CSM Codex Wishlisting

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**JohnHwangDD**

Kanluwen wrote:That same Nurgle army will be consisting of Marines that should be on par in every way with Grey Knights, not your basic Marines.

So you want CSMs to be so expensive and narrowly-focused as to be completely unplayable as a themed force? Is that what you're asking for?

**Samus_aran115**

candy.man wrote:
Wraithlordmechanic wrote:
Samus_aran115 wrote:Everytime I look at the CSM dex', I get more and more disappoint with it.

1. Bring back Chaos Armor Not every marine army gets artificer army get over it.
2. Chaos Storm Shields No. chaos never had them and probably (hopefully) never will.
3. Mastercrafted Weapons... No codex written in 5th ed. has had them as an option why should they?
4. Bring back lesser daemons Agreed. Codex daemons was a dumb idea fluff wise.
5. Bring back greater daemons Also agreed.
5. Bring the doomrider back meh
6. FOC allowances sort of like loyalist codex** Play loyalists..
7. Juggernaut riders units. Play daemons (or space wolves).
8. Land Raider variants (Something different from LRC or LRR) Nope. you get defilers and you already stole the SM vindicator.
9. Bring back storm bolters Nope. they weren't put into widespread use before the heresy Abby's the only chaos dude that has one.
10. Drop pods/ dreadclaws No. balance issue.
11. Keep kharne exactly the same.

I am all for differentiating Chaos by not giving 5th edition chaos every imperial toy when relevant. Anyone savvy with the book is well aware that it is lacking some core options that loyalist players might take for granted. The majority of things players list in this thread will not be too bad. Most chaos players collect and love chaos because of all the things that make up chaos and are well aware if they want to use loyalist rules, they can use a loyalist book. Some of the criticisms stated like the ones above are pretty weak so I’ll address some quick misconceptions.

• Chaos armour. Chaos had this in their last 2 codices and there weren’t any problems then. Generic loyalist HQs can purchase runic armour/artificer armour and sanguinary guard/honour guard come with 2+ armour as standard. Not seeing any balance issue here considering chaos armour would most likely be restricted to HQs, SCs and retinues. Units containing 2+ armour aren’t really a balance issues considering any unit containing them usually has a bloated point cost.

• Storm shields. 3++ saves for 5th edition armies is pretty much standard wouldn’t make much sense for close quarters leaning army like chaos to not have access to some form of 3++ capable unit. No balance issues here and no counter arguments other than “my toys, I’m not sharing”.

• Dread Claws/Drop pods. Chaos currently has mobility issues with only 2 forms of transport, 10 man rhinos and 10 man landraiders. Imperials currently have rhinos, razorbacks, drop pods, 10-12 man land raiders, 14-16 man land raider variants (6 total). Giving chaos another form of transport other than 2 10 man tanks is not going to *unbalance* anything. Dread claws operate differently to drop pods anyway.

• LR Variant/unique chaos LR variant/terminator transport option higher than 10 men. Again to alleviate transport issues and additional issues in regards to terminator transport. Currently, because chaos does not have a terminator transport option higher then 10 men and as a result chaos players are unable to viably take a terminator unit higher than 5 men.

• Juggernaught riders/Daemonic cavalry/fast attack daemons. Chaos currently has 2 fast attack options, bikers and raptors, that is all. Chaos has had a long and fluffy history with daemonic cavalry units and the last 2 books had cavalry type units. I fail to see any balance issue here. It is impossible to say such a unit would be unbalanced, without seeing its profile and what synergy it is capable of.

• FOC options. Could work if the 5th edition codex is designed differently. Currently there are no FOC modifiers in the chaos book because all the cult units are already troop choices (where as they used to be elite choices, unlocked as a troop choice when the army is lead by a relevant HQ). Ideally a 5th edition chaos book would restore the elites->troops system or use a similar system (such as cult troops listed as 0-1 unless army contains relevant HQ). This pretty much leaves a lot of room as far as additional options and balance is concerned

All in call, cries of cheese should be limited to the actual 5th edition book and not hypothetical internet lists.

Good post. I love it when people understand other's point of view. Thanks. I give you 6.2 internets to spend how you like

**Kanluwen**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:That same Nurgle army will be consisting of Marines that should be on par in every way with Grey Knights, not your basic Marines.

So you want CSMs to be so expensive and narrowly-focused as to be completely unplayable as a themed force? Is that what you're asking for?

No, I want them to represent Legion forces better than they currently do.

Right now, Chaos Space Marines are for all intents and purposes "Spiky Marines". Something to really differentiate them from their Loyalist brothers besides "Oh hai, we have Marks of Chaos!" would be nice.

**Monster Rain**

Kanluwen wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:That same Nurgle army will be consisting of Marines that should be on par in every way with Grey Knights, not your basic Marines.

So you want CSMs to be so expensive and narrowly-focused as to be completely unplayable as a themed force? Is that what you're asking for?

No, I want them to represent Legion forces better than they currently do.

Right now, Chaos Space Marines are for all intents and purposes "Spiky Marines". Something to really differentiate them from their Loyalist brothers besides "Oh hai, we have Marks of Chaos!" would be nice.

Like Autocannons in the squads? And Defilers and Daemon Princes? Two special Weapons per squad? Cheaper Terminators? T5, FNP, fearless troops?

That really would set them apart from the Loyalists. I think they should get all that stuff.

**Samus_aran115**

Kanluwen wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:That same Nurgle army will be consisting of Marines that should be on par in every way with Grey Knights, not your basic Marines.

So you want CSMs to be so expensive and narrowly-focused as to be completely unplayable as a themed force? Is that what you're asking for?

No, I want them to represent Legion forces better than they currently do.

Right now, Chaos Space Marines are for all intents and purposes "Spiky Marines". Something to really differentiate them from their Loyalist brothers besides "Oh hai, we have Marks of Chaos!" would be nice.

Sounds interesting, but what would really make them different?

I raise my hand for anything different

**Wraithlordmechanic**

candy.man wrote:
I am all for differentiating Chaos by not giving 5th edition chaos every imperial toy when relevant. Anyone savvy with the book is well aware that it is lacking some core options that loyalist players might take for granted. The majority of things players list in this thread will not be too bad. Most chaos players collect and love chaos because of all the things that make up chaos and are well aware if they want to use loyalist rules, they can use a loyalist book. Some of the criticisms stated like the ones above are pretty weak so I’ll address some quick misconceptions.

• Chaos armour. Chaos had this in their last 2 codices and there weren’t any problems then. Generic loyalist HQs can purchase runic armour/artificer armour and sanguinary guard/honour guard come with 2+ armour as standard. Not seeing any balance issue here considering chaos armour would most likely be restricted to HQs, SCs and retinues. Units containing 2+ armour aren’t really a balance issues considering any unit containing them usually has a bloated point cost. My point was that not all armies have it available as an upgrade. Ba currently don't and I don't believe DA do either despite the fat that historically they did.

• Storm shields. 3++ saves for 5th edition armies is pretty much standard wouldn’t make much sense for close quarters leaning army like chaos to not have access to some form of 3++ capable unit. No balance issues here and no counter arguments other than “my toys, I’m not sharing”. 3++ is hardly "standard". name 5 armies that can have units with a 3++. SM terminators get storm shields. SM terminators can not get +1A, +1T +1I or combi-weapons. ever heard of a loyalist termicide unit? Of course not. CSM terminators are different (and hopefully always will be).

• Dread Claws/Drop pods. Chaos currently has mobility issues with only 2 forms of transport, 10 man rhinos and 10 man landraiders. Imperials currently have rhinos, razorbacks, drop pods, 10-12 man land raiders, 14-16 man land raider variants (6 total). Giving chaos another form of transport other than 2 10 man tanks is not going to *unbalance* anything. Dread claws operate differently to drop pods anyway. This is called a trade off. Chaos gets arguably the best troops choices in the game (and definately the best variety),some of the most powerful psychic powers, cheap termies, oblits, etc. but don't have a lot of transport vehicles. In fact I think raining plague marine might be slightly unbalancing though admittedly that's just opinion.

• LR Variant/unique chaos LR variant/terminator transport option higher than 10 men. Again to alleviate transport issues and additional issues in regards to terminator transport. Currently, because chaos does not have a terminator transport option higher then 10 men and as a result chaos players are unable to viably take a terminator unit higher than 5 men. See above.

• Juggernaught riders/Daemonic cavalry/fast attack daemons. Chaos currently has 2 fast attack options, bikers and raptors, that is all. Chaos has had a long and fluffy history with daemonic cavalry units and the last 2 books had cavalry type units. I fail to see any balance issue here. It is impossible to say such a unit would be unbalanced, without seeing its profile and what synergy it is capable of. Actually I'll change my vote here although I would prefer they were daemons doing the riding since I'm not a fan of the idea of SM riding anything. I do have to admit that chaos could use some more FA choices.

• FOC options. Could work if the 5th edition codex is designed differently. Currently there are no FOC modifiers in the chaos book because all the cult units are already troop choices (where as they used to be elite choices, unlocked as a troop choice when the army is lead by a relevant HQ). Ideally a 5th edition chaos book would restore the elites->troops system or use a similar system (such as cult troops listed as 0-1 unless army contains relevant HQ). This pretty much leaves a lot of room as far as additional options and balance is concerned. I agree wholeheartedly. I thought it was pretty lame when they got rid of animosity between the gods and made generic HQ choices boring. I have to admit I was biased against the 3.5 CSM codex but some gifts/wargear should probably be brought back. Simply making daemon weapons give random extra attacks is kind of lame.

All in call, cries of cheese should be limited to the actual 5th edition book and not hypothetical internet lists. Fair enough but the idea of mixing storm shields with icons smells a bit like cheese especially when it's not supported by the fluff.

**Kanluwen**

Samus_aran115 wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:That same Nurgle army will be consisting of Marines that should be on par in every way with Grey Knights, not your basic Marines.

So you want CSMs to be so expensive and narrowly-focused as to be completely unplayable as a themed force? Is that what you're asking for?

No, I want them to represent Legion forces better than they currently do.

Right now, Chaos Space Marines are for all intents and purposes "Spiky Marines". Something to really differentiate them from their Loyalist brothers besides "Oh hai, we have Marks of Chaos!" would be nice.

Sounds interesting, but what would really make them different?

I raise my hand for anything different

Honestly...
I can see Legion armies(tied in with "classic" characters) being able to take Chosen/Terminators as Troops rather than Elites as a good start. That's all I've really got off the top of my head, personally. Maybe some kind of "signature" unit for each Legion or their Gods?

Right now: Codex: Chaos Space Marines feels, to me, too much like "Codex: Renegade Space Marines with Special Guest Appearances by Chaos!".

**JohnHwangDD**

Kanluwen wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:That same Nurgle army will be consisting of Marines that should be on par in every way with Grey Knights, not your basic Marines.

So you want CSMs to be so expensive and narrowly-focused as to be completely unplayable as a themed force? Is that what you're asking for?

No, I want them to represent Legion forces better than they currently do.

Right now, Chaos Space Marines are for all intents and purposes "Spiky Marines".

Something to really differentiate them from their Loyalist brothers besides "Oh hai, we have Marks of Chaos!" would be nice.

You can make fully-Marked and themed forces to represent Legions just fine with the current Codex. A lack of imagination on your part is not failure on GW's part.

If a CSM was nothing more than an A2 SM, I might be somewhat sympathetic.

Because Cult Plague Marines (as Troops) are nothing more than CSMs with MoN? They're not significantly better and different than Marked vanilla CSMs? Are you sure you've got the current Codex?

**Samus_aran115**

There should be a couple different types of chaos lords...Hear me out.

You take a 'word bearers chaos lord' as an HQ choice. It's basically a chaos lord, but has some special rules. It can only take a limited number of upgrades that fit the said legion. All basic CSM units gain that special rule or something.

Or maybe theming builds around legions is a bad idea

**JohnHwangDD**

@Samus: I'd expect more Special Characters, each with a little rule, along with the Dreadclaw as a given. But the fundamental design of the CSM book is basically good. Probably minor tweak to Possessed, Raptors and Termies, and then we'll be good.

**Samus_aran115**

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Samus: I'd expect more Special Characters, each with a little rule, along with the Dreadclaw as a given. But the fundamental design of the CSM book is basically good. Probably minor tweak to Possessed, Raptors and Termies, and then we'll be good.

Actually. You just named all of the problems right there

Possessed should be better at what they do, for sure. They shouldn't have any bad rolls on the D6 roll IMO
Raptors- Gawd. I'm paying 5 points more for these guys? Wat
Terminators...eh...Do something with them.

**JohnHwangDD**

Thing is, aside from Possessed, they're not so dire as to affect the book or core designs.

Possessed could be a bit cheaper and use a d3: Rending, PWs, or Poisoned (3+), plus let players buy Wings.

Raptors are only a few points different from AMs, nothing obviously wrong with that couldn't be solved by giving them H&R for "free".

Termies are basically fine as-is - they're cheap enough as base, mixable, and can get a lot of Combi-guns. Again, tack on a "free" USR, and they'll be fine.

**Leo_the_Rat**

I'd like to see "cult termies" make a return. I miss my noise marine termies.

**DarkHound**

Samus_aran115 wrote:Possessed should be better at what they do, for sure. They shouldn't have any bad rolls on the D6 roll IMO

I use them in nearly every game, and I'd contend that they don't. Still, some mutability like the C'thulu Stealers or selecting the powers prior to the game would be nice. The only thing I don't want is to pay for and be stuck with the powers in the list building stage.

**Kanluwen**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:That same Nurgle army will be consisting of Marines that should be on par in every way with Grey Knights, not your basic Marines.

So you want CSMs to be so expensive and narrowly-focused as to be completely unplayable as a themed force? Is that what you're asking for?

No, I want them to represent Legion forces better than they currently do.

Right now, Chaos Space Marines are for all intents and purposes "Spiky Marines".

Something to really differentiate them from their Loyalist brothers besides "Oh hai, we have Marks of Chaos!" would be nice.

You can make fully-Marked and themed forces to represent Legions just fine with the current Codex. A lack of imagination on your part is not failure on GW's part.

If a CSM was nothing more than an A2 SM, I might be somewhat sympathetic.

Because Cult Plague Marines (as Troops) are nothing more than CSMs with MoN? They're not significantly better and different than Marked vanilla CSMs? Are you sure you've got the current Codex?

Legion != Cult.
Cult forces are those who've been turned since the Heresy. They can be any number of backgrounds, Chapters, etc brought together under the banner of a god.

It's not so much a "lack of imagination", it's just I guess I've had too much time to think about how Legion troops should differ.

**JohnHwangDD**

Big 4 Legion is based on Marked and Cult.

"Legion" = 9 total possible choices

"Cult" = Dedicated to one Chaos Power, More than basic Marked

"Renegade" = turned post-Heresy

**Alpharius**

Kanluwen wrote:
Right now: Codex: Chaos Space Marines feels, to me, too much like "Codex: Renegade Space Marines with Special Guest Appearances by Chaos!".

That's pretty much my problem with it too, in a nutshell!

**Legion**

JohnHwangDD wrote:Thing is, aside from Possessed, they're not so dire as to affect the book or core designs.

Possessed could be a bit cheaper and use a d3: Rending, PWs, or Poisoned (3+), plus let players buy Wings.

Raptors are only a few points different from AMs, nothing obviously wrong with that couldn't be solved by giving them H&R for "free".

Termies are basically fine as-is - they're cheap enough as base, mixable, and can get a lot of Combi-guns. Again, tack on a "free" USR, and they'll be fine.

I don't particularly agree that possessed are dire, but I think this post is as close to the mark as this thread's come so far.

What chaos need is not a slew of new and complex options, but a few minor tweaks to bring the character back without affecting balance.

If i'm wishlisting though, here's what i'd ask for:

- Better marks. Nothing too complex; just a bit of differentiation. For example a MoK would give a basic CSM an extra attack, while the same mark (probably for extra cost) would give a chaos lord or DP an extra attack and furious charge. Vehicle customisation could easily be handled using the same framework without having to come up with multiple new versions of vehicles.

- New special characters that can lend "legion flavour" to an army list via some special rule or FOC modification.

- Either rework lesser/greater daemons so they're not so bland, or ditch them completely.

That's about it.

Legion.

**H.B.M.C.**

Possessed should just be able to buy the abilities they want rather than being random. Random units that you cannot control suck. Give choice back to the player.

**AbaddonFidelis**

Kanluwen wrote:

again, about making a storm shield work.... all you have to do.... is push the activation rune. I don't know what fiddly bits you're talking about. Its a shield.

A Storm Shield isn't just a slab of metal that blocks incoming fire. It uses a field generator, which would be a fiddly bit that has to be maintained and comprehended to actually reproduce in large numbers. Read the fluff sometime.

yes..... it has a field generator.... which is activated by..... a button. pretty simple.
chaos marines would maintain that piece of equipment the same way they'd maintain any other - get the mechanicus, servitors, or slaves to do it for them.
you seem to be having some real difficulty with this concept.....
AF

**Manchu**

They do have access to Dark Mechanicum adepts. Maybe those guys should be included in any upcoming dex.

**Kanluwen**

Dark Mechanicum adepts aren't combat capable units, not like Enginseers or Techmarines. Most of the Dark Mechanicum converts are people who were going to be taken down by the AM for screwing with STCs and other technological research attempts.

**Slarg232**

What I would want to see is:

The books of Chaos back.
Scrap Daemons, they have their own codex now.
Give us Daemonic Engines, like the Defiler. Preferably a fast skimmer like the Blight Fly thingamajig they have for Appocolypse.
Various Marks of Chaos give different benefits to each unit (So as to be able to feild entire armies of the themed legions.) Maybe give MoN Slow and Purposeful + FNP (Purely as example)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Make it where a force lead by a certain God's champion can only have certain units, only forbidding the opposite god (Nurgle Lord can't take Tzeentch troops), and putting a 0-2 of the other Gods on it.
Forbidding certain units from taking certain marks (no Nurgle Raptors, for instance)
Give us good Daemon Weapons, or at least something a little bit more flavorfu/variedl (I miss my Kai Gun

)
Marks of the Gods on Vehicles (Khorne gets a Steamrolla equivalent, Nurgle gets the old Parasitic Possession, but becomes a Lumbering Behemoth)

**Brotherjulian**

I HATE the current codex taking away the Legion specific rules. It used to be a variable army you could configure in many different ways and now you have to play the same every game.
2nd ed allowed Huron Blackheart's Red Corsairs to take modern marine weaponry and any Chaos force could buy Imperial weapons and vehicles IF you were willing to pay extra points for the rarity (like +50% if i recall correctly)

**timetowaste85**

Honestly, I love the current CSM codex-I can get a unit of 10 terminators, mark them slaanesh to make them hit at initiative 5, give half of them combi-melta's (goodbye vehicles), the other half twin lightning claws and sit back and watch the bloodbath. I had said unit (with a khorne lord with daemon weapon) stand up to 2 squads of terminators, beliel (I think, or w/e character makes DA termies troops), a squad of bikes and beat the feth out of all of them without even being hit back. And my opponent had charged me. I5 termies w/ re-rolls to wound and a psycho-nutcase lord with a BFA (big fething axe)? Yes please. The current book is fun. Throw in a daemon prince and a couple vindicators in there and your opponent will truly hate you. If vanilla marines could actually take mixed weapons (ranged and CC) they'd be better-but as of now I only take CC weapons. This is something that chaos (and DA and SW) have that C:SM don't have that is huge. Thanks, I appreciate the difference, and the marks can be a huge change. PS, I've seen the last codex-I wasn't impressed. I borrowed my FLGS's copy to see what the big deal about it was and how it was better than the new one, and with the exception of being sad that I missed a few broken weapon combos from the last one, I MUCH prefer the newest one. It is an improvement-just different from the last

Did I also mention the chaos termies are CHEAPER than C: SM?

**H.B.M.C.**

timetowaste85 wrote:Honestly, I love the current CSM codex-I can get a unit of 10 terminators, mark them slaanesh to make them hit at initiative 5, give half of them combi-melta's (goodbye vehicles), the other half twin lightning claws and sit back and watch the bloodbath.

You could do that in the previous Chaos Codex. The difference here is that in the current one, if the Icon Bearer dies, your squad forgets what Chaos God they worship.

**Manchu**

H.B.M.C. wrote:. . . if the Icon Bearer dies, your squad forgets what Chaos God they worship.

That is rather dumb. If Daemons are going to have their own book then the manifestation of Chaos in the CSM book ought to be better defined. Ironing out the marks would help.

**H.B.M.C.**

Icons were a marketing tool made, in part, to justify the expense of re-cutting the CSM sprue. As much as the Mark system from the 3.5 Codex made more sense (a long with a lot of other things), I doubt we'll be seeing the back of Icons any time soon, especially because "Marks = Intangible" and "Icons = Model to sell".

**Manchu**

I guess the basic CSM squad could be made more expensive by adding nine more marked pauldrons?

IMO, icons are a little too WHFB. I'd be okay with faction-specific ones. What I wouldn't give for one of those old Night Lords icons . . .

**H.B.M.C.**

Manchu wrote:I guess the basic CSM squad could be made more expensive by adding nine more marked pauldrons?

True, but it's cheaper to make a metal sprue than re-cut a plastic sprue for the third time in three releases. There's a reason the Tyranid Warriors from 3rd Ed are the same ones we have today.

Manchu wrote:IMO, icons are a little too WHFB. I'd be okay with faction-specific ones. What I wouldn't give for one of those old Night Lords icons . . .

Icons are a little bit Fantasy, yes, but to be honest I think that CSM models with Icons look cool. I've got 4 in my Deathguard and 2 in my World Eater army, and in our rules we use them like Teleport Homers, but for Daemons, plus we have a lot of special Icons - Grand Icons of Chaos as we call them - with various special rules to spice things up. Some are stolen wholesale from Fantasy (Icon of Endless Slaughter being a good example), but others are just there for fun.

I mean hey, the model exists, why not get some use out of it?