, I think a massive (double size) combined codex with options for GH, Sisters, Inquisitors, Assassins, Inducted Troops and Eccelesiarchy could be cool. Give options without having to have 20 books. I think the combined 'Imperium' codex is about as unlikely as full Sisters and GH only codexes, but oh well.

To quote myself from this thread.

VikingScott wrote:
I like the Inq but I don't think a Codex:Inq with DH, Wh, sisters and GK will work without it being the size of the main rulebook (and price too)

VikingScott wrote:To quote myself from this thread.

VikingScott wrote:
I like the Inq but I don't think a Codex:Inq with DH, Wh, sisters and GK will work without it being the size of the main rulebook (and price too)

Truth. lol

Don't know how I missed that earlier.

pretre wrote:

VikingScott wrote:To quote myself from this thread.

VikingScott wrote:
I like the Inq but I don't think a Codex:Inq with DH, Wh, sisters and GK will work without it being the size of the main rulebook (and price too)

Truth. lol

Don't know how I missed that earlier.

I disagree with this as to the end size and to it being a deterent towards a combined release. You take out the oversized painting section fillers and the akward combined forces rules you wold end up with less than 50 pages of units, rules, and equipement. Take those 50 pages in the new format(Remeber that a lot of the equipment will be redundant) and put in new units, fluff, and a 5th edition paint section and you'll end up with around a 100 page Codex.

Sm's codex is 144 pages

IG codex is 104

Admitadly I was exaggerating but i didn't think about removing painting sections.