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Primarch wrote:

He never measured out movement and changed his mind. He used the rule that allowed him to measure HIS movement, and instead measured MY movement. Please catch up, or have Dash tell you the truth instead of apparently lieing to you about the situation.

Clay

Hold your horses there bud.....

I clearly explained what I was doing. Everyone seems to have gotten the drift except you. I've THREE TIMES over two threads explained that I measured 24" out to your battlewagon to find out that you were 19" away, which told me to move at least 11" away from you to stay out of a possible 29" charge range.

I explained what I did, I explained why I did it, I explained why I didn't think it was an issue, I explained your reaction and my thoughts on your reaction, as well as me backing off during the game to step down the rules lawyering.

There's no mystery that what I did was advantageous and I haven't tried hiding it. In the other thread, people supporting your viewpoint even credited me for being open with it, demonstrating that it wasn't done maliciously. Back of the lying accusations.

And don't think that Gwar is in my camp; we don't see eye to eye on many rule debates. I'm glad to have him be Johnny on the spot for rules quotes like "What's the rule for multi-assaulting" or "Can a unit do blah" but for grey areas, we virtually never see eye to eye.

Primarch wrote:

syanticraven wrote:

Primarch wrote:If you use your tape measure to measure my movement, then you are breaking the rules of the game. It doesn't matter what "trick" you think you are using for this. The rules are clear, you are only ALLOWED to measure your movement.

I just don't see why this is so hard for you to grasp.


Clay

Say it is a mirror match, my raider can move 12" and your raider can move 12" , I declare I am moving, measure 12" towards you.
What then? I am disqualified because I now know that If I stay still you are 12" away from me or if I move back 12" you are now 24" away?
No that is not how this game works.

Now change that to I can move 24" and you can move 30", they same rules still apply. I an not going to be penalized for knowing my opponents army, especially as that is part of the game.

Clearly you aren't following the thread. Explicitly measuring to my vehicle to gain knowledge of my movement/charge range is against the rules. The intention of the rule is to pre-measure your own movement, not your opponents.


Clay

If he is using information gained from his units movement arc then it is legal.

If he specifically takes the measuring tape and measures FROM (Read: the big plastic bit of the tape starts here) your vehicle TO (read: the small metal bit of the tape ends here)
his, then that is in fact an Illegal.

And yes measuring your vehicles range is illegal unless it comes from the knowledge gained from another legal measure of his. i.e movement.
Or say firing. Lets say I declare I'm firing at your tank with my flamer, for no other reason then measuring your distance. Sure it wont do feth all to your tank but it allows me to legally check if you are within 9 inchs.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Primarch wrote:

He never measured out movement and changed his mind. He used the rule that allowed him to measure HIS movement, and instead measured MY movement. Please catch up, or have Dash tell you the truth instead of apparently lieing to you about the situation.

Clay

Hold your horses there bud.....

I clearly explained what I was doing. Everyone seems to have gotten the drift except you. I've THREE TIMES over two threads explained that I measured 24" out to your battlewagon to find out that you were 19" away, which told me to move at least 11" away from you to stay out of a possible 29" charge range.

I explained what I did, I explained why I did it, I explained why I didn't think it was an issue, I explained your reaction and my thoughts on your reaction, as well as me backing off during the game to step down the rules lawyering.

There's no mystery that what I did was advantageous and I haven't tried hiding it. In the other thread, people supporting your viewpoint even credited me for being open with it, demonstrating that it wasn't done maliciously. Back of the lying accusations.

And don't think that Gwar is in my camp; we don't see eye to eye on many rule debates. I'm glad to have him be Johnny on the spot for rules quotes like "What's the rule for multi-assaulting" or "Can a unit do blah" but for grey areas, we virtually never see eye to eye.

Instead of quoting my post, how about add in the context. The part where GWAR assumes a bunch of things about the situation, and since you and he talk, sure i also assumed you had either talked to him, or he hadn't read the actual thread. One of which was true. Also, you backed it down? After every point had been conceded to you? Sure you did, there wasn't anything else to argue about that would matter.


Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

syanticraven wrote:

Primarch wrote:

syanticraven wrote:

Primarch wrote:If you use your tape measure to measure my movement, then you are breaking the rules of the game. It doesn't matter what "trick" you think you are using for this. The rules are clear, you are only ALLOWED to measure your movement.

I just don't see why this is so hard for you to grasp.


Clay

Say it is a mirror match, my raider can move 12" and your raider can move 12" , I declare I am moving, measure 12" towards you.
What then? I am disqualified because I now know that If I stay still you are 12" away from me or if I move back 12" you are now 24" away?
No that is not how this game works.

Now change that to I can move 24" and you can move 30", they same rules still apply. I an not going to be penalized for knowing my opponents army, especially as that is part of the game.

Clearly you aren't following the thread. Explicitly measuring to my vehicle to gain knowledge of my movement/charge range is against the rules. The intention of the rule is to pre-measure your own movement, not your opponents.


Clay

If he is using information gained from his units movement arc then it is legal.

If he specifically takes the measuring tape and measures FROM (Read: the big plastic bit of the tape starts here) your vehicle TO (read: the small metal bit of the tape ends here)
his, then that is in fact an Illegal.

And yes measuring your vehicles range is illegal unless it comes from the knowledge gained from another legal measure of his. i.e movement.

This is where we mainly disagree. My rule book says he can't measure my stuff. That's all it says. It doesn't add in the caveat that you keep mentioning. Can you point me to that page please? Maybe my book has a page missing.


Clay

Personally, I say thats totally legal. Its the maximum move distance on the tape measure, on your movement phase. I dont see how that would be cheating at all. All your doing is making sure you dont move to close to keep the opponent from getting an undesired charge on you.

Now if you pulled that anytime other then mentioned, then yea thats totally cheating, like measuring shooting distance before declaring the shot. I had someone try and pull that a week or so ago. After a short "me being mean" they realized their error and desided to not fire said squad

Voted perfectly legal - it's kind of hard to argue that measuring and moving in a different direction is against the spirit of the rules when you're explicitly allowed to right in the text.

Your rulebook says he cant measure your stuff.

Yes he cant literally take out his measuring tape and check distances. He also cant do it himself unless declaring.

But it isnt illegal if he comes across the information in his measuring of his own units.

For example. I can fire 30", I declare firing at your unit, it is within 30", this must be illegal as I then have measured the proximity of YOUR unit?

Son I do not mean to be rude but please smack yourself in the face if you answer yes to the above.

KingCracker wrote:Personally, I say thats totally legal. Its the maximum move distance on the tape measure, on your movement phase. I dont see how that would be cheating at all. All your doing is making sure you dont move to close to keep the opponent from getting an undesired charge on you.

Now if you pulled that anytime other then mentioned, then yea thats totally cheating, like measuring shooting distance before declaring the shot. I had someone try and pull that a week or so ago. After a short "me being mean" they realized their error and desided to not fire said squad

That's issue in question KingCracker. He wasn't measuring movement. He was measuring potential charge range masked as movement. He was completely admitting about it. There were no questions. It wasn't like. . "oh. . .I may move over here. Oop! You're pretty close!"

It was:

"Let's see how far it'll take you to charge me. Now let's move away from that."

This may be legal RaW but it's a serious dick move. Do it if you want, but you better be prepared to let a marine player tell you his character in terminator armor can sweeping advance because he's not a terminator, or a necron player gain shots on his monolith from weapon destroyed results, or anyone tell you that your boarding planks can't be used after a vehicle moves more than 12" total for the whole game.

Is it legal? sure.

Is it intended? Definitely not.

RaW is a slippery slope.

syanticraven wrote:Your rulebook says he cant measure your stuff.

Yes he cant literally take out his measuring tape and check distances. He also cant do it himself unless declaring.

But it isnt illegal if he comes across the information in his measuring of his own units.

For example. I can fire 30", I declare firing at your unit, it is within 30", this must be illegal as I then have measured the proximity of YOUR unit?

Son I do not mean to be rude but please smack yourself in the face if you answer yes to the above.

I don't get how that's even pertinent. The rulebook explicitly allows you - in fact, makes you - measure range for shooting. It does not do the same for your opponent's movement/charge range in your movement phase.

syanticraven wrote:Your rulebook says he cant measure your stuff.

Yes he cant literally take out his measuring tape and check distances. He also cant do it himself unless declaring.

But it isnt illegal if he comes across the information in his measuring of his own units.

For example. I can fire 30", I declare firing at your unit, it is within 30" this must be illegal as I then have measured the proximity of YOUR unit?

Son I do not mean to be rude but please smack yourself in the face if you answer yes to the above.

Not sure you are even bothering to read my post since you just keep saying the same thing over, without adressing my point.



If.......you......use.......your......tape......measure......to.......specifically........measure.......my.......movement/charge.......then.......you........are.......cheating........



Thats pretty much my point. If you are shooting and measure to my unit to check range, sure you will know the range, but thats not WHY you are doing the measuring. If you measure your movement so you can in turn measure my movement/charge range, then you are cheating. That's pretty clearly the rules of the game. Your intent is exactly the point. If your intent is to use your tape measure in any way to pre-measure my movement/charge range, then you are not playing by the rules.

If your intent is not to do so, but you gain some knowledge of the information anyway, then that's just a byproduct of having to measure things. Again, it is solely your intent that matters. If you intend to cheat, then it's cheating.


By your logic, if my opponent doesn't see me, or know that I am cheating, then I am not? Great attitude.


Clay

puma713 wrote:

syanticraven wrote:Your rulebook says he cant measure your stuff.

Yes he cant literally take out his measuring tape and check distances. He also cant do it himself unless declaring.

But it isnt illegal if he comes across the information in his measuring of his own units.

For example. I can fire 30", I declare firing at your unit, it is within 30", this must be illegal as I then have measured the proximity of YOUR unit?

Son I do not mean to be rude but please smack yourself in the face if you answer yes to the above.

I don't get how that's even pertinent. The rulebook explicitly allows you - in fact, makes you - measure range for shooting. It does not do the same for your opponent's movement/charge range in your movement phase.

Did you take a blind eye to this or do you not like to see the truth?

He wanted to move a direction so measured. He changed his mind. He then measured again to see that you where within his movement range = legal

So then any unit of person A that can move into contact with Person Bs unit is then effectively measured their opponents range (by measuring their own range and seeing they are in range) and is therefore making an illegal move. According to the opposite side of this argument.

Edit: At clay, no it really isnt the rules of the game, seriously I am reading your post, it is you who been giving the verdict is arguing your point. He made a legal move within his movement phase measuring from his unit with the legal measuring distance of his unit. Please Either be reasonable or just leave thinking you are right.

Would it be cheating to you if I measured my 48" range gun to shoot at a unit 26" away so I could use that range to help figure out if a third unit should run or shoot?

syanticraven wrote:

Did you take a blind eye to this or do you not like to see the truth?

He wanted to move a direction so measured. He changed his mind. He then measured again to see that you where within his movement range = legal

Holy crap. You really haven't been reading, have you? I mean, I've seen Primarch ask you if you have, but you really haven't? Dash didn't WANT TO MOVE AND CHANGE HIS MIND. HE WANTED TO MEASURE HIS OPPONENT'S MOVEMENT AND CHARGE RANGE SO HE COULD MOVE OUTSIDE OF IT.

God, my only regret is that I can't write this in crayon for you.

So, all you are getting annoyed about is the fact Dash didn't do it in the right way then?

syanticraven wrote:

puma713 wrote:

syanticraven wrote:Your rulebook says he cant measure your stuff.

Yes he cant literally take out his measuring tape and check distances. He also cant do it himself unless declaring.

But it isnt illegal if he comes across the information in his measuring of his own units.

For example. I can fire 30", I declare firing at your unit, it is within 30", this must be illegal as I then have measured the proximity of YOUR unit?

Son I do not mean to be rude but please smack yourself in the face if you answer yes to the above.

I don't get how that's even pertinent. The rulebook explicitly allows you - in fact, makes you - measure range for shooting. It does not do the same for your opponent's movement/charge range in your movement phase.

Did you take a blind eye to this or do you not like to see the truth?

He wanted to move a direction so measured. He changed his mind. He then measured again to see that you where within his movement range = legal

So then any unit of person A that can move into contact with Person Bs unit is then effectively measured their opponents range (by measuring their own range and seeing they are in range) and is therefore making an illegal move. According to the opposite side of this argument.

Ahh, so now it's pretty proven that you haven't read this thread at all.

He did nothing that you describe here. That was not at all what happened. Read the thread again to see that he even told me he was measuring to my unit to use that info to determine my move/charge range.

Sheesh, I thought we were at least discussing the same thread, turns you, you weren't the whole time. Please, re-read, so we can at least be making points about THIS particular post.



Clay

Primarch wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:
I smell someone who is complaining about something perfectly legal, that hurt them in a game.
I agree with Gwar!

Did you even read the batrep? He had a problem with it before it even affected him or the game. It's not like he is coming back and complainig about it now. He had a serious issue with it as soon as Dash laid down his tape measure.

Also, I never started a thread talking about this. Dash has started 2 threads where HE brought this up. Please stop trolling and pay attention to the thread or stop wasting our time with your posts. If the question is asked, certainly I can come here and defend my position, yes?



Clay

Sure, he may have felt the need to have been justified by the community...talk more about it...put you down....any of the above?

But complaining about something legal at the game...that happened, is over, is a bit pointless. If you have an issue and want to fix it, then contact the TO and get something done. Talk on Dakka is cheap.

I read the batrep, and all I am seeing now is one person wanting to feel justified and beating a dead horse, while the other complaining about a legal move that he disagrees with.

And yes, as a note: calling someone a Troll, TFG, etc. *does* violate Dakka rules.

Gwar! wrote:So, all you are getting annoyed about is the fact Dash didn't do it in the right way then?

No, I am annoyed that he measured my move/charge range, and that is clearly illegal.



Clay

Clay, I'm sorry, but the rules are clear cut here. If your unit is within the model's movement range there's no reason why he shouldn't use that information to his advantage. I'd expect it.

Che-Vito wrote:

Primarch wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:
I smell someone who is complaining about something perfectly legal, that hurt them in a game.
I agree with Gwar!

Did you even read the batrep? He had a problem with it before it even affected him or the game. It's not like he is coming back and complainig about it now. He had a serious issue with it as soon as Dash laid down his tape measure.

Also, I never started a thread talking about this. Dash has started 2 threads where HE brought this up. Please stop trolling and pay attention to the thread or stop wasting our time with your posts. If the question is asked, certainly I can come here and defend my position, yes?



Clay

Sure, he may have felt the need to have been justified by the community...talk more about it...put you down....any of the above?

But complaining about something legal at the game...that happened, is over, is a bit pointless. If you have an issue and want to fix it, then contact the TO and get something done. Talk on Dakka is cheap.

I read the batrep, and all I am seeing now is one person wanting to feel justified and beating a dead horse, while the other complaining about a legal move that he disagrees with.

And yes, as a note: calling someone a Troll, TFG, etc. *does* violate Dakka rules.

Great to know, and good thing I didn't call you a Troll I guess. Again, read your rulebook, the move is not legal, sigh. I think I need to start a new thread, its apparent that most are just reading the title of this thread, nothing else, voting, then responding to the last page or so without any real thought into the issue.



Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Clay, I'm sorry, but the rules are clear cut here. If your unit is within the model's movement range there's no reason why he shouldn't use that information to his advantage. I'd expect it.

So basically if I have a 24 inch range movement, then I can pre-measure any of my opponents moves within that bubble? You'd be ok with that of course?


Makes Nob bikers and Seer councils a whole lot tougher I think.


Clay

Sorry I must be a fething joke.

Using his movement phase he measured the distance between his unit and urs, up to a max of 24" in turn allowing him to see how close you where to him.

That is what he done.

So when I said that he measured, changed his mind then measured to check his distance between the units. Now he didnt do that? he done something completely different?

I'm sorry but as this story is changing and I have tried to lay this out in a number of examples I'm leaving it.

Jurisdiction: Legal, information was gained during legal measurement.

Gwar! wrote:So, all you are getting annoyed about is the fact Dash didn't do it in the right way then?

My issue is that it breaks a rule. I pointed it out before and I'll do it again (and please keep in mind here, Gwar! that you and I agree on very little a lot of times, but I am using one of your own examples):

1. Is measuring 24" to your opponent legal? Yes.

2. Is measuring the movement of your opponent's model legal? No.

3. Is using your legal movement measurement to measure the movement of your opponent's model legal? Maybe, maybe not. Some say yes, some say no.

Very simply:

How many rules does your way break? 1 - you are not allowed to measure from my models to glean how far away you need to be to avoid them.

How many rules does my way break? 0.

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:So, all you are getting annoyed about is the fact Dash didn't do it in the right way then?

No, I am annoyed that he measured my move/charge range, and that is clearly illegal.



Clay

Wrong, while I will agree that it is very unsportsman like, it is within the rules, and he had every right to do it. So it is *not* clearly illegal.

***I have read all four pages, and the battle report, voted, then given my opinion.***

syanticraven wrote:Sorry I must be a fething joke.

Using his movement phase he measured the distance between his unit and urs, up to a max of 24" in turn allowing him to see how close you where to him.

That is what he done.

So when I said that he measured, changed his mind then measured to check his distance between the units. Now he didnt do that? he done something completely different?

I'm sorry but as this story is changing and I have tried to lay this out in a number of example I'm leaving it.

Jurisdiction: Legal, information was gained during legal measurement.

Nothing has changed, the story is the same. You just never bothered to read it. Glad to be rid of you if this is the best input you can give.



Clay

He measured to your unit, which is in his movement range, and then moved away from your unit, which put him out of charge range. What isn't there to get?

You're getting a little hot under the collar - go take a break from the internet for a while. There's no reason to get so frustrated about a game where little screaming men get moved around on plastic discs.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:So, all you are getting annoyed about is the fact Dash didn't do it in the right way then?

No, I am annoyed that he measured my move/charge range, and that is clearly illegal.



Clay

Wrong, while I will agree that it is very unsportsman like, it is within the rules, and he had every right to do it. So it is *not* clearly illegal.

***I have read all four pages, and the battle report, voted, then given my opinion.***

I have asked for the page so I can read this myself, and will again. What page is it that allows me to pre-measure my opponents move/charge range while in my movement phase? Please provide a page number. Page 11 references your ability to measure your movement, not mine.


Clay

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:So, all you are getting annoyed about is the fact Dash didn't do it in the right way then?

No, I am annoyed that he measured my move/charge range, and that is clearly illegal.

Again, I ask you, Are you getting annoyed because he did it the wrong way?

Had he done it correctly, would you still be miffed? If so, why?

Primarch wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:So, all you are getting annoyed about is the fact Dash didn't do it in the right way then?

No, I am annoyed that he measured my move/charge range, and that is clearly illegal.



Clay

Wrong, while I will agree that it is very unsportsman like, it is within the rules, and he had every right to do it. So it is *not* clearly illegal.

***I have read all four pages, and the battle report, voted, then given my opinion.***

I have asked for the page so I can read this myself, and will again. What page is it that allows me to pre-measure my opponents move/charge range while in my movement phase? Please provide a page number. Page 11 references your ability to measure your movement, not mine.


Clay

He was, however, measuring HIS movement NOT yours, so I see no problem here. I understand what you are saying, so there is no need to explain, though in the end, what he did was completely within the rules.

He did measure his movement, which happens to contain your move/charge range.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:He measured to your unit, which is in his movement range, and then moved away from your unit, which put him out of charge range. What isn't there to get?

You're getting a little hot under the collar - go take a break from the internet for a while. There's no reason to get so frustrated about a game where little screaming men get moved around on plastic discs.

Yeah, I am a bit irritated. What I think most of you are really missing for whatever reason, is that pre-measuring my stuff is not legal. He did not do what page 11 allows you to do. He specifically used his tape measure to measure my move/charge range, something not allowed by the rules.



So, to try another example.


If I have a Trukk that can move 19 inches with Red Paint. I decide to move in a straight line right through Impassible terrain, is that legal?

I mean, the rule that I can't move through impassible terrain doesnt apply because there is another rule saying I can move 19 inches, right? Right? Can we then say that its ok to ignore the rule about not being allowed to pre-measure my movement, simply because there is a rule that allows him to pre-measure his own stuff?


Shrug.


Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:He did measure his movement, which happens to contain your move/charge range.

No, he did not, he used the tape measure to plot my movement. There was no other reason that he stuck it out next to my battle wagon. His intent was to measure my movment, he said as much.



@Gwar- You have asked and I have answered, I will do so again.

If you use your tape measure to pre-measure my move, and that is the sole intent of your measurement, then you are cheating by the rules of 40k. That is what he did, and I am annoyed because he broke the rules. Clear enough?



Clay

it is legal to pre measure a units maximum movement from its base in any direction and decide to move how ever he wishes - if he uses that information obtained to protect himself it is completely legal (information is power in battle)