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Samus_aran115 wrote:Nurgle bikers are cool as hell, IMO. T6? Yesss. Probably too expensive for what they are though.

Well, Nurgle Bikers are what I use for Daemon Bombing, but what I meant was Cult Nurgle, not Renegade Nurgle. I mean, Death Guard was (fluff wise) an almost Infantry exclusive legion, wasn't it?

Slarg232 wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:Nurgle bikers are cool as hell, IMO. T6? Yesss. Probably too expensive for what they are though.

Well, Nurgle Bikers are what I use for Daemon Bombing, but what I meant was Cult Nurgle, not Renegade Nurgle. I mean, Death Guard was (fluff wise) an almost Infantry exclusive legion, wasn't it?

Yep.

Bolters and boots. I believe that if you took more than 2 Rhinos for your plague marines the additional rhinos were counted as Fast Attack. So yeah, not very into being fast.

which makes sense. worshippers of decay probably wouldnt be too much into vehicle maintenance.

Brother SRM wrote:I also stand firmly against giving Chaos Marines any more loyalist stuff. I'd like the two armies to be as different as can be while still being fluffy.

Fourthed. The motion is carried.

What I wouldn't object to seeing, however, is for Undivided and Cult armies to get options to have Traitor Guardsmen.

Maybe for every Chaos Lord you have, you can take up to 2 Traitor Guard/Mortal Cultists that don't count towards your Troop requirements?

I know a guy who was running a traitor guard army with converted CSM counting as allied Grey Knights. It was pretty sick.

well.... as long as imperials have storm shields and traitors dont the loyalists are going to have a big advantage. Its not exactly fluffy for them to have later model imperial stuff but they should either be roughly comparable in their abilities (read: 3++ invuln) or chaos terminators should go down in price. I'm ok with giving chaos some imperial stuff because they can scavenge a battlefield like anyone else, and legions do turn renegade and take their phat toys with them. it should just cost more to reflect the difficulty traitors have obtaining/maintaining that equipment.

Right now chaos has some serious mobility issues. This could be fixed by giving them drop pods and letting them take jump pack guys as troops. The 1st is pretty well attested in the HH novels: drop pods were around in spades during the crusade. The 2nd might be a specialist formation like for night lords, who it is pretty clear are every bit as big on mobility as scars or blood angels. However they do it the lack of mobility is one of the biggest hindrances to the chaos codex as it stands now: rhino rushing or walking just plain old sucks. Besides plastic dread claws would be cool.

Oh and I'd like it if they made raptors good again. they were pretty elite in the 3.5 book and they were crazy good in the 3.0 book (if you lost the combat you ran - no leadership test no nothing you just break.) Now they're just bozos with jump packs.
AF

I really don't want CSM to become Spiky SM any more than they already are.

That said, I think the solution to 3++ equivalents could be Tson cult terminators.

Give them power weapon, TL Bolter, and 3++ Invul (Including MoT), and inferno bolts. Oh and maybe SNP if not joined to a psychic model. Maybe only 1 base attack too since they're not very CC oriented.

Fluffy, different, and solves the 3++ issue (well, unless you want 3++ Khorne terminators or something...)

Anyway, I agree with making raptors more than Assault Marines. They're pretty much the same since their Icons are too damn expensive for what they do.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:well.... as long as imperials have storm shields and traitors dont the loyalists are going to have a big advantage.

No, they really don't. Every Chaos Terminator comes with a Power Weapon/Twin-Linked Bolter as standard, with the option to take lightning claw, powerfist, or chainfist in lieu of the power weapon and a Combi-Weapon in lieu of the Bolter.
They really don't need Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers to make "Assault Terminator" squads, especially not with the ability to take Marks of Chaos.

Its not exactly fluffy for them to have later model imperial stuff but they should either be roughly comparable in their abilities (read: 3++ invuln) or chaos terminators should go down in price. I'm ok with giving chaos some imperial stuff because they can scavenge a battlefield like anyone else, and legions do turn renegade and take their phat toys with them. it should just cost more to reflect the difficulty traitors have obtaining/maintaining that equipment.

First off: 3+ Invulnerability for Terminators is with a Storm Shield. Without it, Terminators have exactly the same statline on both sides(excepting Dark Angels, whose Storm Shields are 4+ Invulnerability).
Second:
Legions don't exist anymore. Legions were a Heresy/Crusade era organization, and have been dead long since.
Chapters are what you're trying to say, and it's incredibly rare for an entire Chapter at this point in the 40k timeline to go renegade. At most, you see individual or squads of Marines turning renegade now, and there's no way in hell they are bringing enough material to equip whole squads.

Oh, and in regards to scavenging equipment?
Any idiot can scavenge something. It's much harder to make it functional enough to operate.

Right now chaos has some serious mobility issues. This could be fixed by giving them drop pods and letting them take jump pack guys as troops. The 1st is pretty well attested in the HH novels: drop pods were around in spades during the crusade. The 2nd might be a specialist formation like for Night Lords, who it is pretty clear are every bit as big on mobility as scars or blood angels. However they do it the lack of mobility is one of the biggest hindrances to the chaos codex as it stands now: rhino rushing or walking just plain old sucks. Besides plastic dread claws would be cool.

Drop Pods were, in fact, not around "in spades" during the Crusades/Heresy. The Dreadclaw was being faded out of service at the time of the Horus Heresy in favor of the Drop Pod, but Stormbirds and Thunderhawks however were around in spades.
The lack of Drop Pods is easily attributable to the fact that the Chaos Legions may not have the technology to refurbish and reuse Drop Pods, unlike the Loyalists.

As for Night Lords...they're big on mobility, but they're also not big on using vehicles in place of a well-trained infiltration squad, a very well-timed teleport assault, Thunderhawk deployment, etc.

Oh and I'd like it if they made raptors good again. they were pretty elite in the 3.5 book and they were crazy good in the 3.0 book (if you lost the combat you ran - no leadership test no nothing you just break.) Now they're just bozos with jump packs.
AF

Kanluwen wrote:As for Night Lords...they're big on mobility, but they're also not big on using vehicles in place of a well-trained infiltration squad, a very well-timed teleport assault, Thunderhawk deployment, etc.

This is arguable as vehicles (like dread claws) can play a vital role in their infiltrations and assaults. They certainly have plenty of tanks, even including Vindicators. I know they're not Iron Warriors, of course.

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:Everytime I look at the CSM dex', I get more and more disappoint with it.

1. Bring back Chaos Armor Not every marine army gets artificer army get over it.
2. Chaos Storm Shields No. chaos never had them and probably (hopefully) never will.
3. Mastercrafted Weapons... No codex written in 5th ed. has had them as an option why should they?
4. Bring back lesser daemons Agreed. Codex daemons was a dumb idea fluff wise.
5. Bring back greater daemons Also agreed.
5. Bring the doomrider back meh
6. FOC allowances sort of like loyalist codex** Play loyalists..
7. Juggernaut riders units. Play daemons (or space wolves).
8. Land Raider variants (Something different from LRC or LRR) Nope. you get defilers and you already stole the SM vindicator.
9. Bring back storm bolters Nope. they weren't put into widespread use before the heresy Abby's the only chaos dude that has one.
10. Drop pods/ dreadclaws No. balance issue.
11. Keep kharne exactly the same.

I am all for differentiating Chaos by not giving 5th edition chaos every imperial toy when relevant. Anyone savvy with the book is well aware that it is lacking some core options that loyalist players might take for granted. The majority of things players list in this thread will not be too bad. Most chaos players collect and love chaos because of all the things that make up chaos and are well aware if they want to use loyalist rules, they can use a loyalist book. Some of the criticisms stated like the ones above are pretty weak so I’ll address some quick misconceptions.

• Chaos armour. Chaos had this in their last 2 codices and there weren’t any problems then. Generic loyalist HQs can purchase runic armour/artificer armour and sanguinary guard/honour guard come with 2+ armour as standard. Not seeing any balance issue here considering chaos armour would most likely be restricted to HQs, SCs and retinues. Units containing 2+ armour aren’t really a balance issues considering any unit containing them usually has a bloated point cost.

• Storm shields. 3++ saves for 5th edition armies is pretty much standard wouldn’t make much sense for close quarters leaning army like chaos to not have access to some form of 3++ capable unit. No balance issues here and no counter arguments other than “my toys, I’m not sharing”.

• Dread Claws/Drop pods. Chaos currently has mobility issues with only 2 forms of transport, 10 man rhinos and 10 man landraiders. Imperials currently have rhinos, razorbacks, drop pods, 10-12 man land raiders, 14-16 man land raider variants (6 total). Giving chaos another form of transport other than 2 10 man tanks is not going to *unbalance* anything. Dread claws operate differently to drop pods anyway.

• LR Variant/unique chaos LR variant/terminator transport option higher than 10 men. Again to alleviate transport issues and additional issues in regards to terminator transport. Currently, because chaos does not have a terminator transport option higher then 10 men and as a result chaos players are unable to viably take a terminator unit higher than 5 men.

• Juggernaught riders/Daemonic cavalry/fast attack daemons. Chaos currently has 2 fast attack options, bikers and raptors, that is all. Chaos has had a long and fluffy history with daemonic cavalry units and the last 2 books had cavalry type units. I fail to see any balance issue here. It is impossible to say such a unit would be unbalanced, without seeing its profile and what synergy it is capable of.

• FOC options. Could work if the 5th edition codex is designed differently. Currently there are no FOC modifiers in the chaos book because all the cult units are already troop choices (where as they used to be elite choices, unlocked as a troop choice when the army is lead by a relevant HQ). Ideally a 5th edition chaos book would restore the elites->troops system or use a similar system (such as cult troops listed as 0-1 unless army contains relevant HQ). This pretty much leaves a lot of room as far as additional options and balance is concerned



All in call, cries of cheese should be limited to the actual 5th edition book and not hypothetical internet lists.

Kanluwen wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:well.... as long as imperials have storm shields and traitors dont the loyalists are going to have a big advantage.

No, they really don't. Every Chaos Terminator comes with a Power Weapon/Twin-Linked Bolter as standard, with the option to take lightning claw, powerfist, or chainfist in lieu of the power weapon and a Combi-Weapon in lieu of the Bolter.
They really don't need Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers to make "Assault Terminator" squads, especially not with the ability to take Marks of Chaos.

well every loyalist comes with a storm bolter so chaos and codex are pretty even there.
of course we have more options. we pay for them and it fits our theme (chaos=individualism rather than regementation)
marks of chaos are a joke on chaos terminators. except the mark of tzeentch. precisely because it buffs their invulnerable save.
3++ invuln is crazy good. loyalists get it for free, so whats wrong with giving it to chaos terminators if we pay 5 points a piece like blood angels or even 10 points a piece?

kanluwen wrote:

abaddonfidelis wrote:
Its not exactly fluffy for them to have later model imperial stuff but they should either be roughly comparable in their abilities (read: 3++ invuln) or chaos terminators should go down in price. I'm ok with giving chaos some imperial stuff because they can scavenge a battlefield like anyone else, and legions do turn renegade and take their phat toys with them. it should just cost more to reflect the difficulty traitors have obtaining/maintaining that equipment.

First off: 3+ Invulnerability for Terminators is with a Storm Shield. Without it, Terminators have exactly the same statline on both sides(excepting Dark Angels, whose Storm Shields are 4+ Invulnerability).
Second:
Legions don't exist anymore. Legions were a Heresy/Crusade era organization, and have been dead long since.
Chapters are what you're trying to say, and it's incredibly rare for an entire Chapter at this point in the 40k timeline to go renegade. At most, you see individual or squads of Marines turning renegade now, and there's no way in hell they are bringing enough material to equip whole squads.
Oh, and in regards to scavenging equipment?
Any idiot can scavenge something. It's much harder to make it functional enough to operate.

1st off: yeah thats true. so what? where are you going with that?
2nd: oh sorry chapters not legions. you're right. I bow before your superior nerd-knowledge.
3rd: ummm... chapters do in fact go renegade.... but even if its just a squad or a company.... just speaking for myself, I'd want to make sure I was well armed before going renegade. So whats some of the best equipment codex marines have? storm shields. But like I said just make it more expensive.
To your point about scavenging.... yeah.... its really really tough to make it work... all you have to do is find the activation rune and press it. way too difficult for your average super soldier, whose entire life is spent fighting and training to fight, to figure out.
Or.... here's a radical concept.... the renegades have the dark mechanicus make storm shields based on captured imperial models bc they're tired of getting pwned by them. and dont give me any crap about how the dark mechanicus cant figure it out. They built abaddon a planet killer for gods sake they aren't stupid.

kanluwen wrote:

abaddonfidelis wrote:Right now chaos has some serious mobility issues. This could be fixed by giving them drop pods and letting them take jump pack guys as troops. The 1st is pretty well attested in the HH novels: drop pods were around in spades during the crusade. The 2nd might be a specialist formation like for Night Lords, who it is pretty clear are every bit as big on mobility as scars or blood angels. However they do it the lack of mobility is one of the biggest hindrances to the chaos codex as it stands now: rhino rushing or walking just plain old sucks. Besides plastic dread claws would be cool.

Drop Pods were, in fact, not around "in spades" during the Crusades/Heresy. The Dreadclaw was being faded out of service at the time of the Horus Heresy in favor of the Drop Pod, but Stormbirds and Thunderhawks however were around in spades.
The lack of Drop Pods is easily attributable to the fact that the Chaos Legions may not have the technology to refurbish and reuse Drop Pods, unlike the Loyalists.

As for Night Lords...they're big on mobility, but they're also not big on using vehicles in place of a well-trained infiltration squad, a very well-timed teleport assault, Thunderhawk deployment, etc.

sure drop pods were around in spades. There's like a hundred of them in the first 3 books. This isnt really debateable... either youve read the books and you know your wrong or you havent and you dont... but let me assure you... you are in fact wrong on this point.

The lack of drop pods is more accurately attributed to GWs not having gotten around to making the model and rules yet. In Soul Hunter the night lords 10th company is described as running out of ammo for their bolters, not having enough servitors, etc., but apparently they still have enough drop pods to mount boarding actions and actually capture imperial ships. Even in the most recent fluff they're around.

So.... basically..... you're wrong.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:well.... as long as imperials have storm shields and traitors dont the loyalists are going to have a big advantage.

No, they really don't. Every Chaos Terminator comes with a Power Weapon/Twin-Linked Bolter as standard, with the option to take lightning claw, powerfist, or chainfist in lieu of the power weapon and a Combi-Weapon in lieu of the Bolter.
They really don't need Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers to make "Assault Terminator" squads, especially not with the ability to take Marks of Chaos.

well every loyalist comes with a storm bolter so chaos and codex are pretty even there.
of course we have more options. we pay for them and it fits our theme (chaos=individualism rather than regementation)
marks of chaos are a joke on chaos terminators. except the mark of tzeentch. precisely because it buffs their invulnerable save.
3++ invuln is crazy good. loyalists get it for free, so whats wrong with giving it to chaos terminators if we pay 5 points a piece like blood angels or even 10 points a piece?

Again: They do not get 3++ invulnerable "for free". They have to give up any kind of ranged capability to get it and the bonus for being armed with two close combat weapons, as Storm Shields/Thunder Hammers are only available as an upgrade to the Lightning Claw pairs available to Terminator Assault Squads. You don't get to field Terminator Squads with Assault Cannons and Storm Shields/Thunder Hammers with the standard codex.
That's called "a trade off".

kanluwen wrote:

abaddonfidelis wrote:
Its not exactly fluffy for them to have later model imperial stuff but they should either be roughly comparable in their abilities (read: 3++ invuln) or chaos terminators should go down in price. I'm ok with giving chaos some imperial stuff because they can scavenge a battlefield like anyone else, and legions do turn renegade and take their phat toys with them. it should just cost more to reflect the difficulty traitors have obtaining/maintaining that equipment.

First off: 3+ Invulnerability for Terminators is with a Storm Shield. Without it, Terminators have exactly the same statline on both sides(excepting Dark Angels, whose Storm Shields are 4+ Invulnerability).
Second:
Legions don't exist anymore. Legions were a Heresy/Crusade era organization, and have been dead long since.
Chapters are what you're trying to say, and it's incredibly rare for an entire Chapter at this point in the 40k timeline to go renegade. At most, you see individual or squads of Marines turning renegade now, and there's no way in hell they are bringing enough material to equip whole squads.
Oh, and in regards to scavenging equipment?
Any idiot can scavenge something. It's much harder to make it functional enough to operate.

1st off: yeah thats true. so what? where are you going with that?

That there's no reason, whatsoever, to make Chaos Terminators exactly the same as Codex: Space Marines. At the most, I could maybe see some kind of lesser quality Combat Shield available for them.

2nd: oh sorry chapters not legions. you're right. I bow before your superior nerd-knowledge.

If you're going to cite fluff for proposed changes, at least get it right.

3rd: ummm... chapters do in fact go renegade.... but even if its just a squad or a company.... just speaking for myself, I'd want to make sure I was well armed before going renegade. So whats some of the best equipment codex marines have? storm shields. But like I said just make it more expensive.

The last Chapter that went renegade, in their full capacity(from recent memory at least), was the Astral Claws/Red Corsairs.

To your point about scavenging.... yeah.... its really really tough to make it work... all you have to do is find the activation rune and press it. way too difficult for your average super soldier, whose entire life is spent fighting and training to fight, to figure out.

I'm willing to bet if I were to have you scavenge a Javelin AT system, you'd not be able to make it work. The more complex the technology, the harder it is to scavenge. The more fiddly bits involved, the harder it will be to keep it running.

Or.... here's a radical concept.... the renegades have the dark mechanicus make storm shields based on captured imperial models bc they're tired of getting pwned by them. and dont give me any crap about how the dark mechanicus cant figure it out. They built abaddon a planet killer for gods sake they aren't stupid.

The Dark Mechanicus is too busy building warmachines of vast destructive capability or just keeping the crap they already have in operable conditions to bother duplicating Imperial stuff.

Abaddonfidelis wrote:

kanluwen wrote:

abaddonfidelis wrote:Right now chaos has some serious mobility issues. This could be fixed by giving them drop pods and letting them take jump pack guys as troops. The 1st is pretty well attested in the HH novels: drop pods were around in spades during the crusade. The 2nd might be a specialist formation like for Night Lords, who it is pretty clear are every bit as big on mobility as scars or blood angels. However they do it the lack of mobility is one of the biggest hindrances to the chaos codex as it stands now: rhino rushing or walking just plain old sucks. Besides plastic dread claws would be cool.

Drop Pods were, in fact, not around "in spades" during the Crusades/Heresy. The Dreadclaw was being faded out of service at the time of the Horus Heresy in favor of the Drop Pod, but Stormbirds and Thunderhawks however were around in spades.
The lack of Drop Pods is easily attributable to the fact that the Chaos Legions may not have the technology to refurbish and reuse Drop Pods, unlike the Loyalists.

As for Night Lords...they're big on mobility, but they're also not big on using vehicles in place of a well-trained infiltration squad, a very well-timed teleport assault, Thunderhawk deployment, etc.

sure drop pods were around in spades. There's like a hundred of them in the first 3 books. This isn't really debatable... either you've read the books and you know you're wrong or you haven't and you don't... but let me assure you... you are in fact wrong on this point.

Sorry, but no.
That was Horus' personal Legion doing an assault. Of course the Warmaster's personal army is going to have the newest technology available to the Imperium. Even his Imperial Army regiments were better equipped than any other Expeditionary Fleet's.

As an aside, here's a nice flavor text bit for you from Imperial Armour: Volume Seven.

Imperial Armour: Volume Seven, Dreadclaw Assault Craft Entry wrote:Ultimately the Dreadclaws were dropped from service by the majority of the Imperial of the time, except for the traitor legions. The Dreadclaw's advanced machine spirit began to develop dangerous tendencies, on occasion causing the death of its passengers, though in the dark times of the heresy their use continued due to the desperateness of their commander; or their wanton lack of care for their troops. Despite the Adeptus Mechanicus revising the vehicle's machine spirit, a streak of accidents led to the majority of the Dreadclaws being jettisoned into space, and now only the Traitor Legions are known to use these dangerous, albeit advanced, vessels.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
The lack of drop pods is more accurately attributed to GWs not having gotten around to making the model and rules yet. In Soul Hunter the night lords 10th company is described as running out of ammo for their bolters, not having enough servitors, etc., but apparently they still have enough drop pods to mount boarding actions and actually capture imperial ships. Even in the most recent fluff they're around.

So.... basically..... you're wrong.
AF

Actually...I'm not.
Drop Pods can't be used to "mount boarding actions". They have no capability, whatsoever, of penetrating or achieving a seal with an opposing ship's hull.
The Dreadclaw Assault Craft, however, can. It's designed for Drop Pod Assaults or ship to ship boarding actions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:As for Night Lords...they're big on mobility, but they're also not big on using vehicles in place of a well-trained infiltration squad, a very well-timed teleport assault, Thunderhawk deployment, etc.

This is arguable as vehicles (like dread claws) can play a vital role in their infiltrations and assaults. They certainly have plenty of tanks, even including Vindicators. I know they're not Iron Warriors, of course.

True, but for the actual infiltration they seem to tend towards the Alpha Legion method of using Thunderhawks to land the troops and have them hoof it into place.
I mean, let's face it. Any kind of Drop Pod deployment is going to be noticeable as hell, unless you tow a bunch of meteors into orbit and start a meteor shower just to cover the actual deployment of these pods.

There's a huge difference, either way, between the way Night Lords and the Alpha Legion do their infiltrations and the way they do their full out assaults.

Dreadclaw following that Fluff would be amusing. Rhino price, doesn't scatter, but 1/6 of the time, the unit within is completely destroyed.

Then, once it's down, every turn, roll a d6 - on a 1, it shoots at the nearest CSM unit.

I'd be OK if the CSM had that as their Drop Pod variant.


Indeed, if only the Possessed and Dreadnought mechanics were carried out further through the Codex...

How about 1/6 of the the time it auto-mishaps?

Completely destroyed seems... harsh.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Dreadclaw following that Fluff would be amusing. Rhino price, doesn't scatter, but 1/6 of the time, the unit within is completely destroyed.

Then, once it's down, every turn, roll a d6 - on a 1, it shoots at the nearest CSM unit.

I'd be OK if the CSM had that as their Drop Pod variant.


Indeed, if only the Possessed and Dreadnought mechanics were carried out further through the Codex...

That's a bit much.

I'd rather that on a roll of a 6, the opposing player gets to control the pod upon its arrival or can opt for it to continue "flying" off the table, where the Dreadclaw controlling player has to roll for it again.

You know what'd be awesome?

An apology from GW for the current GW Codex.

No... that's not what I was going say. Let me start over.


You know what'd be awesome?

If the Chaos Codex got Daemonic Gifts back. They have been an intrinsic part of Chaos armies since *checks Realms of Chaos book* 1988. To have them removed in the current abomination was just demoralising, insulting and went a long way to blandifying Chaos. They need to come back.

Monster Rain wrote:How about 1/6 of the the time it auto-mishaps?

Completely destroyed seems... harsh.

I suppose, although that seems a bit tame.

And yet, isn't that what the Fluff says?
____

Kanluwen wrote:That's a bit much.

I'd rather that on a roll of a 6, the opposing player gets to control the pod upon its arrival or can opt for it to continue "flying" off the table, where the Dreadclaw controlling player has to roll for it again.

It trades unerring accuracy when it usually does work, against a Thropian disaster of the highest order. Pretty fair.

If it flies off the table, that should count as auto-destroyed, yes?


Either way, yes, Chaos should get a Dreadclaw Drop Pod equivalent, and yes it should have some kinda of advantage(s) (no scatter and/or automatic arrival when desired) trading off against some chance that everybody dies.

I could see Dreadclaws being able to get some kind of Daemonic Possession upgrade that allows them to be a smidge more accurate, but with that "everybody dies!" tradeoff

H.B.M.C. wrote:
If the Chaos Codex got Daemonic Gifts back. They have been an intrinsic part of Chaos armies since *checks Realms of Chaos book* 1988. To have them removed in the current abomination was just demoralising, insulting and went a long way to blandifying Chaos. They need to come back.

Aye, for me it doesn't even need to be as many as the previous book, if we just had about twenty options so you didn't see the same Lord at every battle, or gave the Lord something that made it worth taking over a DP, I'd be happy.

Do that and Turn Icons into marks as I noted earlier, and my CSM would be back on the table. Although I'll admit the main issue foe me is the Icons, I've felt like it was a way to force all vet CSM players to buy an extra model in many of their squads, and made no real sense. Marks would have been fine.

kanluwen.

if by free you just mean there's an opportunity cost then it that sense nothing is free. so its a truism. so its not relevant.
regimentation is part of imperial fluff. individuality is part of chaos fluff.
again, about making a storm shield work.... all you have to do.... is push the activation rune. I dont know what fiddly bits you're talking about. Its a shield.
your point about the dark mechanicus is silly so I'll just let it pass.
its not just horus' legion in the HH books that have tons of drop pods. its every legion they talk about. thats how they get to the planet surface most of the time. disagreeing is one thing but here you're just factually wrong. Drop Pods ARE used to mount boarding actions in Soul Hunter. Its official, its black library, you're wrong, just deal with it. Maybe they werent *codex* drop pods, maybe they were dread claws, it doesnt say and it doesnt matter. look:

(broad category) drop pods
(sub-category) dread claws, codex drop pods, mycetic spores

isnt that amazing?
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:kanluwen.

if by free you just mean there's an opportunity cost then it that sense nothing is free. so its a truism. so its not relevant.
regimentation is part of imperial fluff. individuality is part of chaos fluff.

And what's your point? "Being the same as Imperial forces" isn't part of the Chaos fluff, but being overtly aggressive in their war methods is. There's no need, whatsoever, for Chaos to have a purely defensive piece of wargear like a Storm Shield.

again, about making a storm shield work.... all you have to do.... is push the activation rune. I don't know what fiddly bits you're talking about. Its a shield.

A Storm Shield isn't just a slab of metal that blocks incoming fire. It uses a field generator, which would be a fiddly bit that has to be maintained and comprehended to actually reproduce in large numbers. Read the fluff sometime.

your point about the dark mechanicus is silly so I'll just let it pass.

Because you have nothing to counteract it. The Dark Mechanicus, as it stands, is devoted to crafting new weapons or coming up with new ways to make things that go boom or blending Daemons and biological constructs with mechanical horrors.

its not just horus' legion in the HH books that have tons of drop pods. its every legion they talk about. that's how they get to the planet surface most of the time. disagreeing is one thing but here you're just factually wrong.

And what's your bloody point? That they had Drop Pods during the Horus Heresy? Big friggin' deal, they'd run out of them without resupply from the Mechanicus or retrieval equipment as the Codex Chapters do.

Drop Pods ARE used to mount boarding actions in Soul Hunter. Its official, its black library, you're wrong, just deal with it. Maybe they weren't *codex* drop pods, maybe they were dread claws, it doesnt say and it doesnt matter.

Actually, it does. Because Dreadclaws are not Drop Pods. They are assault craft.

look:
(broad category) drop pods
(sub-category) dread claws, codex drop pods, mycetic spores

isnt that amazing?
AF

To counter:
(broad category)fruit
(sub-category)bananas, apples, pineapples.

Does that mean all fruit are bananas? No.

Dreadclaws can function as Drop Pods, but they are not the same thing. They were designed(and still even have the fluff about it in there) to be a self-recovering assault craft. It's why they can actually take off and "fly" after their initial deployment, unlike Drop Pods which need to be recovered by Thunderhawk Transporters or if unable to be retrieved they're spiked with det charges.

Whether a codex with choices that are all viable can be written would be a good debate. Whether such a codex currently exists . . . well, the answer is no. Some people say that the generic daemons, especially the lesser ones, are totally worthless. But when I look at daemons in C:CSM 4th ed. I can see uses for them in gimmicky lists (if you have the money and patience to model tons of them). Otherwise, they're not too viable. I would say this doesn't mean it's a bad book, however. I look forward to GW doing something in the next CSM book to more clearly deliniate the role of daemonic power in CSM forces but the current book handles it well enough considering the transition to a separate daemon book. (If anything, Spawn need more work than daemons.)

Similarly, the idea that CSM in M42 work in diverse warbands rather than single-cult forces or even Legions is a positive development. I admit it took me a while to understand and accept this. It allows CSM to be more than either an extension of daemons or yet another flavor of SM. I say again, the book is actually really good as-is.

The book is, imo, okay. It's more "Chaos Renegades" than anything else, with no real options to do similar to the Legions.

I wouldn't mind seeing CSM getting something similar to Sternguard/Vanguard/Company/Whatever Veterans in the form of actual Legion squads who fought in the Horus Heresy and its aftermaths.

Something like you can take X amount of "Death Guard Marines" with better than average Nurgle Marks and the like if you take Typhus, etc.

The only extant Legion is the Black Legion. And it is nothing like a Great Crusade Legion. So the book is totally legimate. Sounds like what you really want is a HH dex.

Kanluwen wrote:The book is, imo, okay. It's more "Chaos Renegades" than anything else, with no real options to do similar to the Legions.

I wouldn't mind seeing CSM getting something similar to Sternguard/Vanguard/Company/Whatever Veterans in the form of actual Legion squads who fought in the Horus Heresy and its aftermaths.

Don't Chosen fulfill that role?

Infiltrating squads with the option to take pretty much every weapon in the army?

Manchu wrote:The only extant Legion is the Black Legion. And it is nothing like a Great Crusade Legion. So the book is totally legimate. Sounds like what you really want is a HH dex.

Uh, no. Not sure where you got that ridiculous idea.

Just meant that, much like taking Marneus Calgar or Cato Sicarius, having a character from one of the Legions should give you options for something unique. Typhus bringing a bodyguard of Death Guard Terminators and being able to summon up a horde of Plague Zombies, for an example.

Black Legion is one of those bits where you really can't do anything too specific with them before you break the "spirit" of what they should be, if that makes any sense.

I also would love to see a change to the way Marks can be chosen in an army. Like a Tzeentchian Sorcerer Lord leading an army shouldn't be able to take units with the Mark of Nurgle, a Khorne Berzerker shouldn't be able to take Slaaneshi troops, etc etc. Maybe have Black Legion armies/warbands being the only ones who can ignore this rule?

Bring back some of the flavor, even if some kind of buff needs to be made to the Marks of Chaos to compensate.


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Monster Rain wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The book is, imo, okay. It's more "Chaos Renegades" than anything else, with no real options to do similar to the Legions.

I wouldn't mind seeing CSM getting something similar to Sternguard/Vanguard/Company/Whatever Veterans in the form of actual Legion squads who fought in the Horus Heresy and its aftermaths.

Don't Chosen fulfill that role?

Infiltrating squads with the option to take pretty much every weapon in the army?

Pretty much, but think...SuperChosen. Veritable demi-gods who've been fighting since the Horus Heresy, and have them only being available to mono-god armies.

@Kan: actually, the option was given from the get-go. That's why CSM have Cult Marines as Troops.

Kanluwen wrote:

Manchu wrote:The only extant Legion is the Black Legion. And it is nothing like a Great Crusade Legion. So the book is totally legimate. Sounds like what you really want is a HH dex.

Uh, no. Not sure where you got that ridiculous idea.

From your ridiculous posts. To wit:

Kanluwen wrote:The book is, imo, okay. It's more "Chaos Renegades" than anything else, with no real options to do similar to the Legions.

The existing codex allows you to make a Typhus-led Nurgle army just like the one A D-B describes in Cadian Blood. I get that you think taking Typhus should shape the rest of your force. That's doesn't seem to have much to do with making the faction play more like a Legion. After all, a Legion-based army is either going to be un-fluffy or miss out on a lot of what's good in a book. That Nurgle army, for example, will be nothing but footslogging Plague Marines with bolters with a pack of Termies and maybe some daemons. Pretty boring. Now, having a Nurgle-worshipping component of a larger, more diverse warband? Ah--fluffy AND it can work in games.

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Manchu wrote:The only extant Legion is the Black Legion. And it is nothing like a Great Crusade Legion. So the book is totally legimate. Sounds like what you really want is a HH dex.

Uh, no. Not sure where you got that ridiculous idea.

From your ridiculous posts. To wit:

Kanluwen wrote:The book is, imo, okay. It's more "Chaos Renegades" than anything else, with no real options to do similar to the Legions.

The existing codex allows you to make a Typhus-led Nurgle army just like the one A D-B describes in Cadian Blood. I get that you think taking Typhus should shape the rest of your force. That's doesn't seem to have much to do with making the faction play more like a Legion. After all, a Legion-based army is either going to be un-fluffy or miss out on a lot of what's good in a book. That Nurgle army, for example, will be nothing but footslogging Plague Marines with bolters with a pack of Termies and maybe some daemons. Pretty boring. Now, having a Nurgle-worshipping component of a larger, more diverse warband? Ah--fluffy AND it can work in games.

That same Nurgle army will be consisting of Marines that should be on par in every way with Grey Knights, not your basic Marines.

That is what the difference between Legions and Renegade/Cults should be. They're going to be the elite of the elite, with thousands of years of experience under their belts, equipment that was pure artistry at the original time of its construction and is a perfect example of the saying "They don't make it like they used to" being true.

Typhus, Lucius, Abaddon, Ahriman, and Kharn...they're not forces you should see running around willynilly in renegade/cult armies. They're people who've kept with their Legion, even after its fall from glory.
The Legions should have access to more archaic wargear, more powerful Psyker/Chosen veteran skills, etc.

It might be that the ravages of the Warp have taken their toll. Ancient Death Guard, despite their experience and Nurgle-given strengths, may also have disadvantages compared to 100-year-old loyalist Marines. I get what you're saying, though: how about a CSM like Talos--no mutations, no sorcerey, just the same guy with 10,000 (not accounting for Warp distortions) years of combat experience. I think this type of soldier would be handled as a special character. (It pays to keep in mind the difference between a 40k Marine and a BL Marine, too.) A unit of them would push what's already undesirable with Chosen (expensive, narrow use) even further in the wrong direction.