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focusedfire wrote:The act is used by a Faithful sister to protect her charges.

Also, She would still have to follow the rules for passing the test.

If you don't like this then put her at a negative on her test or just ignore this one point if is such an issue.

Which aren't sisters. Sisters have little contact with the outside world unless they are at war. They rely on their fellow sisters, its rare to see sisters to lead a squad of anything else but other sisters.

kartofelkopf wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Well then that tells you something about the army's concept, and why it probably hasn't been that big of a draw to begin with.

All metal minis and no support in supplemental materials (WD, Battle Missions, etc...) might also be contributing factors...

This crap again?
Not every army goes into White Dwarf. Battle Missions, Apocalypse, Cities of Death all had Sisters getting new stuff under the "Imperial Forces" heading. Their stuff was shared amongst themselves, Grey Knights, Inquisition, the Imperial Guard, and Space Marines of all flavors.

Which works just fine, unless you want to cry about that somehow being a slight against your "army".

kartofelkopf wrote:

Valkyries are by no means new(and it's debatable that the Vendetta is

Because the vast majority of players are familiar with IA units... Please.

Sorry, but they didn't just showcase it in IA. The month it was released it ran in White Dwarf, and then kept showing up due to them showing off Owen Ree's Mordant Sky Rats--not to mention also showing up quite a bit when the updated Chaos Marines Codex, Tyranids, and Orks were released as objective markers. It also showed up in Black Gobbo quite a bit, and was the model that was on the official GW site as the one that was used to show how to work with resin.

If you didn't know what the Valkyrie--or at least never have seen it--was from any of that, you were willingly blinding yourself.

kartofelkopf wrote:

As for choice? Guard lost a ton of choice. I can no longer field my all Stormtrooper army because of it. I can no longer have Heavy Weapons Platoons in lieu of tanks either.

Vet squads can take carapace armor, and cost less (and are more effective!) than the all ST army from 3rd. And being able to attach HWS to Infantry Platoons allows you to take MORE HWS than the old platoon system did. You're flat wrong on that point-- the new IG codex is vastly more flexible and provides a ton more options than the previous one did.

Bull. I lost the main thing that made my force truly mine:
The fact that I fielded up to 6 Stormtrooper units, each of which had a Hellgun and Carapace.
Add to that:
The fact that I could field a platoon of Heavy Weapons Squads(with carapace armor no less) alongside of heavily armored and armed, incredibly well trained soldiers is what drew me into doing Guard to begin with. Hell, even my infantry platoons could have carapace armor--and it was a blast to play with.

Now? Now I get a crappy Orders system, Stormtroopers that are such a joke they're not ever going to be worth taking, Voxcasters that do diddly, and lots of tanks.

Oh bloody joy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necrosis wrote:

focusedfire wrote:How does it go against Fluff?

The other acts were merely brought up to the 5th ed standard and were hardly changed but rather given their proper USR names.

The only thing that got changed was spirit. I adapted it because it wastes a faith point on units that would probably be equipped with sheilds or would produce a protective arua generated by their sheer holiness.

Shifting the ability to being a passive "always on" does nothing to your fluff.

Now expecting the sister to step up and martyr herself for a bunch of filthy human trash,I can see why you would resist martyring your self for such

Making acts of faith being used by non sisters goes against the fluff.
There are suppose to be small miracles that rarely happen and turn the tide of war. Not just some kind of normal special rule that makes you a bit better.

Um, miracles aren't just going to happen for the Sisters bud.
Miracles can happen for and to anyone. Anyone, also, can be a zealot or suddenly be interpreted as "having the eye of the Emperor upon them".

Necrosis wrote:
Which aren't sisters. Sisters have little contact with the outside world unless they are at war. They rely on their fellow sisters, its rare to see sisters to lead a squad of anything else but other sisters.

Oh, this game is set in peace time, I'm sorry for the mix up.

You can't have it both ways. Are the Sister pervasive throught the galaxy and everywhere the ecclesiarchy happens to be? Or, Are they convent shut ins, that whom sightings of are rarer than seeing an effective FW bezerker? Which is it?

We are talking about sisters spread through out the galaxy fighting a broad range of capable enemies, they are going to be leading other units.

focusedfire wrote:
Oh, this game is set in peace time, I'm sorry for the mix up.

You can't have it both ways. Are the Sister pervasive throught the galaxy and everywhere the ecclesiarchy happens to be? Or, Are they convent shut ins, that whom sightings of are rarer than seeing an effective FW bezerker? Which is it?

We are talking about sisters spread through out the galaxy fighting a broad range of capable enemies, they are going to be leading other units.

When not in the battle field sisters will have little contact with the outside world, even with other orders.
Do you even have any sources to support your points?

Sources to support the brainstorming ideas for a theoretical codex that has yet to be written?

Yeah, let me just pull them right out of the warp, here ya go.:b

C'mon get serious. There are no sources for a book yet to be written.

What we do have, is a new fluff blurb in the BRB and an old one in an outdated codex. If we go with the old one then the sisters are pervasive to the point that sightings would be regular and common place.

You might argue that they only come out during times of war. Well this is grimdark 40K where there is only war.

If you argue the new fluff blurb then you accepted the broader use that is mentioned in the paragragh. So again the point leans toward my side of the debate.

focusedfire wrote:Sources to support the brainstorming ideas for a theoretical codex that has yet to be written?

Yeah, let me just pull them right out of the warp, here ya go.:b

C'mon get serious. There are no sources for a book yet to be written.

What we do have, is a new fluff blurb in the BRB and an old one in an outdated codex. If we go with the old one then the sisters are pervasive to the point that sightings would be regular and common place.

You might argue that they only come out during times of war. Well this is grimdark 40K where there is only war.

If you argue the new fluff blurb then you accepted the broader use that is mentioned in the paragragh. So again the point leans toward my side of the debate.

It's in the current codex.
Your making changes that are going to piss off every single sister player.
Your making changes that goes radically against the fluff.
All you have done is nerf them. You've reduce their invu save and have made the Canoness lose what made her excellent in close combat.

Kanluwen wrote:
This crap again?
Not every army goes into White Dwarf. Battle Missions, Apocalypse, Cities of Death all had Sisters getting new stuff under the "Imperial Forces" heading. Their stuff was shared amongst themselves, Grey Knights, Inquisition, the Imperial Guard, and Space Marines of all flavors.

Except there isn't even that in Battle Missions (if you're going to be rude and condescending, at least get your facts straight). But, more to the point, why should a whole army get lumped in together with others in any supplement? Also, I note you don't even touch the metal minis bit...

Sorry, but words

So... they showed the model a couple of times in WD and Black Gobbo (do they even do that any more?)... BFD. How many times did you ever see one fielded? I can count on no hands the number of times I saw one outside of IA.

Bull. I lost the main thing that made my force truly mine:
The fact that I fielded up to 6 Stormtrooper units, each of which had a Hellgun and Carapace.
Add to that:
The fact that I could field a platoon of Heavy Weapons Squads(with carapace armor no less) alongside of heavily armored and armed, incredibly well trained soldiers is what drew me into doing Guard to begin with. Hell, even my infantry platoons could have carapace armor--and it was a blast to play with.

Now? Now I get a crappy Orders system, Stormtroopers that are such a joke they're not ever going to be worth taking, Voxcasters that do diddly, and lots of tanks.

Oh bloody joy.

cry about that somehow being a slight against your "army".

Hmm... methinks the lady doth protest too much.

Fact is, you can field something very similar now, and the IG codex is INFINITELY better than it was in the previous incarnation. It's competitive, flexible, and allows for multiple types of builds. I think you might be the one QQ'ing over a perceived slight to your unique snowflake army.

You know what, lets just agree to disagree. This really isn't getting us anywhere. I also think the two of us arguing isn't going to accomplish anything.

1)It is in the curent BRB
2)You are not every Sister player. The others have been online watching and the thread has yet to burn down around my ears.
3)You have yet to site where this goes against fluff. It is a modification to the game mechanics but is in no way coceptually different than what is currently in place.
4)Prove that they have been nerfed


Edit to answer above post:


Agreed, been fun debating with you.

Well I've spent all day debating. It kind of get boring after a while. Moving on, what else can we do.

kartofelkopf wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
This crap again?
Not every army goes into White Dwarf. Battle Missions, Apocalypse, Cities of Death all had Sisters getting new stuff under the "Imperial Forces" heading. Their stuff was shared amongst themselves, Grey Knights, Inquisition, the Imperial Guard, and Space Marines of all flavors.

Except there isn't even that in Battle Missions (if you're going to be rude and condescending, at least get your facts straight). But, more to the point, why should a whole army get lumped in together with others in any supplement? Also, I note you don't even touch the metal minis bit...

Sweetheart, I'm going to let you in on a secret.

Sisters of Battle have absolutely never had anything that would be unique enough to field in this regard. Just like Grey Knights or Deathwatch or the Inquisition.
They don't have mass landers that drop entire regiments of Imperial Guard tanks into enemy territory.
They don't run Drop Pod Assaults, or massed teleport strikes of Terminator forces.

Sorry, but words

So... they showed the model a couple of times in WD and Black Gobbo (do they even do that any more?)... BFD. How many times did you ever see one fielded? I can count on no hands the number of times I saw one outside of IA.

Quite a bit, actually. Seeing as how the guy who owned the FLGS ran a Cadian Drop Force and had everybody who could be mounted in them. And "every other month for almost a year" != "a couple of times".

Bull. I lost the main thing that made my force truly mine:
The fact that I fielded up to 6 Stormtrooper units, each of which had a Hellgun and Carapace.
Add to that:
The fact that I could field a platoon of Heavy Weapons Squads(with carapace armor no less) alongside of heavily armored and armed, incredibly well trained soldiers is what drew me into doing Guard to begin with. Hell, even my infantry platoons could have carapace armor--and it was a blast to play with.

Now? Now I get a crappy Orders system, Stormtroopers that are such a joke they're not ever going to be worth taking, Voxcasters that do diddly, and lots of tanks.

Oh bloody joy.

cry about that somehow being a slight against your "army".

Hmm... methinks the lady doth protest too much.

Fact is, you can field something very similar now, and the IG codex is INFINITELY better than it was in the previous incarnation. It's competitive, flexible, and allows for multiple types of builds. I think you might be the one QQ'ing over a perceived slight to your unique snowflake army.

Actually, I can't build anything remotely similar and the fact that you keep insisting I can is like if I were to say that you can field a Squat army.

Can I field Grenadiers? Sure. But they don't have Hellguns or even the option to upgrade their Lasguns to them with the Grenadier perk, which is idiotic.
Voxcasters? Yeah. Guess what sweetheart, they ain't worth taking either.
And as for my Heavy Weapons Platoons?
Sure, I can field the same amount of Heavy Weapons Squads. But I can't give them Carapace Armor. I can't give them diddly other than Krak Grenades. Ohhhh boy!

Some parts of the new Guard Codex are great. But they really weren't worth what was lost, at least in my opinion.

So basically...

cry about that somehow being a slight against your "army".

As for the other nonsense, it's idiotic to think that in the ENTIRE Ordo Hereticus/Ordo Malleus there's no kind of special missions that would reflect the flavor of those armies? (in re: Battle Missions)

Sure...

And drop the sweetheart-- this isn't that kind of bar.

kartofelkopf wrote:So basically...

cry about that somehow being a slight against your "army".

As for the other nonsense, it's idiotic to think that in the ENTIRE Ordo Hereticus/Ordo Malleus there's no kind of special missions that would reflect the flavor of those armies? (in re: Battle Missions)

Sure...

And drop the sweetheart-- this isn't that kind of bar.

I agree

The First mission could be a war of faith.

The 2nd mission can be defending a holy shrine

The thrid mission can be some kind of purging mission.

A fourth mission can be a last stand.

Hell, a revamp of the mission in the codex itself even.

And the Grey Knights similarly lend themselves to that treatment. Closing the rift, gathering relics, etc.

The whole point of that original post was that pointing to poor sales as a sign that an army is unpopular is just looking at a symptom. The actual cause is much more to do with exposure, start-up costs, and army identity.

kartofelkopf wrote:Hell, a revamp of the mission in the codex itself even.

And the Grey Knights similarly lend themselves to that treatment. Closing the rift, gathering relics, etc.

The whole point of that original post was that pointing to poor sales as a sign that an army is unpopular is just looking at a symptom. The actual cause is much more to do with exposure, start-up costs, and army identity.

That is one of the problems, another problem is the fact that they are all metal.
Plus when I buy a box set of sisters I have to also buy a heavy flamer to. Meaning I have to spend over 60 dollars just for a single troop choice.

I would be very, very interested in seeing units that are absolutely nothing like anything currently available to Imperial forces. As I've said before, I've always considered the armies main brand weakness to be that while the core idea of righteous space nuns is totally awesome, designing a force made up of leftover bits and pieces of the guard and space marine armies turned the idea into something dull and unoriginal.

I would love to see the entire concept completely re-imagined. The core would obviously be power armored Sisters with bolters, but there are so many places that the army could go from there:

- New basic vehicles that don't rely on a pre-existing chassis. Wouldn't a Redeemer that wasn't just a built up rhino be awesome?

- New types of units that push the army in a different direction than the other imperial forces. Tau and Necrons (the Sisters younger brothers) brought battlesuits and monoliths to the 40k battlefield. The Sisters brought... more rhinos.

- New ways to play. New tactics. New deployment options. New squad options. Anything that differentiates the Sisters from other
Imperial forces. Someone mentioned fighting in ranks. Wow. What a neat idea. Totally unlike anything else currently in the game. I can see some problems with the idea, but nothing that couldn't be overcome with some good writing.

- A wider range of models that could lend itself to a wider variety of units. We have 5 flavors of basically the same Sisters unit because we have such a limited number of models. There's no reason that a Sisters army should follow the Space Marine model of Veteran, Tactical, Assault, Devastator. It's boring, and makes the army feel very much like a variation of marines. Yes, we need units to fill these roles, but there's no reason they should have to fill the roles in the same, or even a similar way, as a marine or guard unit. GW has a huge opportunity to turn the Sisters into the true third part of the Imperial axis, a force that looks, feels and plays differently from Marines and Guard, has a real identity of it's own, has mass appeal and an attractive range of models.

That's what I'd like to see.

What sorts of new units could we get? I'm totally on board with needing to separate the army from just being weaker Marines with a few cool abilities. The one "abnormal" sister unit we go is the Repentia and I don't think we need more S&M imagery in the army. I personally like the freakshow aspects of the army but would love to see more diverse sier units as well. Just wondering what other people think would fit well but also be likely for GW to introduce.

And I personally DISLIKE freakshow armies, myself. I like the Sisters for being a professional (if religiously bent, which is acceptable), truly elite human army.

Marines aren't human, and therefor aren't as interesting to me.

Ixquic wrote:What sorts of new units could we get? I'm totally on board with needing to separate the army from just being weaker Marines with a few cool abilities. The one "abnormal" sister unit we go is the Repentia and I don't think we need more S&M imagery in the army. I personally like the freakshow aspects of the army but would love to see more diverse sier units as well. Just wondering what other people think would fit well but also be likely for GW to introduce.

Well, I had a few ideas that I posted over at Warseer awhile back. I'm sure they'll be poorly received, but...

I was just thinking that some kind of shrine would be really cool. A slow moving vehicle that doesn't have any offensive capabilities, but grants bonuses to units around it. Something that's vulnerable enough that it needs to be defended, but powerful enough that it's totally worth it. That would be pretty different.

What about horses?

I know that this is a little out of nowhere and may seem weird at first, but imagine a squad of power armored Sisters charging into battle on shinning white horses, armed for close combat. It certainly fits with the pseudo-Joan of Arc/saint imagery that has been prevalent in the last two books.

So, a fast cavalry unit armed for assault, with rending weapons and pistols. Maybe a standard bearer? Something that feels a little more Warhammer fantasy?

So yeah... horses (which may or may not be a stupid idea). Sure, a horse is going to have trouble carrying power armor. How about lightly armored sisters on horseback? Repentia cavalry?

No, but... flying horses with wings, maybe? it's cheesy as all hell, but if done right could be totally awesome. I'm thinking less 4th grade girls fantasy and more badass Joan of Arc/Valkyrie. Cavalry/jump troops? Does that even exist?

Celestial Choir. Seriously. A squad of sisters (possibly lightly armed and armored) that generate a Doom-like psychic blast attack based on the number of wounds the unit still has. It could totally be a "Faith" attack that just happens during the psychic phase, since sister don't truck with psychers. Either a high STR weapon that does a number of hits based off the number of sisters in the chorus, or a large blast weapon that has a STR equal to the number of sisters in the chorus.

units of sisters that act as dog handlers would be really cool!

I'd love to see more female Ecclesiarchy units. One of the reasons I don't overly care for the Ecclesiarchy in my Sisters army is that the break the Sisters "all female" theme. I'd never use militia because I don't want to field a bunch of dopey looking guys.

I actually think that horses would a cool idea. If Space Marines can ride wolves, I don't see why Sisters couldn't have a more conventional cavalry unit. Only problem they run into is that they have low strength so don't make great CC units but I'm sure they could work around that with power weapons and not just turn them into a rough rider knockoff.

The choir sounds like a good idea too. A unit that buffs others with prayers but has little to no actual offensive output would fit pretty well.

Ixquic wrote:I actually think that horses would a cool idea. If Space Marines can ride wolves, I don't see why Sisters couldn't have a more conventional cavalry unit. Only problem they run into is that they have low strength so don't make great CC units but I'm sure they could work around that with power weapons and not just turn them into a rough rider knockoff.

The choir sounds like a good idea too. A unit that buffs others with prayers but has little to no actual offensive output would fit pretty well.

Especially if the horses are ceremonial, or otherwise symbolic. Horses don't make a huge amount of practical sense as front line units for the kind of professional military force the Sisters are, but they make a lot of sense as an inspirational and symbolic unit. I can see mounted formations of sisters on gleaming white horses guiding imperial dignitaries and important pilgrims through cities, acting as honor guard for living saints off the battle field or participating in parades. A great unit for rallying around or generating Faith.

Of course, with robot/servitor horses they could be both ceremonially symbolic and combat effective.

I don't like the idea of non-daemonic cavalry in 40k to begin with....

I do want to play science fiction, not fantasy. If I wanted cavalry, I'd play WFB...

Cavalry's been a part of 40k since forever so it's not going away. It's within what GW has always considered 40k's version of scifi: a mixture of super science most people don't understand and hold overs from long dead military technology. Professional armies like Death Corp of Kreig use horses (with gas masks!) so I don't think Sisters are really above it.

I like the freak show aspect since it's the negative side of the Imperial church and it's a cool dichotomy between the "clean" aspect which is the Sisters and the "ugly" aspect which is the people either brainwashed by dogma or physically mutilated and mind wiped into service. The army can be made robust enough that it can incorporate a lot more units so you can make an entirely Sister force, with much more diversity than you can currently (I don't consider battle sisters with different weapons satisfactory) or a combination with other church units. I think it should still be Codex: Sisters of Battle and the focus should be on them and they shouldn't try and make too many crazy things but I do appreciate their presence.

What sorts of units do you want (not being snarky I'm genuinely curious of ways they could be expanding the army)?

18 page day's absence caught up on and looking at all the discussing that's been going on, I think I understand what Manchu is getting at and support if fully. I don't like the idea of sisters' cavalry much, or infiltrating sisters, but I love the idea of a vehicle Shrine/Cathedral.

I like the proposed way of using Spirit as it seems to reflect the sisters' faith being an example to those around them, and I'd also like to see sister's leading mobs of a faithful spurring them on, but I have to agree I don't think its an improvement on its current incarnation.

Also I really like the idea of elite sword (I'd also include maces) and shield sisters, maybe give them artificer armour and to keep them in line with other codices vets, 2A basic.

But I still want plastic sisters above a new codex

Edit forgot to add choir sounds good, maybe make them amplify the AoF for units within X inches?

Only problem with 2+ save Sisters with power weapons and shields is GW could forget they are still T3 and overprice them. Pile enough wounds (or power weapon attacks) on that unit and it will go down fast. The image is awesome so if they were priced appropriately I would be on board.

I'd go for 25-30 pts, and thats only if they get all the tricks (CA, retaliation hits etc) even then I think 30 would be too much cause of the T3

For the mobile shrine-- what would you pay, points-wise, for a vehicle with defensive weaponry (flamer/SB) that allowed units within 12" (?) to use an AoF without burning a faith point?

Would it be enough of a force multiplier to warrant inclusion in a competitive build?

Codexes aren't made to have every single entry as a viable inclusion into competitive builds.

As much as I like the current faith point system I kind of want it to be gone. I have to explain it every other game and have even been accused of cheating in a tournament (apparently not very well since I lost that game) because I didn't "buy" my faith points whatever that means (before anyone asks my units had all their sergeant upgrades). I still want some sort of miracle effect but I kind of want them to incorporate it in a way that doesn't involve book keeping or rolling OVER things since that's apparently too much for some people to keep track of.

Kanluwen wrote:Codexes aren't made to have every single entry as a viable inclusion into competitive builds.

Yeah... because units that suck are big sellers.

Compare any of the most recent codexes with any of the ones from 3e. There's a lot fewer just terribad units in the new codexes. Codex creep?

No. GW just realized that people want to play with models that don't have crappy rules.

Besides, your argument suggests that GW should, intentionally, design a unit that is over-costed in points/fills no role in an army/is inferior on the field.

Really? That sounds like very poor design to me.