Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
The same argument could be made for Necron rules, Sisters metal miniatures and outdated rules, and Grey Knights outdated rules (strangely, GK players seem to prefer metal models...).
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Melissia wrote:The same argument could be made for Necron rules, Sisters metal miniatures and outdated rules, and Grey Knights outdated rules (strangely, GK players seem to prefer metal models...).
probably so other marine players can't take their would be plastic bitz and convert things into awesome marines, where everyone and their gene-father has a halberd for a ccw. They probably like feeling special or something =/
I guess that's the problem with minority armies - it's hard to judge which ones will sell come update time, because they never had very big followings. 'Crons, DE, and Sisters were all very uncommon armies in my gaming experiences ranging from the start of 3rd to now. Hard to say what'll change at update time. Crons need a bigger range and more variety in poses and bits. DE need a new range in general. Sisters/WH/DH just need a plastic range to begin with. All of them need new rules.
I'm thinking DE will probably be the initial big seller, but I'll need to see any new unit stats and special rules before I'm -completely- convinced on this. Locally though, there're a lot of people that're highly anticipating the Coke-Elves release
There's also a lot of people waiting for plastic Sisters in order to get into the army, too.
You can't really judge Sisters very well, because let's face it-- the second edition codex was at the end of second edition, and didn't have time to get any real following before third edition came out. The third edition Sisters codex was a half-assed, craptacular codex whose primary selling attribute (listed on the first page in fact) was that it could be combined with other armies-- not its own list, not its own fluff, not its own models. They have gotten almost no fluff that actually paints them as an army that wins battles, and they have very little variety in official paint schemes.
GW has done a piss-poor job of giving the army a chance to grow, so it's impossible to argue either way. I, for example, can only argue that there will be more people who are into the army when it's plastic than when it's metal, because most people prefer plastic. I can't argue whether or not they'll be into the fluff, because quite frankly the fluff isn't all that good. I like the army as a concept, but the fluff from GW and BL depicts the army as one that always loses, gets wiped out, or falls to chaos (even though they're supposed to be resistant to that!).
The Sisters need a re-imagining as far as their fluff goes. The martyrdom aspect hasn't worked out at all, quite frankly an army of martyrs isn't going to appeal to many people. An army of holy soldiers-- emphasizing BOTH of those words, the holy aspect AND the soldier aspect-- I think would get more people into the army.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2010/06/19 21:02:20
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Think I covered the need for plastics... I think...
Metallifan wrote:Sisters/WH/DH just need a plastic range to begin with.
Yep. I did.
As far as Codi go, the same could be said for any of the three. Sisters aren't exactly the mangy small dog that GW kicks for sharts N giggles while the other two small dogs get plush pillows and only eat Caesar brand. Matter of fact, until recently, all three Codi were pretty much forgotten. By no means are any of them the sole victim of neglect. All three armies never had a chance to really "Grow".
DE Fluff was pretty shallow to begin with. It pretty much steals from Eldar Fluff until the fall, and then Stagnates because they're just sitting around shooting up. stealing, pillaging, and jacking off until the present setting.
Necron fluff was sort of intentionally left blank at first because they were supposed to be mysterious. Slowly, more was revealed about them and their fluff became more solid, but still, a lot of it was little more than "Necrons wake up. Necrons kill everything in sight. Necrons turn to consuming all non-sentient life on the planet. Necrons board Spaceships and move to next planet. Rinse, repeat."
There're some aspects of the Sororitas fluff that works. Some that doesn't. Same could be said for anything though (For example, why are Ultramarines impossible to freaking defeat? How has Abaddon NOT broken past Cadia yet?)
I think one of the biggest issues for the Sisters line is that they'll always be seen as "Female Space Marines". Sure, by fluff there couldn't be a more inaccurate summary. But a lot of people (GW Included, most likely) see them that way for obvious reasons. That's why I doubt that even whatever update they get won't really help much. They'd pretty much need a complete and utter overhaul from page one.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2010/06/19 21:59:38
Just wait till you can get 3 monoliths in one heavy support slot...the 9 mono drop doom army is comming!
"...THIS IS THE INTERWEBZ! Where people aren't about to let the lack of having the slightest idea what they are talking about slow them down one bit! ;-).....And they'll get angry at others for disagreeing." - jmurph
"Disclaimer: I am not one of those who is going to tell you that you must change your list to find success. If these are the models and the list that you want to play, then play them." - Feldmarshal Goehring
metallifan wrote:Necron fluff was sort of intentionally left blank at first because they were supposed to be mysterious. Slowly, more was revealed about them and their fluff became more solid, but still, a lot of it was little more than "Necrons wake up. Necrons kill everything in sight. Necrons turn to consuming all non-sentient life on the planet. Necrons board Spaceships and move to next planet. Rinse, repeat."
Yep. Which means their fluff says they actually win battles. Actually one of the first bits of Necron fluff was Sanctuary 101.
It's very hard to sell an army that never wins... all of the major fluff for Sisters involves them being wiped out, destroyed, corrupted, and often being idiotic through all of that. C:WH almost seems to brag about how the Order of Our Martyred Lady was all but wiped out on Armageddon, as if somehow GW is proud that the army cannot achieve victory.
People don't want to side with the losers in a battle...
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2010/06/19 22:49:21
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Anarchyman99 wrote:Just wait till you can get 3 monoliths in one heavy support slot...the 9 mono drop doom army is comming!
I'll only buy it if they can Deepstrike too
Melissia wrote:
metallifan wrote:Necron fluff was sort of intentionally left blank at first because they were supposed to be mysterious. Slowly, more was revealed about them and their fluff became more solid, but still, a lot of it was little more than "Necrons wake up. Necrons kill everything in sight. Necrons turn to consuming all non-sentient life on the planet. Necrons board Spaceships and move to next planet. Rinse, repeat."
Yep. Which means their fluff says they actually win battles. Actually one of the first bits of Necron fluff was Sanctuary 101.
It's very hard to sell an army that never wins... all of the major fluff for Sisters involves them being wiped out, destroyed, corrupted, and often being idiotic through all of that. C:WH almost seems to brag about how the Order of Our Martyred Lady was all but wiped out on Armageddon, as if somehow GW is proud that the army cannot achieve victory.
People don't want to side with the losers in a battle...
The problem with 'Crons always winning is that it makes for a dull read. You know what's going to happen, and you know that they're harder to kill than "dat waskewy Wawboss" (I like to imagine Yarrick talks with Fudd-speech sometimes. Cracks me up )
Yea the Ordos Militant is dull in the same way for the opposite reason. Hence why I said that if GW doesn't want their tabletop element to go like Squat-flavoured Scooby-Snacks, they're gonna need to start all over from page one on them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/19 22:56:06
You mean Orders Militant... the "Holy Ordos" are the groups within the Inquisition (three major groups), while the Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas are, well, part of their own organization, separate from the Inquisition.
The pedant in me couldn't help it...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/19 23:18:06
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
I know you aren't As I said, the inner pedant and all.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Crons has always been a very boring army and I think that will stick with them until GW makes an effort to make them interesting. Hell they were more interesting when they were just an article than they were as an actual codex army. DE on the other hand usually win big or lose hard and people usually remember the wins than the losses. Sisters I would actually like to play them if they had an actually army with plastic and none of that goofy stuff that came with their 3rd edition codex.
Now that rumors are going around about new DE people are getting pumped for them, I've had people come ask me if I knew anything about them since I tend to keep my ear open to any DE related stuff, I mean guys who always played space marines and such.
Anarchyman99 wrote:Just wait till you can get 3 monoliths in one heavy support slot...the 9 mono drop doom army is comming!
I'll only buy it if they can Deepstrike too
Melissia wrote:
metallifan wrote:Necron fluff was sort of intentionally left blank at first because they were supposed to be mysterious. Slowly, more was revealed about them and their fluff became more solid, but still, a lot of it was little more than "Necrons wake up. Necrons kill everything in sight. Necrons turn to consuming all non-sentient life on the planet. Necrons board Spaceships and move to next planet. Rinse, repeat."
Yep. Which means their fluff says they actually win battles. Actually one of the first bits of Necron fluff was Sanctuary 101.
It's very hard to sell an army that never wins... all of the major fluff for Sisters involves them being wiped out, destroyed, corrupted, and often being idiotic through all of that. C:WH almost seems to brag about how the Order of Our Martyred Lady was all but wiped out on Armageddon, as if somehow GW is proud that the army cannot achieve victory.
People don't want to side with the losers in a battle...
The problem with 'Crons always winning is that it makes for a dull read. You know what's going to happen, and you know that they're harder to kill than "dat waskewy Wawboss" (I like to imagine Yarrick talks with Fudd-speech sometimes. Cracks me up )
Yea the Ordos Militant is dull in the same way for the opposite reason. Hence why I said that if GW doesn't want their tabletop element to go like Squat-flavoured Scooby-Snacks, they're gonna need to start all over from page one on them.
Dammit metallifan, count me as sigged 10 times.
As for Crons, I personally think they could, with ease, make them an exciting army. I mean really, they are pretty close to being the "Oh man they are so GOTH...... WE HAVE TO PLAY THEM!" Or the first army that hot topic sells. Im sure Im stretching it a bit, but they can be, fluff wise hardcore awesome. Their gods eat stars, they are friggin hard to kill, come back to life, their weapons just melt things.
I just hope that when its update time, they get a good one, not over powered but a good one. Adding a few things to their list because some people are so bored with them for some reason, and giving them a decent resculpt maybe? I personally like the look of the Necron warriors, but some of the others maybe? Definitely the Immortals for one, I mean alot of people think Immortals are where its at, and no one buys the metal ones, they are ALWAYS converted warriors and for good reason
You know, just to jump in here with my 2 cents. I like my sisters army. Of all the armies I have and have dabbled in, I think I have had the most fun playing them. It is a ridiculously amusing army to play. Sometimes I have been stomped, other times I have beaten the stuffing out of people. I would be no means characterize it as an army that only loses. Admittedly, I dont have the depth of background some appear to here (Mistress of minis most notably,she appears to really know them quite well!), but I just dont see them as an army that loses all the time, on the table top or in the fluff. Maybe they lose more in the fluff, but I have used them to quite a bit of success gaming. And I am a half-ass player at best.
I really want to see how the =][= turns out, i have been thinking about adding an inquisitor into my guard army but put it off thinking i will lose them in the new codex if they remove the allies thing which people seem to think is very likely to happen.
1 - I love the Inqusition, the Shinny Space Marines do little for me but the crazy guys in dresses with their bondage ninjas and freaky midgets are pure win. Would hate to see them go away. I won't even add up how many models would be invalidated.
2 - If they're really getting a minidex, and it is a minidex NOT apoc rules or optional rules then hurray! I think GW's golden age was 2000-2005 when they practically had a new army list in every WD. I can't imagine why they stopped that.
This.
A mini-dex is better than combined one or none at all.
"Praise Be To The Omissiah!"
"Three things make the Empire great: Faith, Steel and Gunpowder!"
Azarath Metrion Zinthos
Expect my posts to have a bazillion edits. I miss out letters, words, sometimes even entire sentences in my points and posts.
Melissia wrote:It's very hard to sell an army that never wins... all of the major fluff for Sisters involves them being wiped out, destroyed, corrupted, and often being idiotic through all of that. C:WH almost seems to brag about how the Order of Our Martyred Lady was all but wiped out on Armageddon, as if somehow GW is proud that the army cannot achieve victory.
People don't want to side with the losers in a battle...
I will only once take part in the usual Sororitas off topic discussion:
1.) As I told you repeatedly, a Sororitas army wins in the novel "Grey Knights", and Soul Storm presents them in a good light as well. So please stop spreading false information that they always lose.
2.) People play IG, people play Elysian drop troops. And IIRC, even FW has to deliver just one battle, where their own IG chapter is not losing utterly.
grizgrin wrote:You know, just to jump in here with my 2 cents. I like my sisters army. Of all the armies I have and have dabbled in, I think I have had the most fun playing them. It is a ridiculously amusing army to play. Sometimes I have been stomped, other times I have beaten the stuffing out of people. I would be no means characterize it as an army that only loses. Admittedly, I dont have the depth of background some appear to here (Mistress of minis most notably,she appears to really know them quite well!), but I just dont see them as an army that loses all the time, on the table top or in the fluff. Maybe they lose more in the fluff, but I have used them to quite a bit of success gaming. And I am a half-ass player at best.
In tabletop, my sisters army wins more than it loses (appx 1.35:1 win loss ratio, with the new IG-- before 5E C:IG, it was 1.5:1. It's hard for the army to deal with lots of autocannons and AP3 large blasts mostly).
But in fluff?
Let's look at examples of fluff:
Armageddon: Wiped out by Orks (total loss for one Order, the other Order forced to withdraw due to the Flesh Tearers' blood rage)
Sanctuary 101: Wiped out by Necrons (total loss)
Ophelia VII: Wiped out by Tyranids (phyrric victory: managed to let the civilian population evacuate)
Sons of Malice fluff: Wiped out by the Sons of Malice (total loss, sacrificed to the dark gods)
Duty Calls: Wiped out by Tyranids (total loss)
Cain's Last Stand: Wiped out by Chaos (total loss: Entire order of Sisters turns to Chaos, is then purged)
Redemption Corps: Wiped out by Chaos (total loss: Entire order of Sisters turns to Chaos, is then purged)
Grey Knights: Wiped out by Chaos (phyrric victory: no survivors, only a few Grey Knights live)
Imperial Armour: Wiped out by rogue Inquisitor (total loss)
Aside from C:SoB and C:WH, which both list a few fluff bits where they aren't utterly destroyed and actually manage to achieve a victory that doesn't wipe them out completely, Sisters are treated remarkably poorly by GW. It's as if they got the Sisters confused with the Lamentors.
Kroothawk: Yes, you did indeed help prove my point. Even when the Sisters are allowed to win, they don't really win because they're all dead.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/06/20 15:52:07
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
reds8n wrote: Andy Hoare left GW a month or two back. he's currently doing various bits of freelance work -- including some stuff for/with FFG and their Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader lines.
and he is also continuing to do some work for BL, he is now going to be the author of " The Hunt for Voldorius" from the "Space Marine Battles" series out next year.
AFAIK he was/had been doing the work on the Beastman book, i don't know how much of the final thing will be his work or others.
Graham Davey also left around the same time as Alessio. I believe he is also going to do some freelance work for FFG.
..people after really well painted armies should maybe keep their eyes on ebay...
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Grey Knights: Wiped out by Chaos (phyrric victory: no survivors, only a few Grey Knights live)
Kroothawk: Yes, you did indeed help prove my point. Even when the Sisters are allowed to win, they don't really win because they're all dead.
Too bad that I am persistent and have the book right beside me. Here the relevant quotes from the end of "Grey Knight":
Spoiler:
The surviving Sisters of the Bloody Rose added their firepower, too, their one remaining Exorcist tank sending rockets streaking into Ghargatuloth. (...)
The Sisters joined in, intoning prayers of righteous wrath as they blasted Ghargatuloth to pulp with their bolter fire and the Sisters Superior laid into it with their chainswords.(...)
The Sisters of the Bloody Rose were recovering their own dead, and Alaric had watched as they took away the body of their canoness from what remained of the steps up to the tomb.
(pages 404-406 with Ghargatuloth being the final enemy)
So no wipe out, but a hard and glorious victory.
Guess my memory is better than your reading skills Maybe I should check the other sources that you mention as well at one time to stop the whining.
Still, suffering is a major theme of 40k mankind in general and ecclesiarchy in specific. So it is fluffy.
And don't let me tell you about the suffering that the Eldar (and Eldar fans) had to endure by C.S.Goto and others (Goto having a record of torturing an already injured female Farseer for 180 pages until she is finally allowed to die -> "Dawn of War: Tempest" , with Harlequins always ending in "piles of mutilated bodies" in no time, no joke! ). Eldar Avatar killings are a running gag among BL and GW authors, with Fulgrim choking one to death even while they don't even breath!
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2010/06/20 20:28:54
Id rather see Sisters get the first new codex in 6ed than the last in 5ed. If I recall correctly sisters have always been in the last codex before a new edition, making allot of their rules obsolete in just a few months time.
Has sisters ever gotten more than 6months of playtime in a current edition before a new one comes out?
Im starting to feel that a new codex would be a complete waste, if its due in 18month time how much time does that leave before the next edition? Are we then to wait for until 8ed before the codex is updated again? and obsolete when 9ed comes out the month after.
Kroothawk wrote:Guess my memory is better than your memory
Fixed. I don't have the book in front of me to look it up, and was going off of memory
Regardless, one example in your favor does not prove your point when the overwhelming number of other examples says otherwise. If you do wish to research those other ones that I mentioned, go ahead and do so-- I'm pulling them from memory, but a quick search on the net and on lexicanum confirms the majority of them to me.
Nor does C.S.Goto's abuse of Eldar make any difference-- I mean seriously, does anyone even bother reading that author's trash anymore? Sure, most authors sacrifice a bit of fluff to tell a story better, but Goto doesn't tell a good story AND he sacrifices a crapton of fluff. I certainly don't disagree that they abuse the Avatar too much, but the fact that GW is idiotic in how they treat one aspect of their fluff doesn't mean that they are not also idiotic in how they treat another aspect.
The faction losing battles doesn't bother me, that's part of war, and part of 40k. The lack of victories, however does. How the feth do Sisters supposedly have veterans if they never win battles? Celestians and Seraphim are units composed entirely of veterans, and veterans often lead squads (and indeed, Celestians and Seraphim have the skill and agility to match an Astartes in close combat)-- yet so frequently they're just wiped out.
Sure, you can mention a single book where they win battles, but let me emphasize that properly for you: ONE. SINGLE. BOOK. That is no victory for your side of the argument, it only emphasizes mine. Even if you include Faith and Fire (which is arguable, but I can see why one would take that position), it still leaves the vast majority of fluff with the Sisters as the losers. And so the entire point of my argument, which you seemed to have missed, is that GW really needs to rethink how they treat the Sisters, and other older factions. They need to have them actually win battles occasionally. I would also argue they need to have a piece of fluff where an Eldar Avatar tears half a company of Marines apart before it's taken down.
That way people think "Damn, that is badass! I want one of THOSE in my army!" Not "Heh, he got b****slapped by Calgar". Same with Sisters-- currently GW's focus on Sisters is martyrdom . Losing. Phyrric victories. Being destroyed. That needs to change to help the faction grow.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2010/06/20 21:41:03
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Kroothawk wrote:Guess my memory is better than your reading skills
Is being rude in a discussion about the fictional setting of a game of toy soldiers better than being allowed to continue posting?
Seriously, folks, I'm going to make this a general warning: When discussing the make-believe universe inhabited by your toy soldiers, keep it civil. We've had too many discussions lately descend into insults and snarkiness. The 40K fluff is twisted, confused and (sometimes deliberately) contradictory. It is perfectly understandable, and allowable, for someone to have a different opinion on it to your own. If you think someone is incorrect on a point of fluff, and for the sake of the stability of the universe feel that this must be corrected, do so in a polite fashion.
If you can not participate in this sort of discussion and stay civil, I would strongly recommend just staying out of this sort of discussion.
The mix of zealotry, faith, and martyrdom is the defining characteristic of the SOB.
The gothic "nuns w/ guns" aesthetic and the whole "willing to die in service to the Emperor" vibe is what makes them so appealing personally.
I just wish GW would give them their proper due and do a full blown Codex: ecclessirachy/Armies of Faith. I want zealot rabble with flamers and mob weapons, crusading Confessors, frothing priests, penitent engines, arco-flaggellants, SOB, etc. rushing to their deaths in the name of the Emperor...
This is such an important part of the 40K fluff, grimdark imagery and character of the Imperium.
GW's refusal to do a proper army of this type with SOB at the core is criminal...
SOB are most likely gonna go the way of LATD and Genestealer cult, and even if they dont I expect they will get shoehorned into a new =I= codex.
No thanks GW, I'm sick of waiting to be let down and have started selling off my SOB collection...
Defiler wrote:It seems to me that all the recent sister threads have erupted in pseudo-flamewars.
And what is the common thread?....
Well, it's difficult to keep up the quality level when focusing on quantity. Stalin even had problems.
....and lo!.....The Age of Sigmar came to an end when Saint Veetock and his hamster legions smote the false Sigmar and destroyed the bubbleverse and lead the true believers back to the Old World.
An Allies supplement along the same vein as Apoc/CoD/Battle Missions/Planetstrike would be a good idea actually.
It creates a sub-game and an optional set of rules for allowing the mixing of armies and allied units.
that would be a good place to put
- vast imperial forces led by Inquisitors
- rules for combining real daemons with chaos marines (and maybe latd making a return)
- expanded harlequin forces working with either eldar or de - kroot mercs working with either orks or tau
- expanded alien races for tau
nids and necrons get left out in the cold though
As for popularity, DE were a dud on arrival but they've stuck around. Most DE players like their fluff and concept but want more of it. Their playstule is well defined and hard as nails. Every player hates their model range. Give them a new "good" model range and you'll get sales.
GK were very popular at launch, at least in my area, but people quicly cottoned onto the fact that the army was pants. Aside from a few units kept as allies all the GK armies got flogged on Ebay. New rules that make them competitive would go a long way to raising sales since they're models are popular and the fluff is popular.
Necrons were phenomenally popular at launch. I think practically every gamer at my store bought a Necron army at the end of 3rd. They then settled down into a big army but got progressively less popular as their rules got worse, and worse and worse.
Sisters have largely been unpopular because they have no plastics and require a lot of models to play. That means they're expensive. Plus they're girls, eww, cooties! Not my own opinion, i love sisters, but the girly army stigma and high cost has kept them fairly niche. they have great fluff, great models and great rules though. I think if given some plastics they'd sell much better than they do presently.
)
: 4000 Points 
: 3000 Points 
: 2000 Points 