Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Laughing Man wrote:
On topic, however, it just doesn't make much sense for GW to target established players as long as they follow the business model of re-releasing the same old thing every couple years. Since most vets already own everything they need for their army, they'll spend a hell of a lot less than a new player who needs to drop a grand or so to get into the game.

I personally feel this is utter monkey-dross of the highest order and if GW really do genuinely pursue this as a marketing ploy, then more fool them. Case in point - recent BA release. I already had a substantial BA force (~5000 points), however this didnt stop me from purchasing the new units and replacing old, tired units that were showing their age. I probably spent as much, if not more than a 'newbie' buying BA for the first time. If GW honestly think that veteran gamers have no further interest in making new purchases, then they are truly misguided.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the only truly new kit that was released with the BA codex the Sanguinary Guard? Sure, there's the Baal and Death Company kits, but those are both resculpts rather than actually new. So unless you're building a Dante list or replacing all your outdated sculpts, I'm not entirely sure how you'd be spending more than someone who still needs a couple dozen tactical and assault marines, rhinos, land raiders, etc.

RandyMcStab wrote:
I would disagree, 2nd Ed Epic was a really big game, lots of coverage in WD, new units released often, I would see armies in the windows of shops all the time. Space Hulk was big too, hardback expansion book, multiple expansions, lots of articles in the Journal (harlequin hulk FTW) 2nd Ed BloodBowl was huge for a time, all those Freebooterz on the back of WD, lots of local leagues and so on. All of these systems whilst not as big as the main 2 were very well supported and enjoyed high profiles, not just a page in WD once a year, go back and flip through some old WD's.

The later stage releases where they did a group together was less successful Man O War, original BFG etc however they were very well supported and had a lot of coverage in WD.

Nowadays they really are the ginger step child....

IIRC from the last few interviews and the like with JJ at its absolute peak Epic was less than 10% of GWs sales, that's less than the Space Marine range and Chaos Balck paint.

All those big and expensive to produce expansions..yeah, I'll refer you to my earlier comments.

By the end of the Fanatic experiment, the total sales figures for the rnage was on or around the 5% mark IIRC.

Now I agree that GW haven't handled this situation well, but there are reasons for what they did.

..dumb ones perhaps but there you go !

Personally I don't want them to target us as a specific group (they are already far too pushy at times). I would just like to be treated with the same level of respect, and be given the same level of service as the noob who wanders in off the street, with no clue what their doing.

It would just be nice to walk in and not be treated like I am doing something wrong by wanting to play with toy soldiers. (I know some may think it's strange that a 28 yr old wants to play with toy soldiers).

I would have thought that it would have made more sense to welcome anybody who is willing to spend money in store instead of focusing on, what is in reality, quite a small group of customers, who on the whole probably don't get much further in the hobby than buying AoBR.

Like all things I thought little and often would have been better than getting fast results with no long term prospects.

I wonder if GW should shrink the amount of stores and just have very large stores, with big battle bunkers in major towns & cities. Perhaps mini Warhammer World's? They could keep a full range of stock on the shelves, have a good demo area and a big size bunker (perhaps charge to use it).

It's getting to the point where their reach exceeds their grasp.

Many single man stores that only open when the kids finish school = good

Fewer store with multiple staff open all day providing service to all = bad

Justicar Alaric wrote:Personally I don't want them to target us as a specific group (they are already far too pushy at times). I would just like to be treated with the same level of respect, and be given the same level of service as the noob who wanders in off the street, with no clue what their doing.

It would just be nice to walk in and not be treated like I am doing something wrong by wanting to play with toy soldiers. (I know some may think it's strange that a 28 yr old wants to play with toy soldiers).

I would have thought that it would have made more sense to welcome anybody who is willing to spend money in store instead of focusing on, what is in reality, quite a small group of customers, who on the whole probably don't get much further in the hobby than buying AoBR.

Like all things I thought little and often would have been better than getting fast results with no long term prospects.

I'm not quite quite sure what you mean. As far as I'm aware most complaints toward GW stores concern their sometimes pushy selling tactics. I doubt a GW store made you feel wrong for buying their own products, I just don't follow the logic of that happening.

The problem from some views has to do with their diminished PR with some veterans. In the end, whether people recognize it or not the people who are vocal on Dakka and of those who threaten to quit are quite honestly a small percentage even of people who have been in the hobby for many years. From a business standpoint however it is their outdated business model that is preventing them from reaping more profit for the 100+ mil they pull in in revenue. The current model is way too inefficient. If they were to streamline it they could increase revenue while reaping a higher profit margin. A company of their size and employee payroll should be able to put out books at a far faster rate and their sculptors should be able to put out new models and gap-bridging models on a consistent rate rather than the trickle of releases they often do.

I think the problem, particularly in the UK, is that GW have shifted their focus onto opening as many single man stores as they can, and as I have found out personally the smaller independent retailers will not stock GW products if there is a GW store near them.

This has lead to a limit on the purchasing options.

Although having single man stores works well on paper the level of service you can expect is considerably less than it was 5 years ago, back when GW would have multiple staff at one location.

Laughing Man wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the only truly new kit that was released with the BA codex the Sanguinary Guard? Sure, there's the Baal and Death Company kits, but those are both resculpts rather than actually new. So unless you're building a Dante list or replacing all your outdated sculpts, I'm not entirely sure how you'd be spending more than someone who still needs a couple dozen tactical and assault marines, rhinos, land raiders, etc.

Lets see: I bought a Sanguinary Guard, a Sanguinator, an Astorath, Death Company kit, A new Baal Pred, a new Dread and a new LRC, as well as Drop Pods (which I didn't have any of before). Added to that, I also bought newer versions of tac marines, rhinos and termies to replace some older and tired 3rd ed ones. I agree that not every pre existing owner will have the same level of buy-in or desire to replace old units, but even so, it is still a fair chunk of cash as a minimum. Still indicates that veteran gamers are willing and do continue to spend if they are sufficiently motivated.

Justicar Alaric wrote:I think the problem, particularly in the UK, is that GW have shifted their focus onto opening as many single man stores as they can,

It's happening on mainland Europe as well... Operation Market Garden II I worry.

As a newb player, I'd just like to say that I always felt very welcomed in my local GW store. I'm not sure if this was what this thread was originally about, but I've always seen lots of veteran players in the back of the store painting and assembling models while at the same time happily giving out advice to the newer players.

I'm not sure if this is the exception or the rule, but in my area there's only one GW for about....30 or so miles. It's always fairly happening with quite a few people on staff at all times. I personally have never felt overly pressured into buying anything, not have I seen something like that happen.

Of course, I could just be the exception to the rule....but just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

reds8n wrote:

Justicar Alaric wrote:I think the problem, particularly in the UK, is that GW have shifted their focus onto opening as many single man stores as they can,

It's happening on mainland Europe as well... Operation Market Garden II I worry.

And what's the betting that GW will use the further cost cutting measures as a way of 'fudging' their figures to say 'hey, we're still profitable!'

I'm sorry to say but GW USA is better than GW Europe

This is because in the US you seem to have a larger network of independent retailers whereas in the UK there is a lack of these stores which means GW can do pretty much what it chooses as there is little competition to worry about.

The few independents we do have don't tend to lean towards the gaming side of things simply because there is no money in it, or perceived to be no money in it.

Maybe if there was a larger number of independents offering the same facilities as GW stores we wouldn't be in this situation.

Although to defend the community we do seem to have more gaming clubs

Justicar Alaric wrote:

This is because in the US you seem to have a larger network of independent retailers whereas in the UK there is a lack of these stores which means GW can do pretty much what it chooses as there is little competition to worry about.

This is largely due to the fact that GW has not expanded into US in the same way that they have in the UK/Europe. We used to have a similar situation here; lots of independents and a smattering of 'official' GW stores. However, GW have aggressively targeted the modelling/hobbying community and opened lots of stores and generally been very expansive, forcing a lot of independents to close, especially as they cant maintain discounts and compete on price/profit. This hasn't happened in the US yet; GW stores have not mushroomed in the same way (yet).

However, all this expansionism is at a price; GW UK have found that they are struggling to meet the increased staff and store costs, hence the wave of cut backs.

ok, so as a veteran gamer, what do you expect as support?

New stuff for existing armies... Check
Better product... Check
Continued support of older games... Ok, half check

I'm a very veteran gamer (over 20 years) I'm happy. The store I use pretty much weekly is friendly, supportive, the managers know me by name, and the family, and the only slight bug bear is the new staff can sometimes be a bit more pushy, but they learn otherwise soon.

However, my local is Warhammer World.

As a financial model, focusing on new customers while maintaining the old is good practice, GW did go very kid oriented about 5-10 years ago, but recently, I'm pretty happy the balance is not too bad!

Druidic wrote:As a financial model, focusing on new customers while maintaining the old is good practice, GW did go very kid oriented about 5-10 years ago, but recently, I'm pretty happy the balance is not too bad!

Yeap that is the reason I have not played a game or been to a GW store in 5+ years. But that has changed and the store seems to have more time for the longtime player where I live. But the new manager is a pain in the and I got myself banned for a month (long story not telling) but he's not there on ther late night for vets so I still go

I am a new player. I go to a FLGS filled with veterans, but there's constantly new players. Maybe it's only at GW shops, but my store is fine.

Also, I believe I have paid GW prices a grand total of once, I really wanted the Manticore the day it came out.

Scrazza wrote:...only the young and inexperienced. I'm only 15 but I have been doing this hobby for about 7 years and I don't count myself amongst the young and inexperienced. But the problem is, In my local GW there are a lot of extremely young coming I know a few who are 6 and even 7 years old. When they want to play against you, you have to say "No...

Ahh scrazza. I'm a bit older than 15 and have been gaming for over 20 years. Youngsters, is a perspective term, thankfully there are still some gamers in the stores senior to me.

Reading your post made me smile.

The longer one stays in the hobby the longer one realizes the business model of it is dependent on new players, which are...

younger

...and yes, I think the whole hobby is generally for teenagers, those of us who still like it and are beyond those tender times are the eccentric old guard. I don't expect GW will ever market to the older crowd, and certainly they will never stop retiring rule sets. WHFB 8th edition?

8?

right

tallshortguy wrote:As much as GW has people frustrated, them going bust will most likely move the war gaming industry itself back many, many years. People forget that they have created an IP in 40k that spans many video games, books, and now a movie.

Games Workshop might go, the 40K IP would not. Someone else would buy it.

The reason why GW ought to cater for the 'veteran' crowd is marketing.

If you ask people how they got into wargaming, 9 times out of 10 it will be because someone they already knew (friend/relative/etc) introduced them to it.

Word of mouth is far more important for a niche hobby than any amount of advertising and that is what the vets provide. The longer you stay in the hobby the more likely it is that you will find yourself introducing other people (thus doing GW marketing department's job for them).Also if you are sufficiently happy that you have stuck with GW for many years, you're more likely to have positive things to say about them that if you got hacked off after a couple of years and left. In this case you're more likely to tell prospective gamers not to bother (or at least not to bother with GW )

From a financial point of view, GW has to get new players. What they've never realised is that the best way to get them is to keep their exisiting customer base as happy as posssible for as long as possible. This means fixing the things that vets complain about - poor rule-writing, patchy event support, relative cost (when compared with other manufacturors of minis, tools, paint, rules, etc).

If GW were prepared to bite the bullet they would see a short-term loss from the extra investment turn into a long-term sustained profit. Unfortunately, shareholders won't let you contemplate losses under any circumstances, even if its against their own long-term interests, hence we have the current economic model of cost cuts and price rises. It will sustain profitability - but not for ever...

Is there such a thing as a good online discount anymore?From what I've seen on amazon an average saving of 50 pence does not scream good deal to me.
Kids have the attention span of gnats!They focus on one thing for a while,then onto something new all done in a relatively short period of time.If GW and the wargaming world are lucky out of ten kids buying into the hobby one may stick around long term.GW need to realise that veterans are the 1 in 10.
The last thing I bought was the Blood Angels codex when it arrived and thats it,I've bought no more.Yes I have many armies and technically do not need to buy any more,but would like to.Sadly GW raising prices again stopped me.What gamers in the UK should note is the proposed raising of the vat to 20%.
From what I've seen and experienced at game clubs,kids are not popular simply because they are unable to focus on the actual game.One game I tried to play against a 10 year old,he spent most of the time trying to break my blast markers,he had no inkling of the rules yet had a pile of figures and vehicles and was genuinely surprised when I told him he could only have ten man marine squads and not 11!
Why do GW see kids as the newblood?Veterans are any player in the game for the long run;all we ask is that we are not treated like crap.Be fair in your pricing and we will buy.Treat us like contempt and we don't.Simple