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However, if a unit of GK was joined by a non-GK IC . . . would the unit still get shrouding?

Oshova

Oshova wrote:However, if a unit of GK was joined by a non-GK IC . . . would the unit still get shrouding?

Oshova

Nope, because there you're picking out the unit of GK over the non-GK IC. Still illegal.

Oshova wrote:However, if a unit of GK was joined by a non-GK IC . . . would the unit still get shrouding?

Oshova

Nope, because it is no longer a GK unit.

But you're aiming at the unit (not picking out the IC) and the unit has Shrouding. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just trying to find out the truth

Oshova

Oshova wrote:But you're aiming at the unit (not picking out the IC) and the unit has Shrouding. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just trying to find out the truth

Oshova

No, the models have Shrouding.

Shrouding says "when you shoot at a GREY KNIGHTS UNIT". It's no longer a Grey Knights unit. You still have Shrouding, it just doesn't do anything.

Because it's not a GK unit, it's a hybrid unit?

That's cool, so long as I know =]

Oshova

I think the rules are pretty clear and in agreement with Gwar and others. It says a Grey Knight unit. It does not say a unit which contains grey knights. There is a big difference.

Gwar! wrote:

It is BOTH a Unit of Grey Knights AND a Unit of Storm Troopers. Therefore if targeting the COMBINED unit, you would have to test for Shrouding based on the Grey Knight unit's special rules.

So it's not a "Grey Knights unit" then is it, it's a "Unit of Grey Knights AND a Unit of Storm Troopers".

Therefore, it is a Unit of Grey Knights being targeted by an enemy unit, so the shrouding works. Still no evidence of contrary.

SaintHazard wrote:Except that you can't pick out ICs in shooting. Even your own. That's where your argument falls flat.

Yes, that is "a unit of Grey Knight (SINGULAR)" attached to "a unit of Inquisitorial Stormtroopers."

However, what you're suggesting requires you to pick out the "unit of Grey Knight" individually, which basic IC rules explicitly forbid.

What I am suggesting has nothing to do with "picking out" the IC at all, in fact quite contrary. I am saying that, because the GKGM is part of the unit, and the "Combined unit contains a unit of Grey Knights" you cannot pick out the "unit of assault marines" and ignore the "Shrouding" ability. You must shoot at the entire unit, which hosts a "Unit of Grey Knights" and therefore benefits from "The Shrouding".

SaintHazard wrote:
Even so, even if we go by your definitions, a "unit of Grey Knight" is not a "unit of Grey Knights."

I propose there must be multiple Grey Knights in the unit for it to be "a unit of Grey Knights." And there's the second part of your argument that falls flat.

It's not a bad argument, it just has a few gaping holes. Namely those above.

There is ONE unit, ONE and ONE only. See the rules for ICs joining units - they are not a seperat unit at all.

The rules for shooting REQUIRE that you target A SINGLE UNIT. When I target the GK+Non+GK unit, singular, I am targetting the combined unit - not any componnents of such.

As such no shrouding applies.

The words "entire" or "entirely" do not need to be in there, as the rule requires a UNIT OF GK -> If you have a unit of [GK+nonGK] you do not have a unit of GK. Its really that simple.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The words "entire" or "entirely" do not need to be in there

Again?!?!?!

Yep: Apparently people just cant help adding requirements, or demanding they be there, when no such requirement is there in order for the rule to function as stated.

You are asked that you are a unit of GK; a unit of [GK+others] is most demonstrably NOT a unit of GK (and if you disagree you don't understand what "join" means, nor have you read ALL of the ICs rules where, after combat, it states he rejoins the unit as a normal member] and as such shrouding does not apply.

The special rule isnt lost, you just canot fulfill the requirement while you are in a combined unit with non-GK models. ANd thats RAW.

I never said it lost the rule, it has the rule, the rule just does nothing.

It is like having ATSKNF and Fearless...

Your entire argument is predicated upon a specific definition you created for combined units with an implied set of properties. It is a Frankenstein's monster constructed through the selective inclusion of other Codices (i.e. Blood Angels) and BRB entries that have no relevance unless examined within the context of your self created rules distinction of a 'combined' unit.

You cannot prove, using valid DH codex and BRB entries that a unit including a single GK is a unit of GK themselves.

Further, this construct of a combined unit is based on the fallacy that a set C, containing elements of A and B, can be interchangeably labeled as both A and B.

When I bake a cake I have a combined ingredients of eggs, flour and sugar but my wife would kill me if I fed my children cake for breakfast and claimed it was eggs.

The fallacy of your argument is irrelevant, however, since the entire construct is an invention of your own personal ruleset.

nosferatu1001 wrote:There is ONE unit, ONE and ONE only. See the rules for ICs joining units - they are not a seperat unit at all.

The rules for shooting REQUIRE that you target A SINGLE UNIT. When I target the GK+Non+GK unit, singular, I am targetting the combined unit - not any componnents of such.

As such no shrouding applies.

The words "entire" or "entirely" do not need to be in there, as the rule requires a UNIT OF GK -> If you have a unit of [GK+nonGK] you do not have a unit of GK. Its really that simple.

Your missing the point.

"The rules for shooting require that you target a SINGLE unit."

A "Combined" unit is a single unit, but it is also (in terms of unit type) multiple units. For example, a Chaos lord in terminator armor accompanied by a bunch of raptors (not saying you SHOULD do this, but you can) is One unit, but it is also a GROUP of both unit types of Infantry and Jump Infantry. Two Units becoming 1. Same way with when you take a unit of Space wolves and accompany them with a Cannoness, they are 1 Combined unit, but they are also a Unit of Witch Hunters and a unit of Space wolves.

When you declare fire on the Combined unit you must take into consideration all of the special rules of the "Multi-Unit" (I.E. The Shrouding) so, if the special rules of the Grey Knight Unit prevents the Combined unit from being seen, then the combined unit may not be fired on.

Much like if Typhus is joined by a retinue of termis, and is assaulted, even though he is in a combined uni (a unit with Blight grenades, and one that does not contain them) the enemies do NOT gain their bonus attacks for charging.

Much like if you have an Archon joined to a squad of mandrakes, and if he is assaulted, the Mandrakes shadowskinned special rule require the assaulting unit to take a difficult terrain test, if they fail to reach the unit of Mandrakes, they fail to reach the Combined unit of the Archon and the Mandrakes.

I really don't see how this is so confusing...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

calypso2ts wrote:

You cannot prove, using valid DH codex and BRB entries that a unit including a single GK is a unit of GK themselves.

Oops

And actually, for good measure

calypso2ts wrote:
When I bake a cake I have a combined ingredients of eggs, flour and sugar but my wife would kill me if I fed my children cake for breakfast and claimed it was eggs.

When you are allergic to eggs(The shrouding rule for GKs-From the GKGM), and you make a cake with eggs, flour and sugar (including the GKGM, a WGBL, and a unit of WolfGuard) are you no longer allergic to the meal? According to you, it is no longer eggs, but is now Cake, so the allergy should not bother you...

You'll note that it doesn't say GK + anything else. That list is an exhaustive list, so unless you have some rule that allows you to say that a GK hero + some other non-GK unit still is just a GK hero then you have just proven yourself wrong.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:You'll note that it doesn't say GK + anything else. That list is an exhaustive list, so unless you have some rule that allows you to say that a GK hero + some other non-GK unit still is just a GK hero then you have just proven yourself wrong.

Then why does the Tau codex SPECIFICALLY state the ENTIRE unit must be wearing stealth-suits to gain the range rule.

Why does the Witch Hunter codex specifically state that Acts of Faith (etc) are LOST when joining a non-sisters unit.

There are more examples of "Unit-wide"(as opposed to individual character specific) special rules that require wording to PROHIBIT their ability being shared then those that are to be ASSUMED prohibited (which is what is being done with the whole GreyKnight special rules set).

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:There is ONE unit, ONE and ONE only. See the rules for ICs joining units - they are not a seperat unit at all.
...

I really don't see how this is so confusing...

It's not that confusing. Your argument is completely lucid and viable.

The rule for The Shrouding probably *should* read "each time an enemy unit fires at units with Grey Knights..." to reduce confusion. But it seems pretty ridiculous to argue if a GKGM can't be seen or targeted by enemy units or psychic powers due to his remarkable abilities, then all of a sudden, if he's close to some guardsmen, he suddenly becomes visible and his remarkable abilities just vanish.

It's more likely that the stormtroopers are able to 'hide behind' him because of his godlike powers, including the psychic protection of the Aegis.

hemingway wrote:There is ONE unit, ONE and ONE only. See the rules for ICs joining units - they are not a seperat unit at all.

I agree with this! ENTIRELY!

Here is the part where the divide seems to lay.

I say:

"When an Unit joins a Unit (ICs are Units, as per the IC rules), you get a One "Combined Unit" but in that combined unit, the individual units (Or "Meta-Unit" for lack of better term) still retains its special rules UNLESS SPECIFIED OTHERWISE"

And because of that statement:

As the Grey Knight special rule does NOT state that it is lost when a unit of grey knights joins another unit, the Meta-Unit of Grey Knights (which still exists within the "Combine Unit") is still subject to its special rules (Such as Aegis, Shrouding and Rites of Exorcism to name a few) so as a member of the Combined unit cannot be seen, and you CANNOT specifically target the part of the unit you CAN see (as they are not subject to shrouding) then you are UNABLE to fire upon the unt!

The Other side says:

"When an IC joins a Unit (An IC is not a unit, even thought the rules for ICs specify that it IS a unit in its own right...) it become a Hybrid unit that is no longer any of the original "units" it was before joining.

And because of that statement:

A unit that has a GK in it and a Non-GK is no longer a "Unit of GKs" (as described on page 20 of CH) and does not gain the benefits of Unit-Specific GreyKnight Special rules.

BEAR IN MIND!!! If the above is also true, then a GKGM (Or any hero for that matter) that joins a squad/has a retinue of even ENTIRELY GREY KNIGHTS would also not gain these benefits as the "Grey Knights' Terminology rule has no mention of the IC special rule or combined units, and neither do the Grey Knight special rules. (If "Combined Unit" is no longer a unit of the original type, then "Combined Units(even if entirely composed of "Grey Knight units")" are not "Grey Knight" units, and I challenge you to find where in the book it says they are)

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:You'll note that it doesn't say GK + anything else. That list is an exhaustive list, so unless you have some rule that allows you to say that a GK hero + some other non-GK unit still is just a GK hero then you have just proven yourself wrong.

Then why does the Tau codex SPECIFICALLY state the ENTIRE unit must be wearing stealth-suits to gain the range rule.

Why does the Witch Hunter codex specifically state that Acts of Faith (etc) are LOST when joining a non-sisters unit.

There are more examples of "Unit-wide"(as opposed to individual character specific) special rules that require wording to PROHIBIT their ability being shared then those that are to be ASSUMED prohibited (which is what is being done with the whole GreyKnight special rules set).

I believe that the rules say you can't use a Faith Point if a Faithful IC joins a non-faithful unit. So you can't even use it on units like Sisters Repentia or Exorcists since these are not faithful units. Can't use is different from lost. This also goes to the point that you can't mix special rule and non special rules units and take advantage of the special rules without a specific exception.
The Tau codex was written under a different edition's rule set so of course the wording would be different as well.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:You'll note that it doesn't say GK + anything else. That list is an exhaustive list, so unless you have some rule that allows you to say that a GK hero + some other non-GK unit still is just a GK hero then you have just proven yourself wrong.

Then why does the Tau codex SPECIFICALLY state the ENTIRE unit must be wearing stealth-suits to gain the range rule.

Why does the Witch Hunter codex specifically state that Acts of Faith (etc) are LOST when joining a non-sisters unit.

There are more examples of "Unit-wide"(as opposed to individual character specific) special rules that require wording to PROHIBIT their ability being shared then those that are to be ASSUMED prohibited (which is what is being done with the whole GreyKnight special rules set).

Because they are the Tau codex and the WH codex, which have how much bearing on the DH codex?

Oh, right. None.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
This also goes to the point that you can't mix special rule and non special rules units and take advantage of the special rules without a specific exception.
The Tau codex was written under a different edition's rule set so of course the wording would be different as well.

Actually, this goes to the point that you CAN mix special rule and none special rule units and take advantage of the special rules UNLESS there is a specific exception (such as the SPECIFIC EXCEPTION that non-faithful + faithful = can't use faith abilities).

The main rule book AGREES with this notion by only listing USRs that are LOST as opposed to listing ones that are RETAINED (it acually states that they ARE retained unless SPECIFICALLY STATED OTHERWISE)

Where is the statement that Grey Knights lose the shrouding when joining other units?

I am not disputing that the individual is a grey knight, he clearly is you just proved the GKGM is a grey knight - yeah, no duh.

What that list does not say is a unit with a GK and something else is a 'Grey Knight,' in fact it proves it isn't because it does not include them in the list. It says the "Following units" are Grey knights, so to be a Grey Knight unit you must be composed of the "following units"

Therefore, it is not a unit of Grey Knights.

Your argument is not confusing, it is simply completely arbitrary and incorrect.

The allergy analogy is complete bunk, your definition of the allergy is the problem. It should be "I am allergic to eggs and products that include eggs in them or egg derived products"

Unfortunately, a grey knight allergy only specifies, in the rulebook, that they are an allergen in their pure form.

There are many reasons why a GKGM -edit sloppy wording- having his shrouding be deactivated, he is with a unit of people who lack the psychic potential, he is not strong enough to shield them so firing at that group means he accidentally gets hit. Further, fluff != rules.

You know what else doesn't equal rules - the completely different rules in other rule books that you are trying to derive general principles from. There are not the kind of general interpretations that can be derived based on another codex's precedent.

Edit:

Where is the statement that Grey Knights lose the shrouding when joining other units?

They do not lose the shrouding, they just fail to meet the conditions required for it to be activated

calypso2ts wrote:

They do not lose the shrouding, they just fail to meet the conditions required for it to be activated

Here is the difference between the conditions

You say:

Conditions of being a "Unit of Grey knights" = All members of the unit MUST have the GK special rule (nothing supports this)

I say:

Conditions of being a "Unit of Grey Knights" = One or more members of the unit (if it is a combined unit) have the Grey knight special rule.

The Grey Knight special rule is NOT lost when a Unit/Model with it joins a unit that does NOT have it (This is supported by the rules).

If the rule is not lost, then at least part of the unit contains members with the special rule "Grey Knights" (also know as a "Meta-Unit" of Grey Knights) so the Shrouding applies.

JUST LIKE

IF a unit of Possessed Space Marines (which are defined as daemons) are joined by a Chaos sorcerer (not a daemon) they must roll for difficult terrain if they wish to assault a unit with the Grey Knight special rule (Rites of Exorcism specifically) even though they are no longer strictly a "Unit of Daemons" (but a Combined unit of Sorcerer + Daemon) they still contain the "Meta-Unit" of Daemons, and thus the ENTIRE unit are subject to the special rules that should only hinder a small part of the unit.

Because, and only because, of the SPECIFIC rule requiring the unit to move at the speed of its slowest model.

Which means it doesn't even begin to be a valid comparison.

What you're trying to say is that special rules are shared by ICs when they join a unit, which is specifically not the case.

If your unit of non-GKs gets to benefit from the Shrouding special rule, then any unit I attach my Chapter Master to gets to benefit from the Orbital Bombardment special rule. So if I attach my Chapter Master to a unit of ten Tactical Marines, it effectively allows me to throw eleven Orbital Bombardments at you.

I like playing the game by your made-up rules!

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:I say:

Conditions of being a "Unit of Grey Knights" = One or more members of the unit (if it is a combined unit) have the Grey knight special rule.

The Grey Knight special rule is NOT lost when a Unit/Model with it joins a unit that does NOT have it (This is supported by the rules)
.

Book and page please.

As to your theory that the BRB says that unless marked otherwise a USR is not lost in mixed units again it's a different edition of the rules than the DH codex so that doesn't hold water. The DH errata specifically says that only fearless and infiltrate from the the codex are covered by the USR rules in the BRB. With that in mind there is no way that you can make the claim that shroud should follow the same rules as other USR rules. It is unique to DH and only DH units may use it. You have already given the exculsive list of GH units and mixed units aren't on it. Unless you can find a rule that says that mixed units are considered GH units you have no case to plead.

"Hey Commisar is that a unit of grey knights? Sir."
"Well it might look like one Tbox, but as you can see there's a 'a non-GK IC' leading them"
"Ah why on earth would GK sully themselfs like that? Sir."
"They don't seem to know either, if fact we can see them clearly... Fire!"

*Shrug*
Hope there's not too much heresy in there.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Much like if you have an Archon joined to a squad of mandrakes, and if he is assaulted, the Mandrakes shadowskinned special rule require the assaulting unit to take a difficult terrain test, if they fail to reach the unit of Mandrakes, they fail to reach the Combined unit of the Archon and the Mandrakes.

I'm sorry but that's not how Mandrakes work, they just make the unit go last as if the charging unit had gone through difficult terrain, like with Stealth Suits in Tau . . . But this is beside the point and off topic . . .

Oshova

So the crux of your argument is...

'For a unit to be considered a unit of Grey Knights it must include one or more models with the 'Grey Knights' special rule'

If that is your assertion then I have no rebuttal. However, I would like to sell you a unit of gold. It is mainly lead, but it does have a gold atom in it, thusly making it a unit of gold...

SaintHazard wrote:

What you're trying to say is that special rules are shared by ICs when they join a unit, which is specifically not the case.

If your unit of non-GKs gets to benefit from the Shrouding special rule, then any unit I attach my Chapter Master to gets to benefit from the Orbital Bombardment special rule. So if I attach my Chapter Master to a unit of ten Tactical Marines, it effectively allows me to throw eleven Orbital Bombardments at you.

I like playing the game by your made-up rules!

Not at all!

I am saying, that special rules are not LOST by ICs when they join a unit.

You don't get 11 bombardments, you get 1, by what you are saying, you'd get 0 (Cause the Tac marines DON'T have the Bombardment Special rule, but the IC DOES). Also, you are comparing offensive abilities with limited uses to a static defensive ability.

The only reason "my" (which is ironic, as I play DE/CSM and don't plan on building a DH army anytime soon) non-gk unit benefits from the shrouding special rule is because the unit has a GK in it(or is a squad of GKs joined by a non GK), and the GK(s) itself should not(according to this thread) and does not(according to the rules) lose ITS own protective measures.

Riddle me this?

What else in this game (that I haven't already mentioned, as clearly those examples are not adequate enough to sway your opinions) arises a similar situation then that of the Grey Knights special rule?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sigh...

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Book and page please.

Book: BRB
Page: 48
Section: Special Rules
Line: 4-6

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Unless you can find a rule that says that mixed units are considered GH units you have no case to plead.

So then you would agree that:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
A GKGM (Or any GK hero for that matter) that joins a squad/has a retinue of even ENTIRELY GREY KNIGHTS would also not gain these benefits as the "Grey Knights' Terminology rule has no mention of the IC special rule or combined units, and neither do the Grey Knight special rules. (If "Combined Unit" is no longer a unit of the original type, then "Combined Units(even if entirely composed of "Grey Knight units")" are not "Grey Knight" units, and I challenge you to find where in the book it says they are)

If yes, then thats a WHOLE separate thread.

Oshova wrote:

I'm sorry but that's not how Mandrakes work, they just make the unit go last as if the charging unit had gone through difficult terrain, like with Stealth Suits in Tau . . .

Page 36 BRB
Assaulting through cover
: Paraphrase : If you are assaulting a unit in cover, you must make a Difficult Terrain check. If you take a Difficult (or dangerous for that matter) terrain test, you strike at I1 (pending certain conditions). : Paraphrase :

Page 6 C: DE
Shadow Skinned
: Paraphrase : Mandrakes always count as being in cover, this counts in an assault as well : Paraphrase :

So yeah...

calypso2ts wrote:
If that is your assertion then I have no rebuttal. However, I would like to sell you a unit of gold. It is mainly lead, but it does have a gold atom in it, thusly making it a unit of gold...

Ill give you the worth of both the lead and the atom of gold (I am quite amazed that you fit a single atom of gold in your unit of lead!) as they both make up the unit in question, and neither should have their value increased or decreased based on the composition of either. However, if you had just enough gold to completely surround the lead, I am sure the unit will look more appealing!

Can anyone think up a metaphor that actually applies to the topic at hand without applying sarcasm and condescension? I'm still waiting for that evidence that the GK special rules REQUIRE the entire unit be composed of GKs in order to gain the benefits of their rules. So far, all I have seen is evidence proving that in situations similar to this, the rules CLEARLY state if the rules would be lost if any model would not have the same abilities of any member of the unit...

I need to reiterate - the GKGM does not lose shrouding, he still has it. However, he is unfortunately not in a unit of GK.

Further, you cannot pull examples from another codex, it just does not apply. If you could then I could argue SM have a Storm Shield with a 4+ in CC only, because that is the way it is in the GK codex.

Grey Knight terminology is specified in the definition you posted. The rule for shrouding states it applied to a unit of 'Grey Knights,' that is a unit having the designation 'Grey Knights' as specified by the definition above. When the unit is not composed of models with said definition, then it is not a unit of 'Grey Knights'

An apt comparison (if one is required) is ATSKNF. If a standard OH Inquisitor is attached to a squad of tactical marines, they still have ATSKNF. Unfortunately, ATSKNF does not help them anymore. I draw this conclusion based on the special exemption to this statement that allows the unit to be subject to ATSKNF if servitors are attached provided they are from the SM codex.

In the same way ATSKNF does not help a unit of SM with an OH Inquisitor, Shrouding does not help a unit of Grey Knights with an attached IC, or a unit of IST with an attached GKGM.

calypso2ts wrote:I need to reiterate - the GKGM does not lose shrouding, he still has it. However, he is unfortunately not in a unit of GK.

Where is your source for this?

calypso2ts wrote:
Further, you cannot pull examples from another codex, it just does not apply. If you could then I could argue SM have a Storm Shield with a 4+ in CC only, because that is the way it is in the GK codex.

This holds no relevance to the current rules question. Also, if other mechanics of the game are not to be referenced when "Makin' Da Call" then what grounds would you say can/should be used as justification for how a rules call would be made (that is what this is, a rules call.) The Rule states that A if an enemy targets a Unit of Grey knights. The Call is: Does that mean the unit must ONLY contain Grey Knights, or can it be comprised of units from other armies, as long as a unit of Grey Knights is present. THERE IS NO CLEAR CUT ANSWER! (If there were, this would not be up for debate) SO, instead of me saying "Units of GK and non GK benefit from the Shrouding Special rule, because I say so" (which seems to be the opposing argument) I am using other examples of similar mechanics in other codexes to JUSTIFY MY ARGUMENT.

calypso2ts wrote:
Grey Knight terminology is specified in the definition you posted. The rule for shrouding states it applied to a unit of 'Grey Knights,' that is a unit having the designation 'Grey Knights' as specified by the definition above. When the unit is not composed of models with said definition, then it is not a unit of 'Grey Knights'

As I have asked a thousand times already, what is your justification for this statement.

calypso2ts wrote:
An apt comparison (if one is required) is ATSKNF. If a standard OH Inquisitor is attached to a squad of tactical marines, they still have ATSKNF. Unfortunately, ATSKNF does not help them anymore. I draw this conclusion based on the special exemption to this statement that allows the unit to be subject to ATSKNF if servitors are attached provided they are from the SM codex.

In the same way ATSKNF does not help a unit of SM with an OH Inquisitor, Shrouding does not help a unit of Grey Knights with an attached IC, or a unit of IST with an attached GKGM.

ATSKNF DOES(Or Should, I've NEVER heard of any other situation) help the Unit in case they were to be beaten in Close Combat and fail their moral check (or, chose to fail in the case of an Inquisitor Lord with Iron Will) and they are victim to a sweeping advance. I personally thing that a "No Retreat" rule is favorable to a "Simply wiped out" situation...