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Primarch wrote:I must be missing something.


Are 22 people voting that it is perfectly legal to pre-measure your opponents charge range, during your own movement phase? That's what the poll looks like.....




Clay

Because it is.

Viper217 wrote:You will whine because "that's not how we play it back in ______" and it just gets on everyones nerves.

And how is that any different than going somewhere where this is completely unheard of - cheating in some eyes - and they say, well that rule isn't welcome here. Then what? You still whine and say "That's where we play it back in ___" and you're still changing the way you play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:I must be missing something.


Are 22 people voting that it is perfectly legal to pre-measure your opponents charge range, during your own movement phase? That's what the poll looks like.....




Clay

Because it is.

It's legal to measure "charge range" and not "movement" in your movement phase? Awesome, I'm gonna start measuring charge range in every movement phase before I go into my shooting phase.

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:I must be missing something.


Are 22 people voting that it is perfectly legal to pre-measure your opponents charge range, during your own movement phase? That's what the poll looks like.....




Clay

Because it is.

Can you point me to the relevant rules quote that says I can pre-measure my opponents moves/charges? If so that would be helpful.



Clay

It's not legal to directly measure them, but what Dash was doing, where he measures out the movement for one unit, and then changes his mind, is perfectly legal.

If you don't like it, don't play the game.

Or make a "house rule", but don't try and claim it's the rules, because it isn't.

In Short, there is a lot of vitriol in this thread for people who follow the rules, simply because one or two people don't agree about the "spirit" of the rules (whatever that is).

All I can say is, the rules are clear.

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:I must be missing something.


Are 22 people voting that it is perfectly legal to pre-measure your opponents charge range, during your own movement phase? That's what the poll looks like.....




Clay

Because it is.

Can you point me to the relevant rules quote that says I can pre-measure my opponents moves/charges? If so that would be helpful.



Clay

What it says is that you can measure your own movement. If you just happen to measure in a direction that an enemy is in, and you just happen to know their charge range then son, you will know their charge range.

It is completely legal to measure in a 360 arc when moving, unlike when firing you must designate a squad first but then you measure and if you are out then hell you know but guessing how much closer you need to be. But then so does your opponent.

Also the spirit about the game is having fun. If I choose to have fun by winning using all the legal tricks then who are you (direction: People complaining about spirit of the game) to complain?

Gwar! wrote:It's not legal to directly measure them, but what Dash was doing, where he measures out the movement for one unit, and then changes his mind, is perfectly legal.

If you don't like it, don't play the game.

Or make a "house rule", but don't try and claim it's the rules, because it isn't.

Gwar, you weren't there, so you have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about. NONE. You have no idea what Dash was doing, I do, he does. You are now doing nothing more than trolling, because you aren't adding to the rules debate, but blindly defending your friend Dash.

He never measured out movement and changed his mind. He used the rule that allowed him to measure HIS movement, and instead measured MY movement. Please catch up, or have Dash tell you the truth instead of apparently lieing to you about the situation.



Clay

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:It's not legal to directly measure them, but what Dash was doing, where he measures out the movement for one unit, and then changes his mind, is perfectly legal.

If you don't like it, don't play the game.

Or make a "house rule", but don't try and claim it's the rules, because it isn't.

Gwar, you weren't there, so you have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about. NONE. You have no idea what Dash was doing, I do, he does. You are now doing nothing more than trolling, because you aren't adding to the rules debate, but blindly defending your friend Dash.

He never measured out movement and changed his mind. He used the rule that allowed him to measure HIS movement, and instead measured MY movement. Please catch up, or have Dash tell you the truth instead of apparently lieing to you about the situation.

I was unaware of your amazing telepathic abilities and the power to know exactly what Dash was thinking! Yes that is sarcasm.

I am not trolling. All I am saying is that what Dash was doing is 100% supported in the rules. Is it a "dick move" or "Shady"? Some say it is. I personally do not think it is.

syanticraven wrote:

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:I must be missing something.


Are 22 people voting that it is perfectly legal to pre-measure your opponents charge range, during your own movement phase? That's what the poll looks like.....




Clay

Because it is.

Can you point me to the relevant rules quote that says I can pre-measure my opponents moves/charges? If so that would be helpful.



Clay

What it says is that you can measure your own movement. If you just happen to measure in a direction that an enemy is in, and you just happen to know their charge range then son, you will know their charge range.

It is completely legal to measure in a 360 arc when moving, unlike when firing you must designate a squad first but then you measure and if you are out then hell you know but guessing how much closer you need to be. But then so does your opponent.

Also the spirit about the game is having fun. If I choose to have fun by winning using all the legal tricks then who are you (direction: People complaining about spirit of the game) to complain?

The rule states you can measure your distance, not the other guy's movement. That's clear. Holding your tape measure out till you do the math on my movement is against the rules, not even the "spirit" any more, just basically against the rules.


Clay

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:It's not legal to directly measure them, but what Dash was doing, where he measures out the movement for one unit, and then changes his mind, is perfectly legal.

If you don't like it, don't play the game.

Or make a "house rule", but don't try and claim it's the rules, because it isn't.

Gwar, you weren't there, so you have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about. NONE. You have no idea what Dash was doing, I do, he does. You are now doing nothing more than trolling, because you aren't adding to the rules debate, but blindly defending your friend Dash.

He never measured out movement and changed his mind. He used the rule that allowed him to measure HIS movement, and instead measured MY movement. Please catch up, or have Dash tell you the truth instead of apparently lieing to you about the situation.



Clay

You can't blame Gwar for being lied to he is explaining the rules on the situation as he reads it.
And if he still used the measurement from his unit to yours, aslong as it was equal to or under his units total movement then it is completely legal.

syanticraven wrote:

Also the spirit about the game is having fun. If I choose to have fun by winning using all the legal tricks then who are you (direction: People complaining about spirit of the game) to complain?

When your fun starts bearing on the fun of others. It's fun for me to smash your models on the ground! Who are you to complain? It's a game between two people. So many tournament-goers seem to have forgotten that.

Edit: For clarification. I'm not disagreeing that it's legal, so you can stop bringing that up. I know it's legal. I am someone who thinks that the game extends beyond RAW to incorporate a lot of other elements.

Hold up, Dash didn't tell me squat. I have no idea what happened, nor do I actually give two gaks. All I am doing is pointing out that Dash could do what is being described.

Perhaps the actual procedure was a little off, I admit that, but the actual practice of using a vehicles movement to pre-measure is 100% legal and irrefutable, no matter how "shady" you may think it is.

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:It's not legal to directly measure them, but what Dash was doing, where he measures out the movement for one unit, and then changes his mind, is perfectly legal.

If you don't like it, don't play the game.

Or make a "house rule", but don't try and claim it's the rules, because it isn't.

Gwar, you weren't there, so you have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about. NONE. You have no idea what Dash was doing, I do, he does. You are now doing nothing more than trolling, because you aren't adding to the rules debate, but blindly defending your friend Dash.

He never measured out movement and changed his mind. He used the rule that allowed him to measure HIS movement, and instead measured MY movement. Please catch up, or have Dash tell you the truth instead of apparently lieing to you about the situation.

I was unaware of your amazing telepathic abilities and the power to know exactly what Dash was thinking! Yes that is sarcasm.

I am not trolling. All I am saying is that what Dash was doing is 100% supported in the rules. Is it a "dick move" or "Shady"? Some say it is. I personally do not think it is.

Here you go again, clueless to the ACTUAL situation. I didn't have to read his mind Gwar, he told me what he was doing, as he was actually doing it on the table top. Again, get the facts of the situation straight, or stop defending your boy blindly, I tried to be rational about this, but it's going downhill fast dealing with you now. You don't even care what the situation was, only that you need to be on Dash's side to protect him or something. Newsflash, either you haven't asked him, or he has lied to you about what happened. That's about the only thing I can think of that has you defending the right to pre-measure your opponents moves, which was all Dash was doing.

To another point of yours;

I am not directing anything bad at anyone for disagreeing with me, but by saying that cheating is ok, well that's a different story. You are defending cheating, per the rules that YOU quoted, those are the times you can pre-measure, that did not apply to the situation.


Clay

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:It's not legal to directly measure them, but what Dash was doing, where he measures out the movement for one unit, and then changes his mind, is perfectly legal.

If you don't like it, don't play the game.

Or make a "house rule", but don't try and claim it's the rules, because it isn't.

Gwar, you weren't there, so you have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about. NONE. You have no idea what Dash was doing, I do, he does. You are now doing nothing more than trolling, because you aren't adding to the rules debate, but blindly defending your friend Dash.

He never measured out movement and changed his mind. He used the rule that allowed him to measure HIS movement, and instead measured MY movement. Please catch up, or have Dash tell you the truth instead of apparently lieing to you about the situation.

I was unaware of your amazing telepathic abilities and the power to know exactly what Dash was thinking! Yes that is sarcasm.

I am not trolling. All I am saying is that what Dash was doing is 100% supported in the rules. Is it a "dick move" or "Shady"? Some say it is. I personally do not think it is.

Here you go again, clueless to the ACTUAL situation. I didn't have to read his mind Gwar, he told me what he was doing, as he was actually doing it on the table top. Again, get the facts of the situation straight, or stop defending your boy blindly, I tried to be rational about this, but it's going downhill fast dealing with you now. You don't even care what the situation was, only that you need to be on Dash's side to protect him or something. Newsflash, either you haven't asked him, or he has lied to you about what happened. That's about the only thing I can think of that has you defending the right to pre-measure your opponents moves, which was all Dash was doing.

To another point of yours;

I am not directing anything bad at anyone for disagreeing with me, but by saying that cheating is ok, well that's a different story. You are defending cheating, per the rules that YOU quoted, those are the times you can pre-measure, that did not apply to the situation.


Clay

I think Gwar! is saying that measuring your opponent's move and charge range, masked as your own movement, is completely legal and in no way shady. And that's what the other agreeing pollsters are saying as well. I, like you Clay, am sort of blindsided by the WAAC thinking and am just glad that no one around here does it (although I live pretty close to Atlanta and I've played at Giga-Bites before. . .)

Gwar! wrote:Hold up, Dash didn't tell me squat. I have no idea what happened, nor do I actually give two gaks. All I am doing is pointing out that Dash could do what is being described.

Perhaps the actual procedure was a little off, I admit that, but the actual practice of using a vehicles movement to pre-measure is 100% legal and irrefutable, no matter how "shady" you may think it is.

I think reading comprehension is the problem here for you.


Please actually read this post.


I think pre-measuring your own movement is perfectly legal, and in line with the 40k rules as written. I also think using that rule to measure my units movement instead of your own is against the rules, and is indeed what happened here. If he had just been pre-measuring his own movement then I wouldn't have had a problem, but when he did this;


Pulls out tape measure to 24 inches. Place it right next to my Battlewagon, it extends about 4 or so inches past front edge of my wagon. Then he says aloud. Ok, right now I am 19 inches from your wagon, and I know your charge range is 27 inches, then I need to back up around 10-12 inches to make sure you can't charge me.

You tell me where the 40k rules allow you to pre-measure my move/charge range, and I will gladly agree with you.


Your rules quote does not say, you may pre-measure your movement range, and in the process if any enemy is in range, you may also use this time to pre-measure his move/charge range. If it did, then there would be no discussion on this.

By the way, I assumed he talked to you, since you posted above that you know what he did, and it was 100% legal. You then claimed that he "changed" his mind, again, not true. You then said I must be a mind reader to have figured out his intent. Again, not true, he told me.



Clay

Primarch wrote:Ahh, so we are talking about a hypothetical, not the actual event in question?


Right, then I agree, hypothetically a person is legally allowed to measure HIS movement, then change his mind.


Realistically for the event in question, it was not legal, no question about it. So the instances need to be examined when they occur, not just a blanket "all movement pre-measuring is perfectly legal" stance.



Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is my main problem with this.


The rule on pre-measuring that Gwar quotes only mentions measuring YOUR movement. Not your opponents. There is also a rule about not being allowed to pre-measure things. If you put that together you get to this;


If you use the tape measure for ANYTHING other than measuring your own move, then you are breaking said rules. Note, this point is to the relevant discussion, not shooting etc. So if you put the tape measure down, and you "measure" my assault range under the guise of seeing how far you can move, then you are cheating, period. The rules do not allow for this type of measuring.



Clay

I smell someone who is complaining about something perfectly legal, that hurt them in a game.
I agree with Gwar!

puma713 wrote:

syanticraven wrote:

Also the spirit about the game is having fun. If I choose to have fun by winning using all the legal tricks then who are you (direction: People complaining about spirit of the game) to complain?

When your fun starts bearing on the fun of others. It's fun for me to smash your models on the ground! Who are you to complain? It's a game between two people. So many tournament-goers seem to have forgotten that.

Edit: For clarification. I'm not disagreeing that it's legal, so you can stop bringing that up. I know it's legal. I am someone who thinks that the game extends beyond RAW to incorporate a lot of other elements.

That's outwidth the game and illegal to do so, as it is a crime. Id happily return the pleasure.
You have to understand that it's your problem if you don't like your opponents play style, sure everyone can get that dick of a guy that sits their smelling, telling you nothing other then how hes going to stomp all over you ect and sure I find them annoying too. But that's my problem, this guy came here to win and if he is a good player then he might just do that. He will never get a friendly off anyone but in a tournament you will always get they kind of people. Heck, its a tournament not everyone can be your best buddy.

Che-Vito wrote:
I smell someone who is complaining about something perfectly legal, that hurt them in a game.
I agree with Gwar!

Did you even read the batrep? He had a problem with it before it even affected him or the game. It's not like he is coming back and complaining about it now. He had a serious issue with it as soon as Dash laid down his tape measure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

syanticraven wrote:

You have to understand that it's your problem if you don't like your opponents play style, sure everyone can get that dick of a guy that sits their smelling, telling you nothing other then how hes going to stop all over you ect and sure I find them annoying too.

Smelling?

syanticraven wrote:
But that's my problem, this guy came here to win and if he is a good player then he might just do that. He will never get a friendly off anyone but in a tournament you will always get they kind of people.

True, and that's the problem with the tournament scene. Why do you think there are soft scores now? For fun?

syanticraven wrote:
Heck, its a tournament not everyone can be your best buddy.

I'm not your buddy. I'm not your acquaintance at all, actually. I'm your complete stranger.

puma713 wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:
I smell someone who is complaining about something perfectly legal, that hurt them in a game.
I agree with Gwar!

Did you even read the batrep? He had a problem with it before it even affected him or the game. It's not like he is coming back and complainig about it now. He had a serious issue with it as soon as Dash laid down his tape measure.

Also, I never started a thread talking about this. Dash has started 2 threads where HE brought this up. Please stop trolling and pay attention to the thread or stop wasting our time with your posts. If the question is asked, certainly I can come here and defend my position, yes?



Clay

Everyone breathe. Let's keep it civil, folks.

Gwar! wrote:It's not legal to directly measure them, but what Dash was doing, where he measures out the movement for one unit, and then changes his mind, is perfectly legal.

Except that the scenario outlined in the first post of this thread is not 'Measure the vehicle's movement, and then change your mind and move it elsewhere.'

What he is describing is measuring the vehicle's potential movement for the sole purpose of figuring out how far the other vehicle can follow him when he moves in the opposite direction.

And that's not on. Yes, technically legal if you dress it up as checking how far the vehicle can move... but he's freely admitted that the sole purpose for doing it is to pre-measure the other vehicle's movement. Not because he was actually considering moving in that direction.

Ok, so from what I am starting to glean, you are annoyed at the way he did it, rather than him doing it, or is it both?

Had Dash had done it properly, by measuring 24" from his Raider, and then extrapolating the distance from that, then changing his mind and moving it backwards (as he is perfectly entitled to do so), would you be annoyed?

After reading through this heated debate i want to chime in with my two cents regarding attitudes towards people who 'abuse the rules to win' (not literally quoted but seems to be the flavor of this thread)

Many wargamers have played, or at least heard of, Magic: The Gathering. This card game is governed by a myraid of criss-crossing complicated rules with timing involved, turn phases, priority, and then thousands of modifications on the rules based on specific card wordings. In THAT game, when someone succeeds by finding a great combo or just playing the rules well to their advantage every turn, they win, people shake hands, and walk away.

Now we segue to the table-top and WH40K. All of a sudden, because OUR game uses hand-painted miniature models we are expected to be 'hobbyists' instead of 'gamers'. We are expected to play with a loosened sense of things, because after all it's toy soldiers. I do not feel that way. I feel the game is as competitive as it is engrossing. I have spent many, many hours of my past year since i started 40k assembling, painting, and moving miniatures, and I love playing the game. I also love playing by the rules, as they are written, in the BRB. I have some issues with certain codex rules *cough DoM w/ no INV cough* but i can discuss issues like that pre-game with my opponent.

So, back on OT -- The fact that Dash had the mental capacity to calculate a simple subtraction problem when measuring his movement radius (REGARDLESS of his intent to move forward, back, or sideways) does not make him a cheater or shady player. He was being TACTICAL and trying to win, using the RULES to his advantage. I suggest all other players do the same, since the game's framework is the rules themselves. Dark Eldar do not win games by allowing themselves to be assaulted by a mob of boyz, nobz, gaunts, BAs, or anything. They are a darting-flitty-shoot and move sort of army and he was playing them to their strengths. Orks on the other hand need to charge across the board and block off avenues of escape before swarming their opponents and clubbing them through sheer numbers. Do not be surprised that a DE player is doing all he can to avoid CC, do not whine about but rather use your strengths and chase him down for another turn until there is nowhere to run.

I can understand being upset at being out-played, but why (edit) contribute to an (end edit) entire thread to try to get people on your side about it (when clearly looking at the poll they are not)?

/end rant-nerdrage-etc

insaniak wrote:And that's not on. Yes, technically legal if you dress it up as checking how far the vehicle can move... but he's freely admitted that the sole purpose for doing it is to pre-measure the other vehicle's movement. Not because he was actually considering moving in that direction.

Ok, I think I get it now.

So, if Dash had not stated his intent out loud, it would be a-ok? (From a "Shady/not shady" point of view. From a technical view you can state whatever you want, the rules still allow you to change your mind).

You can, but if someone used there movement measuring to figure out my charge distance, I'd have no problem with that since its technically legal. Of course I wouldn't know exactly how it went for you, but if its like that, it seems ok.

puma713 wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:
I smell someone who is complaining about something perfectly legal, that hurt them in a game.
I agree with Gwar!

Did you even read the batrep? He had a problem with it before it even affected him or the game. It's not like he is coming back and complaining about it now. He had a serious issue with it as soon as Dash laid down his tape measure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

syanticraven wrote:

You have to understand that it's your problem if you don't like your opponents play style, sure everyone can get that dick of a guy that sits their smelling, telling you nothing other then how hes going to stop all over you ect and sure I find them annoying too.

Smelling?

syanticraven wrote:
But that's my problem, this guy came here to win and if he is a good player then he might just do that. He will never get a friendly off anyone but in a tournament you will always get they kind of people.

True, and that's the problem with the tournament scene. Why do you think there are soft scores now? For fun?

syanticraven wrote:
Heck, its a tournament not everyone can be your best buddy.

I'm not your buddy. I'm not your acquaintance at all, actually. I'm your complete stranger.

Yeah smelling, have you never came across someone who actually had bad hygiene, or where you thinking I meant smiling? Because people are allowed to smile.
Yes for fun, that is exactly why they where created. If It wasn't fun no one would care.
I never said you where my buddy. I said not everyone at a tournament can be. And I didn't mean it in a literal sense either.

tetrisphreak wrote:After reading through this heated debate i want to chime in with my two cents regarding attitudes towards people who 'abuse the rules to win' (not literally quoted but seems to be the flavor of this thread)

Many wargamers have played, or at least heard of, Magic: The Gathering. This card game is governed by a myraid of criss-crossing complicated rules with timing involved, turn phases, priority, and then thousands of modifications on the rules based on specific card wordings. In THAT game, when someone succeeds by finding a great combo or just playing the rules well to their advantage every turn, they win, people shake hands, and walk away.

Now we segue to the table-top and WH40K. All of a sudden, because OUR game uses hand-painted miniature models we are expected to be 'hobbyists' instead of 'gamers'. We are expected to play with a loosened sense of things, because after all it's toy soldiers. I do not feel that way. I feel the game is as competitive as it is engrossing. I have spent many, many hours of my past year since i started 40k assembling, painting, and moving miniatures, and I love playing the game. I also love playing by the rules, as they are written, in the BRB. I have some issues with certain codex rules *cough DoM w/ no INV cough* but i can discuss issues like that pre-game with my opponent.

So, back on OT -- The fact that Dash had the mental capacity to calculate a simple subtraction problem when measuring his movement radius (REGARDLESS of his intent to move forward, back, or sideways) does not make him a cheater or shady player. He was being TACTICAL and trying to win, using the RULES to his advantage. I suggest all other players do the same, since the game's framework is the rules themselves. Dark Eldar do not win games by allowing themselves to be assaulted by a mob of boyz, nobz, gaunts, BAs, or anything. They are a darting-flitty-shoot and move sort of army and he was playing them to their strengths. Orks on the other hand need to charge across the board and block off avenues of escape before swarming their opponents and clubbing them through sheer numbers. Do not be surprised that a DE player is doing all he can to avoid CC, do not whine about but rather use your strengths and chase him down for another turn until there is nowhere to run.

I can understand being upset at being out-played, but why (edit) contribute to an (end edit) entire thread to try to get people on your side about it (when clearly looking at the poll they are not)?

/end rant-nerdrage-etc

Hmm, interesting point of view. Again, don't accuse me of coming here and being a whiny bitch, Dash started this thread, not I. I told him not to even because I knew it would blow up. However, when the facts are not listed properly and I was the only other guy there, shouldn't I say something?

Secondly, I still havent seen any rules that specifically allow you to pre-measure my stuff. I have seen rules that dis-allow this however. Can you provide a page number, if so, then I will gladly admit I am wrong and move on.


Clay

tetrisphreak wrote:

I can understand being upset at being out-played, but why (edit) contribute to an (end edit) entire thread to try to get people on your side about it (when clearly looking at the poll they are not)?

/end rant-nerdrage-etc

Again, Primarch didn't start the thread, Dash did. Secondly, as we've pointed out ad nauseum, by applying one rule, he broke another. So that's okay? That is what I was getting at with the shooting rules, even though the thread doesn't apply to shooting. I can use one rule to measure my bolters to your devastators to make sure that my Land Raider has enough range to get my guys into assault with another unit entirely, but then I've broken a rule by measuring my charge range in the movement phase.

@Gwar!: I know your situation wasn't directed at me, but yes, I'd have a much easier time swallowing it if he was using his own mental capacity to extrapolate the movement rather than brazenly placing the tape measure at the base of the battlewagon and saying, "Let's see, I know you can't move this far, so where do I have to be so you can't assault me?"

tetrisphreak wrote:Now we segue to the table-top and WH40K. All of a sudden, because OUR game uses hand-painted miniature models we are expected to be 'hobbyists' instead of 'gamers'. We are expected to play with a loosened sense of things, because after all it's toy soldiers.

That's not actually quite accurate. The reason for the difference in play style between Magic and 40K is nothing to do with the miniatures... it's to do with the fact that Magic is a game designed specifically for competitive play, while 40K is designed as a game of toy soldiers for a bit of light-hearted fun. The 40K ruleset has never been intended to be used for tournament play.

@ Primarch

Model A is on the table an unknown distance from model B. I own model A, you own Model B.

I measure model A's movement range (NO further) in a 360 degree arc, noting where the tape measure may or may not contact your model (model B) I note the distance in my head.

I then Move, as allowed by the rules, a certain distance exactly perpendicular to model B's location. No fouls, simply gameplay tactics. In the 40,000'th century, i'm sure vehicles have rangefinders. We have them now, on golf courses!

I will submit this: Had he placed the tape measure and measured from model B (yours) towards model A (mine) that is indeed illegal, because he is measuring FROM the incorrect unit. Was his tape measure starting from his model or yours?

I will retract and delete my rant if i was wrong.

Edit; @ insaniak -- there is nothing at all wrong with that. Not at all. I just have a competitive heart and prefer to play that way in all my hobbies/games i participate in. You should see me play tetris, haha. *end edit*

syanticraven wrote:
Yes for fun, that is exactly why they where created. If It wasn't fun no one would care.

Really? Just so the guy that gets his teeth kicked in can say he had fun because he got a 24 in Sportsmanship and a 21 in Painting? Or maybe it was to level the playing field for those that don't choose to be WAAC players. I'm not saying that I agree with soft scores. I actually prefer a tournament without them, but they weren't created so TO's could have something else to judge.

insaniak wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:Now we segue to the table-top and WH40K. All of a sudden, because OUR game uses hand-painted miniature models we are expected to be 'hobbyists' instead of 'gamers'. We are expected to play with a loosened sense of things, because after all it's toy soldiers.

That's not actually quite accurate. The reason for the difference in play style between Magic and 40K is nothing to do with the miniatures... it's to do with the fact that Magic is a game designed specifically for competitive play, while 40K is designed as a game of toy soldiers for a bit of light-hearted fun. The 40K ruleset has never been intended to be used for tournament play.

Have you seen the early sets? Alpha, Beta, Unlimited, Revised etc. If that was designed for competitive play then I'm the Queen of Iceland. Though to be fair, Magic HAS morphed into a more competitive game over the years, and the tighter rules reflect that. Frankly I think 40k would do well to go down the same route, but that's for another time and place.