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focusedfire wrote:


I disagree with this as to the end size and to it being a deterent towards a combined release. You take out the oversized painting section fillers and the akward combined forces rules you wold end up with less than 50 pages of units, rules, and equipement. Take those 50 pages in the new format(Remeber that a lot of the equipment will be redundant) and put in new units, fluff, and a 5th edition paint section and you'll end up with around a 100 page Codex.

Sm's codex is 144 pages

IG codex is 104

Okay, let's go back to what we were saying about # of units.

SM = 43 Units (counting characters) - 144 Pages
IG = 31 Units (counting Characters) - 104 Pages

C: WH - 23 Units
C: DH 11 Not Counting Overlap), 20 with overlap
2 Char, 2 HQ, 1 Retinue, 5 elitesm, 2 Troops,3 Transports,5 Heavy

These numbers do not include 'Inducted Troops' and 'Allied Space Marines', which should arguably be included in their own entries to avoid multiple codex syndrome.

So 3 more units than the IG codex and we're going to fit it into less space ? That would assume we get no new units, characters and lose our allies. AND we lose the painting section.

Unlikely.

More realistically for a 'combined codex' is about 40-60 (Counting Allies) units and a ton of fluff/painting crap. So closer to about 200-250 pages.

I still think that combined is unlikely.

pretre wrote:

focusedfire wrote:


I disagree with this as to the end size and to it being a deterent towards a combined release. You take out the oversized painting section fillers and the akward combined forces rules you wold end up with less than 50 pages of units, rules, and equipement. Take those 50 pages in the new format(Remeber that a lot of the equipment will be redundant) and put in new units, fluff, and a 5th edition paint section and you'll end up with around a 100 page Codex.

Sm's codex is 144 pages

IG codex is 104

Okay, let's go back to what we were saying about # of units.

SM = 43 Units (counting characters) - 144 Pages
IG = 31 Units (counting Characters) - 104 Pages

C: WH - 23 Units
C: DH 11 Not Counting Overlap), 20 with overlap
2 Char, 2 HQ, 1 Retinue, 5 elitesm, 2 Troops,3 Transports,5 Heavy

These numbers do not include 'Inducted Troops' and 'Allied Space Marines', which should arguably be included in their own entries to avoid multiple codex syndrome.

So 3 more units than the IG codex and we're going to fit it into less space ? That would assume we get no new units, characters and lose our allies. AND we lose the painting section.

Unlikely.

More realistically for a 'combined codex' is about 40-60 (Counting Allies) units and a ton of fluff/painting crap. So closer to about 200-250 pages.

I still think that combined is unlikely.

First, Your count is off. It is 50 SM units including vehicles and it is 61 IG Units counting the Vehicles. This places the Combined Forces codex as smaller than either SM or IG before adding any new units.

Second, Note that I said include a 5th edition paint section(Meaing a reduced and combined section). Then, the paint sections for SM 5th ed is 23 pages and for the IG 16 pages. Split the difference and call it 18 Pages.

Third, Drop the Ordos Specific Inquisitor, Just have an Inquisitor and a SC Inquisitor Lord.

Fourth, Add New SC's

Fifth, Remove the Inquisition special scenario fillers in the backs of each book that I failed to mention earlier.


You will find that a Codex on par with the Sm & IG is not only plausible but from a business standpoint, Very likely. And this is without losing the special flavour of either army.

focusedfire wrote:

First, Your count is off. It is 50 SM units including vehicles and it is 61 IG Units counting the Vehicles. This places the Combined Forces codex as smaller than either SM or IG before adding any new units.

Okay, if you're gonna call me on counting, get your count right. I didn't count Retinues so that brings us to 46 if you want to be reaaaally literal.

Characters (11) - Marn, Cato, Tigur, Cass, Pedro, Lysander, Shrike, Vulkan, Khan, Telion, Chronus
HQ (7) - Chapter M, Captain, Librarian, Chaplain, Honour Guard, Command Squad, MotF
Troops (2) - Tactical, Scout
Transport (3) - Rhino, RB, Drop Pod
Elite (9) - Term, Term Assault, Stern, Ven Dread, Dread, IC Dread, TechM, Servitors, LotD
FA (7) - Assault, Vang, LS Squad, Bikes, Attack B, Storm, Scout Bike
HS (7) - Dev, TFC, LR, LRR, Whirl, Vind, LRC

Second, Note that I said include a 5th edition paint section(Meaing a reduced and combined section). Then, the paint sections for SM 5th ed is 23 pages and for the IG 16 pages. Split the difference and call it 18 Pages.
Third, Drop the Ordos Specific Inquisitor, Just have an Inquisitor and a SC Inquisitor Lord.
Fourth, Add New SC's
Fifth, Remove the Inquisition special scenario fillers in the backs of each book that I failed to mention earlier.

And you will have less units than we have now. So Yes, you are right. If they add no new units and keep the allies out of the codex or cut them entirely, than we can absolutely fit it into a SM size codex.





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Also, 61 for IG counts every variant vehicle. Which don't even get their own pages. I don't count that, since they are basically wargear changes. Whereas each individual unit gets their own page.


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All that being said, I am talking about adding units to the codex, as they have done with each 5th edition release. So GK would have about 10-20, Sisters 10-20 and Allies/Inquisitors/Assassins 10-20. That is more. Hence more space. Hence bigger book.

If you are saying that it can be done in a SM codex Then you are saying that it can be done profitably.

IMO, I think the allies rules will just explain the presence of one or two new units and where all the vehicles come from. There have been rumors of the allies rules going the way of the dodo so this would be no big deal.

In many ways I hope this is the route GW takes as it will give them the excuse to cast some of my favorite models in plastics. Don't get me wrong, when it comes to conversions I like metal better but for cost of an army it would be nice to asee some plastic battle sisters and Grey Knights.

focusedfire wrote:If you are saying that it can be done in a SM codex Then you are saying that it can be done profitably.

IMO, I think the allies rules will just explain the presence of one or two new units and where all the vehicles come from. There have been rumors of the allies rules going the way of the dodo so this would be no big deal.

In many ways I hope this is the route GW takes as it will give them the excuse to cast some of my favorite models in plastics. Don't get me wrong, when it comes to conversions I like metal better but for cost of an army it would be nice to asee some plastic battle sisters and Grey Knights.

I don't think a combined codex is profitable or wise. That's my whole point.

Re: Allies. You're thinking of WH/DH in IG/SM armies. (i.e. The ol' Inq and Mystics) There have been no rumors about losing IG/SM in WH/DH armies. Which no one really complains about.

And please please please Sister Plastics.

@pretre-

1) Lets just agree to disagree on the profitability of the combined codex.

2)GW has made it very clear that they are moving towards stand alone codices. This means no allies either way unless they are actually in the codex.

This by its very nature will push the Sisters and Grey Knights either towards MEQ or GEQ, thus ruining their flavor. This is also why I hope for a combined Codex because the Sisters and Grey Knights will be more likely to maintain their flavor in such a book as opposed to being in a book with SM's or IG.

3)Yes Please, Even if only a few plastics.

focusedfire wrote:@pretre-

2)GW has made it very clear that they are moving towards stand alone codices. This means no allies either way unless they are actually in the codex.

This by its very nature will push the Sisters and Grey Knights either towards MEQ or GEQ, thus ruining their flavor. This is also why I hope for a combined Codex because the Sisters and Grey Knights will be more likely to maintain their flavor in such a book as opposed to being in a book with SM's or IG.

I agree. That's why they will have entries in the Sisters, WH, Inq or whatever codex that say. 'Inducted Guard Platoon, stats, points, etc.'

Similar to how they have Inducted ST now. Or so is my guess. That way you only need your army book, even with 'inducted/allied' troops.

To be fair:
Stormtroopers in the WH/DH codexes as it stands are not inducted. They're the "Inquisitorial" Stormtroopers.

Same basic equipment, totally different training and mission goals.

Kanluwen wrote:To be fair:
Stormtroopers in the WH/DH codexes as it stands are not inducted. They're the "Inquisitorial" Stormtroopers.

Same basic equipment, totally different training and mission goals.

Yeah yeah. I wrote inducted instead of Inq. PHBT!

You know what I meant. I should have just typed IST like I intended.

The problem with these inducted units is that the currently codices are not restricting access to units unless they are unique.

Trying to classify the allies as unique becomes a problem. What you will end up getting are nothing but best of lists where only the most optimal sisters units are taken and then a list that makes them a SM or an IG army. This is what I'm hoping to avoid.

focusedfire wrote:The problem with these inducted units is that the currently codices are not restricting access to units unless they are unique.

Trying to classify the allies as unique becomes a problem. What you will end up getting are nothing but best of lists where only the most optimal sisters units are taken and then a list that makes them a SM or an IG army. This is what I'm hoping to avoid.

No, you're not understanding what I'm saying.

In this hypothetical Codex it would not have any references to other codexes and no codexes would be able to use them. So there would be in the C: WH (5th)

HQ: Canoness 100 pts WS 4 BS 5, etc

Troops: BS Squad 100 Pts WS 3 BS 4, etc

Inducted Guard Squad 30 Pts WS 3 BS , etc.

Allied SM Tac Squad 100 pts WS 4, BS4, etc (Cannot be taken if any Adeptas Sororitas squads are taken)

etc.

So the old 'allied' rules would be baked into the codex with their own 'Space Marine' and 'Imperial Guard' units that were generic (or flavorful) Inquisition/Ally versions.

It would allow people to keep the best part of C: WH/DH, the customization and combined arms feel while still being able to play 'pure' lists.

Would anyone ever pick up C:SM and say "you know, what I really want out of this book is an army without Marines"? More to the point, would anyone ever point at C:CSM and say "I should be able to get a Daemons-only army out of this book"? That's absurd. No one says this because GW has not fostered the ludicrous expectation that you should be able to do it. Instead, GW printed up C:CD for people who wanted to build a proper Daemon army. Maybe there should be a Codex: Ordo Hereticus or a Codex: Inquisition for people like WarbossTzoo. But it shouldn't come at the cost of the Sisters of Battle--i.e., another C:WH. The concept behind C:WH is the same as slicing up C:CSM and C:CD, mishmashing them together, and calling it something like "Codex: Warriors of the Warp" or "Codex: Servants of Chaos." If you can't see how this weakens both forces then I'm not sure that there is anything I can say that will get through to you.

Defending C:WH as a better book than the 2nd ed. Sisters Codex or some WD article isn't much of a point. Of course it was better. In that same vein, 5th ed. is better than 2nd ed.--you're not generating any new insight by saying so. Similarly, did C:WH save the Sisters from a worse fate (and this line of thought, by the way, is totally a zero sum game argument)? Maybe so, but that's not the point, either. Yes, C:WH is better than nothing but it's approach is far, far, far from ideal. It's actually not good for the Inquisition, not good for the Ecclesiarchy, and not good for the Sisters. Why should we perpetuate its mistakes just because it has been better than nothing. Getting back to my point from my long post, Sisters do most if not all of the work for C:WH out of the factions, or "brands," represented in that Codex. As such, they're the brand that has the best chance of being successful if strengthened. Insisting that the Sisters aren't a "frontline army," whatever that means, is immaterial to this calculation.

Complaining that Sisters are metal is also lame. No 5th ed. dex has been released without plastic troops. If anything, Sisters are a great candidate for plastic releases precisely because being metal holds up so many customers who are otherwise interested. Furthermore, Sisters of Battle--like SM--don't have a huge amount of visual variety and thus stand to be offered as kits from which many different units could be assembled--a la the oh-so-popular Blood Claws/Grey Hunters/Wolf Guard packs. Finally, arguing that Sisters would not have enough units for the type of re-release that I'm talking about is totally absurd. The only model they'd even lose would be ugly, expensive Inquisitorial Stormtroopers. The precedent of new model releases for 5th ed. codex indicates that redoing Sisters as C:SoB with Ecclesiarchal forces as I've outlined would be entirely feasible.

My own opinions on this are probably well known by now.

I'd rather see the Inquisition get its own codex, and the Sisters left out of it. Whether or not the Grey Knights and Deathwatch should be merged into Codex =][=, I'm unsure about, but Sisters have a TON of room for expansion by a creative enough writer.

And a quick point on allied/inducted troops. These need to go as they are a major blow to brand strength. If Sisters have to suffer under this penalty to their integrity as a force (for no good fluff reason, I might add) then every other Imperial force should have to do it as well along with taking up space in their book for an Inquisitor Lord HQ option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:. . . but Sisters have a TON of room for expansion by a creative enough writer.

I don't think they even need expansion (beyond a few units and some special characters, like other 5th ed. codices) so we don't even have to bank on them getting a creative writer. As you know, I'm not really a fan of having infiltrating Sisters or Sisters on bikes (to me, it doesn't suit their identity)--but as far as a fandex goes, to each their own.

@pretre-I follow what your getting at, experience tells me otherwise.

It tells me that you will end up with a Sisters command squad leading a best of list that has minimal sisters units in it. People will mathhammer the fluff right out of the proposed stand alone codices by running cheap IG units in chimeras as troops. for a better than IG - IG army or it will become SM's everywhere in the list making the Sisters a defacto SM variant.

Sisters are middle of the road units and when offered non-sister units that do one thing or the other better then the Sisters units in those slots will not get used. This will set a sales trend that will lead GW away from where the sisters should be.

If the sisters units are better than the allies then there will be no reason to take them and your back to paying full price for half a codex.

Do you see the problem?

I do, however. I want a Sisters/Ecclesiarchy codex with thirty units BEFORE special characters

focusedfire wrote:Sisters are middle of the road units and when offered non-sister units that do one thing or the other better then the Sisters units in those slots will not get used. This will set a sales trend that will lead GW away from where the sisters should be.

If the sisters units are better than the allies then there will be no reason to take them and your back to paying full price for half a codex.

This is exactly right. And this is exactly what my OP aims at fixing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:I do, however. I want a Sisters/Ecclesiarchy codex with thirty units BEFORE special characters

Same here. But I wouldn't cry if C:SoB 5th was announced today with only twenty five units before special characters.

My own opinions on this are probably well known by now.

I'd rather see the Inquisition get its own codex, and the Grey Knights left out of it. Whether or not the Sisters and Deathwatch should be merged into Codex =][=, I'm unsure about, but Grey Knights have a TON of room for expansion by a creative enough writer.

It can work for all three Chambers Militant.

They're symbiotic entities. The Ordos, without the Grey Knights or Deathwatch or Sisters, are just glorified Imperial Guard forces with far more fighty HQs and weird armory options. Losing the Inquisitorial support, while making for a "pure" force defeats the purpose of the army.

In all honesty, the only real "best" solution I see is a massive sourcebook that gathers the Inquisition and their respective Chambers Militant into a format along with specific campaign story arcs leading into their deployment alongside "standard" forces.

Melissia wrote:My own opinions on this are probably well known by now.

I'd rather see the Inquisition get its own codex, and the Sisters left out of it. Whether or not the Grey Knights and Deathwatch should be merged into Codex =][=, I'm unsure about, but Sisters have a TON of room for expansion by a creative enough writer.

Agreed.

GW's ignoring and downplaying of such a core and characterful part of the Imperium (The ecclesiarchy) is shameful. So much potential for such a cool and characterful army with tons of flavor and modeling options (thus sales).

When i bought and collected all those sisters models starting with the WD article and then the 2nd edition codex it was to play SOB/ecclessiarchy themed force, not the Inquisition.

I strongly resent having had my army shoehorned into codex:WH because GW felt the need to put some Power armour equivalent to the GK in it.

I want the missionary and confessor HQ choices back.

I want fraternis militia and zealots back.

I want updated versions of the special characters from the 2nd edition SOB codex.

I want more loadout options for Penitent engines.

I want more varied arco-flagellants.

I want hand flamers back.

I want faith points to stay and acts of faith to be expanded.

Anything less and my SOB( over 3K of pure sisters and zealots, etc.) are gonna stay moth-balled at the least, and most likely sold off...

Kanluwen wrote:In all honesty, the only real "best" solution I see is a massive sourcebook that gathers the Inquisition and their respective Chambers Militant into a format along with specific campaign story arcs leading into their deployment alongside "standard" forces.

This assumes that the Inquisition needs to be an army rather than just a floating HQ option. Frankly, I could see a combined Codex: Inquisition that contained actual Inquisition forces--like GK and rules on making DW squads. But the Sisters are not an Inquisitorial force in the same sense as those other groups.


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CT GAMER wrote:GW's ignoring and downplaying of such a core and characterful part of the Imperium (The ecclesiarchy) is shameful. So much potential for such a cool and characterful army with tons of flavor and modeling options (thus sales).

I agree with almost everything in your post. The only thing I would bring up is that the Ecclesiarchy is not an army and doesn't have an army. The closest it comes is rabble-rousing the Frateris Militia around a core of Sisters. A potential C:SoB should be able to do this--as I indicated in the OP. Would you like this kind of option?

Kanluwen wrote:Well your Codex is full of crap, because every other background source(from the "13th Black Crusade guidebook" published by Black Library to the "Sabbat Worlds Crusade" book published by the same) states that "Wars of Faith" require the full approval of all the branches of the Imperial bureaucracy to be declared.

Oh and by the by?

Deathwatch, just like Sisters, would never be deployed as frontline troops.

Just like Grey Knights aren't either.

Say it with me here sweetheart.
They are specialist troops, who are tailored to fighting one specific incarnation of the Imperium's foes. They are the defense against the corruption within.

Kind of harsh, isn't it, saying a codex is full of crap. Cause according to the sister of battle codex back in 2nd edition. War of Faith only require the Ecclesiarchy and the approval of the high lords of Terra.
It only contain the warriors of Sisters of battle and Frateris Militant. Wars of Faith are "sometimes" assisted by the High Lords of Terran and even Guard. Which means Guard are only there sometimes.
In the Current Witch Hunter Codex it doesn't even mention anything about Guard when it comes to a war of faith.
Now please give a valid source, cause Sabbat World Crusade is a Crusade not a War of Faith, their is the difference between the two as stated in a war of faith.Also when have Death Watch ever been deployed as a chapter?
Also please, give some references.

Also what did chaos daemons have before they got a full fledged Codex? 12 units in total? Now they have a full fledged 5 edition codex with over 30 units if you include special characters.

Manchu wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CT GAMER wrote:GW's ignoring and downplaying of such a core and characterful part of the Imperium (The ecclesiarchy) is shameful. So much potential for such a cool and characterful army with tons of flavor and modeling options (thus sales).

I agree with almost everything in your post. The only thing I would bring up is that the Ecclesiarchy is not an army and doesn't have an army. The closest it comes is rabble-rousing the Frateris Militia around a core of Sisters. A potential C:SoB should be able to do this--as I indicated in the OP. Would you like this kind of option?

I understand this concerning the ecclessiarchy and their forbibbance to have a standing army, etc.

However when they feel the need they are able to skirt the issue via the SOB and gathered zealots/rabble. This could be represented in codex terms by not allowing any non-SOB to fill core requirements (1HQ/ 2 troops, etc.) or a rule that non-SOB units in an army may not outnumber SOB units, etc. Plenty of ways to represent this.

Also old fluff isn't new fluff: Blood Angels didn't used to all wear jumppacks. They used to be a standard codex astartes chapter that tried to hide it's curse and operate like a standard chapter. Space wolves didn't use to ride giant cat-dogs, etc., Land raiders didn't use to fall from the sky... etc., etc.

Point being that old fluff can't reliably be used as the yardstick for new codexes because GW has shown a desire/willingness to change/ignore established fluff very readily.

To answer your question yes I would like that...

CT GAMER wrote:This could be represented in codex terms by not allowing any non-SOB to fill core requirements (1HQ/ 2 troops, etc.)

This was what I suggested in the OP. I am open to other ways of handling it, however, as there may very well me a better way.

plastic SOB models would be nice. The fact that they are metal is what keeping me away from them...

Necrosis wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Well your Codex is full of crap, because every other background source(from the "13th Black Crusade guidebook" published by Black Library to the "Sabbat Worlds Crusade" book published by the same) states that "Wars of Faith" require the full approval of all the branches of the Imperial bureaucracy to be declared.

Oh and by the by?

Deathwatch, just like Sisters, would never be deployed as frontline troops.

Just like Grey Knights aren't either.

Say it with me here sweetheart.
They are specialist troops, who are tailored to fighting one specific incarnation of the Imperium's foes. They are the defense against the corruption within.

Kind of harsh, isn't it, saying a codex is full of crap. Cause according to the sister of battle codex back in 2nd edition. War of Faith only require the Ecclesiarchy and the approval of the high lords of Terra.
It only contain the warriors of Sisters of battle and Frateris Militant. Wars of Faith are "sometimes" assisted by the High Lords of Terran and even Guard. Which means Guard are only there sometimes.
In the Current Witch Hunter Codex it doesn't even mention anything about Guard when it comes to a war of faith.
Now please give a valid source, cause Sabbat World Crusade is a Crusade not a War of Faith, their is the difference between the two as stated in a war of faith.Also when have Death Watch ever been deployed as a chapter?
Also please, give some references.

Also what did chaos daemons have before they got a full fledged Codex? 12 units in total? Now they have a full fledged 5 edition codex with over 30 units if you include special characters.

Trying to argue that SOB can't be a standalone army or can't be front line troops is pointless, especially when such a stance is based upon outdated fluff.

Fluff that GW itself ignores and rewrites at will as it pleases as evidenced by many recent codexes.

The only justification GW needs to do anything is a belief that something will sell and be profitable. They lost their credibility in regards to fluff and it's use to limit codexes a long long time ago...

So we don't need to fit sisters into outdated fluff, we simply have to hope that enough people might be interested in buying whatever list they come up with to make it seem a worthwhile project for GW to commit to...

Which I would argue would be a Sisters of Battle / Ecclesiarchy codex, which allows for either the professional soldier outlook (pure Sisters, no fanatics, no crazy units, etc) or a more crazed religious nutjob outlook (frateris militia, p.engines, arcos, repentia, etc), and both of them get expanded and are done justice in the codex. all fifth edition codices have such variations in them... Guard is the best example, there's just so much variation that it's astounding.

I think something like that-- with a good range of plastic miniatures-- would do a far better job of selling models than C:WH did.

If they move towards making Sisters of Battle the full on militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy--no Repentia, nothing to make the Sisters of Battle look like anything over than the devout warriors they're supposed to be, but maybe have something like allowing Frateris Militia alongside it?

I would be fine with that.

What I don't want to see is them basically copy/pasting unit ideas from the Space Marines' Order of Battle or the Imperial Guards' OOB.

A fast attack unit of Sisters with jump packs, able to use their flamethrowers at the peak of their jump alongside of being able to use their jump packs to scorch the heretic and the unpure?

Hell, that'd be awesome.

A Sisters' special ability that is "combining fire"(literally) wherein they concentrate flamethrower shots to have the point of convergence being counted as rending or ignoring invulnerable saves?

I could see that representing their methodical advance and scorching the ground before them.

That's all I can really think of to make them notably "different" from Space Marines and to provide some examples of what I'd like to see, personally.

Kanluwen, once again you are right on the money. But why no Repentia? I think they're a must.

I guess my problem with this discussion is the all or nothing approach that people take.

"If there isn't a codex with 30 units without X, I won't be happy."

"If there aren't Ordos, I'll sell my army."

"If they don't have Archo-flagi-pentia in there I'll scream."

I count my lucky stars that we have a codex and haven't gotten eaten by Tyranids yet.

If we get any kind of codex, combined, not combined, pure sisters, C: WH 2.0, I'll be happy.

From my perspective, I would like a buff to sisters with new units that aren't Girl SM, a retention of Inquisitors and their forces and GK. All together or apart, I could care less. As long as I don't lose the 9 units I have for girls, get cheap rhinos and maybe gain a little extra, I'll be happy.

Manchu wrote:Kanluwen, once again you are right on the money. But why no Repentia? I think they're a must.

Honestly? Because I get the sneaking suspicion that once they lose their faith---they'd probably be put to death, as quietly as possible, to show that "The Daughters of the Emperor" are as uncorrupted and pure as the Angels of Death.

Because, remember, the average Imperial Citizen and even the Guardsmen who are hard campaigners?

They don't know that the big guys leading Chaos incursions are, in fact, fallen Space Marines.