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focusedfire wrote:First, Do you think GW will start charging for game table use?

GW is run by Jack Kirby, not Bob Kotic.

That means their decisions will have more stupidity involved than pure evil.

I am definitely in the camp that such a fee is possible, given the bone-headed things GW has done in the past.

I think it would be a bad idea though, as it would give FLGS an angle: Come play here, the tables are free!

now personally, while i think that paying for table use in a GW is dumb, on the other hand, paying a "club fee" the way you do for places like 24 hour fitness, golds gym, bowling alleys (in the form of league fees) and other club type establishments would probably get my attention.

reasons being that, if my membership fee had advantages attached, such as table space, the ability to game in non-store hours (say a store is open from 11-1900 but the "club" continues its operation until later, say 2100 or maybe later if the club owner/leader has a game that is still ongoing and its all cool with everyone) "better" scenery to use on those tables, and maybe a discount for purchasing a certain level or amount of items from the store.

that being said, i still think that free tables are the way to go for any gaming store, unless they have "benefits" to a true club style.

My store here in the midwest has been asked repeatedly by it's players to start a club sort of scene.

His store is a FLGS, and is constantly overrun and filled by tabletop RP'ers and MTG players who come in, buy nothing, and consume his space.

If he said to us that Friday nights or every other friday night is a league night only, which has a 15 dollar fee, but games are a sure thing and the store is only occupied by the friendlier, more knowledgable wargamers with rules knowledge and whatnot, we would cheer indefinately.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: Actually, I think it's a good idea in general for all games being ran by a FLGS. It's a drain on resources to have a million squatter sitting around. If you promise a GREAT evening that's a fun experience for attending, then it's worth it to pay a small fee.

I used to pay to play in CCG league that was a load of fun and had cool prize support.

Thunderfrog wrote:My store here in the midwest has been asked repeatedly by it's players to start a club sort of scene.

His store is a FLGS, and is constantly overrun and filled by tabletop RP'ers and MTG players who come in, buy nothing, and consume his space.

If he said to us that Friday nights or every other friday night is a league night only, which has a 15 dollar fee, but games are a sure thing and the store is only occupied by the friendlier, more knowledgable wargamers with rules knowledge and whatnot, we would cheer indefinately.

this sounds to me like a case that was solved rather effectively by a FLGS back in colorado where i was stationed previously.... Basically, the owners had posted a calendar. After a set time, iirc it was 1800 (6pm) the tables were "reserved" for a particular game on a given night.... if you were in an hour beforehand, you could play whatever game you wished, but should you show up after 6, and wanted to play a game that wasnt expressly on the calendar, you would either have to wait until "all" games were up and running, and any table space left for MTG, or whichever game system you were playing could be used. This calendar was used for league nights as well. Because of the nature of the base i was on, there were alot of deployments, so if you came home from iraq or afghanistan in the middle of a league, but played 40k or whfb, you could easily show up on "league night" and find a game in your desired game system, and potentially join the league in progress, or fill a hole from a no-show, etc.

tallshortguy wrote:No, if anything because the vast majority will stop going to their stores to play. Having players basically show off produce is pretty much free advertising for them. To charge for table use would be a massively stupid move by corporate so I doubt they are really that blind.

It is funny but people have been saying something similar for many years about GW price increases(Including me). Thing is, it is an excuse to get out of the house, to get away from your problems or just to keep you from going stir crazy. If handled properly I doubt it would have much of a negative impact and it might even increase business once people start to get the idea of maybe renting the tables for events.

madmartykmf wrote:I think the better question may be when do you think they will remove the tables?? I spoke to a manager who speculates that the slower volume stores need to be less of a gaming club and more of a retail store. Ever heard of "BOX HAMMER"?? If you are close to a GW store manager ask!! The tide is turning to "here buy this and leave", and less hanging out to play. Just my 2 cents though.

This is another reason of why charging for the table use might improve the hobby. DW is shooting itself in the foot here in the states by going to the tiny European style stores. IMO, that is the biggest limiting issue to GW North America's success. They need to put individuals who understand the US market in charge over here and give them the autonomy to operate in a manner more fitting for north american market.

Again IMO, Pulling tables and cutting store space is one of the worst moves that GW has made over here. It is right up there with when they locked into the contracts for the overly expensive mall space in the Mills malls. They should find a successful string of independent stores, clone them and then back off and give the stores enough time and freedom to extablish themselves.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:The difference is that the bowling halls etc are primarily about hiring the space for playing the game.

The primary business of GW is manufacture and retail.

You are generally not going to your local friendly Slazenger or Dunlop store to play tennis. You are going to a club or sports venue and renting space for the privilage of playing.

Think of it this way, would GW increase sales by getting rid of the tables and having the space occupied by more display units for their products?

1)That is the Crux of the situation, GW is about making minuratures, but without the game there is no real reason to buy them. GW seems to be forgetting this.
Sure, some people will buy the figurines but most will move to less expensive models that have an incorporated game system.

2)Not to the dunlop or sports store to play but many will buy at the club stores for the convenience. GW promotes itself as a somewhat elite hobby, yet they are backing away from the proven business models for such. By renting the tables and allowing people to reserve the tables on certain historically slow nights for non-GW events, they have a chance to expand their market by bringing people in that might otherwise never set foot into the store.

3)Will GW increase sales by getting rid of the game tables? GW, seems to think so. IMO, I think it will kill their retail sales and drive coustomers to the independents. That is another thing GW needs to fix, their relationshiop with the various independent stores that they drove off a few years back.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Also how much would they be able to charge?
I cannot see the fees being worth their while.

How would they allocate time? Would they limit games to 1000 points for example.

Would they get enough games played through the day to make it worthwhile?

A)The fees could be handled in any of several ways...A club fee that nets you 5-10% discounts, An hourly upfront fee for necromunda players and maybe people that want to use nice tables for their historical wargames. Could open new markets. You would be surprised at the number of historical modelers that have no real idea as to what 40k really is.

B)Time could be allocate time the same way they do for tournaments, but with a little slack or options to buy in increments. Honestly, most people have a set schedule and being able to reserve a table to guarantee their schedule would be considered a positive.

C)Every game paid and played would help cover operational costs that are currently being deemed as too expensive to justify(employees and table space).

Fishboy wrote:The answer to this is very simple whether specualtion or not.

What tables?!!?!?! Have you seen the size of the "up and coming" GW store?!? They are so small and open for such odd hours the chance of getting a game is slim to none.

Again, exactly. If given a choice between the large uncramped stores that have 4-6 tables or stores with no tables, I would not mind a reasonable fee. I would prefer that GW stopped gouging us, but if they want to drive us all towards the independents and their game tables, so be it.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:now personally, while i think that paying for table use in a GW is dumb, on the other hand, paying a "club fee" the way you do for places like 24 hour fitness, golds gym, bowling alleys (in the form of league fees) and other club type establishments would probably get my attention.

reasons being that, if my membership fee had advantages attached, such as table space, the ability to game in non-store hours (say a store is open from 11-1900 but the "club" continues its operation until later, say 2100 or maybe later if the club owner/leader has a game that is still ongoing and its all cool with everyone) "better" scenery to use on those tables, and maybe a discount for purchasing a certain level or amount of items from the store.

that being said, i still think that free tables are the way to go for any gaming store, unless they have "benefits" to a true club style.

+1 to Ensis Ferrae-I agree with everything in this post and think you just made a very good case for a "GW Frequent Slayer Club".

Ensis Ferrae wrote:this sounds to me like a case that was solved rather effectively by a FLGS back in colorado where i was stationed previously.... Basically, the owners had posted a calendar. After a set time, iirc it was 1800 (6pm) the tables were "reserved" for a particular game on a given night.... if you were in an hour beforehand, you could play whatever game you wished, but should you show up after 6, and wanted to play a game that wasnt expressly on the calendar, you would either have to wait until "all" games were up and running, and any table space left for MTG, or whichever game system you were playing could be used. This calendar was used for league nights as well. Because of the nature of the base i was on, there were alot of deployments, so if you came home from iraq or afghanistan in the middle of a league, but played 40k or whfb, you could easily show up on "league night" and find a game in your desired game system, and potentially join the league in progress, or fill a hole from a no-show, etc.

You talking about Gamers Haven or was Complete running a similar set-up?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

focusedfire wrote:First, Do you think GW will start charging for game table use?

GW is run by Jack Kirby, not Bob Kotic.

That means their decisions will have more stupidity involved than pure evil.

I love you, so very, very much.

Fafnir wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

focusedfire wrote:First, Do you think GW will start charging for game table use?

GW is run by Jack Kirby, not Bob Kotic.

That means their decisions will have more stupidity involved than pure evil.

I love you, so very, very much.

I understand the Jack Kirby to Chairman Kirby reference/dig but do not understand the connection between the former CFO of the UoS and the GW board of directors, Could you elaborate on the joke?

FocusedFire wrote:Again, exactly. If given a choice between the large uncramped stores that have 4-6 tables or stores with no tables, I would not mind a reasonable fee. I would prefer that GW stopped gouging us, but if they want to drive us all towards the independents and their game tables, so be it.

You do realize that is their, according to some 'insiders', stated goal right?

Games Workshop has realized, in the US at least, that their shops are always going to be poorly placed to be really effective as places where gamers will congregate. They're shifting towards making the 'official' GW stores places where you can get in some demo games, make your early purchases...and then they point you towards the FLGS stockist, who has a league ready and waiting for you with open arms.

focusedfire wrote:
You talking about Gamers Haven or was Complete running a similar set-up?

yeah, there was Gamers Haven, or almost right across the street, Castle Games

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

focusedfire wrote:
You talking about Gamers Haven or was Complete running a similar set-up?

yeah, there was Gamers Haven, or almost right across the street, Castle Games

Haven still runs their calendar. It's my semi-regular haunt for games these days.

hungryp wrote:
It's essentially free advertising. Maybe it's giving too much undeserved credit, but I'd say somebody somewhere realizes that. That's why stores like the nearest one to me have silly rules like "If you're using the tables, please use the ones closest to the front of the store first." No, I'm not kidding...

That's relatively common attitude in several tiers of the restaurant business as well.

Off Topic:

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

focusedfire wrote:
You talking about Gamers Haven or was Complete running a similar set-up?

yeah, there was Gamers Haven, or almost right across the street, Castle Games

Yeah I like Gamers haven. Used to spend about 3 months out of the year in the area and it was my favorite store at which to play. As to Castle Games, Went in one time and they lost my business. I was looking through their old 40K stuff and got a full court press about how I needed to sell my 40K"crap" and invest in Warmachine. Even after I told them that I had friends all over the country with whom I played 40K.


On Topic:

Kanluwen wrote:
You do realize that is their, according to some 'insiders', stated goal right?

Games Workshop has realized, in the US at least, that their shops are always going to be poorly placed to be really effective as places where gamers will congregate. They're shifting towards making the 'official' GW stores places where you can get in some demo games, make your early purchases...and then they point you towards the FLGS stockist, who has a league ready and waiting for you with open arms.

A)There seems to be conflict as to the stated goal within GW.

B) GW trying to move back towards an old rogue traders set-up sounds nice, but the reality is that times have changed. When the various rogue traders store helped to build the Warhammer gaming systems GW had a unique product and a friendly relationship with their independent retailers. In the present, Independent stores stock to many competing brands and do not have as much incentive to stock or push the GW product as some of the competing systems.

IMO, any move by GW to distance themselves from the gaming community is the business equivalent of shooting themselves in the foot.

Question: Which would you rather see, Small stores with no tables or larger stores/clubs that have ample table space but require table/membership fees? I know, we all would rather that GW kept the large stores without fees, but if that is not an option, "Which of the two do you see being better for the 40K game?".

A) Of course there's conflict with the stated goals...and it's not actually within GW. Because we're not actually seeing "the stated goal", we're seeing what a bunch of supposed 'insiders' who feed us rumors about models and business practices are telling us.

B) Independent stores stocking "too many competing brands" also have no real incentive to push those competing systems. The two independent stores that I've seen locally, one of which I went to for 12ish years before they finally closed down due to the place they were leasing from not allowing them to pick their lease back up and the other which is relatively new but has the same customer base as before...neither of them actually have ever had any kind of incentive to push non-GW stuff.

GW has done damned fine by these local shops, and thus their games get regular shelf-space and first dibs on tables for gaming. Flames of War also does incredibly well in helping them get the ball rolling and people interested.

Warmachine/Hordes, the supposed "Posterboys of Customer Support" don't even get stocked, not after the crap Privateer pulled on them promising support for demo games and then tacking a ridiculously exorbitant fee and 'requiring' their stuff gets put up front right as you walk in the door.

But which model of store would I rather see?

I'd rather see independents being given support, and GW shops acting much like they do right now...as the 'kindergartens' of 40k/WHFB.

Apperantly we in Denver are missing something...
(Edit: I love the groupd of regulars at our store to death, I'm not bashing the gamers (for those of you reading this ))

On topic, I think it'd be more beneficial for GW, particularly in the US, to keep the tables in the store. Many times while playing at GW (while we still had one), people would come in and watch the games being played on the big tables, and would express no intrest at all in the small demo tables. Not having those people in there playing would not draw nearly as many potential customers into the store. Also, not charging for tables will keep more people coming into the store, which means a larger group of (more or less) steady consumers. Also, the product sold at the GW gives them more money per unit than though an independent stockist. So from a business stand point, I don't see why they'd want to charge for tables ever.

From a consumer stand point, it'd frustrate me to pay for a table if it's not handled well or properly. If I have to sit around and wait for a table to open up even after I've paid, or still have to put up with some of the people who would be detered by paying for a table (ie, small kids, TFGs, or being in close proximity to said individuals), I'd probably never game at that store again. If it's handled well, I could probably see myself attending said store more regularly or more often. But to be honest, I doubt GW would handle charging for tables well, and so I think it'd hurt the community to much if they did.

focusedfire wrote:Off Topic:

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

focusedfire wrote:
You talking about Gamers Haven or was Complete running a similar set-up?

yeah, there was Gamers Haven, or almost right across the street, Castle Games

Yeah I like Gamers haven. Used to spend about 3 months out of the year in the area and it was my favorite store at which to play. As to Castle Games, Went in one time and they lost my business. I was looking through their old 40K stuff and got a full court press about how I needed to sell my 40K"crap" and invest in Warmachine. Even after I told them that I had friends all over the country with whom I played 40K.

You should see the signs they have up now. Something about due to rising costs of GW product, they can't afford to give discounts on GW products.

How Long Before GW Charges for Table Use?

Depends. How long until kids stop being between the ages of 8-13?

And I don't just mean the current generation. I mean like, how long until kids actually just completely skip that age range. Like, they turn 7 and then next birthday *BAM* 14.

Long as that age bracket remains, we're safe.

Something to bear in mind is that in the UK it is more common to game in clubs rather than in stores.

Virtually all clubs will charge either a membership fee, a day fee or both.

So, we're used to paying to play over here.

Rather common in Australia, too.

The two clubs I frequent charge $10 per meet.
This is to cover venue hire.

My local club have it easy. We pay $40 to hire the boardroom of a local sports club for the day.

The other one costs around $350-400 to hire for the day.

We need 4 adults a meet locally to make it pay. The other club needs 35-40. And they have local competition in the form of a local games store with tables.

If I walked into my local GW and was told it was £x to play on a table, I would most probably walk out and spend the money on a table to play at home.

However, if I played in a gaming club (lamentably none exist in the vicinity) and was told 'book a table, put £x in the jar', and I knew that that £x was going to be reinvested into the club (e.g. next time I pay £x it will be on a table with an actual hill, and not a stack of magazines) and not to line the pockets of the founder then I would gladly do so, simply as without my contribution the club will be destined to a dank grave in a grubby shed with a single wallpapering table and some rubbish thrown on as terrain).

My local hobby store charges to play... 15 dollars a day

Fizzics wrote:My local hobby store charges to play... 15 dollars a day

Ouch, that's a bit steep.

My veiwpoint as a retailer is that I want to make all the $$$$ that I possibly can. Scrooge McDuck is my boyhood hero.

My crafty plan involves lots of gaming tables, tons of scenery, and not charging for it. More gamers playing in the store = more gamers giving me their $$$.
It's a simple and devious plan that has worked for years. I'd guess we put about 1000.00 a year into scenery for the various game systems, and I'd say it's absolutely paid back by increased sales of miniatures.

Plus I get to make lots of scenery, something I enjoy.

tallshortguy wrote:No, if anything because the vast majority will stop going to their stores to play. Having players basically show off produce is pretty much free advertising for them.

No matter how many heads of lettuce I see, it doesn't make me buy more space marines, pal.

Ouze wrote:

tallshortguy wrote:No, if anything because the vast majority will stop going to their stores to play. Having players basically show off produce is pretty much free advertising for them.

No matter how many heads of lettuce I see, it doesn't make me buy more space marines, pal.

I don't know, it works for me. Of course, I work in a produce warehouse and spend lots of time thinking about hobby stuff.

I might pay 1-5 GBP for a AWSOME gaming table, (when I say awsome I mean awsome) which was at least 6ft by 12ft. Otherwise I would just make my own or play on the free ones. I know at warhammer world near me all the tables are free unless you want several putting together for a massive game, which is fair enough. they make there money on the beer and food which is a good system.

There's a lot of talk from players of stopping the game if charged for table usage, which I don't think many of us would do. What I do think would happen is that a lot of feelings would be hurt by a decision like that, and in a setting so nerdy, and "fun" it seems absurd to charge for things unnecessarily, especially in situations where it will offend your audience.

Some have touched on this in their posts.
I feel GW does indirectly charge people for playing in their shops. For a long time the local GW store had several painting regulations, were imposing must be modeling, paitning, gaming or get restrictions, and wouldn't even let you sit down to read a army book. This all did stop about a year and a half ago during their large turn over period.

In the days of GW Cherry Hill, NJ, one of the managers had a restriction your army had to be fully painted or no playing for you. Indirectly, this forced people to invest in large amounts of primer, paint, and products just to play. I drew the line when they started asking players to purchase items consistently to improve armies. I already had 3K of Iron Warriors, a full time job, and grad school, why start another army? Thankfully there was again a change over in staff and those restrictions went by the way side.

I, as someone else here mentioned, would not mind something like a $5 per month charge, to keep some of the random kids from running around. However, I understand the business side, kids spend parents money too. Its a line, i'm not thinking in the near future, but I could see one day a club fee getting offered to join a local GW stores "club."

Back in the late 90's, early 2000's the Baltimore Battle Bunker charged to play, and your models had to be fully painted.

The place was usually packed on the weekends.

They eventually stopped charging, and got rid of the painting requirement.

I think this promoted an increase in TFGism.

As silly of an idea that is, I wouldn't be too supprsed as the company seems to be ran by chimps.

That being said, if they charge me for table space, they better have some red shirt moving my men around and asking if I have enough to drink.

brother_zach wrote:As sill of an idea that is, I wouldn't be too supprsed as the company seems to be ran by chimps.

That being said, if they charge me for table space, they better have some red shirt moving my men around and asking if I have enough to drink.

could you imagine... have someone in the room with their wooden model mover standing there, where you give them the "coordinates" of where you want them to go, and how to form... just like the people in the RAFs fighter command during the Battle of Britain