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With the entire world in the grip of economic uncertainty has GW forgotten about the veteran gamers who still enjoy their products?

I can remember a time not all that long ago when veteran gamers were actively encouraged to game in store, as this would help the staff in introducing new gamers (age = experience?).

Not only this but most stores also had a dedicated veterans night where older gamers could have a game without the worry of kids (we have them at home to deal with we don't need to baby sit other peoples when we try to enjoy our hobby.).

I just want to know what happened to GW to make them shun us like social lepers? Do older gamers no deserve the same levels of service as newer younger gamers?

This is not really a new phenomenon; GW have been ignoring veteran gamers for years - look at the lack of support for specialist (read older) games and the fallout over the Blood Bowl living rule book fiasco, the C & D drama etc. They have been treating veteran gamers with disdain for years. I cant help but think it isn't a good strategy for long term success but I am sure one or more of the usual GW supporters will pop up in this thread and offer reasons why it is a good thing. GW seem to think that all they need is a continuous flow of new gamers 'buy in' and there initial purchases.

It certainly helps to have new gamers come in buy stuff. It's a smart move to focus heavily on doing that and, like it or not, Games Workshop is succeding. They're making money.

Of course, if they didn't make every veteran gamer go, 'Screw this, I can buy second hand and play at my friends place' they'd probably make even more money. The problem is veterans know all the tricks...they have plenty of models and supplies, and usually know how and where to get more. Even where to play the games. In other words, vets don't need GW to play there games.

Hence there focus on the newer players. Which is still a poor choice. You'd get those gamers and there wallets back in the shops and if they only buy the odd pot of paint or a couple of blisters? Still better than them buying another companies paints and re-doing a sercond hand model. Each individual doesn't spend much but twenty veterans per store, each doing it...well. Suddenly the numbers are worth looking at.

At least, that's my take on things.

Jon Garrett wrote:It certainly helps to have new gamers come in buy stuff. It's a smart move to focus heavily on doing that and, like it or not, Games Workshop is succeding. They're making money.

I'm not sure they are doing as well as people think or perceive though. There was some back and forth on here when the last financial figures were released and they seemed to show a worrying trend. The bottom line looked good; GW made a profit however this all came about due to some fairly draconian cost cutting and laying off staff which can't be sustained year on year. They compensated for falling sales by raising prices which is never a viable long term plan.

Why am I not surprised? I have the horrible feeling they're going to end up turning to veteran gamers when they get desperate, only to find they're no one left since they've all gotten and annoyed and gone done something else...

Laying off staff is already having an adverse effect on GW as most of the smaller stores are now only open about 50% of their previous hours.

Not only this but the staff they do have left are so stretched they no longer seem to care about anything other than trying to get cash out of you.

I just think they seem to have go their focus all wrong at the minute, we are currently only a few steps away from a SM cartoon with matching lunch boxes and action figures.

Possibly. There is a school of thought that is of the opinion that GW going bust is a good thing; they will sell their rights to another manufacturer who can continue the line and pay better attention to customer service. Regardless, I and many others like me, have voted with our feet and wallets. I love GW games; I refuse to pay GW prices and will not do so any longer.

I haven't seen this. It depends on which store you go to, I guess

I think it's mainly a UK thing as there is no real competitor for GW on the high street.

Other countries seem to have a healthy number of independent retailers with the same facilities as GW whereas in the UK there is a very limited number.

I think there are more FLGS's than you might think in the UK - there was one in town that I didn't know existed for years - it has since moved to just down the road from my house (about a 2 minute drive) - which is how I knew it existed - there were posters for D&D, 40K, etc covering the windows.

The sad thing is that unless you are in the network of gamers who go there it is often difficult to hear about where they are.

Justicar Alaric wrote:I think it's mainly a UK thing as there is no real competitor for GW on the high street.

Other countries seem to have a healthy number of independent retailers with the same facilities as GW whereas in the UK there is a very limited number.

well we have a GW here in Antwerp. same problem here, only the young and inexperienced. I'm only 15 but I have been doing this hobby for about 7 years and I don't count myself amongst the young and inexperienced. But the problem is, In my local GW there are a lot of extremely young coming I know a few who are 6 and even 7 years old. When they want to play against you, you have to say "No, you first have to assemble your army before I play you." but lately I can't find anyone of my own age. They all moved up to another game store. One of my best friends moved there because there weren't enough experienced lotr players in GW antwerp. (he is kinda competitive, I think he was 2nd best of Belgium after his last tournament) but also because he couldn't stand GW policies anymore. When I that group of 12 -13 years old are there I can count myself lucky. even though I beat em up pretty easy(because most of them have only blackreach.) GW is just focussing on the new generation.

The veterans formed clubs to game at, started indy tournaments to play in.

I don't want to play at the GW stores due to kiddies.

I will play at FLGSs though, they do cater for older gamers.

I am blessed with my FLGS. And the fact I live about 2 minutes drive from it. I seriously may never move.

Gw's attitudes towards Vetran gamers, and hobby stores(not Gw ones) have officially turned me from their game i have played since 96. In January i picked up Warmachine MK2 and I feel that its a better, more balanced game. I believe in it so much i have liqudated most of my Warhammer 40k minis, and have now officially started my 4th Warmachine army since Jan.

Perhaps because, despite being a long-term tabletop gamer, GW actually owes you nothing?

Perhaps the specialist games were simply not making enough money to warrent the investment of time and money? Every store I know of has a veteran night, but perhaps no employee there wants to work on a Wed/Thurs even after work, or again the event doesn't justify any additional cost associated with it?

I don't understand why GW creates a market where it doesn't really profit.
There are many internet retailers now doing discount stock because shop shelf stuff is just too expensive.
There are many Internet bitz retailers now as well, GW has practically stopped selling bits (bar overpriced pack things, don't tell tell me what components I need) which is staggering being one of the best things the company used to do (there are further issues as they used to be mainly metal components, now people want plastic bitz).
Ebay will sell classic models for 10x their original cost yet the GW classic range is mainly full of models I'd rather forget....
The once thriving 'specialist games' used to be huge, now they're tied to a chair in the basement...

They would do better out of veteran gamers if they actually catered for us. Instead they shake their ass at 'little timmy' who has the attention span of a drunk goldfish and daddies credit card. You'd think after their huge boom at the height of what I call the 'Age of Strife' or the 'Red Period' was destroyed by the rise of Pokemon they'd learn to play for the long run...

Justicar Alaric wrote: has GW forgotten about the veteran gamers who still enjoy their products?

Not at all. We're still taken for granted as people who'll buy stuff.

As much as GW has people frustrated, them going bust will most likely move the war gaming industry itself back many, many years. People forget that they have created an IP in 40k that spans many video games, books, and now a movie. Their closest competitor in PP still haven't managed to start moving novels out yet.

Like it or not their business model also brings in fresh blood to all of wargaming and many of the kiddies will eventually become the veterans. I'm as frustrated by the pricing as anyone else but wishing another company to take over a busted GW is stupid and wishful thinking. It's annoying so many people assume a company failing is always going to solve everyone's problems.

Warmachine/Hordes will never become as big and visible as 40k. This is a simple fact and not a statement on what game is better. It will not replace the support pillar that 40k means to the industry as a whole if GW were to dissolve.

RandyMcStab wrote:I
The once thriving 'specialist games' used to be huge, now they're tied to a chair in the basement...
...

Just to clarify; The specialist games were never, ever huge and never really thrived.
Even back when GW made loads of different games -- we'll take Man O War as an example -- many of those games didn't really make that much, if any, profit for the company as they were often so expensive to produce... all those thousands of bits of cardboard and the like. *shudders*

Could they do something with those games...I guess so, there's companies that do manage to do similar things successfully enough.

Given the great success of their partnership with FFG, I'm really quite surprised that they don't license out more of these old games or similar ones. Blood Bowl would be ideal really ; it's not actually set in the "real" Warhammer world, self contained, there's a fairly well established community for that sort of game...etc etc

I can understand their reluctance to let others produce models that might actively compete with their own on a like for like basis -- so no license for a same as GW scale Heroquest/similar -- but I don't see why they don't let people make, for example, a new or modern Battlefleet Gothic game using... card counters, plastic models etc etc.

I guess we'll just have to hope that the partnership with FFG continues .

Love the models and the game. Hate the management and pushy salesmanship. In the end, I hope GW doesn't go out of business. I do hope they learn from their mistakes. Showing the shareholders a profit by slashing employees is short-sighted and foolish.

Justicar Alaric wrote:With the entire world in the grip of economic uncertainty has GW forgotten about the veteran gamers who still enjoy their products?

I can remember a time not all that long ago when veteran gamers were actively encouraged to game in store, as this would help the staff in introducing new gamers (age = experience?).

Not only this but most stores also had a dedicated veterans night where older gamers could have a game without the worry of kids (we have them at home to deal with we don't need to baby sit other peoples when we try to enjoy our hobby.).

I just want to know what happened to GW to make them shun us like social lepers? Do older gamers no deserve the same levels of service as newer younger gamers?

Older gamers have credit cards and can order on-line (enjoying a discount). They also can host gaming at their own houses (they really shouldn't be living in mom's basement any longer).

So for these reasons I don't need an LGS/GW store to cater to me...

I think that GW has a 3 pronged market aim

1) internet- they are finally doing a 1/2 way decent job of using the medium, and I like ordering online.

2) FLGS indepentant retailers- I like how the only place I can get black Library books in town is Barnes and Nobel. I can ask the FLGS If I want to wait a week, and sometimes I do. Our FLGS pushes huge ammounts of product GW, reaper FOW and well everything but LOTR out the door.

But GW doesn't make as much as they do if they sell on the interwebs or in their store as their own stores, since the store gets their cut. Also this is lower risk for GW.

3) the GW stores seem to be high risk/high reward ventures for them. And these are the method I don't use. Firstly due to proximity, and well I love all 3 flgs within 30 min drive. The closest one generally get the most of money tho, however I at least buy some paint when I go to the other two to game.

The smaller games were cool, bloody cool. I loved Necromunda like you have no idea. But could be relaunced and done better I think.

My store loves people who come in and play.
Helps advertise, and all the people there are really nice.

reds8n wrote:
Just to clarify; The specialist games were never, ever huge and never really thrived.
Even back when GW made loads of different games -- we'll take Man O War as an example -- many of those games didn't really make that much, if any, profit for the company as they were often so expensive to produce... all those thousands of bits of cardboard and the like. *shudders*

I would disagree, 2nd Ed Epic was a really big game, lots of coverage in WD, new units released often, I would see armies in the windows of shops all the time. Space Hulk was big too, hardback expansion book, multiple expansions, lots of articles in the Journal (harlequin hulk FTW) 2nd Ed BloodBowl was huge for a time, all those Freebooterz on the back of WD, lots of local leagues and so on. All of these systems whilst not as big as the main 2 were very well supported and enjoyed high profiles, not just a page in WD once a year, go back and flip through some old WD's.

The later stage releases where they did a group together was less successful Man O War, original BFG etc however they were very well supported and had a lot of coverage in WD.

Nowadays they really are the ginger step child....

Unfortunately, GW's attitude towards veterans will remain for as long as the current corporate structure does.

Senior management and big investors simply do not understand the product (they only think they do) and regard letting those who are heavily invested in the hobby have meaningful input on their plans is to their minds akin to allowing the lunatics to take over the asylum.

What it boils down to is that they're terrified that the whole thing will blow up in their face if they do anything that is not a tried-and-tested corporate/retail model (i.e. raise prices and cut costs for low unit-sale items). Sadly, they need to realise that this kind of approach works if you're selling Ferraris. Toy soldiers, not so much...

Justicar Alaric wrote:With the entire world in the grip of economic uncertainty has GW forgotten about the veteran gamers who still enjoy their products?

Forgotten is the wrong word. We're just not the target market.

GW want new customers, and want to keep getting new customers. Their aim is to get them to make the initial purchase, then one birthday and one Christmas and then they don't care whether they stay or go.

You get more money when you have 100 new customers a month who last 18 months in the hobby than 10 customers in a year that last 18 years.

BYE

GW hasn't forgotten their old customers. They just don't like them.

I think the point is that specialist games would have been an awful lot bigger and popular now if GW gave them the support they deserved rather than treating them like a red headed step-child. If Epic or BB got the sort of coverage (both in WD and in-store) that 40K or Fantasy got in their infancy then things could have been way different. When I was but a wee slip of a lad, 2nd Ed Epic was THE game to play and in fact, I would humbly suggest more people played it that played 40K such as it was at the time.

Fafnir wrote:GW hasn't forgotten their old customers. They just don't like them.

Nah, it's just you

[/paranoia]

tallshortguy wrote:As much as GW has people frustrated, them going bust will most likely move the war gaming industry itself back many, many years. People forget that they have created an IP in 40k that spans many video games, books, and now a movie. Their closest competitor in PP still haven't managed to start moving novels out yet.

No novels yet, but White Moon Dream's game is chugging along nicely, and the MonPoc movie should be suitably campy (although I'm wondering what roles Burton will cast Depp and Carter in).

On topic, however, it just doesn't make much sense for GW to target established players as long as they follow the business model of re-releasing the same old thing every couple years. Since most vets already own everything they need for their army, they'll spend a hell of a lot less than a new player who needs to drop a grand or so to get into the game.