Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

grayspark wrote:I tried it with Scouts and then with my Vet army.

Too strong, Strength 3 or not.

Blast! Thwarted again.

Maybe a special rule like Melta? Gets some bonus if at half range or something.

M.

Personally, I think they're perfectly fine the way they are.

Agreed. Shotguns are fine. I mean, for IG at least they're a free upgrade, they don't need to be uberdeath guns.

For Marines they're also a free upgrade. And an acceptably good alternative to BP+CCW for an assault-based scout squad against high initiative targets.

Yep. For me at least, I don't run them mainly because I view the lasgun as superior for the shooty Guard, but that's just me. I took one in place of my Vet Sarges' laspistols just so I could get 2 shots instead of 1. More over, it's not like I expect my vets to be doing well in close combat....what's the point of gaining the extra attack?

Try using a squad of pace vets with shotguns, heavy flamer, and two flamers.

They might surprise you with how well they can do.

Really? I mean, it sounds like they'd dish out awful amounts of pain if they can get close enough, but without a Chimera, I can't see them being able to live long enough to get close to the enemy.

That and I have a major fear of using my BS4 unit for auto-hit weapons. Wouldn't a PCS do the job better as far as flamer spam?

THey could, but they couldn't tie what's left of the unit up as well afterwards, nor could they have seven shotguns to support the flamers (including the vet with shotgun).

I've had this kind of vet squad destroy a squad of tacticals in close combat, shooting all of that and then charging. Sure, they took losses, but not as many as one would expect given how many tacs they killed in the shooting phase.

You do make a good point...I'lll have to try this out at some point. Sounds very interesting, and could slot up well with a siege themed army...

Something to keep in mind of play-testing, particularly with regards to things like "Try Shotguns at Assault 3" or "A squad of my Veterans armed with Shotguns once destroyed a squad of Tactical Marines" is that playtesting won't show you where your results lie on expected distribution for the number of dice results unless you record all the dice results and crunch the numbers for expected results, and you can make the whole business much faster and easier by simply crunching the numbers for the expected results.

In other words, while Assault 3 may sound like a good idea, it's only a good idea if it's balanced with the other options available to units that take Shotguns (balance here meaning shotguns remain a viable option but don't become the no-brainer choice), and that balanced is defined in terms of what anybody with normal dice could expect rather than what you have already rolled.

Question: What do I test numbers against?

M.

You also have to compare it in points cost to other things so they don't become underpriced.

Infantryman wrote:Question: What do I test numbers against?

M.

The best way to do that is to take a weapon that's roughly equivalent to the kind of gun you want, then add or subtract points till it reaches a reasonable point to you. Then run a few playtests with it.

If it seems to not do anything, and you feel like you could have bought something much much more killy for the points, then you've overpriced it or have given it too few advantages over the baseline.

If it seems to just kick ass left and right, and there is no damn reason you won't take this gun EVERYWHERE you can, then you've underpriced it, or given it too many advantages over the baseline.

It's hard work that takes a lot of games against gamers you know really well.

Or a quick set of calculations.

For example:

A Shotgun gives a Scout 2x S4 AP- shots within 12", but it's assault so if the Scout is within 6" of an enemy they can assault with A1+1.

A Close Combat Weapon gives a Scout 1x S4 AP5 shot within 12" from its Bolt Pistol, and A1+2 if the Scout is within 6" and assaults the enemy.

A Boltgun gives a Scout 2x S4 AP5 shots within 12", and 1x S4 AP5 shot within 24", but it's rapid fire so the Scout can't assault after using it. But Scouts always have a Bolt Pistol, and a Scout with Boltgun and Bolt Pistol can opt for a 1x S4 AP5 shot within 6", and charge for A1+1.

To figure expected damage, multiply the number of shots by the fraction to hit, wound, and save at each range band (24", 12", and 6") and for each potential target. Higher numbers correspond to more expected casualties.

Factoring tactics into the valuation will change the value as well. While different weapons may have equivalent rates of damage, the actual damage that can be expected to be caused will vary depending on what strategy you're pursuing.

Again, if you're going to restrict the number of tactics to the handful of games you can play every day, or 'play-testing', you're going to end up with a skewed vision of the actual value of an item for all games.

Often a problem with developing rules and games is that the game you play and the game described by the rules get separated by the play-testing experiences of the developers.

ChrisWWII wrote:The second answer I made was meant to be taken in more of a joking format...my bad for not making that more clear.

But in any case, I'm not denying that the Scouts should take a better shotgun, they are the Emperor's elite and all that, and it makes sense that they get a better shotgun. But yes, Nurglitch also did pretty good with his real world explanation, and that's the more serious answer. Mine was simple joking around.

Cool, sorry I misread and didn't see the joke. It's hard to spot humour a lot of the time, because something you or I might say as a joke, someone else could just as easily say quite seriously

Hey the flamer marker thing is 12" isn't it use that with a STR 4 and maybe 5pts upgrade
Then you have your shotgun spread.


As for the sniper rifle I would say 2+ to hit 3+ to wound (because of headshot, weakpoint hit ect.) no armour saves.
But have range:
6-36
But yes this would make it very powerful so upgrade for 40pts