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puma713 wrote:Legally, yes you can do what you're trying to say. Is it frowned upon? I can't speak for everyone, but I know some folks around here would have some major problems with it.

You have a Infantry Platoon right next to your Leman Russ Executioner. Your opponent's unit looks a bit out of range for the Executioner, but there are other choice targets. Well, let's see if that Executioner is out of range. I fire my Infantry Platoon's lasguns at your enemy unit (knowing full well that it is well beyond 12" away). I extend my tape measure and find that your unit is 34" away from my unit. Perfect. I line up my Executioner because I know that I am in range now, whereas I didn't before.

And I guess my point is that if this is fine and dandy, if shady, then what is the difference between the two situations? Why does one violate the spirit of the rules and the other does not, when this one is far, far more abusable than the first?

This thread is silly. According to RAW it's completely legal to pre-measure movement, and everyone here accepts that, but suddenly it's illegal to glean information out of that measurement?

According to your logic, measuring from anything to anything is illegal because when you calculate the distance between point A and point B, you also magically discover the distance between point B and point A. And that must be illegal, because you don't control point B!

Here's another situation: I have a tactical squad and a Land Raider right next to eachother. In front of these two units is a unit of Berserkers. In my shooting phase I decide to shoot a single lascannon at the Berserkers, and I note that during measurement that the Berserkers are 11" away. I then decide to Run my tactical squad away from the Berserkers so they are no longer within assault range.

According to your logic, what has just transpired above is illegal; because in measuring the distance between the Lascannon Sponson and the Berserkers I also somehow "discovered" their charge range and took action accordingly.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

puma713 wrote:Legally, yes you can do what you're trying to say. Is it frowned upon? I can't speak for everyone, but I know some folks around here would have some major problems with it.

You have a Infantry Platoon right next to your Leman Russ Executioner. Your opponent's unit looks a bit out of range for the Executioner, but there are other choice targets. Well, let's see if that Executioner is out of range. I fire my Infantry Platoon's lasguns at your enemy unit (knowing full well that it is well beyond 12" away). I extend my tape measure and find that your unit is 34" away from my unit. Perfect. I line up my Executioner because I know that I am in range now, whereas I didn't before.

And I guess my point is that if this is fine and dandy, if shady, then what is the difference between the two situations? Why does one violate the spirit of the rules and the other does not, when this one is far, far more abusable than the first?

I wasn't saying that it was. I think they're equally as shady. If you need to do that to win, then I'm sorry. I know lots and lots of great players who don't do it and still take top places.

I dont like the idea of measuring something w/ say.. 24'' range and measuring 40'' aways, to me PERSONALLY (not raw) is wrong. Now if you put the tape at 24'' and measure to a target, and happen to now be able to tell exactly how far forward another of your units is and roughly how short you were to the target you were shooting at.. you can fire a forward target and know you have that additional range is fine..

movement, put the tape to max range, measure a bubble around your unit moving.. take note of what ever you want in that bubble, shady? no. Legal? yes. If someone tried to ding me or deny me this id think they were just being a cry baby. What im supposed to magically close my eyes when i pass near your unit? thats just dumb.

unbeliever87 wrote:This thread is silly. According to RAW it's completely legal to pre-measure movement, and everyone here accepts that, but suddenly it's illegal to glean information out of that measurement?

According to your logic, measuring from anything to anything is illegal because when you calculate the distance between point A and point B, you also magically discover the distance between point B and point A. And that must be illegal, because you don't control point B!

Here's another situation: I have a tactical squad and a Land Raider right next to eachother. In front of these two units is a unit of Berserkers. In my shooting phase I decide to shoot a single lascannon at the Berserkers, and I note that during measurement that the Berserkers are 11" away. I then decide to Run my tactical squad away from the Berserkers so they are no longer within assault range.

According to your logic, what has just transpired above is illegal; because in measuring the distance between the Lascannon Sponson and the Berserkers I also somehow "discovered" their charge range and took action accordingly.

The difference, as its been pointed out in this thread, is intent. You didn't intend to find out that information, you simply gleaned it from your shooting. What happened with Dash and Primarch was the opposite. Dash measured with the intent to find out how far his opponent could move and charge. He even told his opponent this.

Legal: Yes. Disguised as measuring your movement.

Against the spirit of the rules: Maybe. That's what the poll is for.

unbeliever87 wrote:This thread is silly. According to RAW it's completely legal to pre-measure movement, and everyone here accepts that, but suddenly it's illegal to glean information out of that measurement?

That's not what people are saying.

It's perfectly acceptable to glean whatever information comes along with legal measurement.

What people are saying in this thread is that measuring something that the rules don't allow you to measure and dressing up that action as doing something completely different in order to get around that restriction is not acceptable.

I thought of another situation where this is applicable.

I have a line of raiders with multiple targets available at different ranges. One of those targets is most important to me, but potentially out of range of several vehicles. My choices:

1. Declare a target with one of my lances in range of a secondary target, and hope that I'm in range of the primary.

2. Pick a unit in the rear that is out of range of everything, but in the line of the raiders I want to be able to shoot....measuring range tells me how far it is from the raider up front to the primary target.

Is the next step to outlaw geometric reasoning as a form of pre-measuring? After all, if you know the distance to enough landmarks on the table and can do the math fast enough, you can figure out the distances without needing to get out a tape measure.

You're allowed to measure the vehicles movement, and explicitly allowed by the rules to measure in one direction and then move in a completely different direction. Maybe, this is to allow someone to avoid going in one direction, ending up horribly short of an objective and getting stuck in a terrible position by letting that unit go somewhere else. Given that it would be perfectly allowable to measure to a spot two or three inches to the right of the vehicle, go "Oh, that would be a bad spot", and then measure in the complete opposite direction, I don't see any reasonable grounds to make the distinction.

Then again, reading through the first six pages of this thread, I'm half expecting to see an error message when I hit submit.

insaniak wrote:

unbeliever87 wrote:This thread is silly. According to RAW it's completely legal to pre-measure movement, and everyone here accepts that, but suddenly it's illegal to glean information out of that measurement?

That's not what people are saying.

It's perfectly acceptable to glean whatever information comes along with legal measurement.

What people are saying in this thread is that measuring something that the rules don't allow you to measure and dressing up that action as doing something completely different in order to get around that restriction is not acceptable.

But those are one and the same thing. Measuring 24" out from a raider is a legal measurement. Gleaning that a battlewagon is 19" away along that 24" path is gleaned from the legal measurement. Intending to find out in the first place how far away the battlewagon is can be gleaned through the use of a legal measurement.

So...how old are all of the people involved in this?

If you tell me that you are all 18+ years of age, I may just have to give up on humanity.
Tourny play is just something that isn't terribly interesting to me for reasons such as this.

Legal but... pushing the rules. I dunno. It was made under a perfectly legal measurement, but it's definitely taking advantage of RAW. If I was playing, I wouldn't let my opponent do it, but if I don't catch it, it's not like he cheated. I wouldn't do it. I just gauge about how wide my hips/forearms/hands are, walk around the table and use that to judge from a noncheaty distance. Legal, and less shady.

Personally, unless you are actually intending on making such a move, I wouldn't do it. RAI is rules as INTENDED for a reason. Know what they mean, not what they say, amiright?

Keep up the Batreps though Dash. THey're good stuff. And Primarch? It was kinda lame, but that's no reason to cool a friendship. Warhammer is a board game after all... hopefully the pair of you can fix this.

Che-Vito wrote:So...how old are all of the people involved in this?

If you tell me that you are all 18+ years of age, I may just have to give up on humanity.
Tourny play is just something that isn't terribly interesting to me for reasons such as this.

Tell me, do you denigrate professional sports for this same reason?

The olympics?

Chess?

Anything else which has rules and is played in a competitive setting?

Dashofpepper wrote:I thought of another situation where this is applicable.

I have a line of raiders with multiple targets available at different ranges. One of those targets is most important to me, but potentially out of range of several vehicles. My choices:

1. Declare a target with one of my lances in range of a secondary target, and hope that I'm in range of the primary.

2. Pick a unit in the rear that is out of range of everything, but in the line of the raiders I want to be able to shoot....measuring range tells me how far it is from the raider up front to the primary target.

And just as shady.

Using something that is obviously well out of range to determine something that may be in range is more shady than the actual topic, imo. It's no different than using laspistols to measure the range of an earthshaker cannon. Let's see. . .I wanna fire my laspistols at that unit that seems a bit far away. Oooh, 119". Just out of range. But my basilisk can reach!

"Corporal! Fire on that daemon prince!"

"But, sir, he's so far away. . .I can't even see him!"

"It's okay. Fire anyway. I want to see if my basilisks can reach him!"

o.O

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:So...how old are all of the people involved in this?

If you tell me that you are all 18+ years of age, I may just have to give up on humanity.
Tourny play is just something that isn't terribly interesting to me for reasons such as this.

Tell me, do you denigrate professional sports for this same reason?

The olympics?

Chess?

Anything else which has rules and is played in a competitive setting?

When was the last time that the Olympics consistently had unclear rules, in a variety of situations?
Not in our lifetime.

Che-Vito wrote:When was the last time that the Olympics consistently had unclear rules, in a variety of situations?
Not in our lifetime.

I dunno, for my money soccer has rules that can be interpreted a number of different ways depending on where you're standing, and it's included.

@primarch

While i'll agree that it's not something I'd do it's something that's completely legit. You are saying that the intent behind a measurement (when the measurement itself is legal) can make the measurement cheating. It's not cheating. He can move anywhere within 24" and so can measure it. I wouldn't have thought a thing of it to be honest since I would think he might be planting his vehicle in front of my BW to keep it from moving on a 3+. Now I realize he told you what he was doing and why. But to be honest I still don't see a problem with it.

Like Gwar has pointed out your upset about the method it seems. And are mistaking the method for cheating. Dash is a very rules oriented person and he and I have had some "discussions" about rule interpretations before which have been just shy of arguements if only because we didn't start yelling . And RAW vs. RAI.

And sadly the more I read this the more I'm coming down on the perfectly legit side. To be honest I know i've declared shooting with some of my units to see about how far out of range I am. Granted I only measure to the range of the gun but because my intent is to see if I should move 12" next turn or just 6" and shoot according to you I'd be cheating.

Basically I didn't even think of this as an issue and probably wouldn't if someone didn't explain to me what they were doing and why. then I'd probably get mildly pissy (I'm human and just got played ) but I'd accept that it's legal. In fact I don't think a lot of people even think about it to be honest.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:When was the last time that the Olympics consistently had unclear rules, in a variety of situations?
Not in our lifetime.

I dunno, for my money soccer has rules that can be interpreted a number of different ways depending on where you're standing, and it's included.

Part of why I love Curling. It's a sport that has rules, and penalties. Breaking the rules offers absolutely no gain to those breaking it. (thinking of particular basketball strategies that revolve around fouling on purpose.)

On-topic: My Inquisitorial Stormtroopers can pre-measure before deciding to shoot. In fact, the Targetter is designed so that you can see if your unit is with 24". Odd, no?

Primarch wrote:

Catachan_Devil wrote:it is legal to pre measure a units maximum movement from its base in any direction and decide to move how ever he wishes - if he uses that information obtained to protect himself it is completely legal (information is power in battle)

So the rules that say it's not legal to pre-measure my movement are to be ignored? Are they going to put this in the INAT? I wonder how many rules I can break because there is another rule in the book?

That's what you are all asking to happen here.


Rule 1- You are allowed to pre-measure your own stuff.
Rule 2- You are NOT allowed to pre-measure your opponents stuff.


Oh, disregard rule number 2, because rule number 1 exists? Really?


Clay

The rules say that in his movement faze he may measure 24" around his model, though it is stated that this is to determine where his model can go once this information has been obtained he may do with it what he will. That includes estimating how close your are, or if you're within 24" of him measuring exactly how close you are. So long as he measured from his own model and his tape measure was extended to 24" or under he was legal no matter what he said or thought. As he did not measure from your model to obtain this information and obtained it as a by product of measuring for the purposes of his own movement it is 100% legal no matter how you may screech otherwise.

In short, you're assuming, perhaps correctly, that this entirely legal move was done to obtain information on what your model may or may not be able to do. While his words may have stated this fact, the rules make it legal as they way he obtained his information is well within the rules. To whine about how unfair it is shows you as a poor sport and a weak player. Next time come to the table better prepared and use the rules to the fullest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

puma713 wrote:

unbeliever87 wrote:This thread is silly. According to RAW it's completely legal to pre-measure movement, and everyone here accepts that, but suddenly it's illegal to glean information out of that measurement?

According to your logic, measuring from anything to anything is illegal because when you calculate the distance between point A and point B, you also magically discover the distance between point B and point A. And that must be illegal, because you don't control point B!

Here's another situation: I have a tactical squad and a Land Raider right next to eachother. In front of these two units is a unit of Berserkers. In my shooting phase I decide to shoot a single lascannon at the Berserkers, and I note that during measurement that the Berserkers are 11" away. I then decide to Run my tactical squad away from the Berserkers so they are no longer within assault range.

According to your logic, what has just transpired above is illegal; because in measuring the distance between the Lascannon Sponson and the Berserkers I also somehow "discovered" their charge range and took action accordingly.

The difference, as its been pointed out in this thread, is intent. You didn't intend to find out that information, you simply gleaned it from your shooting. What happened with Dash and Primarch was the opposite. Dash measured with the intent to find out how far his opponent could move and charge. He even told his opponent this.

Legal: Yes. Disguised as measuring your movement.

Against the spirit of the rules: Maybe. That's what the poll is for.

Intent can never make something cheating unless the rules specifically cover intent and how to determine it. Thus nothing Dash said or thought could have made what he did illegal and I would play him a game and use and allow such a thing to be used without issue. That some are immature enough to whine when somebody plays by the rules shows how emotionally invested they are in a game of plastic men. They are hurt and take it as a personal attack, the other person was simply playing by the rules of the game with intent to win, after all few play games and enter tournaments with the intent to lose.

The only illegal thing Dash did was be open about his motives.

What's more a couple of people keep telling us that they 'know' how the 'top players' of an area never do this.
One) Reading minds is a really nice trick can you teach me?
Two) Seriously, Pythagorean theorem anyone? (as has been mentioned many times) second One knows the distances between a set of three points on the board One know most of the measurements elsewhere too, many peoples 'Bionic Eye' very in accuracy but I think it's rare to be out by more than 2' in the worst of cases for most people.... Dammit I was sure there was a poll about eyes before.

Dashofpepper wrote:I thought of another situation where this is applicable.

I have a line of raiders with multiple targets available at different ranges. One of those targets is most important to me, but potentially out of range of several vehicles. My choices:

1. Declare a target with one of my lances in range of a secondary target, and hope that I'm in range of the primary.

2. Pick a unit in the rear that is out of range of everything, but in the line of the raiders I want to be able to shoot....measuring range tells me how far it is from the raider up front to the primary target.

Legal, and less shady. Like... range-finding with artillery.

Che-Vito wrote:So...how old are all of the people involved in this?

If you tell me that you are all 18+ years of age, I may just have to give up on humanity.
Tourny play is just something that isn't terribly interesting to me for reasons such as this.

Quit trolling!

Norade wrote:

Primarch wrote:

Catachan_Devil wrote:it is legal to pre measure a units maximum movement from its base in any direction and decide to move how ever he wishes - if he uses that information obtained to protect himself it is completely legal (information is power in battle)

So the rules that say it's not legal to pre-measure my movement are to be ignored? Are they going to put this in the INAT? I wonder how many rules I can break because there is another rule in the book?

That's what you are all asking to happen here.


Rule 1- You are allowed to pre-measure your own stuff.
Rule 2- You are NOT allowed to pre-measure your opponents stuff.


Oh, disregard rule number 2, because rule number 1 exists? Really?


Clay

The rules say that in his movement faze he may measure 24" around his model, though it is stated that this is to determine where his model can go once this information has been obtained he may do with it what he will. That includes estimating how close your are, or if you're within 24" of him measuring exactly how close you are. So long as he measured from his own model and his tape measure was extended to 24" or under he was legal no matter what he said or thought. As he did not measure from your model to obtain this information and obtained it as a by product of measuring for the purposes of his own movement it is 100% legal no matter how you may screech otherwise.

In short, you're assuming, perhaps correctly, that this entirely legal move was done to obtain information on what your model may or may not be able to do. While his words may have stated this fact, the rules make it legal as they way he obtained his information is well within the rules. To whine about how unfair it is shows you as a poor sport and a weak player. Next time come to the table better prepared and use the rules to the fullest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

puma713 wrote:

unbeliever87 wrote:This thread is silly. According to RAW it's completely legal to pre-measure movement, and everyone here accepts that, but suddenly it's illegal to glean information out of that measurement?

According to your logic, measuring from anything to anything is illegal because when you calculate the distance between point A and point B, you also magically discover the distance between point B and point A. And that must be illegal, because you don't control point B!

Here's another situation: I have a tactical squad and a Land Raider right next to eachother. In front of these two units is a unit of Berserkers. In my shooting phase I decide to shoot a single lascannon at the Berserkers, and I note that during measurement that the Berserkers are 11" away. I then decide to Run my tactical squad away from the Berserkers so they are no longer within assault range.

According to your logic, what has just transpired above is illegal; because in measuring the distance between the Lascannon Sponson and the Berserkers I also somehow "discovered" their charge range and took action accordingly.

The difference, as its been pointed out in this thread, is intent. You didn't intend to find out that information, you simply gleaned it from your shooting. What happened with Dash and Primarch was the opposite. Dash measured with the intent to find out how far his opponent could move and charge. He even told his opponent this.

Legal: Yes. Disguised as measuring your movement.

Against the spirit of the rules: Maybe. That's what the poll is for.

Intent can never make something cheating unless the rules specifically cover intent and how to determine it. Thus nothing Dash said or thought could have made what he did illegal and I would play him a game and use and allow such a thing to be used without issue. That some are immature enough to whine when somebody plays by the rules shows how emotionally invested they are in a game of plastic men. They are hurt and take it as a personal attack, the other person was simply playing by the rules of the game with intent to win, after all few play games and enter tournaments with the intent to lose.

Apparently reading comprehension for most of you is just too hard.

The rules also say you cannot pre-measure the other guy's movement/charge. If you put a tape measure on the table and use it explicitly to measure my movement, which is what happened here, then you are breaking that rule.

As to your commentary on being a weak/whiny player. Learn to read. I never brought any of this up, I am responding to Dash's post. Learn to not be weak at reading comprehension, and next time come to the forums better prepared to argue an actual point.


Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Clearly quite a few of you either can't read, or choose not to. The facts are that you are not allowed by rule to pre-measure your opponents move/charge range. No amount of "sneaky, tactical" or whatever you want to call it BS, changes that fact.

The only rule that allows you to pre-measure tells you exactly what the conditions are, and makes NO mention of pre-measuring your opponent being allowed. I think the wording is pretty clear.

If you are measuring only your possible movement with the intent of possibly moving your vehicle in x direction, then fine. If you put the tape measure down with absolutely no intention of moving, but instead you are using that measurement SOLELY for checking your opponents move/charge range, then BY RAW, you are cheating.

I love how the RAW people are only RAW people when it suits them.


Clay

Primarch wrote:

Norade wrote:

Primarch wrote:

Catachan_Devil wrote:it is legal to pre measure a units maximum movement from its base in any direction and decide to move how ever he wishes - if he uses that information obtained to protect himself it is completely legal (information is power in battle)

So the rules that say it's not legal to pre-measure my movement are to be ignored? Are they going to put this in the INAT? I wonder how many rules I can break because there is another rule in the book?

That's what you are all asking to happen here.


Rule 1- You are allowed to pre-measure your own stuff.
Rule 2- You are NOT allowed to pre-measure your opponents stuff.


Oh, disregard rule number 2, because rule number 1 exists? Really?


Clay

The rules say that in his movement faze he may measure 24" around his model, though it is stated that this is to determine where his model can go once this information has been obtained he may do with it what he will. That includes estimating how close your are, or if you're within 24" of him measuring exactly how close you are. So long as he measured from his own model and his tape measure was extended to 24" or under he was legal no matter what he said or thought. As he did not measure from your model to obtain this information and obtained it as a by product of measuring for the purposes of his own movement it is 100% legal no matter how you may screech otherwise.

In short, you're assuming, perhaps correctly, that this entirely legal move was done to obtain information on what your model may or may not be able to do. While his words may have stated this fact, the rules make it legal as they way he obtained his information is well within the rules. To whine about how unfair it is shows you as a poor sport and a weak player. Next time come to the table better prepared and use the rules to the fullest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

puma713 wrote:

unbeliever87 wrote:This thread is silly. According to RAW it's completely legal to pre-measure movement, and everyone here accepts that, but suddenly it's illegal to glean information out of that measurement?

According to your logic, measuring from anything to anything is illegal because when you calculate the distance between point A and point B, you also magically discover the distance between point B and point A. And that must be illegal, because you don't control point B!

Here's another situation: I have a tactical squad and a Land Raider right next to eachother. In front of these two units is a unit of Berserkers. In my shooting phase I decide to shoot a single lascannon at the Berserkers, and I note that during measurement that the Berserkers are 11" away. I then decide to Run my tactical squad away from the Berserkers so they are no longer within assault range.

According to your logic, what has just transpired above is illegal; because in measuring the distance between the Lascannon Sponson and the Berserkers I also somehow "discovered" their charge range and took action accordingly.

The difference, as its been pointed out in this thread, is intent. You didn't intend to find out that information, you simply gleaned it from your shooting. What happened with Dash and Primarch was the opposite. Dash measured with the intent to find out how far his opponent could move and charge. He even told his opponent this.

Legal: Yes. Disguised as measuring your movement.

Against the spirit of the rules: Maybe. That's what the poll is for.

Intent can never make something cheating unless the rules specifically cover intent and how to determine it. Thus nothing Dash said or thought could have made what he did illegal and I would play him a game and use and allow such a thing to be used without issue. That some are immature enough to whine when somebody plays by the rules shows how emotionally invested they are in a game of plastic men. They are hurt and take it as a personal attack, the other person was simply playing by the rules of the game with intent to win, after all few play games and enter tournaments with the intent to lose.

Apparently reading comprehension for most of you is just too hard.

The rules also say you cannot pre-measure the other guy's movement/charge. If you put a tape measure on the table and use it explicitly to measure my movement, which is what happened here, then you are breaking that rule.

As to your commentary on being a weak/whiny player. Learn to read. I never brought any of this up, I am responding to Dash's post. Learn to not be weak at reading comprehension, and next time come to the forums better prepared to argue an actual point.


Clay

How do you propose he measure to or from anything that passes over your vehicle then smart guy? Any measuring he does that passes that close will show how far from him you are, he already knows how far you can move, so he isn't measuring your movement. After all how can he measure something you haven't done yet? After all for all he knows you could move sideways or go backwards, this applies to everybody who isn't a mind reader like you must be to magically know everybody's intent all the time.

On reading comprehension you are the one who fails. Rules pertaining to what he can measure that happen to overlap rules about what he can't measure over ride those rules. Thus no matter what his stated intention is he was allowed to measure 24" from his raider as he could use to to measure movement if he so chose. If he happens to find out how far away your vehicle is and uses that info to his advantage that is a bonus. Unless you can show some way that he can still measure from his model out to 24" and all points in between without also learning how far away your model is you have no point.

Lastly, you come off as whiny because of how you repeat the same wrong things over and over again and attack Dash for playing by the rules. You could have said one thing and left instead of crying over how Dash butthurt you and beat you at a tourney using perfectly legal means. He tried to be the bigger man, you admitted you're a pushover and gave him everything and now this must be your petty revenge.

Primarch wrote:Clearly quite a few of you either can't read, or choose not to. The facts are that you are not allowed by rule to pre-measure your opponents move/charge range. No amount of "sneaky, tactical" or whatever you want to call it BS, changes that fact.

The only rule that allows you to pre-measure tells you exactly what the conditions are, and makes NO mention of pre-measuring your opponent being allowed. I think the wording is pretty clear.

If you are measuring only your possible movement with the intent of possibly moving your vehicle in x direction, then fine. If you put the tape measure down with absolutely no intention of moving, but instead you are using that measurement SOLELY for checking your opponents move/charge range, then BY RAW, you are cheating.

I love how the RAW people are only RAW people when it suits them.


Clay

It isn't pre-measuring you fool, he is measuring potential places he can move, while he might also happen to learn where you can move that is entirely secondary. As far as intent = cheating, please show where the rule say that you have to 100% intend to move there before you measure where your vehicle can potentially go. Afterall that measurement certainly had an effect on where he moved to thus by RAW he was measuring to determine where he was going to go, he didn't measure from anything not his own model, or extend the tape beyond 24" thus he was in the clear. Is there any clearer way I can say this?

This thread is closed while it is reviewed to see if suspensions are warranted.

EDIT. This thread is now being re-opened. Multiple warnings and suspensions have been given out. Flaming posts after this public warning to all will be assumed to be direct requests for 3 day suspensions from the poster to this moderator. If you post such and then see this warning you have the option of editing the post yourself or reporting and request that a mod delete the post.

Dear Clay,

In summary, you are seem upset because he said, "I am premeasuring your charge range", while legally measuring range for a legal reason. Had he kept his mouth shut about it, it probably wouldn't have even come up.

That said, he didn't violate any rules by measuring his own range, and saying he was checking yours. He didn't use his tape measure in a way unallowed by the rules, nor move illegally.

If you feel that he violated the spirit of the rules, speak to him and the TO, and just ignore the flame war. That said, you have gotten involved, and have given a strong impression of someone that is simply upset that they lost. If you don't want to give that impression, than take the high road.

-Che

I would like to add this entire scenario occurred at a tournament, not in a pick-up game.

While the venue might not have changed either player's tactics, I would wager that it would definitely have changed the overall mood of the game, as well as lessened the blow of losing (or the stress of trying to win so desperately).

I do remain in the camp that measuring the entire movement 'bubble' of your own unit is legal, and that using that information to process exactly where you need to place said unit for certain events to occur (or not occur, as in this case) is also legal and a sign of foresight and planning.

*edit* also since enemy vehicles and models count as impassible, the 'bubble' would effectively change shape to avoid these models and thus you would have your model-to-model distances legally measured as well. The mental math required for 'charge range' is just from knowing an opponent's list well. *end edit*

Clay actually had some good points... They just weren't presented in a very constructive manner.

His basic idea that the rules specifically say that pre-measuring range for shooting and assaults are right there in the rules is true. Using your movement measurement to find a way to do this in a "legal" way is a pretty shady thing to do.

He was also right to say that any amount of rationalization doesn't make it an okay thing to do.

Monster Rain wrote:Clay actually had some good points... They just weren't presented in a very constructive manner.

His basic idea that the rules specifically say that pre-measuring range for shooting and assaults are right there in the rules is true. Using your movement measurement to find a way to do this in a "legal" way is a pretty shady thing to do.

He was also right to say that any amount of rationalization doesn't make it an okay thing to do.

Agreed. By using one rule, you break another. Why break one rule when you could avoid it altogether and break none? Estimate your opponent's move and charge range and do your best to get outside of it. Err on the side of caution instead of measuring your opponent's movement and charge range to allow no room for error.

For those that are against the manner or intent of the measurement allowed by the rules, then how do you purpose that such measurements are done so that they aren't "cheating"?

Don't measure from your unit to your opponent's unit.

Pretty simple, really.

Monster Rain wrote:Don't measure from your unit to your opponent's unit.

Pretty simple, really.

So if I have a fast skimmer that can move 24" and my opponent has a vehicle of theirs say 12" away from my skimmer, I cannot move anywhere past their vehicle because I cannot measure to said space because to do so would allow me to measure to said opponent's vehicle? That's denying quite a bit of space where I could potentially move, but now cannot because to do so would require some form of measurement involving my skimmer, the space I want to possibly move to and my opponent's vehicle which is in the direct line I may want to move. That doesn't seem right to me.