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kartofelkopf wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Codexes aren't made to have every single entry as a viable inclusion into competitive builds.

Yeah... because units that suck are big sellers.

Compare any of the most recent codexes with any of the ones from 3e. There's a lot fewer just terribad units in the new codexes. Codex creep?

No. GW just realized that people want to play with models that don't have crappy rules.

Besides, your argument suggests that GW should, intentionally, design a unit that is over-costed in points/fills no role in an army/is inferior on the field.

Really? That sounds like very poor design to me.

I point you to the Stormtroopers, Deathstrike Missile Launchers, Special Weapons Squads with Sniper Rifles, and the Dark Angels Company Veterans.

That's just off the top of my head.

They don't "intentionally" doing it, sure. But it's what happens, and makes these arguments of "Well X army has Y amount of units, why don't Sisters!" stupid.

Not every unit is going to be a competitive unit. They put a lot of filler units in there, intended to really do nothing but portray the background of the army.

And that's my point- they should STRIVE to make the units competitive.

ST aren't unplayable-- deepstriking melta will always be playable in a mech-heavy meta. I run them in a russ-heavy list to make up for not having as many melta vets as I could.

And pointing out a single weapon upgrade that isn't widely used is hardly an indictment of the unit at large. People field SWS with demo pretty frequently...

DA got updated when...? Oh, they're the first of the 'new' codexes... and it shows.

But, my argument wasn't that EVERY unit in a codex IS competitive, but that every unit in a codex SHOULD BE competitive. And GW has gotten miles better about that since 3E (Repentia? Arcos? Grey Knights as a whole?)

/I've nothing to say in defence of the Deathstrikes. Those Apocalypse rejects can DIAF as far as I'm concerned.
//They see the battlefield in themed scenarios only

There's a ton of stuff that I can point out about DA, but I restricted it to Company Veterans. Scouts, for example, make no sense.

But if your argument is that every unit should be competitive, then I agree. However my caveat is that we shouldn't be forced to rely on gimmick units like Ratlings and Ogryn(to use a Guard example again) when we could have Stormtroopers and Sniper Teams able to fill the same role, just with a bit different stats.

I agree re: ratlings-- I've always used standard Guardsmen with SR as counts-as Ratlings. Mostly because I dislike space hobbit models.

I think Ogryn might see an uptick in usage once GK are no longer allowed as allied units. At the moment, GKT are a CC crutch that IG can fall back on, making Ogryn kind of useless.


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I think DA were the guinea pigs in the shift to standardized 5e format we see in all of the newer codexes. I know my friend doesn't run them as DA anymore- vanilla marines have more options and are better at what they do (SS/TH terms, for example).

Can't wait for a DA update... but I'd really prefer a BT one first : )

Well, for me GKT always seem like a far cooler option than Ogryns--especially alongside my ranks of fully helmed/visored, and gorgeously equipped Guardsmen. The ragged masses of Ogryn don't look anything remotely similar and it irks me.

Ixquic wrote:Cavalry's been a part of 40k since forever so it's not going away.

Which doesn't make me give one gak, nevermind two. Just because it's in doesn't mean I like it. Technically multilaser marines are in, too.

Cavalry's still a part of 40k, while multilaser Marines aren't.

Melissia wrote:

Ixquic wrote:Cavalry's been a part of 40k since forever so it's not going away.

Which doesn't make me give one gak, nevermind two. Just because it's in doesn't mean I like it. Technically multilaser marines are in, too.

In the unlikely event that there is one cavalry unit in the new codex, you're free not to use it.

I'd actually use it, but model it like bikers. Kinda like how I use Rough Riders.

Bikes would make far more sense then Calvary. I don't think horses could support them. Then again space wolves riding wolves.

As long as the bikes looked more gothic than the SM ones I'd go with that. Its better than cavalry anyhow, but knowing GW we'll get chariots pulled by giant cherubs

Ugh, I hope not.

Just you wait, the reality will probably make us wish it was only THIS silly

Even GW has standards.

Granted, those are fairly low, but sitll.

I;m still shaking my head over TWC - I like 40k for its WWI meets SCi-Fi feel (incidentally, cavalry were still [rarely] used in WWI)-- giant wolf-riders belong under goblins in a fantasy world.

I heard a rumor on BoLS (twitter) that GW might put inquisition codexes on their site. It was confirmed in white dwarf, apparently.

Egad... I've been following this thread for a few days and been laughing for most the time also.
But then I'm not one to talk myself, considering how I have been on some forums myself.

Ok, new ideas for Sisters...

Dominions given dual-wield bolt pistols as standard (A sort of Seraphim in training mayhaps?) or all given Storm Bolters standard. (Not like they are rare or anything) All have assault weapon options, none of this 0-4 nonsense.
Dominions and Retributions merged? All come with Storm bolter as standard with all getting the option of assault and heavy weapons. (Open to flamer abuse but that's a very weak excuse all things considered)

New heavy weapon, hand held exorcist launcher: Heavy1 36" S8 AP1?

Repentia given a shrine they could maybe drag around? boosts morale or some-such effect when you stand within 12" of it.
Bring in DH's Sisters Oblatia using the old Citadel Journal Repentia rules. (they are part of a squad and when the squad is charged they will jump forth allowing the rest of the squad to hang back and open up with their guns next turn)

You were talking about army theme earlier? Sisters are shown to be methodical, systematic and excellent (Well should be) at city fighting where their short range and flamers come to best effect. But not really a close combat army. (Yes, yes they are superior to guardsmen but that doesn’t count for much).

Sisters main tactic is mostly controlling the 12” range before them but considering that when you are close enough to use Flamers effectively you lose that advantage as any and every CC army has either enough armour/wounds, numbers or both to still just close the gap and kill you next turn. You must make that one turn of shooting flamers count.
Every other army will either have longer ranged weapons as standard or dedicated CC options or both.
An idea is instead of giving more CC options or longer weapons we make our flaw the armies strength and focus.

Maybe an ability or two that allows you to potentially avoid being charged. (Auto fall-back and regroup maybe?) That is, when potentially combined with the Oblatia above and Seraphim and Celestians for Sisters own CC ability. Makes a devastating combination to control the 12” no-mans-land.

More ideas: Mobile Cathedral. (14 all around, massive flamer, melta, bolter or Exorcist Launcher carries one squad up to 20 strong?)
Granted this seems like a Land Raider but without using the same kit then the main problem is avoided.
Although, if it’s a transport then maybe shorter ranged weapons?

I like the idea of say an Aquila Lander but with more transport and guns.

Cherubim could be introduced as common wargear but not attack squads like some people have mentioned in past threads.

Horses; as much as I love the The Last great Calvary Charge of the Australian Light Horse. I really don’t think Sisters need horses.
However, if they were included in the end I’d have a lot of fun toying with the entire angelic aspect.

More ideas could be garnered from various warrior women from history and mythology.

Perhaps Amazonian Sisters trained in death world environments.
Valkyrie Sisters trained in rapid raids and strikes using power spears (As was suggested earlier).
Gladiatrix Sisters whom only practice the martial arts that made the original Daughters of the Emperor and the now Celestian elites of the Adepta Sororitas such fearsome combatants.

Deathcultists? I know the current dex has them as =][= only but fluff-wise there are Ecclesiarchy temples that’ll raise and train them.

Heavily armed and armoured Sisters that although you purchase several per FO slot they are all solo characters?

So here are a few ideas for people to nitpick. Many are not ‘fluff’ based but I after trying to think of new options that are not stolen from marines or IG that did fit fluff I kinda started turning up nothing.

I’ll be back later.

Kettu wrote:

New heavy weapon, hand held exorcist launcher: Heavy1 36" S8 AP1?

There is a definite need for some long range anti tank weaponry readily available to infantry, but this sounds like a cheap(ish) fill-in. Also, would heavy weapon teams operate like IG teams? Or would they remain seperate?

Repentia given a shrine they could maybe drag around? boosts morale or some-such effect when you stand within 12" of it.

Sounds like the grail pilgrims from Fantasy, but wouldn't this severly limit their mobility/effectiveness?

You were talking about army theme earlier? Sisters are shown to be methodical, systematic and excellent (Well should be) at city fighting where their short range and flamers come to best effect. But not really a close combat army. (Yes, yes they are superior to guardsmen but that doesn’t count for much).

Depending on where a particular order is based you could, in theory, have specialised orders. The Order of the Bloody Vine, based on a jungle word, specialises in purifying more heretical native jungle planets. The Order of Frosty Consecration may be based on an ice planet. This is just me thinking off the top of my head.

Sisters main tactic is mostly controlling the 12” range before them but considering that when you are close enough to use Flamers effectively you lose that advantage as any and every CC army has either enough armour/wounds, numbers or both to still just close the gap and kill you next turn. You must make that one turn of shooting flamers count.
Every other army will either have longer ranged weapons as standard or dedicated CC options or both.
An idea is instead of giving more CC options or longer weapons we make our flaw the armies strength and focus.

I agree completely with you here. Changes to allow for some flexibility must be made. (SoB Saintly Snipers, maybe pleez? )

Maybe an ability or two that allows you to potentially avoid being charged. (Auto fall-back and regroup maybe?) That is, when potentially combined with the Oblatia above and Seraphim and Celestians for Sisters own CC ability. Makes a devastating combination to control the 12” no-mans-land.

Perhaps, maybe something that requires a leadership test (possibly with modifiers) to charge. This isn't going to help against a lot of CC units, there seems to be a plethora of such units that are fearless and/or something or other.

More ideas: Mobile Cathedral. (14 all around, massive flamer, melta, bolter or Exorcist Launcher carries one squad up to 20 strong?)
Granted this seems like a Land Raider but without using the same kit then the main problem is avoided.
Although, if it’s a transport then maybe shorter ranged weapons?

I think I just about gakked my pants. Finally, a WH () vehichle that can take a hit! Although I think AV14 all around might be a bit OTT. I'm thinking it could possibly be slow moving transport (Monolith likem, but without the unkillable-ness?), but with weapons not disimilar to a Land Raider Redeemer.

Horses; as much as I love the The Last great Calvary Charge of the Australian Light Horse. I really don’t think Sisters need horses.
However, if they were included in the end I’d have a lot of fun toying with the entire angelic aspect.

More ideas could be garnered from various warrior women from history and mythology.

Perhaps Amazonian Sisters trained in death world environments.
Valkyrie Sisters trained in rapid raids and strikes using power spears (As was suggested earlier).
Gladiatrix Sisters whom only practice the martial arts that made the original Daughters of the Emperor and the now Celestian elites of the Adepta Sororitas such fearsome combatants.

The SoB were founded from one such society, were they not? Perhaps this could be an elite unit based from the original home planet. Or something. It's an interesitng idea, but personally I would prefer that the riders were historically mounted on horses, and then upgraded to bikes.

Deathcultists? I know the current dex has them as =][= only but fluff-wise there are Ecclesiarchy temples that’ll raise and train them.

Heavily armed and armoured Sisters that although you purchase several per FO slot they are all solo characters?

Solo SoB Redemptionists? Would be interesting to see how they compare to the SW equivalent. I'm assuming that they would be CC orientated?

Emperors Faithful wrote:There is a definite need for some long range anti tank weaponry readily available to infantry, but this sounds like a cheap(ish) fill-in. Also, would heavy weapon teams operate like IG teams? Or would they remain seperate?

Why the hell would they?

The Sisters' power armor enhances their strength more than enough to carry heavy weapons by themselves. That's part of the POINT of powered armor.

>The Sisters' power armor enhances their strength

Then why are they strength 3?

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:>The Sisters' power armor enhances their strength

Then why are they strength 3?

Because strength 3 represents a wide range of strength.

Marine power armor enhances Marine strength, right? (yes, it does) Well, Scouts, who aren't in power armor, are strength 4. And yet Tacticals, who are, are also strength four.

Also? If powered armor did not increase the strength of the wearer beyond that of human capability, it would be immobile.

Marines are stupidly strong outside of power armour as well as inside.

Yes, and? Their fluff still says their armor enhances their strength. And yet it doesn't raise their strength past S4.

Power armor in general increases the user's strength. Even civilian models do that... hell, Amberley Vail practically tossed a car at a pair of genestealers.

S3 to S4 is a rather large gap. it is an abstract gap with no values applied to it but it is still a large one.

Sisters, whilst having the strength to bench press cars and punch through concrete, are still S3.
Abstract wise, I think a Marine out of armour would be about the same as a Sister in armour but for, what I assume game-play balance reasons, they are left as S4.

For a more accurate idea, check out the DH rpg rulebook and the soon to be DW rpg rulebook.

GW's excuse for the difference is the SM' having undergone surgical modification, Gene Seed implantation, and the Black Carapace allowing for the wearer to fully interface with their armour.

There are more holes in the black carapace part of their excuse than in aged swiss cheese. I pefer to think of the difference as an indication that Good old fashioned sexism is still alive and well in the 41st millenium.

@Kettu-Sisters only have the strength to bench press cars and punch through concrete when using an act of faith or an eviscerator.

What is Black Carapace anyway? Is it the suits neural interface?

If Power Armour works by sensing your movements and working with it, you would get really fatigue really quickly from the constant, if slight, resistance.

in the day and age where every Tom, Dick and Harry have neural interfacing items and limbs (Bionics to start) yet Power Armour only has this if you have Black Carapace?
That really sounds stupid.

And Sisters, in armour, are really strong. It is the flaw of a 10 score system using d6s that renders them looking little more then guard.

GW's stance is that there is no power boost to strength without the Black Carapace.

But, what about SM scouts you ask? All I can say is, "Thats GW for you and SM's are their favorite child."

focusedfire wrote:GW's stance is that there is no power boost to strength without the Black Carapace.

No it's not GW's stance. Andy Hoare (along with a few other GW writers and designers IIRC) was part of the team that wrote the various Dark Heresy supplements, and so I consider them rather canon. In Dark Heresy, common CIVILIAN power armor (which I say is common because it's available to anyone that can afford its egregious price) increases strength by a not so sizable amount (humans, on average, have 35/100 strength, while the power armor adds either +20-- which puts the wearer as a remarkably strong individual). Military-grade power armor is likely at least a little bit higher, and also likely quite more efficient in that it has a power pack that allows it to run indefinitely.

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Redemption Corps.

Graham McNeil is a shoddy writer.

Oh haha, I made another mistake confusing Night Bringer with Soul Hunter. McNeill is awful.

Whaaaaaat? I like McNeill!

A thousand sons is really good. I was hooked after like 4 pages. I'm at about halfway through,and only like one thing has bothered me *I thought "word bearers" were "world bearers"..fail*

Melissia wrote:

focusedfire wrote:GW's stance is that there is no power boost to strength without the Black Carapace.

No it's not GW's stance. Andy Hoare (along with a few other GW writers and designers IIRC) was part of the team that wrote the various Dark Heresy supplements, and so I consider them rather canon. In Dark Heresy, common CIVILIAN power armor (which I say is common because it's available to anyone that can afford its egregious price) increases strength by a not so sizable amount (humans, on average, have 35/100 strength, while the power armor adds either +20-- which puts the wearer as a remarkably strong individual). Military-grade power armor is likely at least a little bit higher, and also likely quite more efficient in that it has a power pack that allows it to run indefinitely.

Not having Dark Heresy myself, I have to wonder:

Are we talking about actual "Powered Armour" or an "Armored Exoskeleton"? The two are considered very similar in terms of theoretical technology, with the only difference being one is "worn" like a second skin, the other requiring a bit more effort on the operator's part to operate.