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Here's a battle report that explains how Kroot can be used to control where the enemy army can drop during deployment.

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/07/battle-report-tau-vs-demons.html

Since Tau are a shooty army, that makes them particularly vulnerable to drops that get in their faces and try to assault them. Not just daemons, but also drop pods, deepstriking units of all kinds, and outflankers. One major important use of Kroot is that they allow the Tau player to push these kinds of units out of the drop zones they want and into the Tau kill zones.

That would be enough by itself for me (if I were a Tau player).

Sanct
about tac marines: I meant in terms of their capabilities they're worth about 10 points. At 16 points a piece they're horribly over priced. I was suggesting a different price based on what you can expect out of them on the battlefield.

About shooting: ok so im clear what I'm saying an army that wins by shooting is shooty. An army that wins by assaulting is assaulty. Hence tau are shooty berserkers are not. No tau are not shooty in the same way that guard are shooty neither are berserkers assaulty in the same way that space wolves are assaulty.

My approach is "this is the best way to play it do it" the best way is the only way that makes sense in a competitive environment. If you want to advocate for another way and argue it's merits then I cam understand that but advocating for every unit at once on the grounds that they're all useful some of the time I can't. I mean it's just obviously a wrong headed approach but whatever I think you just don't want to offend people by saying their unit choices are bad. I thank god do not have that problem

About shooting casualties from kroot: yeah I'll take a few casualties so what? You have to concentrate on killing their best stuff first. That ain't kroot. That's really my whole point here. They're a mediocre unit. Spend your points on great units not mediocre ones. But whatever I keep saying that. Do you all know what opportunity cost is? I mean have you ever even heard of it?

Yes shades of grey sounds familiar. Not really interested in debating metaphysics with you let's stick to 40k alright? Each game has 1 of 3 outcomes. Winning is good losing or drawing is bad. Good and bad black and white. It's not hard to look into the reasons for a games outcome. Apart from the dice rollls they are good decisions and bad ones. What is it about clarity that disturbs you?
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Flavius.
I could go for that argument. They help the rest of the army shoot better. AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Sanct
about tac marines: I meant in terms of their capabilities they're worth about 10 points. At 16 points a piece they're horribly over priced.

Well if you want it that way Tau Fire warriors should be 6 points...

Sounds about right.

Suggesting a different price helps not.
It's not always the case they win by shooting. You still need to get to objectives 2/3 of the time. You need to get weapons where they need to be 3/3 of the time.

As for zerkers winning through shooting. You do not know my Crap Legion. Three plasma pistols (though I would never suggested) have be hilarious.

As for Zerkers and SW... depending on supporting auras it can be pretty much the same thing.
_____________

And 'best' is subjective. It also sounds goading rather than guiding. Some of your advice does not sound of a competitive environment as I see it, though 'competitive' is also subjective.

It's not a problem to maximize everything we have access to. I will suggest competitive options, but I do not turn a blind eye to lists that are not 'bend you over the table and rape you'...which is not what you are suggesting either IMO.

There is no wrong choice, the only issues I have are complete denial of functionality.

You are talking about the opportunity cost...what would you get?
7 Fire Warriors or 10 Kroot?

Let me ask you... do you play Tau?
You must have played against them at least right?
So, what did you play against, how did they use it.

For you to completely dismiss them, there must be a reason besides what sounds like Theoryhammer.

It's all point of view. What kind of tourney do you play? There are different levels of winning sometimes, VPs, Secondary/Tertiary objectives...etc.

It is in shades of Grey, did you win based on dice, did you win based on the opponent making noob mistakes, etc, etc. Winning/Losing is not as simple as you make it. It differs gaming group to gaming group, tourney to tourney.

I know that their are some systems where winning, but only 'just' is preferable to max points in the first round, etc. etc.

You talk of Clarity, but sadly, I do not see it. You leave me with more questions than anything else. You offer blanketted statements with no supporting elements to start... I don't call that clarity.
Surely we can not be all holistic all the time, but more information is always welcomed.

Yes, you should take them. They can outflank and own artillery chilling in the backfield (death by glancing), you can infiltrate onto an objective and camp on it...they have many uses. Oh, and if you're fighting a biker army that goes all reserves with no outflankers...

I have been running 3 units of kroot at 2500 points 2 units of 10 with 2 hounds, outflanking and 1 unit with some hounds a shaper and 2 krootox sitting in my battle line, as part of the anchor with the broadsides, Deathrain, Pathfinders and 1 unit of FW.

The two other units are to come in and cause disruption, chaos and snag objectives.
at hard boyz I placed those units in towers where they had good firing position through the whole game against orks. I found they make a solid fire sector if in cover.

Gavo wrote:Oh, and if you're fighting a biker army that goes all reserves with no outflankers...

I see you saw what I did a couple posts ago
Thx for putting the pic here.

I think they used to call Kroot that primarily shoot out of a terrain piece 'the Pillbox'.

-Sanct.

Sanct
I'm not really interested in continuing the subjective/objective debate w you. You either win or lose a game. That's objective to me. W/E

i play against tau from time to time. They use crisis suits and marker lights... Bc that's what tau are good at. I'm not denying the functionality of kroot. I'm saying there's no reason to take units that are merely functional. You should take units that are good. ie more than functional.

As for the other stuff please narrow it down time is limited
AF

And what is described here is that Kroot are highly functional with utility that surpasses the primary troop choice that is Fire Warriors.

Crisis Suits are not enough. They place shots where you need them but do not have weight of fire.
They offer low model count with only MEQ durability.

Markerlights are nearly a 'need' basis, but are static, require a good spot for a few turns. Not scoring, screwed by Dawn of War in more ways than one.

Kroot are entirely worth it for what they can do at their cost. Their cost reflects their face-value poor statline, but it does not take into account more creative ways of using them than what they are suggested to be doing in their fluff (ie combat).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Functional means it can perform.
Which also means it can win you the game.

It's the players' responcibility for creating that situation, it doesn't matter what they are using.

In addition, there are tourneys were a simple win/loss is not the scale.

+1 Sanct.

How many points would you pay to get another turn of shooting from your crisis suits and vehicles? 70 points worth of kroot can get you that, even if they do nothing but stand around.

...even if they do nothing but stand around baking in the sun making that wonderful fried chicken smell.

Fixed that

Sanctjud wrote:

...even if they do nothing but stand around baking in the sun making that wonderful fried chicken smell.

Fixed that

lol

^ very lol

@AbaddonFidelis
I don't think you understand the weaknesses of a Tau army fully. It seems that you have just played against them and noticed which units tend to do the most damage and assumed that Kroot (doing little direct damage) are inconsequential. This is certainly not the case, similarly to how an Officer of the Fleet (doing little direct damage on it's own) is not inconsequential.

Tau suffer greatly from enemy assaulters and Crisis Suits along with many other units need cover to survive. Kroot can provide answers to assault and a lack of cover and are very cheap in doing so. Your force will not likely gain much in terms of firepower by replacing the kroot, but it stands to become far harder to hard counter by having them.

Furthermore your comment:

I don't have time to kill a bunch of bolter guys sitting in cover while I'm getting fragged by crisis suits broadsides etc. Once I've killed those things I can just roll back and flame the kroot off the objective. I don't understand why you think "not bad" is enough. It's not. A unit has to actually be good to justify fielding, not just ok.

That likely assumes that you are beating the rest of the Tau army. If you go that route, of course you would be able to deal with the Kroot as the rest of the Tau army can't stop you. If the Tau army is winning then dealing with the Kroot becomes harder and each bit of firepower that goes at them can have major consequences to the rest of your force.

@Sanctjud
OT but your sig made my day.

My friend infiltrates his kroot in one large group behind a peice of terrain. This usualy works at either a juicy target to take his opponets mind off of his fire warriors/stealth suits or it ends up blocking the path of anything trying to get into CC with his tau.

Hector

well I guess I could see that. Alot of the people who have been advocating for kroot have just been saying "take them they're good" without explaining why. I'm not a tau player - I just notice that I dont have to fight them much and when I do they arent much of a threat. If someone's going to make a case how they help tau shoot better, I'm certainly open to that. So is what you're saying that they'll buy tau an extra turn if blood angels get in their face? of course they arent going to win against hard core assault units....

about my quote. I mean I'm not going to prioritize the kroot in my targetting. I run a bunch of bikes so my mobility is going to give me alot of options as to what I choose to attack and what I choose to ignore. my point about putting kroot in cover is that if my opponent wants to stick them in there and use them for bolters, relying on their 3+ cover to keep them safe, I'm cool with that. Even if they werent in 3+ cover I'd still ignore them. The cover itself is inconsequential because there's no reason for me to shoot them while I have crisis suits and broadsides to deal with. If I can't kill those I'm going to lose anyway so in either case the kroot aren't much of a priority unless they come out of their cover and assault me. Then I have to deal with them. Other than that I really dont and their 3+ cover doesnt matter.

It's the same conversation that comes up with chaos players and nurgle bikers. "they're awesome bc they're toughness 6." no they're not. they're a point sink because they are way underpowered offensively. Even if they were toughness 8 they'd still suck.

AF

@AF:
T8 would make them more interesting. Immunity to Str 4 is a much bigger bonus than T6...but eh.
___________
As for 'seeing' H3ct0r's post. It was clearly explained what we were discussing beforehand.

This is quite frustrating. The first person to reply to the thread already brought up Kroot being used as bubble wrap and proceeded to explain more of it with a couple more posts.

ssREV was 6th to post with a good run down as well, noting their tarpit uses and their variety of deployment options.

In addition, H3ct0r 's first post in this thread (editted for errors or adding more I don't know) has gone over his suggestions as in the last post.

We've gone over it and hammered it in, and it takes over a page to 'see' it after a poster repeats him/her/it-self...

And then the whole "take them they're good"....aren't you the same person that does the same thing over in the Chaos boards? Why the double standards? Why do we need to be completely holistic on our opinions while you don't have to be? It just seems so strange.

Sanct
to your earlier point about holding up marines.
well that makes sense. as long as you dont invest too many points in them I guess. Ok I take back what I said. They can be useful.

the pillbox idea is still stupid.
AF



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dead
Just so we're clear I did not insult Godzbuzsaw. He insulted me and I quoted what he said about me. I don't insult people. If they say something ridiculous they get an lol whatever. If they make a habit out of it I ignore them. But I don't insult people. I agree calling names is not a part of the discussion.

My point about the kroot was just this: if they dont help you, as a tau player, play to your strength, which is shooting, dont take them. I heard a good idea about how they can help tau shoot. I changed my mind.
AF


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Godz
can we stick to the main point please? fire warriors are garbage in close combat you know this.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Sanct
to your earlier point about holding up marines.
well that makes sense. as long as you dont invest too many points in them I guess. Ok I take back what I said. They can be useful.

the pillbox idea is still stupid.
AF



Automatically Appended Next Post:
dead
Just so we're clear I did not insult Godzbuzsaw. He insulted me and I quoted what he said about me. I don't insult people. If they say something ridiculous they get an lol whatever. If they make a habit out of it I ignore them. But I don't insult people. I agree calling names is not a part of the discussion.

My point about the kroot was just this: if they dont help you, as a tau player, play to your strength, which is shooting, dont take them. I heard a good idea about how they can help tau shoot. I changed my mind.
AF


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Godz
can we stick to the main point please? fire warriors are garbage in close combat you know this.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
sanct again
I went back over the thread. you're wrong. a few people did say "bubble wrap" but they didn't explain what they meant by that. Buzzsaw was the first person who mentioned using them to hold an enemy unit. Right after he said I didnt know anything about 40k. I think its understandable if I stop reading after that.

As far as going over and hammering things.... sorry if you're frustrated. Your "it's all about personal taste...you have to be creative...there's no right or wrong answer" line is not really constructive. Even spawn are conceivably good in some situations, but they're still a crap unit. Anyway if that's what counts for hammering a point with you then you're right I'll never listen. I guess that makes me dense.

About my posts on the chaos threads: just bc youre not convinced by my explanations doesnt mean I dont give them. Yeah I started the possessed thread with "dont tae them they're crap" or something like that, and then I wrote 2000+ words explaining why I thought that. I've done the same thing discussing noise marines vulkan bike armies etc. Try not to get emotional and make unfounded claims. If you go back you will find that I consistently explain my reasoning in clear and detailed language. Which is more than you can say for someone throwing up that Kroot are bubble wrap.

Anyway try not to get so worked up.
AF

Look i can get why you understand they're crap but they can help with tau's weaknesses and tau aren't as bad in cc as you think, my fws have beaten tms quite a few times in combat, luck of the dice or not, it still counts towards winning the game, the thing with kroot is i use them as a cc support unit so if anything that is close gets stuck in combat the kroot can lend their arms towards winning the fight. I collect chaos and where i spawn has no armour save i don't think they're crap, they have a good toughness (5) and have D6 attacks in close combat with 3 wounds Str 5 and best of all if the enemy kills them they don't get a squad point if you're playing annihilate. so there's no "Big loss" in terms of winning the game type.

Anyway, Thank you everyone for giving me advice on how to use kroot, i will try to put it to use when i play games this weekend.

Sanct

look over your posts again. you didnt say anything about charging marines with them until someone else brought it up. you were all out of bullets by then so you jumped on that. it happens though that it was a good point so I conceeded it. Here's a short list of your other points:

1. everything's good if you use it right (a truism)
2. they're scoring (lots of other things are too)
3. they get 3+ cover and shoot with their bolters. (ignore the 3+ cover bolters are crap)
4. kroot can do other things (again a truism)
5. it's all point of view (more of the same... sigh)
6. everything's subjective (yah yah)
7. this is quite frustrating (you're telling me lol.)

If thats what you mean by hammering something then whatever.
AF


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Buzzsaw
I think that's a valid point... about saving your guys. at least for a turn. I mean they aren't going to win (9/10 times) so if they're buying time that's good. as long as they dont cost too much I guess.

OT the thing about spawn is that they're fearless and they almost always lose the combat so no retreat sends them to the graveyard pretty quick. the loss is the 40 points and the units they could have been.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Sanct

These are some of your contributions to the discussion about kroot so far. I want you to notice the absence in here of anything remotely close to "charge the marines with your kroot so they cant charge your crisis suits"

Kroot are good.
They reward more creative uses.

Tau are not really a shooting army.
They are best at placing shots where they need it, rather than an uber shooting army.

They don't threaten anything?
They threaten to win the game by being scoring.
They need to be removed and if you have to deal with a 3+ cover then that sucks for the opponent.
They have essentially bolter equivalents which isn't too bad....I think they have better offensive power than the equivalent number of fire warriors.

That's fine if you don't have 'time'.
Just know that there is more ways of using them that is beneficial to the Tau player... It could very well be that you have poor Tau players in your area, or Tau players that don't like them...which doesn't mean they are bad.
You can flame them later, but all the while the kroot are shooting back. You need to commit to expose yourself to take out the Tau supporting elements, and the kroot can do other things besides sitting on an objective as they only need to be there turn 5+.



Your points about Kroot boild down to:
1. everything's good if you use it right (a truism)
2. they're scoring (lots of other things are too)
3. they get 3+ cover and shoot with their bolters. (ignore the 3+ cover bolters are crap)
4. kroot can do other things (again a truism)
5. it's all point of view (more of the same... sigh)
6. this is quite frustrating (you're telling me lol.)

If this is what you mean by hammering a point then you're being ridiculous. I answered your points. You didnt really have anything to contribute (besides bringing up the possibility that berserkers were a shooty army...which was helpful, really) until someone else mentioned charging marines to keep them from charging crisis suits. If you'd said that earlier, as you seem to think you did, this conversation would not have lasted so long. But I encourage you, in all honesty, to go back and review what you did, in fact, say.
AF


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Buzzsaw
I think that's a valid point... about saving your guys. at least for a turn. I mean they aren't going to win (9/10 times) so if they're buying time that's good. as long as they dont cost too much I guess.

OT the thing about spawn is that they're fearless and they almost always lose the combat so no retreat sends them to the graveyard pretty quick. the loss is the 40 points and the units they could have been.
AF

yeah i get what you mean, also the spawn have to move to the nearest enemy so if thats termies or meganobz theyre in trouble, i have a chaos army myself and even though i dont have any spawn I could still feel where they could be useful if there was 3 of them charging a unit getting 10 attacks i could see them winning, when i think about having a unit in my army, i test them against TMs at what they specialize in and spawn do quite well although they do take 2 wounds in CC as 1 for the wound and 1 for fearless.

well in truth I have a use for spawn too. Turning the other guy into them

I dont mean so much that spawn are bad in that they're totally useless. I mean the opportunity cost is crippling. the 40 points could have bought a demon weapon for gods sake.
AF

Yeah but with a sorcerer its no cost for getting rid of a unit, great against a squad of guard, turn one into a spawn and they're in combat with it, passes on a 4

@AF:

the pillbox idea is still stupid.

Why? It’s not my idea to begin with. It’s an idea that has been around since the Tau Codex came out, surviving from the first Edition and onto the second Edition of the codex.

Kroot Shooting kills more Marines than the equivalent points of FireWarriors within 24”. It is fact and hence, it is useful for them to claim cover and shoot relatively safely from it, taking down exposed MEQ or better yet GEQ.
Yes, Mech reigns supreme, that is why you have Broadsides/Missile Pod Crisis suits to crack open the metal boxes.

It is just another usage of them. A usage I’ve seen work. Granted that previous statement doesn’t hold any more strength than saying something is stupid.

fire warriors are garbage in close combat you know this.

True, but the idea is to be holistic. And when they have no choice, charging in can be better than the alternative.
IE: charging a unit to draw them off an objective, game winner right there. Situational, yes. But it’s always something to keep in your back pocket because at that point, you have nothing to lose.

you didnt say anything about charging marines with them until someone else brought it up. you were all out of bullets by then so you jumped on that. it happens though that it was a good point so I conceeded it.

I didn’t claim to have given that point. The example given was shot down by you good sir. I came in afterwards to explain why that example was good.

Here it is in chronological order:

AF: each army should play to its strengths. ie shooting for tau.

GoDz: Kroot being better in combat as the others say they can act as bubble wrap for the fire warriors and hold a unit in combat so the tau with WS rubbish don't get killed.

AF: if I can I'll ignore the kroot if they attack me in cc I'll counter attack them with enough force to destroy them and then move on. Face it you're tau you're not going to whip marinesor anyone else in cc

Me: If they held the squad of tactical marines...to then take up more resources with the counter attack, and then die...making them available to be shot at again in the next Tau turn......they have done their job, and then some. I would call them all-stars really.

I hope I’m not missing anything. You disagreed with my point. Then GoDz proposed a possible rationale for my point. You noted what you would do in that situation and didn’t care for the idea. I then explained why GoDz’s rationale was sound and worth another mention/explanation.

For which I am happy that you have seen ‘some’ use for Kroot, I’m even happier that I had some part in it.

1. everything's good if you use it right (a truism)

-I repeat this because it just seems you dismiss things pretty quickly and don’t take a second look, if I am incorrect in this horrid, horrid assumption, then I am sorry.

2. they're scoring (lots of other things are too)

-Yes, and that is a big issue for them. They have the mobility and deployment options to get to objectives…and they are in most cases a better troop unit that Fire Warriors. Again AF, if Tau players were not FORCED to take Fire Warriors, I’m sure a large number would not…Kroot excel in several important areas over Fire Warriors (as explained by others) that make them more desirable.

3. they get 3+ cover and shoot with their bolters. (ignore the 3+ cover bolters are crap)

-Bolters are crap…really? They and their equivalents are the work horse of the 40K universe. They bring them in numbers as well. Bolters are not crap, if they were you wouldn’t use them . They support the special weapons…and add to their flexibility to deal with MEQ/GEQ’s without resorting to flamers.

4. kroot can do other things (again a truism)

-I repeat this because you were dismissing them wholesale, in which I suggested there are other ways to use them. I am treating you not like a baby where I need to spoon feed all the information. I’m sure you can think of useful ways to use them, you just have to take the time and actually use them. Why would you offer advice when you face them non-regularly, don’t use them, etc…
I would make more sense if you seconded the OP’s post and wanted to know more…you could have said, you think they are crap, but x, y, z. Instead you just say:

no they are not.

With an over-generalized statement of playing to their strength that is shooting.
Then Nightbringer’s Chosen in the third post of the thread pretty much summed up the point you see now…only to be shot down by the next post.

5. it's all point of view (more of the same... sigh) 6. everything's subjective (yah yah)

-Which goes back to number 4, I treat you with respect and assume you can figure it out. You have to look at the unit differently and not just a statline in a book.

7. this is quite frustrating (you're telling me lol.)

-Because the advice you give is just so different. I don’t know how to explain it really other the whole offering advice that sounds more like you don’t know how that particular unit fits into the rest of the army (regardless if you know or not).

Right, right, back to my first post.

They are not a combat unit, dispite what their stats look like in relation to other Tau. They are a utility unit.

Right there, remember point 4 about the spoon feeding.
Now if you wanted to, you could have asked, what I mean by utility.
But all you did was:

Tau are not a shooting army?
That's news

And then I explained my position, then etc. etc.
_________________-

But it doesn’t matter now. Your opinion of Kroot has slightly improved and that is a joyous event.
You can agree that they improve the list indirectly, which the same applies with other ‘crap’ units out there.

A perfect example would be the Spawn, which I have enjoyed using in my time with Crap Legion, but it’s way off-topic.
As for Spawn costing a Daemon Weapon, you also have to purchase the Lord, can't have one without the other. In which case 3 Spawn are cheaper than a Lord with a daemon weapon

Three spawn on 120 points, I won't say it's a little, but the oppurtunity cost is around a Dreadnought or a Supped up Dakka Pred, so IMO it's not as much as it looks IMO.

-Sanct.

Sanct
I'm going to address your points as briefly as possible...

1. it's stupid bc bolters are silly. if they sit in cover and shoot you can just ignore them. we've been over this.

2. firewarriors are garbage in close combat. ok you be holistic. This statement is self-evidently true. Why you feel the need to debate it I have no idea.

3. "I dont claim to have made that point." ok. so you werent hammering anything. thankyou.

4. about your horrid horrid assumption. it's not that it it's false. it's that it's obviously true. so obviously true as to be irrelevant and unhelpful. that's called a truism. I want you to look up the word pedantic. find out what that word means. please.

5. yes bolters are crap. really.

6. why should I offer advice. why should anyone? it's a discussion forum. we discuss.

7. offering advice that sounds like.... I normally stick to marine and chaos threads bc I know those armies well. You dont strike me as very knowledgeable about tau either, frankly.

8. about spoon feeding. if you think replacing your usual personal choice sometimes good maybe-if-kinda yak yak is spoon feeding then yes spoon feed me. I call offering specifics and details clairty but w/e.

9. saying tau arent a shooty army was dumb. you know this. right? tell you me you know this. please sanct tell me you realize what a dumb thing that was to say. please.

10. if you have a case to make for a specific crap unit cool. advocating for crap units in general, however, is just, you know.... crap.

11. about opportunity cost and spawn. nitpicking is the sign of a small mind....sanct.

AF

@AF:

1. it's stupid bc bolters are silly. if they sit in cover and shoot you can just ignore them. we've been over this.

It’s prob. my turn to be thick;bolters are the work horse of most MEQ armies, ‘silly’ is far from what I describe them.
As for ignoring them, fine, they get to infiltrate and cover a large portion of the table in what they can shoot at…each member has a 48” diameter bubble of what they can shoot at.

2. firewarriors are garbage in close combat. ok you be holistic. This statement is self-evidently true. Why you feel the need to debate it I have no idea.

I didn’t say ‘you have no idea’, I’m only noting they can win combats and have done so in the past. In addition, I presented a gaming winning (in my experience and those of others in the past) option that is available for the firewarriors. Just because their statistics say they are garbage in close combat doesn’t mean you never charge them into combat.

3. "I dont claim to have made that point." ok. so you werent hammering anything. thankyou.

Ughh, we(everybody and I) are hammering the point that they are useful…the Pillbox was around as long as the Tau Codex existed. I’m noting it down as something Kroot have been synonymous with and what they do well with.

4. about your horrid horrid assumption. it's not that it it's false. it's that it's obviously true. so obviously true as to be irrelevant and unhelpful. that's called a truism. I want you to look up the word pedantic. find out what that word means. please.

So… you make sweeping over-generalizations and are calling me pedantic when I try to explain that things are not that simple.
You’ve ignored the point where I objectively explained why the kroot holding up the Tacticals was a good thing. If that is being pedantic, unhelpful, and irrelevant then I don’t see how you could have make a change of heart about the kroot.

You say that bolters are crap. A statement like that is asking for a response.
You originally said that Kroot are not worth it. A statement like that is asking for a response.
This is a forum to exchange ideas, in which case everybody is being pedantic as the details are what make up the meat of any tactics thread.

5. yes bolters are crap. really.

Agree to disagree. It’s been 5 editions and it’s still going strong as the standard at which others measure by.

6. why should I offer advice. why should anyone? it's a discussion forum. we discuss.

Really? Then telling the OP that Kroot are not worth it in the beginning is not ‘advice’?

7. offering advice that sounds like.... I normally stick to marine and chaos threads bc I know those armies well. You dont strike me as very knowledgeable about tau either, frankly.

Really, then you are incorrect.
It’s good that you are sticking with what you know. Which leads me to the point you are avoiding: why ‘discuss’ this topic opening up with a ‘no’ with little supporting information.

8. about spoon feeding. if you think replacing your usual personal choice sometimes good maybe-if-kinda yak yak is spoon feeding then yes spoon feed me. I call offering specifics and details clairty but w/e.

Now you want details and clarity after calling it being pedantic.
I noted down Pillbox, maybe you could have used a search function about it, but instead you called it stupid without really knowing what it is about.

9. saying tau arent a shooty army was dumb. you know this. right? tell you me you know this. please sanct tell me you realize what a dumb thing that was to say. please.

You call it being pedantic. Just because they shoot doesn’t mean they are primarily a shooting army…they are an Air Type army that needs to get their shooting to where they need it for maximum return. A gunline which is a shooty army does not work very well in 5 th…and as we resolved it’s a different of defninition.
You can not win with Tau without being able to maneuver. Tau do not bring enough guns nor enough accuracy with them without spending resources on actual supporting units.

10. if you have a case to make for a specific crap unit cool. advocating for crap units in general, however, is just, you know.... crap.

I am only saying that they are functional. The best you can say is that they are a niche unit. Though it still sounds you think they are crap, even if they perform a near mandatory role in the Tau army.
‘Crap Units’ are functional, else they wouldn’t be in the codex.
And I do suggest competitive options, but I do not post in ignorance that units that are perceived as crap can’t perform extraordinarily. It’s self-fulfilling prophecy if one approaches a unit they think is crap and use them poorly. Their fault is being narrow in application. Which people may not like, but it does not make them ‘crap’. They are not useless nor nonsense.

11. about opportunity cost and spawn. nitpicking is the sign of a small mind....sanct.

To suggest what the options are if one were to not use Spawn after replying to a poster that noted down the opportunity cost of a spawn is nitpicking? If find details are important, if you don’t then that’s where this back and forthing is coming from.
___________________________
As an aside, here are some links to other Kroot information resources.
Note: they are dated, but funny enough, not much has changed:

Here:
http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/tau-empire/77766-kroot-tactica.html
http://z8.invisionfree.com/KompletelyKroot/index.php?showtopic=53

Here’s more from Dakka:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60325.page#60724
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/54457.page#54928
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/218646.page#385181
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236681.page#668731

If you go through them, it’s funny, there’s a post that has a similar Title as this thread…

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Hector
If someone's going to make a case how they help tau shoot better, I'm certainly open to that. So is what you're saying that they'll buy tau an extra turn if blood angels get in their face? of course they arent going to win against hard core assault units....

It's not about the cover save or the kroot gun or whether or not they do anything in assault--or ever even fight in assault. It's that they're infiltrating infantry models.

Infantry models block the movement of other models during the movement phase (except tanks), during deployment/outflanking/deepstriking, and during scout moves.

In deployment and turn one, there are spots on the table where your opponent is going to want to scout his vehicles, fly his antitank skimmers, deepstrike his pods, infiltrate his infiltrators whatever--in order to be able to kill your tanks or assault your crisis suits in turn 1 or 2. You park 10 kroot in that spot--or in a spot that pushes back his deployment--and that prevents your opponent from going there until after he deals with the kroot. The 1 or 2 turns it takes him to deal with the kroot gives you extra turns of shooting, or lets you move away.

During turn 2 and later, if your opponent has outflankers, he's going to want them to come in at a particular spot where they can melta your tanks and/or assault your suits. Put a line of kroot along that table edge, and infantry/bike outflankers can't enter there.

Kroot and piranhas working together can force your enemy to deploy and move to places he doesn't want to by interdicting movement. That slows down his movement and gives you extra shooting time--enhancing the strength of the rest of the army whether the kroot & piranhas actually kill anything or not.

Counter-Infiltration is a nice one.
In addition, the simple deployment after the opponent's main forces lets them somewhat pick their fights, more power to them.

There's the possibility of nice side shots on a Chimera Wall or taking out some hiding Vypers/Land Speeders/Trukks.

Sanct
you're just repeating yourself. I've already addressed 90% of that. If you find it frustrating that's really too bad. Read a book or try listening to some relaxing music. Don't want you to be upset.

I'll start another thread about bolters. I dont have the interest or energy to keep going round and round w you about kroot or the relative merits of your "shades of grey" approach to everything.
AF

AF:
You sound as if 'the shades of grey' are a bad thing.
And yet the Shade of Grey has reached you and has changed your opinion of Kroot a little bit.

I'm sorry if I sound upset, I'm not. I'm expressing my opinions and trying to explain the rationale behind them when they are refuted or unbelieved.

You may have experiences where things are crap, I'm only bringing to light I've had different experiences with them that show they do better than what you may have described them like.

The KFC unit of Tau is a worthy choice as discussed here and in the years of discussions about them that have not altered too much. (At the very least,) They help the list by economically dying 'for the Greater Good.'