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Powered armor, in the sense of this definition:

"A powered exoskeleton is a powered mobile machine consisting primarily of an exoskeleton-like framework worn by a person and a power supply that supplies at least part of the activation-energy for limb movement."

With armor plating rather than just the exoskeleton. Even civilian powered armor provides better protection all around than stormtrooper carapace. But without the "powered" portion of the armor, they're almost impossible to move by normal humans. They don't reduce the human's speed and agility while powered, however.

focusedfire wrote: I pefer to think of the difference as an indication that Good old fashioned sexism is still alive and well in the 41st millenium.

Assuming the human race hasn't evolved much in the 41st millenium that would be biology, not sexism. Males at their peak will always be stronger than females at their peak due to the natural chemicals in their body that are oriented as such. The power armor is significantly different than that of marines. Since the Sisters are not able to fully integrate with a marines armor, due to not having the gene-seed, the marines armor might actually be a liability in comparison with their current armor in what it enables them to do.

Also, what was the marines strength value in 3rd ed? I'm a newer player so as far as I know it may be that they need to be caught up.

In regards to the artillery discussion early in the thread: no av14. It should have the same armor as the Whirlwind as it provides the same function. It's artillery, if its being blasted early on, you've likely done something wrong.

Oh please, people overestimate the difference between males and females. There is not enough difference between human females and human males to make the S3 / S4 comparison valid. What makes Marines stronger is a combination of the Astartes physiology (Marines are NOT human) and spank.

Also, Sisters do not use Astartes armor. Sisters are, on average, around 5'6" in height. Marines are on average 8' in height. Astartes armor wouldn't even FIT a Battle Sister.

No, Sisters powered armor is designed specifically for humans, and probably specifically for Sisters of Battle. Just looking at the models should tell you this... no part of the Sisters models looks like the Marines models...

Luco wrote:Since the Sisters are not able to fully integrate with a marines armor, due to not having the gene-seed, the marines armor might actually be a liability in comparison with their current armor in what it enables them to do.

Melissia wrote:Also, Sisters do not use Astartes armor. Sisters are, on average, around 5'6" in height. Marines are on average 8' in height. Astartes armor wouldn't even FIT a Battle Sister.

No, Sisters powered armor is designed specifically for humans, and probably specifically for Sisters of Battle. Just looking at the models should tell you this... no part of the Sisters models looks like the Marines models...

As Melissia said;
Sisters use different power armour then marines. Old fluff has it that marines have their armour built around them and removal is a long process so they mostly never take it off.
Sisters on the other hand have theirs fitted like clothing but like marine PA, and I can't remember where this was said (I think the old citadel journals), Sisters have it made specifically for them so anyone else baring twins would have trouble fitting into it.

Luco wrote:Also, what was the marines strength value in 3rd ed? I'm a newer player so as far as I know it may be that they need to be caught up.

S4, they were always S4.

Luco wrote:In regards to the artillery discussion early in the thread: no av14. It should have the same armor as the Whirlwind as it provides the same function. It's artillery, if its being blasted early on, you've likely done something wrong.

I don't see a problem. Sisters function differently, namely they must control the 12" range. Any support will be quickly focused on by the enemy and will probably need that extra armour.

Well thanks for agreeing with me that their armor is different, I was trying to give a reason for such and the strength gap.
Exagerated eh?
Most weight ever lifted by a woman: 2,195 lbs by Laurel trinh
Most weight ever lifted by a man: 6,270 lbs by Paul Anderson

I think that 4,000 pounds qualifies as the difference between s3 and s4.

Still its artillery, it shouldnt have any difference in armor from other artillery.

Kettu wrote:S4, they were always S4.

I believe in the original Rogue Trader release they were strength 3. Of course exactly what a Space Marine is in the fluff has changed a lot since then.

Interesting. Thanks for the info on the old versions of the marines Kettu and sebster.

Luco wrote:Well thanks for agreeing with me that their armor is different, I was trying to give a reason for such and the strength gap.
Exagerated eh?
Most weight ever lifted by a woman: 2,195 lbs by Laurel trinh
Most weight ever lifted by a man: 6,270 lbs by Paul Anderson

I think that 4,000 pounds qualifies as the difference between s3 and s4.

Still its artillery, it shouldnt have any difference in armor from other artillery.

If something justifies the Strength difference between SoB and SM, it's not being male or female. It's the Astartes modifications. SoB are human. IG are human males (there are very few IG female minis) and have... S3.

Soldiers are not weight lifters. A trained woman using a knife against you will probably be as harmful as a trained man.

Erasoketa wrote:Soldiers are not weight lifters. A trained woman using a knife against you will probably be as harmful as a trained man.

Heh, exactly. Looking at the records set by WEIGHT LIFTERS is kinda useless...

The difference between a trained, athletic woman and a trained, athletic man in a combat situation is not as great as most people think. Especially in modern combat. No, the main reasons women aren't usually allowed on the front lines is sociological/psychological, rather than biological. The Imperium has no such restrictions by the way

They don't have restrictions, but they have the same ingrained psychology.

Cadia as an example, arguably the single biggest warzone, restricts women from serving in the Shock regiments that operate offworld. They serve in the Interior Guard regiments or as naval security troopers on Cadia, and very rarely with the Commissariat offworld.

A side note: Cadia isn't likely to be larger than Armageddon or Catachan, which themselves are effectively one large warzone (the latter being, of course, at war with their own planet as a whole).

Regardless, I don't think being made to stay on Cadia is exactly an example of psychology saying that they are better or worse soldiers. Cadia is, after all, a hellhole.

It's an example of the psychology that you don't put women on the frontlines due to the fact that it triggers a portion of the male mind that triggers an overprotective instinct in regards to the female troopers.

It's never been about are they "better or worse soldiers".

But then arguably Cadians have had that part bred out fo them because of their constant fighting and soldiering.

If they wanted to get female Cadians out of danger, they'd get them off Cadia.

Not really, Cadia's the safest place for them.

I mean a whole planet full of arguably the best soldiery in the Imperium, barring the Adeptus Astartes?

I'd feel pretty damned safe there

Kanluwen wrote:Not really, Cadia's the safest place for them.

I mean a whole planet full of arguably the best soldiery in the Imperium, barring the Adeptus Astartes?

I'd feel pretty damned safe there

It's also a warzone where the full force of chaos constantly invades-- and they only barely managed a draw, so part of Cadia was actually conquered by the forces of Chaos in the last crusade(at least, IIRC), and they're now basically non-stop fighting there.

Chaos managed to get a foothold on the planet with massed drops from orbit, but they evac'd the Interior Guard and a large amount of the Cadian citizenry to areas that were still fully under Guard control.

Which only proves my point, if they REALLY wanted them to be safe they'd get them off Cadia to begin with, to some other nearby world. Cadia is now a constant warzone against chaos marines, traitor guard, and daemons.

edit: by the way this is getting really off-topic lol

sebster wrote:

Kettu wrote:S4, they were always S4.

I believe in the original Rogue Trader release they were strength 3. Of course exactly what a Space Marine is in the fluff has changed a lot since then.

Incorrect. They were S4, T3. The toughness was later changed.

The strength difference between a man and a woman is not representable in 40K where the difference between a man and an ork is not represented.

its called an example of the differences of capability. Not useless at all.

Looking at what the best can do (IE, your comparison) is completely irrelevant. Looking at what the average trained soldier can do is more important (or to be more bluntly, it is important, unlike your comparison). In that comparison, the differences are minimal in the battlefields of 40k.

Oh please, people overestimate the difference between males and females. There is not enough difference between human females and human males to make the S3 / S4 comparison valid

I was primarily responding to this piece of neofeminist bs. There is plenty a gap between what males and what females can physically do to make that gap valid, pardoning the gene-seed and the extra training done by the marines.

Luco wrote:neofeminist

Lol, what a douche.

The difference between strength three and strength four is the difference between the average human, and a being that has the ability to immobilize a tank with a single punch . The difference between S3 and S4 is the difference between a human and an Astartes, who are supposedly able to crush skulls just by gripping them tightly.

Do not give me any of this bs about "neofeminist", whatever the feth that means. The simple FACT remains that there is not a big enough difference between a male and female human to change the strength in a D6 system.

Honestly if you want to see what women can do in war read about the Soviet female conscripts in the Second World War. Frontline combat duty. Those women were scary.

you're calling me a douche when you don't even know what it means? Brilliant.

@nitros: I am not stating that women can't fight, I'm very well aware that they can and can do so just as well as men. Whether they can fight or not wasn't the point I was debating but rather the difference of strength either gender is capable of having. However, that would be an interesting read, any books in particular you would recommend?

*sigh*..Who really cares anyway? Can we get back on discussion?

I don't really CARE what it means. For that matter, even a quick google search shows that nobody can even agree on a definition anyway Tossing around terms like that is just eye-rollingly obnoxious.

My statements have nothing to do with feminism, but rather, a combination of biological fact and the needs of a combat zone. Inane comparisons between olympic weightlifters don't matter one iota to this discussion. Comparing the muscles of a trained human soldier in power armor with that of an Astartes in or out of power armor ends up with the human classified as S3 regardless of gender. Inquisitors in power armor are S3. Techpriests (who are in their own specialized power armor) are S3. Priests in power armor are S3. And so on and so forth.

Luco wrote:
@nitros: I am not stating that women can't fight, I'm very well aware that they can and can do so just as well as men. Whether they can fight or not wasn't the point I was debating but rather the difference of strength either gender is capable of having. However, that would be an interesting read, any books in particular you would recommend?

I don't know of any books specifically on that subject, but there's lots of anecdotes in various histories of WWII. I specifically remember a chapter in H.P. Wilmott's "The Great Crusade" mentioning the reaction of a German Panzer Column who encountered an all-female Soviet company manning an anti tank position in 1942 during the drive on Stalingrad who held their ground in vicious hand to hand fighting.

Of course, for the Germans it just confirmed their conception of Russians as 'subhuman' and 'barbarian'. What sort of 'civilized' nation sends women to war? or so went their thought.