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Casper wrote:

The Prince of Excess wrote:4 Hydras would be a bigger game and also....what's the opposite of fun?

Spellbound wrote:Dwarves?

This is Perfect.

I would hope that with a new edition where Dwarves will actually get to perhaps kill things in combat instead of just trying not to die in said phase, that we might get past the "Dwarves are boring" line of thinking...

Played a few games against them and they were fun, even saw some charging Dwarves.

Red_Zeke wrote:
I would hope that with a new edition where Dwarves will actually get to perhaps kill things in combat instead of just trying not to die in said phase, that we might get past the "Dwarves are boring" line of thinking...

I'm not saying dwarves aren't fun or that they are boring. I find dwarf gunlines (well gunlines in general) boring and hate playing against them (most people at our store use the new terrain rules so the dwarf players take that hill that gives them flaming). I also find cheesed out units (like this one is supposed to be) rather boring as well.

I would like to see dwarf players run lots Warriors, Hammerers, Ironbreakers, Slayers, etc and come fight at the center of the table (well at least out of their deployment zone).

Dwarves are ok to play against as long as they're not sporting a unholy gun line. A friend of mine is sporting two organ guns in a 1500 pt tournament next Saturday and he'll most likely dominate all comers.

The problem is that most of these solutions involve spending twice the points to destroy the unit.

You know what will destroy that unit? A 5 year old with a hammer.

I could drop my BRB on it.

Or, I could use this.

S: 22 Bestigors – Full Command, Warbanner = 319 (Beastlord & BSB) (6x4)

With these two in that unit

L: Beastlord - Heavy Armour, Stonecrusher Mace, Ramhorn Helm, Gnarled Hide, Shield, Potion of Foolhardiness = 254 (General)
H: Wargor – Battle Standard Bearer, Heavy Armour, Shield, Berserker Sword, Ruby Ring of Ruin = 161

Count on that unit being +1 S and +1 T from my two level 2 bray shamans in the army.

15 S7 bestigor attacks,

6 S9 Beastlord Attacks + some random attacks from the Ramhorn Helm

4 S5 Wargor Attacks

Count on me re-rolling failed to-hits as well.

Count on a fireball before the charge.

This is all these posts turn into lol..

Ok you do this, I do this I win.

Well in that case i do this you lose.

Ok then if you do that i do this and i win....

Most of the things so and so does would do great against that one scenario, but get them trounced in every other possible scenario in the tournament. There are answers and like every other edition putting all your eggs in one basket is generally a bad idea.

Hey, I had just read the rules wrong... as I pointed out 7 days ago XD so it's kinda pointless to continue posting, even though, having 40 dwarfs in your deployment zone is annoying ey?

The Prince of Excess wrote:Played a few games against them and they were fun, even saw some charging Dwarves.

Yeah, I carried my recent 2v2 and I am very offensive with my close combat units. Have 4-5 of them on 2k and will expand to have around 6 melee units + artillery. Don't need shooting units really. But thats my taste

Casper wrote:

Red_Zeke wrote:
I would hope that with a new edition where Dwarves will actually get to perhaps kill things in combat instead of just trying not to die in said phase, that we might get past the "Dwarves are boring" line of thinking...

Oh indeed I have, done excellent and carried two 2v2 games (4k on each side split in 2 armies), dwarfs can be played much more offensive now =D
I'm not saying dwarves aren't fun or that they are boring. I find dwarf gunlines (well gunlines in general) boring and hate playing against them (most people at our store use the new terrain rules so the dwarf players take that hill that gives them flaming). I also find cheesed out units (like this one is supposed to be) rather boring as well.

I would like to see dwarf players run lots Warriors, Hammerers, Ironbreakers, Slayers, etc and come fight at the center of the table (well at least out of their deployment zone).

nieto666 wrote:Dwarves are ok to play against as long as they're not sporting a unholy gun line. A friend of mine is sporting two organ guns in a 1500 pt tournament next Saturday and he'll most likely dominate all comers.

I agree, gunline is boring. Thunderers and Querllers are boring. The rest is fun. Hammers, check, Ironbreakers... dunno if I want them, maybe. Slayers check! All dwarfs that aint artillery will fills up a melee spot in my army.

//Thorheim of Barak Varr (oh lolrp)

Im somewhat new to WHFB, so please excuse any stupidity.

Dwarves have a movement of 3 right?
With such slow pace (6 on the march) who says i have to kill said unit to win a game?

Due to being somewhat handicapped in the movement phase is it not possible to ignore it and work away at the rest of your army?
Since that units 500+ points, ill only have to work on 1,500 or so (2,000 point game)


So, am i right in thinking its possible to ignore it? ive just started skaven, and with a decent movement i think its possible to side step it.

Failing that, stock up on plague priests with censers, censer bearers, monks or the odd furnace.

Since the furnace makes the censer bearers stubborn, they shouldnt run off too quickly with a priest with them.
And i dont really need to rely on thier attacks, since you will be taking toughness tests, if you fail the model loses a wound (no saves allowed)
Plague monks also have a banner that works the same.
The furnace also works on toughness.

Anyway, hope that wasnt a dumb answer.

It costs 695 points for one M3 squad w/ 5+ save or 735 w/ 4+ save. Only gets 5+ ward vs. shooting.

The best way to deal with 40 Hammerers is magic debuff + combat horde.

Lore of Metal could permanently give the entire squad -1 or -2 armor save. Then +1 to hit and Armor-piercing or just -1WS -1 armor save too.

An equal horde of 40 Witch Elves with 3 armor-piercing poisoned attacks each costs 450 points. With -3 AS the hammers get no save, and the Witch Elves kill 12.75 with poison, 7.08 dead from regulars.

That's 20 Hammerers dead before they get a single attack. Now that horde of hammerers lost an entire rank of attacks.

Thane + Hammerers only kill 12 in return.

Thunderers have 2 ranks. Witches have 3 ranks. Thunderers lose combat by 10 points and run away on anything except a double 1s roll.

How are you assuming that witch elves hit at a -3 AS....

With the banner they are -1, they are only Str 3...

ShivanAngel wrote:How are you assuming that witch elves hit at a -3 AS....

With the banner they are -1, they are only Str 3...

Lore of Metal as I already stated. It can permanently reduce an enemy -1 AS for rest of game, stacking, once per turn. Then it has another spell for -1 WS and -1 armor save too. Hammerers never get better than a 5+ save anyway. They can't use their shield in combat.

I can afford a Lvl.4 Metal sorc + 40 witch elves for the cost of Thane + 40 Hammerers.

Another option is Okkam's Razor. 90% chance to get it. S8 Witch Elves with 51 attacks with Hatred and poison, taking away hammerer armor save completely. An average 32 hammerers dead instantly. Leaving only 8? Hah.
Or reduce hammerers by D3 strength and D3 toughness, on average they'd be S4 T2 1 attack vs. witch elves with S3 T3 3 attacks Hatred Poison. Witch Elves win that too.


Like I said, magical debuff + combat unit = completely obliterated horde of hammerers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At 735 points for the Dwarves, some basic squads also rock it.

Exactly 735 points buys 47 White Lions with ASF great weapons and full command.

They dish out 31 S6 attacks, reroll to hit.
19 Hammerers dead instantly out of 40 hammerers.
21 Hammerers and thane left kill 10 White Lions.

Next turn only 2 hammerers + 1 thane are left alive before they attack 37 white lions.

Hammerers lose combat by 11 or 12 points. They get obliterated into the sand.

Doombull - AHW + Many-Limbed: 8 S6 attacks. (+1 attack for entire unit if they win combat)
7 Minotaurs - Frenzy + AHW : 37 S5 attacks. Champ with devastating charge potion.
Deployed like 5 in front and 2 in back that's 1 S6 autohit and 4 S5 autohits from stomp.
Hammerers lose combat every round.

@The Blood God
You do realise that you have to write which Lore you use beforehand? and that not all wizards in the game can use all the lores >_>. For your examples you have to use those units against THAT unit, wihtout counting in the rest of the army. Plus you would still spend a round or two against a stubborn squad that aswell hurts when they strike back. The time you took against hammers in your examples, could have been time spent to go against the rest of the dwarf army. =/
And the unit doesnt need to be Hammers, or Longbeards, could just be Quarellers or Normal Dwarf Warriors. And you are asuming that they "instantly" die. The statistics are in "your" favour, but statistics aint all.
And your thinking are:
"I kill about half, out of those half they kill about half of mine. Then I win lol" w since you auto-assume that half will hit, and those will get 1 model down, which isn't realistic and changes from roll to roll. It's all about what happens in the table.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:Im somewhat new to WHFB, so please excuse any stupidity.
Dwarves have a movement of 3 right?
With such slow pace (6 on the march) who says i have to kill said unit to win a game?

Due to being somewhat handicapped in the movement phase is it not possible to ignore it and work away at the rest of your army?
Since that units 500+ points, ill only have to work on 1,500 or so (2,000 point game)

So, am i right in thinking its possible to ignore it? ive just started skaven, and with a decent movement i think its possible to side step it.
Failing that, stock up on plague priests with censers, censer bearers, monks or the odd furnace.

Since the furnace makes the censer bearers stubborn, they shouldnt run off too quickly with a priest with them.
And i dont really need to rely on thier attacks, since you will be taking toughness tests, if you fail the model loses a wound (no saves allowed)
Plague monks also have a banner that works the same.
The furnace also works on toughness.

Anyway, hope that wasnt a dumb answer.

Well, yes they are slow, though they can always march (aka 6" every turn) due to their dwarfyness (read special rules). Of course you can avoid them, but dwarfs usaly have strong firesupport aswell. Allot plays in during deployment. Also if you smack down a 40 big unit of whatever abit more then 12" from your opponent and he has deployed bad, and cannot do anything rapidly about them, plus the rest of the dwarf army coming at you also with the new rules the dwarf charge range has improved, so with the unit, (unless something charged them, or the opponent has ran too far away) will get to charge. And having a big 40 or even a little 20 man squad could cause headace
I think you can avoid them with Skaven, but if you get bogged down against offensive dwarf players (which are possible now) you could suddenly have a whole unit messing with your flanks and rear.

But as I always want to repeat, all about what the dice gods says

Warmachines arent a problem, since i can just run gutter runners at them from your deployment side.

By all means throw big blocks my way.
I can also do that, but i can throw units of 50 slaves at you, they only cost me 100 points though.

As for shooting, hows -2 to save and then armour piercing?
2 catapaults that ignore saves?
wind mortars that ignore saves (only small blast though)

or, can simply throw a HPA at you.


Also, with large units you put yourself in the gak for templates.
Even a cheap warpfire thrower will be getting max hits (at a -2 save as standard)
So large blasts that ignore saves will really do damage.

If you want characters, ill just take queek.
Since he hits dwarves on a 2+, then gets +1 to hit (in a challenge), and faq has clarified it as an auto hit lol.
So in a challenge queek gets 6 auto hits, at S4 with +1 to wound, that dont allow saves.
Oh, and he is just over 200 points lol.

Failing that, snikch can do a better job against multy wound models.




but as i said, new to fantasy, so ill find this out at some point lol.
Pointless thinking too far into it until ive managed to give it a try.

Thorheim wrote:@The Blood God
You do realise that you have to write which Lore you use beforehand? and that not all wizards in the game can use all the lores >_>. For your examples you have to use those units against THAT unit, wihtout counting in the rest of the army. Plus you would still spend a round or two against a stubborn squad that aswell hurts when they strike back. The time you took against hammers in your examples, could have been time spent to go against the rest of the dwarf army. =/
And the unit doesnt need to be Hammers, or Longbeards, could just be Quarellers or Normal Dwarf Warriors. And you are asuming that they "instantly" die. The statistics are in "your" favour, but statistics aint all.
And your thinking are:
"I kill about half, out of those half they kill about half of mine. Then I win lol" w since you auto-assume that half will hit, and those will get 1 model down, which isn't realistic and changes from roll to roll. It's all about what happens in the table.

Yes, I fully understand the new rules. Most all of the lores work just fine against Dwarves.
Some Lores give +4 toughness, some give +1 to hit some reduce the armor saves, or make your troops S8 killing machines. There's PLENTY to choose from that can be used to shatter the hammerer.

How is his post even worth mentioning if it's "My unit is unbeatable, as long as no other combat units charge it because they'll beat it up."?

The time I spent against hammerers doesn't NEED to be spent against the rest of his army because it was a comparison of an EQUAL points cost. If an equal points cost of my troops crushes an equal points cost of his, then a Hammerer horde is far from "Dwarf Horde: Unstoppable."
If he spends 1000 points on hammerers and 1000 points on archers, and I spent 1000 points on something which obliterates his hammerers, I still have 1000 points to spend on things to beat his archers. He hasn't gained anything by making me waste time murdering him.

I am assuming nothing. I actually used math in my post, which you did not use in your reply. There are no assumptions made. In any dice game, it is not completely random. If statistics were meaningless, you might as well bring 500 points of troops to a 2k game, because you Could win if you rolled nothing but 6s for the entire game. A logical person would not.

Hammerers will strike last unless the enemy has great weapons and isn't High Elf. That is a fact. Therefore it is easy to calculate how much damage a certain unit does to them and how much damage is taken in return. If a vastly superior amount of Hammerers die compared to the enemy, it is clear their prowess is just exaggerated. If Hammerers charge White Lions, the usual result will be the Hammerers dying. If White Lions charge Hammerers, the usual result will be the Hammerers dying. The 31 instant S6 attacks from White Lions means they reduce their damage taken from Dwarves by a lot.

Seriously, you'll never be competitive if you disregard statistics. A unit of 5 Dark Riders has some chance of charging 50 Hammerers and somehow winning, but out of 500 games, it might happen once. Basing your strategy on winning the lottery rather than intelligent knowledge of the actual combat abilities of units is not intelligent.

A complete Dwarf army vs. a complete Anything army will be more complicated. That's not what this post is about. The statement was about the effectiveness of a particular 735-ish point Horde.

I am pointing out that your reasoning is not realistic. For example, I have with a cheap runelord and a runesmith in my standard army, about 4 dispell dice (then +1 for MasterRune of balance). So even if my opponent would roll 12 on those 2d6. I would have 6+4+1. 11, and he 11. Or just if he'd roll 4&3 on the roll, then I will have 9 after stealing one from him and he will only have 6. And you are counting on that all those magic will go through, which is very onesided.

I am assuming nothing. I actually used math in my post

No you are thinking in probability terms, but since we do both know of the probability of the units we don't really need math calculations written in the posts. You didn't write it out but your thinking was "My guys hit them on 4+ with rerolls, that is 50% chance to hit 4+ on a dice. About half will hit, and most half will die" <-- not counting in the increase of the chance to get rolls on 1-3 when the number of dice goes down. You're not even putting in your own re-roll to hits >___>

then a Hammerer horde is far from "Dwarf Horde: Unstoppable." The statement was about the effectiveness of a particular 735-ish point Horde.

But that has allready been disproven, I don't really know what you are whining about, was settled on page 1 =S

Seriously, you'll never be competitive if you disregard statistics. Basing your strategy on winning the lottery rather than intelligent knowledge of the actual combat abilities of units is not intelligent.

I know what my army can do, and what the other armies can do. Whom has written about "wining the lottery"? While yourself completely disregard the moment of chance. Arrogance, I guess there is a little elf in you =D

>>you'll never be competitive
Implying the implication of non-competiveness

Thorheim wrote:
I am pointing out that your reasoning is not realistic. For example, I have with a cheap runelord and a runesmith in my standard army, about 4 dispell dice (then +1 for MasterRune of balance). So even if my opponent would roll 12 on those 2d6. I would have 6+4+1. 11, and he 11. Or just if he'd roll 4&3 on the roll, then I will have 9 after stealing one from him and he will only have 6. And you are counting on that all those magic will go through, which is very onesided.

It's unrealistic that someone with a Lvl.4 and several extra power dice is going to get 1 or 2 spells off? You're nowhere near immune to all magic plus if you spend hundreds of points on magic defense, that's hundreds of points extra for your opponent to spend on things which beat those hammerers up. YOU are being unrealistic and childish.

Thorheim wrote:
No you are thinking in probability terms, but since we do both know of the probability of the units we don't really need math calculations written in the posts. You didn't write it out but your thinking was "My guys hit them on 4+ with rerolls, that is 50% chance to hit 4+ on a dice. About half will hit, and most half will die" <-- not counting in the increase of the chance to get rolls on 1-3 when the number of dice goes down. You're not even putting in your own re-roll to hits

You've shown no evidence that you understand the probabilities. The numbers DO include EVERYTHING, including the re-roll to hit. Your thinking is just wrong.

Thorheim wrote:
But that has allready been disproven, I don't really know what you are whining about, was settled on page 1 =S

I don't know what stupid point you're trying to make by arguing with a factual post when nothing you've said matters at all?

Thorheim wrote:
I know what my army can do, and what the other armies can do. Whom has written about "wining the lottery"? While yourself completely disregard the moment of chance. Arrogance, I guess there is a little elf in you =D

You've proven you're not clever enough to understand. I'm mocking YOUR childish lack of understanding of probability. You could for some reason roll nothing but 6s for an entire game and win it. That will never happen for you.

There's no point at all in arguing that vastly weaker units are going to beat stronger ones because one player gets really, really lucky. That isn't normal or reliable and cannot be counted on in any strategy or game plan.

You're free to be foolish and not understand even basic high school level math all you want. Just don't bring it up on the internet then.

And I am amused =D since you seem unable to grasp the whole picture, since one cannot micromanage, without macromanage.
If your calculation included everything, then why do they only kill half of the hammers? The wounds inflicted should then be higher. You are defintly missing a variable.

Oh my, now we go on with the belittling, are you upset that mathematics include a margin or error and chance? Specialy in this game.
Are you in need to be on top and dominant, your insults are very highschoolish and it's very fun to see someone frustrated about something like this.

i like your idea. i am doing the same thing with 50 longbeards as my sole core chpoice, it tops off at around 650 points, it has the grungi banner. it also hold a lord, a BSB and a runesmith.

I would worry about an expensive horde unit like that being countered easily by outflankers, templates and generally being avoided. I suspect it would also have difficulty in terrain dense environments. It is tempting to go for something like that, of course, for the laugh, but I don't think it will end up being a tournament winner. Am open to being proved wrong, though.

Thorheim wrote:And I am amused =D since you seem unable to grasp the whole picture, since one cannot micromanage, without macromanage.
If your calculation included everything, then why do they only kill half of the hammers? The wounds inflicted should then be higher. You are defintly missing a variable.

Oh my, now we go on with the belittling, are you upset that mathematics include a margin or error and chance? Specialy in this game.
Are you in need to be on top and dominant, your insults are very highschoolish and it's very fun to see someone frustrated about something like this.

You don't even deserve a reply. Troll elsewhere.

You don't win a convo by acting so stupid that it frustrates someone into facepalming at your stupidity.

Lovely insults and flame biting.

Thorheim wrote:Lovely insults and flame biting.

Lovely trolling and not saying a single useful thing in this entire thread.

All you have said is "math doesn't matter because I say so, hur durr durr."

Maybe if you go to high school and take statistics you wont be so ignorant.

Suggest a mod deleted all his posts in this thread which have nothing at all to do with the original topic. He's just acting like a clown to get attention.

Dear "TheBloodGod" and "Thorheim":

Might I suggest the "IGNORE" feature?

Also, might I suggest a cessation of hostilities in this thread?

There's a link to the rules of this forum in my signature - you both might want to click on it and read them, especially the part about being polite, no personal attacks, etc.

This will be the final warning in this thread...