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Hey folks! I had an issue that came up in a game - was being discussed in a battle report thread of mine and driving it downhill so I thought it better moved here:

Picture this scenario in a tournament:

Ork player has a battlewagon on the field. Dark Eldar player has a raider on the field. It is the Dark Eldar player's turn to move. The raider can move 24" per turn. DE wants to be outside of the charge range of the contents of the battlewagon, which could be up to 30" if played right.

The DE player measures 24" ahead (maximum move range), notes that the battlewagon is 19" away along that 24" move, then moves 12" backwards to end up 31" away.

Your thoughts?

Yes, it is perfectly fine to do this, though technically what you must do is this:
1) Declare you are moving the Vehicle.
2) Measure the vehicles move as far as you wish, up to it's maximum allowed move of course.
3) You now know that this is x" from the starting point.
4) As per page 11 of the Main Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, which states "It is perfectly fine to measure a unit's move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else (even the opposite way entirely!) or decide not to move it at all", you are now entitled to decide to move it in another direction.
5) You now place the vehicle at it's original starting point and measure in a different direction, then move the vehicle there.

tl'dr You can essentially pre-measure in the movement phase up to a units maximum move.

Fine stop whining or fine but shady? You have to vote too!

im at work so i dont have my book handy, but i was under the impression you picked a direction, declared your speed (or distance you want to move), measure that range, then move the vehicle. measuring a range before hand, then moving a completly diffrent direction....that seems wrong. i didnt vote because im unsure... but just my 2 pennies to the mix.

It's legal but to digress, how are you getting 30" charge range out of a B-wagon?

13" move (red paint), 2" disembark to the back of the base, 6" fleet move, 6" assault. 27" max to the back of the base, on a darn lucky roll. What am I missing?

DarthSpader wrote:im at work so i dont have my book handy, but i was under the impression you picked a direction, declared your speed (or distance you want to move), measure that range, then move the vehicle. measuring a range before hand, then moving a completly diffrent direction....that seems wrong. i didnt vote because im unsure... but just my 2 pennies to the mix.

Nope. The rule on page 11 very clearly states: "It is perfectly fine to measure a unit's move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else (even the opposite way entirely!) or decide not to move it at all."

NuggzTheNinja wrote:It's legal but to digress, how are you getting 30" charge range out of a B-wagon?

13" move (red paint), 2" disembark to the back of the base, 6" fleet move, 6" assault. 27" max to the back of the base, on a darn lucky roll. What am I missing?

You have Ghazgul, who is on a 40mm base, so you have 13", +2 from disembarking, +2" from the base, +6 with Ghazes auto 6, Plus between 1 and 6 for Assault (he has Mega Armour) and also if he pulls the Rotate trick to gain another 2" or so, that's an easy 30".

well then it would seem to be legal just as you've quoted. somewhat cheesy....but fine. completley OT, but what im wondering is: what was in the raider that the DE player didnt want assaulted? usually DE are faster and better at CC then orks, or at least what i think are the ideal raider mounted units (whyches, incubi, etc)... even if you do charge his raider, you hit on 6's, at wich point his guys hop out (or untangle from the wreck) and assault (or rapid fire), probally wiping or at least severely beating down the orks standing around.... so what was he worried about?

Got it, thanks Gwar!.

Good, you moved the thread. I was posting in your battle report just as it was locked.

Legal? Yes. Shady? Yes. In fact, so shady that I agree that Clay had the right be a little miffed. I would have been too. Imagine this:

You have a squad that may or may not be in assault range. You also have a Devastator Squad that is some ways away. You fire your Devastator squad at the unit that the assaulting unit is about to charge and, as you lay down your tape measure, you make sure to take note of how far away your assaulting unit is away from the enemy unit. Oooh, 7" away. Won't be able to assault, might as well rapid fire.

Legal? Sure. Frowned upon? Definitely. I think it's shady. Your intent was to avoid being assaulted, not move. You weren't measuring to see if you would move that far. You were measuring to see how far you needed to be away to not get assaulted. If your intent was to move backward, then why measure 24" toward the Battlewagon? That's pre-measuring anyway you slice it. It may be legal, but I would be in the same mindset that Clay was in. It's taking a rule and turning it on its ear for your advantage, which is neither friendly nor sportsmanlike.

DarthSpader wrote:well then it would seem to be legal just as you've quoted. somewhat cheesy....but fine. completley OT, but what im wondering is: what was in the raider that the DE player didnt want assaulted? usually DE are faster and better at CC then orks, or at least what i think are the ideal raider mounted units (whyches, incubi, etc)... even if you do charge his raider, you hit on 6's, at wich point his guys hop out (or untangle from the wreck) and assault (or rapid fire), probally wiping or at least severely beating down the orks standing around.... so what was he worried about?

The contents aren't relevant to the discussion, just the idea of measuring like this. And....it was either an empty raider or a raider with 5 wyches. Why take the chance of getting hit on 6+ when you could just not get hit at all?

puma713 wrote:That's pre-measuring anyway you slice it..

Yes, but it's LEGAL pre measuring.

Would you also be "miffed" if someone took -giggles- Flash Gits, and fire them first and used their Gitfinders to legally pre measure to every enemy unit, even ones "clearly" out of range?

It's still pre measuring, but it's 110% allowed by the rules, as is "pre measuring" with other units movements.

The rules seem to specifically allow this. I would only consider this shady if you measured more than the maximum movement allowed by the vehicle.

Gwar! wrote:

puma713 wrote:That's pre-measuring anyway you slice it..

Would you also be "miffed" if someone took -snicker- Flash Gits, and fire them first and used their Gitfinders to legally pre measure to every enemy unit, even ones "clearly" out of range?

Yep. You wouldn't? That's no different than using bolters to fire at a Devastator Squad 48" away, knowing they'll miss, but wanting to get a measurement of how far everything else is away from them.

zeshin wrote:The rules seem to specifically allow this. I would only consider this shady if you measured more than the maximum movement allowed by the vehicle.

Not only would I find this shady, I would also find it highly against the rules.

I would then hit you with a Bacon and Jam sandwich, as is the punishment for cheating around these parts..

It's legal, but is (IMO) intended to allow you to see where the vehicle could move to, not to allow you to pre-measure ranges for other things.

So if you're doing it purely to see where the raider can move, that's fine. If you're doing it purely to take advantage of the measurement allowance so that you can move out of range of an attack... Nope, that's shady.

Of course, there's no way to enforce a rule based on an opponent's motivation... That's entirely up to the player themselves.

puma713 wrote:Yep. You wouldn't? That's no different than using bolters to fire at a Devastator Squad 48" away, knowing they'll miss, but wanting to get a measurement of how far everything else is away from them.

Of course I wouldn't. They are using the rules properly, so why would I get miffed? I may as well get annoyed that Bolters are S4 and my enemies Pulse Rifles are S5, or that a Flush beats a Pair when I am playing Poker.

Of course, YMMV, and I can understand why you would consider it shady.

Gwar! wrote:

puma713 wrote:Yep. You wouldn't? That's no different than using bolters to fire at a Devastator Squad 48" away, knowing they'll miss, but wanting to get a measurement of how far everything else is away from them.

Of course I wouldn't. They are using the rules properly, so why would I get miffed? I may as well get annoyed that Bolters are S4 and my enemies Pulse Rifles are S5, or that a Flush beats a Pair when I am playing Poker.

That's the difference between RAW players and RAI players. The RAW players don't care about the spirit of the game, as long as they can squeeze an extra inch out of a squad or make sure that they win. (Or choice RAW players anyway.) So, I guess you don't mind me measuring from bolters at the back of the field to your units in your deployment, so I know how far I need to move my Land Raider to assault out of it and still get you? I mean, the bolters will miss. . but I had to measure!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And Dash, I know that you don't give a flip about what I think about you or the way you play your games, but I usually enjoy your batreps. I don't even play orks, but I enjoy reading your games because they are informative, easy to follow and usually pretty by-the-book. This batrep was the only one that I've ever disliked and it was all because of that move.

puma713 wrote:That's the difference between RAW players and RAI players. The RAW players don't care about the spirit of the game, as long as they can squeeze an extra inch out of a squad or make sure that they win. (Or choice RAW players anyway.) So, I guess you don't mind me measuring from bolters at the back of the field to your units in your deployment, so I know how far I need to move my Land Raider to assault out of it and still get you? I mean, the bolters will miss. . but I had to measure!

I do care about the spirit of the game. That's why I spent hundreds of hours writing my Unofficial FAQs.

However, when I play the game, if you want to play by the rules, I have no right to get annoyed or to stop you. And no, I would have no problem with you measuring your Devastators bolters from the back of the field, as you are permitted to, nay, you are REQUIRED to, measure the distance every time you fire.

Gwar! wrote:
And no, I would have no problem with you measuring your Devastators bolters from the back of the field, as you are permitted to, nay, you are REQUIRED to, measure the distance every time you fire.

Quick nitpick - I was talking about measuring my normal bolters (read Tac squad) to your Devastators. And that's in line with the "spirit of the game?" I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. By following the rules of the game, it inherently breaks another rule. I don't believe that is in the spirit of the game, just like I don't believe measuring forward (with no intention of moving that direction, solely for measuring for your advantage) for your movement and then moving backward is in the spirit of the game.

That's the difference between RAW players and RAI players. The RAW players don't care about the spirit of the game, as long as they can squeeze an extra inch out of a squad or make sure that they win. (Or choice RAW players anyway.) So, I guess you don't mind me measuring from bolters at the back of the field to your units in your deployment, so I know how far I need to move my Land Raider to assault out of it and still get you? I mean, the bolters will miss. . but I had to measure!

personally i play as RAW, and frankly if there was nothing in range for me to shoot at and/or there was a high priority target at the back of the table, then sure, i'd consider it. Though for your example, i'd only measure the max range of the weapon.

Just remember its a game of strategy.

Seriphis wrote:

That's the difference between RAW players and RAI players. The RAW players don't care about the spirit of the game, as long as they can squeeze an extra inch out of a squad or make sure that they win. (Or choice RAW players anyway.) So, I guess you don't mind me measuring from bolters at the back of the field to your units in your deployment, so I know how far I need to move my Land Raider to assault out of it and still get you? I mean, the bolters will miss. . but I had to measure!

personally i play as RAW, and frankly if there was nothing in range for me to shoot at and/or there was a high priority target at the back of the table, then sure, i'd consider it. Though for your example, i'd only measure the max range of the weapon.

Just remember its a game of strategy.

Then I trust you don't count a Doom of Malantai as a zoanthrope, a Swarmlord as a Hive Tyrant, and you abide by all the other RAW silliness in that RAW fun thread? I think there is a vast separation between these two types of players.

Anyway, I'm not going to get bogged down and derail the thread/poll. You know my stance: yes it's legal. It's about the most shady thing you could do (along with measuring a 12" weapon to see how far something could move or assault to the back of the field) and I'm not sure we'd ever be playing again. But like I said above, that's your perogative. My respect for you as a sportsman and as a general would have dropped a few pegs as well, but in the other thread, you said that you wouldn't do it again.

Edit: Yes, it's a game of strategy. It's also one of fun, for both parties (or supposed to be). And if it's one you're so hellbent on winning that you have to resort to those types of means, then you can have the win, you great General, you. I'll go play elsewhere.

puma713 wrote:
Then I trust you don't count a Doom of Malantai as a zoanthrope, a Swarmlord as a Hive Tyrant, and you abide by all the other RAW silliness in that RAW fun thread? I think there is a vast separation between these two types of players.

I'd prefer to keep this about this particular topic, and I'm watching the poll.

I'm pretty sure I wrote this above....

But this isn't a regular tactic. This was something that presented itself in a unique situation, and I thought, "Oh! Brilliant Idea!" And my opponent was like, "That's not cool...." And I was like, "Why not?" And he was like, "Its against the spirit of the rules...." and I was like, "Erm..."

My gaming habits roll with the majority. As an ork player, before the Deffrolla FAQ, instead of arguing about it with everyone, I just didn't take Deffrollas. For the Atlanta event I just attended, I called ahead to find out their ruling on Nightmare Dolls. Whatever is "the way things are" I accept and roll with.

This was just something that had never come up before with me.

I'm not for or against doing this, just curious since I did it and got a negative reaction that I wasn't expecting.

Dashofpepper wrote:

puma713 wrote:
Then I trust you don't count a Doom of Malantai as a zoanthrope, a Swarmlord as a Hive Tyrant, and you abide by all the other RAW silliness in that RAW fun thread? I think there is a vast separation between these two types of players.

I'd prefer to keep this about this particular topic, and I'm watching the poll.

I'm pretty sure I wrote this above....

And I'm pretty sure I just said that I wasn't continuing on that line because it might derail the poll/thread.

Dashofpepper wrote:But this isn't a regular tactic. This was something that presented itself in a unique situation, and I thought, "Oh! Brilliant Idea!" And my opponent was like, "That's not cool...." And I was like, "Why not?" And he was like, "Its against the spirit of the rules...." and I was like, "Erm..."

My gaming habits roll with the majority. As an ork player, before the Deffrolla FAQ, instead of arguing about it with everyone, I just didn't take Deffrollas. For the Atlanta event I just attended, I called ahead to find out their ruling on Nightmare Dolls. Whatever is "the way things are" I accept and roll with.

This was just something that had never come up before with me.

I'm not for or against doing this, just curious since I did it and got a negative reaction that I wasn't expecting.

And I'd present the same situation to you that I did to Gwar! You'd be okay with me measuring my bolters that obviously can't hit your Raiders/Ravagers, just to see what kind of range I have on the rest of my weapons and if they can or can't hit, along with how far you can move next turn, assault and everything else about the game that I can glean from measuring my army to your army? Because that's what that allows me to do and I'm fairly certain that's not in the "spirit of the rules". After all, if it was, why not just allow premeasuring all the time?

Gwar! wrote:

DarthSpader wrote:im at work so i dont have my book handy, but i was under the impression you picked a direction, declared your speed (or distance you want to move), measure that range, then move the vehicle. measuring a range before hand, then moving a completly diffrent direction....that seems wrong. i didnt vote because im unsure... but just my 2 pennies to the mix.

Nope. The rule on page 11 very clearly states: "It is perfectly fine to measure a unit's move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else (even the opposite way entirely!) or decide not to move it at all."

NuggzTheNinja wrote:It's legal but to digress, how are you getting 30" charge range out of a B-wagon?

13" move (red paint), 2" disembark to the back of the base, 6" fleet move, 6" assault. 27" max to the back of the base, on a darn lucky roll. What am I missing?

You have Ghazgul, who is on a 40mm base, so you have 13", +2 from disembarking, +2" from the base, +6 with Ghazes auto 6, Plus between 1 and 6 for Assault (he has Mega Armour) and also if he pulls the Rotate trick to gain another 2" or so, that's an easy 30".

Bolded part is what I want to talk about here Gwar. I agree 100% with what you posted above. Too bad that Dash wasn't doing that at all. He had no intention of moving forward, said as much, then used the measurement to move out of charge range. The rule you quoted specifically mentions changing your mind. Now, of course most times you can't tell if someone is really changing their mind or not, but in this case, its perfectly clear what his intent was, and what he used the rule for. Neither of those things are mentioned as legal in your rules quote.



Clay

Primarch wrote:Bolded part is what I want to talk about here Gwar. I agree 100% with what you posted above. Too bad that Dash wasn't doing that at all. He had no intention of moving forward, said as much, then used the measurement to move out of charge range. The rule you quoted specifically mentions changing your mind. Now, of course most times you can't tell if someone is really changing their mind or not, but in this case, its perfectly clear what his intent was, and what he used the rule for. Neither of those things are mentioned as legal in your rules quote.

Well, all he has to say is "I did change my mind", and it is legal.

Ahh, so we are talking about a hypothetical, not the actual event in question?


Right, then I agree, hypothetically a person is legally allowed to measure HIS movement, then change his mind.


Realistically for the event in question, it was not legal, no question about it. So the instances need to be examined when they occur, not just a blanket "all movement pre-measuring is perfectly legal" stance.



Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is my main problem with this.


The rule on pre-measuring that Gwar quotes only mentions measuring YOUR movement. Not your opponents. There is also a rule about not being allowed to pre-measure things. If you put that together you get to this;


If you use the tape measure for ANYTHING other than measuring your own move, then you are breaking said rules. Note, this point is to the relevant discussion, not shooting etc. So if you put the tape measure down, and you "measure" my assault range under the guise of seeing how far you can move, then you are cheating, period. The rules do not allow for this type of measuring.



Clay

Dont get why so much is said on this. The answer is yes.

You declare your moving in a direction (to be safe if they want to rule laywer - technically you can measure the total distance it can move in a complete 360 degree arc ),measure the 24" in the direction and move anywhere in that range.
Although mark if it is above 6,12 or 18inchs (for later use in firing and that.)

Totally legal thing to do.

As soon as you start getting bogged down by what others think is lame or shady you are opening a huge can of worms.
Play by the RAW whenever possible and both players will adjust after a few games. You do not want to gimp yourself to appease some people, only to travel and have others do it to you. You will whine because "that's not how we play it back in ______" and it just gets on everyones nerves.

I must be missing something.


Are 22 people voting that it is perfectly legal to pre-measure your opponents charge range, during your own movement phase? That's what the poll looks like.....




Clay

Viper217 wrote:You do not want to gimp yourself to appease some people, only to travel and have others do it to you. You will whine because "that's not how we play it back in ______" and it just gets on everyones nerves.

Over measuring for what some would call an unfair advantage is "gimping" yourself? I know plenty of people who don't play this way and still take home top prizes. And I'll agree, it does open a can of worms when you add in RAI - but it should. The game isn't a cold, unfeeling game. It's supposed to be a match between two gentleman-like sportsmen. Feth your opponent - do what it takes to win - that's the mentality that pervades the tournament scene.

The thing is, a can of worms is opened either way. If you play that way, then I can technically measure anything I want. As I've said before, I can measure for bolter fire to the back of your deployment (or wherever your farthest unit is away) and start taking notes of how far I need to Deep Strike next turn to not go off the table/hit an opponent's unit. I can measure exactly how far it will take you to get to me and vice versa. I can measure for other weapons. I can measure for just about anything (aka pre-measure) with a simple bolter fire that wouldn't hit anyway - so it doesn't cost me anything.

Or, you can -not- play this way and avoid all these potential problems. What I'm getting at is playing this way (and trying to defend it as the "spirit of the game") opens more problems than it solves.

Now that I think about it, no one around here does this - the movement thing or the shooting thing. If it was such a non-issue, why doesn't everyone do it? Because it's frowned upon.