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Gwar! wrote:So, if Dash had not stated his intent out loud, it would be a-ok?

Whether or not he stated his intentions out loud has no bearing on what those intentions were.

Here is where you RAW guys really need to think about things.


The rule allows you to pre-measure your own movement. Not my movement, not my charge range. So, doing the math in your head, or out loud, is still you using your tape measure to measure my movement/charge range during your turn. By straight RAW, how is this legal? Note, I don't think you can stop this sort of thing, but when you do it blatantly, you certainly aren't following the RAW.



Clay

insaniak wrote:

Gwar! wrote:So, if Dash had not stated his intent out loud, it would be a-ok?

Whether or not he stated his intentions out loud has no bearing on what those intentions were.

But how are we to determine what someone intentions are? Once we go down that route, the game just doesn't work anymore.

Magic shifted to competitive play when they released Mirrodin Block. All hell broke loose and I actually stopped playing after that (because i could not win, i admit it). I came back during Ravnica, the competition is still there but i stick to Sealed environments where I have a better chance of an even playing field. Then the game comes down to skill and foresight rather than net-decking

or, to relate to 40k and keep on-topic (partially) net-listing. (looking at you, Leafblower)

insaniak wrote:

Gwar! wrote:So, if Dash had not stated his intent out loud, it would be a-ok?

Whether or not he stated his intentions out loud has no bearing on what those intentions were.

Damnit, I always knew I'd be guilty of thoughtcrime one day...

Gwar! wrote:But how are we to determine what someone intentions are?

We can't. As I pointed out in my first response in this thread.

Gwar! wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Gwar! wrote:So, if Dash had not stated his intent out loud, it would be a-ok?

Whether or not he stated his intentions out loud has no bearing on what those intentions were.

But how are we to determine what someone intentions are? Once we go down that route, the game just doesn't work anymore.

Ahh, and here is the heart of the matter. Is it only cheating if we both know the intent? Or is it enough that you are using the measurement to measure my stuff and you know good and well thats what you are using it for? I would say the latter. If i am using my tape measure to measure your movement/charge range and that is my intent the whole time, then I am cheating. It doesn't matter if my opponent knows what my intent is, I would know.


No, you can't control that stuff, doesn't mean its not cheating though, pretty simple stuff.



Clay

insaniak wrote:

Gwar! wrote:But how are we to determine what someone intentions are?

We can't. As I pointed out in my first response in this thread.

Exactly. Therefore we look to the rules. The Rules say you can measure then change your mind. Therefore, it is legal to measure 24" in one direction, then change your mind.

We don't know if he had any intention of moving 24" in that direction or not. All we do know is that the rules say you can do this.

@Primarch/Clay

The act of mentally figuring out what you can do on your turn is part of the game. Some people can guess ranges down to 0.001" without using a tape measure (rare but i've seen it happen). Using all tools available to maneuver (or out-maneuver) is just part of the game, whether you like it or not. I myself make mental notes during deployment of which terrain features are at my 12" line, and if i see my opponent stretch his deployment and press the 12" i make notes of terrain pieces there too. Estimating charge ranges, movement ranges, etc, is just part of trying to be a good general. Also, things like difficult terrain tests and run rolls are still random, so not every general will have his plan work the way he wants every time. DE just have an easier time b/c skimmers are hella fast and ignore terrain that they don't land in.

puma713 wrote:

syanticraven wrote:
Yes for fun, that is exactly why they where created. If It wasn't fun no one would care.

Really? Just so the guy that gets his teeth kicked in can say he had fun because he got a 24 in Sportsmanship and a 21 in Painting? Or maybe it was to level the playing field for those that don't choose to be WAAC players. I'm not saying that I agree with soft scores. I actually prefer a tournament without them, but they weren't created so TO's could have something else to judge.

Either way it was still created for 'fun' people enjoy the art of painting their models and get rewarded for it, and it ads an extra edge to the competition.
The whole reason tournaments exist are for fun. Be it enjoying winning/ the painting/ the people, what ever your preference in a tournament. People go to these events for fun. If they where no fun no one would appear.

tetrisphreak wrote:@Primarch/Clay

The act of mentally figuring out what you can do on your turn is part of the game. Some people can guess ranges down to 0.001" without using a tape measure (rare but i've seen it happen). Using all tools available to maneuver (or out-maneuver) is just part of the game, whether you like it or not. I myself make mental notes during deployment of which terrain features are at my 12" line, and if i see my opponent stretch his deployment and press the 12" i make notes of terrain pieces there too. Estimating charge ranges, movement ranges, etc, is just part of trying to be a good general. Also, things like difficult terrain tests and run rolls are still random, so not every general will have his plan work the way he wants every time. DE just have an easier time b/c skimmers are hella fast and ignore terrain that they don't land in.

Im not sure you are actually reading/comprehending anything i've said here. I don't know how to answer you any more. The things you mention above, you are correct about. What does that have to do with this thread?


Clay

Gwar! wrote:Exactly. Therefore we look to the rules. The Rules say you can measure then change your mind. Therefore, it is legal to measure 24" in one direction, then change your mind.

Of course it is. But that's not what he was doing.

Go back and read the first post again. Nowhere in there is a mention of him intending to move the vehicle in one direction, followed by him changing his mind. He specifically made the measurement to determine how far away the enemy vehicle was.

Whether or not his opponent knew his reasons for doing it, or knew that it was what he was doing, that's against the rules.

tetrisphreak wrote:*double post*

Yes, as long as you don't use that to measure where my models can end up their move/charge, then I would be ok with that. But, if you do it in your head, or out loud, then you are breaking the rules. Not sure what else there is that can be said to make it more clear.



Clay

Primarch wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:*double post*

Yes, as long as you don't use that to measure where my models can end up their move/charge, then I would be ok with that. But, if you do it in your head, or out loud, then you are breaking the rules. Not sure what else there is that can be said to make it more clear.



Clay

I'm sorry but i simply disagree with that statement. I feel as though measuring everything i possibly can to give me an edge is strong gameplay and generalship. I would expect my opponent to use all his tools available to do the same. I do apologize that we don't share the same opinion on wargaming.

tetrisphreak wrote:

Primarch wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:*double post*

Yes, as long as you don't use that to measure where my models can end up their move/charge, then I would be ok with that. But, if you do it in your head, or out loud, then you are breaking the rules. Not sure what else there is that can be said to make it more clear.



Clay

I'm sorry but i simply disagree with that statement. I feel as though measuring everything i possibly can to give me an edge is strong gameplay and generalship. I would expect my opponent to use all his tools available to do the same. I do apologize that we don't share the same opinion on wargaming.

So complete pre-measuring of everything in the game is the rule that is followed where you play? Where I play, my rule book says that is illegal, and is not a "tool", but instead an illegal move. Using that to win a game is called cheating, and is very frowned upon. I apologize that we don't seem to share the same rulebook, or play the same game. It is Warhammer 40k you are talking about right?


Clay

tetrisphreak wrote:

Primarch wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:*double post*

Yes, as long as you don't use that to measure where my models can end up their move/charge, then I would be ok with that. But, if you do it in your head, or out loud, then you are breaking the rules. Not sure what else there is that can be said to make it more clear.



Clay

I'm sorry but i simply disagree with that statement. I feel as though measuring everything i possibly can to give me an edge is strong gameplay and generalship. I would expect my opponent to use all his tools available to do the same. I do apologize that we don't share the same opinion on wargaming.

Measuring your opponent's charge range to your unit so that you can avoid the charge is against the rules. It's not strong gameplay or generalship. It's cheating.

Primarch wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:

Primarch wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:*double post*

Yes, as long as you don't use that to measure where my models can end up their move/charge, then I would be ok with that. But, if you do it in your head, or out loud, then you are breaking the rules. Not sure what else there is that can be said to make it more clear.



Clay

I'm sorry but i simply disagree with that statement. I feel as though measuring everything i possibly can to give me an edge is strong gameplay and generalship. I would expect my opponent to use all his tools available to do the same. I do apologize that we don't share the same opinion on wargaming.

So complete pre-measuring of everything in the game is the rule that is followed where you play? Where I play, my rule book says that is illegal, and is not a "tool", but instead an illegal move. Using that to win a game is called cheating, and is very frowned upon. I apologize that we don't seem to share the same rulebook, or play the same game. It is Warhammer 40k you are talking about right?


Clay

Clay I am sorry but the rulebook CLEARLY states that the move is legal.
He measured his move range and it just happened your unit was within that. Making it legal

*ahem*

Measuring my movement the full allowable range (6" for infantry 12" for bikes 24" for fast skimmers ETC) is what i was referring to.

Do not try to twist my words to make me appear to be a cheater simply because I like to use every possible rule i can to get an advantage. I recommend you do the same, and perhaps you'll win more games. This is not an attack against you personally, so don't turn it into one against me.

I want to win, You want to win. Once everybody accepts that we can just get down to brass tacks and play.

@ Puma - By your logic, simply KNOWING your charge range for your combinations of units is cheating. Measuring is part of the game, so is calculating in your mind the numbers required for you (or your opponent) to get the charge off. It's an integral mechanic to the game!

syanticraven wrote:

Primarch wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:

Primarch wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:*double post*

Yes, as long as you don't use that to measure where my models can end up their move/charge, then I would be ok with that. But, if you do it in your head, or out loud, then you are breaking the rules. Not sure what else there is that can be said to make it more clear.



Clay

I'm sorry but i simply disagree with that statement. I feel as though measuring everything i possibly can to give me an edge is strong gameplay and generalship. I would expect my opponent to use all his tools available to do the same. I do apologize that we don't share the same opinion on wargaming.

So complete pre-measuring of everything in the game is the rule that is followed where you play? Where I play, my rule book says that is illegal, and is not a "tool", but instead an illegal move. Using that to win a game is called cheating, and is very frowned upon. I apologize that we don't seem to share the same rulebook, or play the same game. It is Warhammer 40k you are talking about right?


Clay

Clay I am sorry but the rulebook CLEARLY states that the move is legal.

Using your tape measure to measure my move/charge range is clearly not legal. Not in the 5th edition rulebook that I have. Is yours in a different language? Maybe the translation is the problem here?


Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tetrisphreak wrote:*ahem*

Measuring my movement the full allowable range (6" for infantry 12" for bikes 24" for fast skimmers ETC) is what i was referring to.

Do not try to twist my words to make me appear to be a cheater simply because I like to use every possible rule i can to get an advantage. I recommend you do the same, and perhaps you'll win more games. This is not an attack against you personally, so don't turn it into one against me.

I want to win, You want to win. Once everybody accepts that we can just get down to brass tacks and play.

Please re-read my post. I said that doing what you reference above is legal, and acceptable. Using your tape measure to measure my move/charge is not legal, and is cheating.


Clay

Primarch wrote:

syanticraven wrote:

Primarch wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:

Primarch wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:*double post*

Yes, as long as you don't use that to measure where my models can end up their move/charge, then I would be ok with that. But, if you do it in your head, or out loud, then you are breaking the rules. Not sure what else there is that can be said to make it more clear.



Clay

I'm sorry but i simply disagree with that statement. I feel as though measuring everything i possibly can to give me an edge is strong gameplay and generalship. I would expect my opponent to use all his tools available to do the same. I do apologize that we don't share the same opinion on wargaming.

So complete pre-measuring of everything in the game is the rule that is followed where you play? Where I play, my rule book says that is illegal, and is not a "tool", but instead an illegal move. Using that to win a game is called cheating, and is very frowned upon. I apologize that we don't seem to share the same rulebook, or play the same game. It is Warhammer 40k you are talking about right?


Clay

Clay I am sorry but the rulebook CLEARLY states that the move is legal.

Using your tape measure to measure my move/charge range is clearly not legal. Not in the 5th edition rulebook that I have. Is yours in a different language? Maybe the translation is the problem here?


Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tetrisphreak wrote:*ahem*

Measuring my movement the full allowable range (6" for infantry 12" for bikes 24" for fast skimmers ETC) is what i was referring to.

Do not try to twist my words to make me appear to be a cheater simply because I like to use every possible rule i can to get an advantage. I recommend you do the same, and perhaps you'll win more games. This is not an attack against you personally, so don't turn it into one against me.

I want to win, You want to win. Once everybody accepts that we can just get down to brass tacks and play.

Please re-read my post. I said that doing what you reference above is legal, and acceptable. Using your tape measure to measure my move/charge is not legal, and is cheating.


Clay

No measuring MY movement range is legal and any extra information I get from that is mines to use without disqualification or bad sportsmanship.
If you happen to be within my movement range and I know you can charge 30" then I cannot be penalized for knowing my opponents army.
That would be silly.

If you use your tape measure to measure my movement, then you are breaking the rules of the game. It doesn't matter what "trick" you think you are using for this. The rules are clear, you are only ALLOWED to measure your movement.

I just don't see why this is so hard for you to grasp.


Clay

+1 @ syanticraven

Knowledge is power, especially in 40K

I think I have made my point, but if you come up with anything else feel free to PM me.

puma713 wrote:

The thing is, a can of worms is opened either way. If you play that way, then I can technically measure anything I want. As I've said before, I can measure for bolter fire to the back of your deployment (or wherever your farthest unit is away) and start taking notes of how far I need to Deep Strike next turn to not go off the table/hit an opponent's unit. I can measure exactly how far it will take you to get to me and vice versa. I can measure for other weapons. I can measure for just about anything (aka pre-measure) with a simple bolter fire that wouldn't hit anyway - so it doesn't cost me anything.

Not sure why you did this, but you took the situation at hand and morphed into something completely different, which is cheating. If you have a 12" gun, you declare a target and measure 12" to that specific target. That can't in any way be tied into moving....in which you extend your measuring tape out to your possible range and weigh your options.

If your tank can move 12" and you're measuring 13+" around....yep. Cheating.

If your tank can move 12" and you measure 12" in different directions to weigh your options....not cheating.

If your skimmer can move 24" and you measure out 24" to see what your various options are....not cheating. Unsportsmanlike? I don't know. That's what this thread is for.

Primarch wrote:If you use your tape measure to measure my movement, then you are breaking the rules of the game. It doesn't matter what "trick" you think you are using for this. The rules are clear, you are only ALLOWED to measure your movement.

I just don't see why this is so hard for you to grasp.


Clay

Because they don't see it for what it is. Using one rule to break another. So it's okay since it's a rule, even though using the rule breaks another rule.

What's that that Gwar! always says? How many rules does playing it your way break? 1. How many rules does playing it my way break? 0.

Primarch wrote:If you use your tape measure to measure my movement, then you are breaking the rules of the game. It doesn't matter what "trick" you think you are using for this. The rules are clear, you are only ALLOWED to measure your movement.

I just don't see why this is so hard for you to grasp.


Clay

Say it is a mirror match, my raider can move 12" and your raider can move 12" , I declare I am moving, measure 12" towards you.
What then? I am disqualified because I now know that If I stay still you are 12" away from me or if I move back 12" you are now 24" away?
No that is not how this game works.

Now change that to I can move 24" and you can move 30", they same rules still apply. I an not going to be penalized for knowing my opponents army, especially as that is part of the game.

Dashofpepper wrote:

puma713 wrote:

The thing is, a can of worms is opened either way. If you play that way, then I can technically measure anything I want. As I've said before, I can measure for bolter fire to the back of your deployment (or wherever your farthest unit is away) and start taking notes of how far I need to Deep Strike next turn to not go off the table/hit an opponent's unit. I can measure exactly how far it will take you to get to me and vice versa. I can measure for other weapons. I can measure for just about anything (aka pre-measure) with a simple bolter fire that wouldn't hit anyway - so it doesn't cost me anything.

Not sure why you did this, but you took the situation at hand and morphed into something completely different, which is cheating. If you have a 12" gun, you declare a target and measure 12" to that specific target. That can't in any way be tied into moving....in which you extend your measuring tape out to your possible range and weigh your options.

If your tank can move 12" and you're measuring 13+" around....yep. Cheating.

If your tank can move 12" and you measure 12" in different directions to weigh your options....not cheating.

If your skimmer can move 24" and you measure out 24" to see what your various options are....not cheating. Unsportsmanlike? I don't know. That's what this thread is for.

Wrong Dash. If your skimmer can move 24 inches and you measure 24 inches out to see what your various movement options are, not cheating. If you do that to pre-measure MY movement, then you are cheating. Pretty clear in the rule book.


Clay

I figured it would be a 2:3:1 ratio, in that order. I was wrong. Anyhoo, I believe while being perfectly legal, you are abusing a rule, only thing I would do is deduct one from sportsmanship!

syanticraven wrote:

Primarch wrote:If you use your tape measure to measure my movement, then you are breaking the rules of the game. It doesn't matter what "trick" you think you are using for this. The rules are clear, you are only ALLOWED to measure your movement.

I just don't see why this is so hard for you to grasp.


Clay

Say it is a mirror match, my raider can move 12" and your raider can move 12" , I declare I am moving, measure 12" towards you.
What then? I am disqualified because I now know that If I stay still you are 12" away from me or if I move back 12" you are now 24" away?
No that is not how this game works.

Now change that to I can move 24" and you can move 30", they same rules still apply. I an not going to be penalized for knowing my opponents army, especially as that is part of the game.

Clearly you aren't following the thread. Explicitly measuring to my vehicle to gain knowledge of my movement/charge range is against the rules. The intention of the rule is to pre-measure your own movement, not your opponents.


Clay

Dashofpepper wrote:

puma713 wrote:

The thing is, a can of worms is opened either way. If you play that way, then I can technically measure anything I want. As I've said before, I can measure for bolter fire to the back of your deployment (or wherever your farthest unit is away) and start taking notes of how far I need to Deep Strike next turn to not go off the table/hit an opponent's unit. I can measure exactly how far it will take you to get to me and vice versa. I can measure for other weapons. I can measure for just about anything (aka pre-measure) with a simple bolter fire that wouldn't hit anyway - so it doesn't cost me anything.

Not sure why you did this, but you took the situation at hand and morphed into something completely different, which is cheating. If you have a 12" gun, you declare a target and measure 12" to that specific target. That can't in any way be tied into moving....in which you extend your measuring tape out to your possible range and weigh your options.

Wrong. Pg. 17:

Check Range. When you're checking range, simply measure from each firer to the nearest visible model in the target unit. Any model that is found to be out of range of all the models he can see in the target unit misses automatically - his shots simply do not reach.

There is never a caveat saying that if I can only shoot 12", I can't measure across the board. In fact, it simply says "choose your target before measuring range" and then the next passage follows. There's nothing about it extending beyond the maximum range. If you couldn't measure beyond something's maximum range, then how would you ever shoot a lascannon 49" away and miss? You just can't measure that because it's beyond the weapon's range? Wrong.

I know for a fact that a 12" bolt pistol can't hit a unit 48" away. But, I pick the target, and I measure range. How convenient, my Land Raider is in that arc of fire and I can tell that I'm 15" away from your unit. Sweet.

Gwar!'s admission, if you need someone else's opinion:

Gwar! wrote:
However, when I play the game, if you want to play by the rules, I have no right to get annoyed or to stop you. And no, I would have no problem with you measuring your Devastators bolters from the back of the field, as you are permitted to, nay, you are REQUIRED to, measure the distance every time you fire.

Gwar! wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Gwar! wrote:But how are we to determine what someone intentions are?

We can't. As I pointed out in my first response in this thread.

Exactly. Therefore we look to the rules. The Rules say you can measure then change your mind. Therefore, it is legal to measure 24" in one direction, then change your mind.

We don't know if he had any intention of moving 24" in that direction or not. All we do know is that the rules say you can do this.

Except we do know, because Dash said so, so by his own admission, he was not following the rule to measure his "intended" movement, because he clearly didn't intend to do so. So in that case, it was an illegal action.

Now, if he had said nothing of the sort, then it would have probably been very difficult to tell what Dash was doing, and Clay may have let it slide.

And, the rules say you can do this pre-measurement, but only that pre-measurement, so by RAW, if you do anything that allows you to even see another model next to that tape measure (like a battlewagon at the 19" mark, for example) then you have broken the rule, by RAW.

So in my mind, that means that unless you pre-measure with your eyes closed in most cases, you probably won't be able to pre-measure your distance without getting some type of inkling as to where other things are on the board, and therefore are in violation of the rules, and should not be pre-measuring. That's RAW baby.