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Personally, I don't think it sheds any light on the subject, it just makes me want to check that game out.

Well, fine with me... Just a little heads-up: You need great amount of patience to work the LoS out in the game, cause the unique nature of PSP joystick is just too cunning and the camera angle is just epic-fail. With that being said, and I assume all Warhammer 40k desktop players share the patient manner as common sense... Yeah I would say you will enjoy the game.

And would my previous post be a suggestion? Shotgun works as some unique template weapon?

Having fired them in real life, with a variety of loads from bird to buck to slug, they really don't scatter too far. You -might- be able to hit too people with enough shot to do something to them at the "close" engagement range of the equivalent of 10" in real life, but more likely you will not.

M.

Infantryman wrote:Having fired them in real life, with a variety of loads from bird to buck to slug, they really don't scatter too far. You -might- be able to hit too people with enough shot to do something to them at the "close" engagement range of the equivalent of 10" in real life, but more likely you will not.

I agree since I fired several shotguns at some flying clay plates last year.

But consider in the grim darkness of 40k, it's not really the "real life" we are talking about... The technology for ensuring accuracy is all but lost, especially for weapons like shotguns that are not equipped to the best of Emporer...

What's so cool about a 40k Shotgun if it doesn't act like a Shotgun? The Imperium will lose the plans for Lasguns before they forget how to build a perfectly servicable Shotgun.

Honestly, shotguns are right where they should be. They shouldn't be stronger than S3 as that's where assault rifles are, and shotguns aren't shooting tiny explosive missiles everywhere. They shouldn't use a blast or template, because shotguns are nothing like a flamethrower or a grenade. They should be 12", S3, AP-, Assault 2 because it makes them a more close-range oriented weapon than the lasgun but a less close-range oriented outfit than a close combat weapon and laspistol would be, and this is role that needs to be filled.

Sniper rifles on the other hand, are weird. I have no idea why they're as liable to wound an ork as they are a grot.

So, as I mentioned above, why not assault 3? It's got to have -something- over any other gun at 12". At 12" my lasgun can shoot twice; the shotgun only gains something if the squad moved.

M.

grayspark wrote:Strength 5? Really? Does that make any sense? Is that really even balanced?

I think shotguns are fine as they are

I'd have to agree.

Infantryman wrote:So, as I mentioned above, why not assault 3? It's got to have -something- over any other gun at 12". At 12" my lasgun can shoot twice; the shotgun only gains something if the squad moved.

M.

Uh...I think you just answered your own question man.

Nurglitch wrote:What's so cool about a 40k Shotgun if it doesn't act like a Shotgun? The Imperium will lose the plans for Lasguns before they forget how to build a perfectly servicable Shotgun.

Point taken. QFT.

Remember that sniper rifles require special training, and that using one well isn't as simple as putting the crosshair on a target. I personally loved the idea of a beefed up sniper rule, and I think its a shame that the weapon system isn't as dynamic as those on the modern battlefield.

For shotguns, I could see assult 3 if they wern't free upgrades. I also think they should have the ability to fire slugs, It could work like special ammo, instead of using the assult 2 shot rounds, you could fire 1 slug at strengh 4.

Another quick idea is to make the shotgun a weapon which hits more often. Shotguns are generally eaiser to use than rifles, so perhaps the user could always fire at a higher BS.

Hellfire rounds?

Now you know you're a good shot when you take into account the SPIN OF THE PLANET YOU ARE STANDING ON X_X

M.

Yes the sniper rifle has suffered in its latest rendition. The 50/50 wounding makes it a specialist weapon with payoffs on high T models. Rending gives it lethality versus FNP and high armor values. But losing the 2+ to hit has nerfed it. Against a normal target at 24" a bolter in the hands of a SM will hit 67% and against most of the universe wound 50% of the time so a 33% yield or 44% against T3. While the sniper rifle used to hit 83% and wound 50% so a 42% yield no matter the toughness. Today a marine scout is down to a 25% yield per shot. Now in the old codexes, a sniper rifle came at a 5 point premium so you could argue that the yield has really stayed the same. The problem is in 5th ed - where flanking, running and 18" army separation has replaced 4th and earlier 24" separation the usefulness of a long ranged shot is minimal. Today, scouts with bolters should be taken with a ML or HB to serve the same role as snipers.

My wish would just be give snipers a +1 BS and the range and make it not subject to cover. It then could perform a specific role.

Shotguns - in comparison to other weapons at S 3 to me were perfectly acceptable. When they handed manstopper rounds (S4) out to scouts I was fine with it but it being assault give it a purpose when placed opposite a rapid fire bolter or bolt pistol. It doesn't need anything in the GW cause of keeping the game simple.

Shotguns should be a S5 hit.

Snipers are high-powered, accurate long range rifles. They should be S5 or S6 and +1 ballistic skill (though they are +5pts each)

Suicidal Cheez wrote:Shotguns should be a S5 hit.

Snipers are high-powered, accurate long range rifles. They should be S5 or S6 and +1 ballistic skill (though they are +5pts each)

But their accuracy is already accounted for in the longer range. The accuracy of a gun in 40k isn't reflected in a modification to the BS, but in the range of a gun.

Clearly the bolt from a boltgun travels further than 12", the distance a Marine can run in the same amount of time it takes to fire the gun. But, it's not very accurate, so the gun is only considered usable up to 12". A sniper rifle shot also must travel further than 36" (relatively short when you compare it to other game distances), but even it's accuracy isn't great past that distance.

As for Shotguns being S5, that may be the way to go to make them more "realistic". But, keep in mind futuristic laser weapons are only str 3 and high-powered exploding grenades are only str 4.

How is S5 remotely realistic when a .50 cal is S4?

That template could work for buckshot... maybe differentt rounds?

Nurglitch wrote:How is S5 remotely realistic when a .50 cal is S4?

Assuming that the heavy stubber represents a .50 cal. Maybe the Heavy bolter represents that type of weapon. Whatever your metric though S5 is too high for Shotguns. I was always of the opinion they should be S4 across the board.

IIRC the Vindicare's sniper rifle is S5, I always imagined that to be a .50 weapon.

Nurglitch wrote:How is S5 remotely realistic when a .50 cal is S4?

I don't think .50 cal rounds are represented in their strength, but rather through their accuracy.

Think about it. It doesen't really matter how big the bullet is going through your head. Your dead and thats it.

No, I'm pretty sure S4 AP6 is the Strength and Armour Piercing of a .50 Heavy Stubber. A .50cal round going through my head is a natural 6 rolled to wound.

You know, if it wasn't for people wanting rules that made shotguns and sniper rifles more like their video game equivalents this would be a pretty quiet forum.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Sniper rifles on the other hand, are weird. I have no idea why they're as liable to wound an ork as they are a grot.

Back when GW first wrote up rules for sniper rifles, maybe for pathfinders maybe for marines I can't remember, they gave them toxin rounds that had an even chance of wounding regardless of the target's toughness. Which is an interesting idea for one specialist unit in the game. Thing is, somewhere along the way every sniper rifle everywhere started equipping itself with toxin rounds, which doesn't make a lot of sense. Surely some would only fire slugs, some would fire toxin rounds and others would be capable of firing either?

Anyway, that's why they always wound on a 4+.

sebster wrote:You know, if it wasn't for people wanting rules that made shotguns and sniper rifles more like their video game equivalents this would be a pretty quiet forum.

I get what you are saying. But my point is also "I'd rather shotguns and sniper rifles stay where they are right now in the current rule sets", but on a different stand. Surprised?

One can't expect the desktop games and their video-game equivalents to be really "equivalent". The game engine and mass-calculation ability utilized in video-games is not available in desktop games. D&D-based video games are whole different things compared to D&D desktop, from my experience - and it's meant to be that way too, I believe.

Same case here, in Warhammer 40k universe. If not, why even bother to sit down for a whole afternoon or a whole day and roll numerous time of dice to reanimate a epic battle of Warhammer 40k when there are DoW FoK mode or DoW2 out there to give you a quick skirmish in 10 minutes?

Cause they are essencially DIFFERENT games. And please respect BOTH.

Nurglitch wrote:No, I'm pretty sure S4 AP6 is the Strength and Armour Piercing of a .50 Heavy Stubber. A .50cal round going through my head is a natural 6 rolled to wound.

QFT. Again. And my two cents: Note that this head has a ceramite-armored helmet protecting it and even a mini-RPG, or so-called "bolt" can't sufficiently penetrate it. Why do you think a metal or whatever-material slug that is essencially the same from 20th century has any hope to do so? Yes it can find its mark rather more accurate, with all its enhanced targeting devices, e.g. sniper scope. But that doen't mean it can WOUND a enemy.

Suicidal Cheez wrote:Shotguns should be a S5 hit.

No, they should not.

Unless you're going to give that to my Guard, too.

In which case, yes, they should.

I would be perfectly fine with ripping your Marines a new ***hole with my cheap, spammy spammable shotgun spam.

Guard shotty is S3 in this edition still, correct? If so why's the Marine version S4?

M.

Suicidal Cheez wrote: Shotguns should be a S5 hit.

As Melissia said. I will happily take my free upgrade from S3 lasguns in my vet squads to S5 shotguns, and laugh as I slaughter Marines left and right.

Is it broken? Yes. Will I enjoy it? Also yes.

I really hope you were being sarcastic, as I think the whole YMDC forum is growing weary of having to explain that shotguns in videogames do not equal shotguns in real life, hence do not equal shotguns in 40k.

Infantryman wrote:Guard shotty is S3 in this edition still, correct? If so why's the Marine version S4?

M.

Yes, it's a free upgrade to veterans. I had the luck of having one of my shotgun vets killing a Marine with a shotgun Chimera drive by....the mental image is really quite awesome. But to answer your question....

Fluff: Scouts are stronger than a normal human, and thus can handle the recoil of a larger round, thus giving their shotguns more power.

Real (probably): GW loves Space Marines. Space Marines always have to be awesome. If that means they get a cooler shotgun, then by the Emperor a cooler shotgun they will have!

Kudos if anyone catches the paraphrase.

Actually the real would be: If Imperial Guard Shotguns were S4, no one would take Lasguns on troops that could take Shotguns, and that would be stupid. Similarly if Space Marine Shotguns were S3, no one would take Shotguns if they could take Close Combat Weapons or Bolters.

Assault 3. Playtest tiem.

M.

I tried it with Scouts and then with my Vet army.

Too strong, Strength 3 or not.

ryanstartalker wrote:I get what you are saying.

All I was saying was that this question comes up a lot

Cause they are essencially DIFFERENT games. And please respect BOTH.

The primary difference is the format, really. One is a game for miniature hobbyists; the other is a computer game. This is a significantly greater difference than any rules variation.

ChrisWWII wrote:Fluff: Scouts are stronger than a normal human, and thus can handle the recoil of a larger round, thus giving their shotguns more power.

Real (probably): GW loves Space Marines. Space Marines always have to be awesome. If that means they get a cooler shotgun, then by the Emperor a cooler shotgun they will have!

Your first answer is on the money – the physically bigger and better equipped marines carry bigger and higher quality shotguns than Guardsmen.

Your second answer is an odd one, you seem to be complaining about the design principle that marines are a higher quality but more elite army. That’s basically a core design goal of the army.

The second answer I made was meant to be taken in more of a joking format...my bad for not making that more clear.

But in any case, I'm not denying that the Scouts should take a better shotgun, they are the Emperor's elite and all that, and it makes sense that they get a better shotgun. But yes, Nurglitch also did pretty good with his real world explanation, and that's the more serious answer. Mine was simple joking around.