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Alright, these are two of my favorite weapons usually in almost any game, but in Warhammer 40K they are a bit of a disappointment, especially the shotgun.
First off, sniper rifles. Aren't they supposed to be more accurate than regular rifles? Sure, in the game, you get the increased range and ease of killing that sniper rifles should, but your chances of hitting something with one are just the same as if you had a standard rifle. I think that you should at least get a re-roll to hit with sniper rifles. Another option I guess would be to increase the wielder's BS, but I think that would be a bit much. I'll take a re-roll any day though.
Next, shotguns. The imperial shotgun is really weak, and the only thing special about it really is that it's an Assault 2 weapon. But that gives it a higher rate of fire than a rapid-fire weapon, and shotguns are usually slower! I'd keep the assualt weapon aspect of it, but I'd really like to see its power increased. Shotguns are scatter weapons, so you can kill more than one person with them, or at least multiply your chances of killing one person immensely, since multiple bullets are hitting him. I don't think it should get a blast, but at least it should be able to blow individuals to pieces with ease. At least Strength 4! And better AP too. Any ideas?

Sniper Rifles of old-days did hit more often on their own rules. I believe they all hit on a 2+ regardless of the BS of their user. I'd love to see this returned, not because I think the models that fire them need it, but because of how few hit the board in armies...they're too random and uneffective to worth putting points into.

Even Eldar Rangers/Pathfinders aren't really used for theif offensive abilities, but their ability to survive fire and hold backline objectives.

And for the shotgun, I'd say a STR up wouldn't be terrible, but the AP should remain nil or minor.

Pathfinders are alive and well in games that do not get vehicle happly.

Doing a campaign at the FLGS and am playing Eldar. Two games at 1000 pts I took a unit of 10 Pathfinders as my "heavy" choice. And have done it in the past.
I do agree though that other snipers are rarely seen as their accuracy and effectiveness is quite limited in 5th ed environment.

As far as shotguns - you are wanting the necromunda shotgun that I loved. Mini- 1" no cover save blast and even if it didn't kill the opponent could get knocked to the ground and spend a turn standing up. Maybe you want
Assault 1, S3 AP- Blast.

Fallanir wrote: Alright, these are two of my favorite weapons usually in almost any game, but in Warhammer 40K they are a bit of a disappointment, especially the shotgun.
First off, sniper rifles. Aren't they supposed to be more accurate than regular rifles? Sure, in the game, you get the increased range and ease of killing that sniper rifles should, but your chances of hitting something with one are just the same as if you had a standard rifle. I think that you should at least get a re-roll to hit with sniper rifles. Another option I guess would be to increase the wielder's BS, but I think that would be a bit much. I'll take a re-roll any day though.
Next, shotguns. The imperial shotgun is really weak, and the only thing special about it really is that it's an Assault 2 weapon. But that gives it a higher rate of fire than a rapid-fire weapon, and shotguns are usually slower! I'd keep the assualt weapon aspect of it, but I'd really like to see its power increased. Shotguns are scatter weapons, so you can kill more than one person with them, or at least multiply your chances of killing one person immensely, since multiple bullets are hitting him. I don't think it should get a blast, but at least it should be able to blow individuals to pieces with ease. At least Strength 4! And better AP too. Any ideas?

Well, here's the thing:

First off, I don't remember the current rules for sniper rifles. They used to be hit on a 2+, wound on a 4+, with an AP of 6, and they could pin units. The idea was that they were loaded with some sort of toxin or whatever, hence the 4+ wound no matter what. One of the main reasons why the Vindicare assassin was so good was because (among other things) his rifle had an AP of 2, and he could pick out which units he killed (special ammo made it all the easier).

As for shotguns...I remember them being Range 12, Strength 3, Assault 2, with no AP value.

Ironically, this is a fairly accurate reflection of a shotgun, even in the present era. Shotguns have recoil, yes, but it's a lot less than Elmer Fudd would lead you to believe, hence the Assault part: you can fire it on the move with much more ease than an automatic rifle. Similarly, even military-grade shotguns don't have very good armor penetration. They rely on dozens of tiny, spherical shots rather than a single shaped bullet. That leaves us with a nonexistant AP: we're dealing with military men, wearing military body armor, nearly all of which is effective against shotguns even at point-blank.

The only reason I can give for the low stopping power is comparison. A lasgun is weaker than a bolter, obviously. And a shotgun is hardly a bolter's strength equal. As such, it's more comparable to a lasgun in terms of strength than anything else.

I wouldn't mind them being upped to strength 4, though. I probably still won't use them anyway.

DAaddict wrote:Pathfinders are alive and well in games that do not get vehicle happly.

Doing a campaign at the FLGS and am playing Eldar. Two games at 1000 pts I took a unit of 10 Pathfinders as my "heavy" choice. And have done it in the past.
I do agree though that other snipers are rarely seen as their accuracy and effectiveness is quite limited in 5th ed environment.

As far as shotguns - you are wanting the necromunda shotgun that I loved. Mini- 1" no cover save blast and even if it didn't kill the opponent could get knocked to the ground and spend a turn standing up. Maybe you want
Assault 1, S3 AP- Blast.

I agree that large squads of Pathfinders can be effective, but in the grand scheme of things in the current environment, I don't think it works as intended. For their points cost they aren't really able to regain their value, the current competitive environment is vehicle happy, so you are right in that they could be useful...theoretically. But practically, against most comers...you'd find them searching for things to do. And even then you have to get some results that matter, like the small chance at pinning.

Rangers/Pathfinders are also more vulnerable than you'd imagine. One well placed set of flamer templates froms something like Combi-flamer Stern or drive-by Burnaboys(both very prevalent)and you lose 240 pts of troops. Ouch. You just helped a 10-man Stern Droppod unit make up it's points value.

I usually only use Pathfinder units in Apoc games, I find their abilities come into their own then when points can be tossed around a little more freely than 1850 and lower games.

The thing that kills snipers is the increased number of deepstrikers and outflankers/ infiltrators this takes away the strength of their range and ability to put wounds on even the toughest things

I enjoy running rangers/pathfinders but I only do in friendly games or in game with huge point totals

Sniper Rifles:
They are more accurate than a standard assault rifle, but have a lower rate of fire. However, the ultimate accuracy of any gun in limited by the person using it. Every weapon in 40k reflects this rule, the accuracy of a gun changes its range, but your chance to hit is based solely on BS. This is also how snipers behave in game, longer range and fewer shots.

Shotguns:
You're overestimating the actual spread on a shotgun. They don't really behave like Halo at all. Their spread is fairly tight even over a significant distance, which is why people primarily use them for hunting birds. Your actual chances of hitting multiple people is fairly low. They also don't have much in terms of real life armor penetration, especially compared to a standard assault rifle. Could their strength be increased? Maybe. But, keep in mind bolters fire grenades and lasguns fire lasers. It's hard to get a good comparison with fictional weapons

I agree with the fact that these weapons behave different in the 40k world than you'd expect. I loved the hit on a 2+ for snipers and if they brought that back i would be happy, i don't know why they got rid of it tbh. And for the shotgun thing i don't see why it has to be a modern day equivalent of the shotgun? its the future i'm sure the found out how to make it much more powerful. I like the idea about the "knock them on their ass's rule" and even if it was just a str4 12" -AP and assault 2 you would see a lot more use of it.

I agree Sniper weapons could do with some TLC. I know in 40k most use somekind of a toxin, however I would like to see something 'similar' to our own high-calibre monsters that we have today. It strikes me that most armies have somekind of armour, especially when it comes to characters i.e. the most likely targets for assassination. This aside I would be happy if units with Sniper weapons could pick their targets (allocate the wounds). However other rules would have to be introduced to compensate for this ability. Independent characters could receive a cover save if within a unit and assault and heavy weapons could be 'picked up' by other models...or something like this...

As for shotguns I think it's tricky to implement. They used to have a choice between solid round giving them a 'push back' abilty and a scatter shot. A toughness test could be used for the knock back which could be the equivalent of pinning or a lesser version (???) - obviously this would not affect Monstrous Creatures or heavily armoured targets. I think if you gave them blast they'd have to be reduced to strength 3. As for not being able to hit multiple people - well just look at the AA12. A 40k equivelent would be awesome as a Special Weapon upgrade for Scouts & Veteran Gurad units/Storm Troopers IMHO...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c

IIRC Space Marines can always take Tellion?

This thread again?

Sniper rifles are fine. If you want to completely rework them, keep in mind all the various units that have them. Do you really want cheap ratling snipers to have uber BS5 poisoned armor save ignoring sniper rifles?

Yes?

Just up the points cost, y'all... Ratlings are Elites after all.

So basically you want to have to rebalance EVERY SINGLE SNIPER UNIT IN THE GAME all because you want to make a completely and utterly unnecessary change to the Sniper weapons?

This can be addressed simply - have different sniper rifles and shotguns. It seems like the sniper rifles most armies use are more like light sniper rifles or rifle variants, more sharpshooter weapons than "One Shot One Kill" weapons that everyone wants - Barret .50's and the like. So make different types, that can be bought either as upgrades, or for new house rule units.
As far as Shotguns, I think it's silly to have a weapon named the same thing with different profiles in different books. Settle whether they are base S3 or 4, then have different shell upgrades you can buy, rather than trying to cram everything into one. Say
Scatter s3 ap- assault 2 12"
Solid Slug s4 ap- assault 1 18"
Man Stopper s4 ap5 assault 1 18"

and specific armies could have them at different costs or have more esoteric shells representing their access to specialized wargear.

"Unnecessary" is entirely an individual opinion.

And you make it sound so gargantuan: What's wrong with hoping they do that in 6th ed? Just because you think that a sniper missing 50% of the time is acceptable doesn't mean y'all can do the "OMG UNREASONABLE" argument

Henners91 wrote:Just because you think that a sniper missing 50% of the time is acceptable

If you have a problem with scout snipers, then adjust the statlines of scout snipers. They are not, and have never been, the only sniper unit that matters.

For that matter not even all scout snipers are at BS3 anyway. Scout Snipers that DO have Bs3 are noobs, they can't hit every shot-- and nor should they hit more than half the time.

If you want veteran scout snipers, go houserule a veteran scout snipers unit. That's what GW did with Space Wolves and Dark Angels.

Why not give the shotguns the ability to ignore cover? They only have a 12" range, so it wouldn't be over balancing.

Why would a shotgun ignore cover?

All of you that are trying to restat weapons, go to a firing range, and actually fire them first. I know this is 38,000 years into the future, but buckshot is buckshot and bullets are bullets.

But CrashURSAR - haven't you played ANY computer games? WE all *know* that shotguns have a range of 4 yards and that beyond that are useless and that they spread about 5yards wide.

/sarcasm

I concur with going to a firing range. Having a more accurate weapon doesn't mean you will hit more if your BS is low. All the rangefinders, lasers, mil-dot scope, low recoil upgrades in the world aren't going to make your bullets hit if you have the shakes.

seriously?
this?
Shotguns AGAIN!

SNIPERS wound on a 4+.
shotguns will do equal amounts of damage as a lasgun at 12" range, and you might be able to charge.

Actually, I think shotguns should be just a little bit better- on scouts, they're almost never worth taking to me. If you want to shoot, botlers are better. To assualt, bolt pistols. easy. So shot guns should have something like this: S: 5 AP: 6 Assault 2, 12'' range. Then I might take 'em.

Snipers are mostly fine for me. I just wish they did better against vehicles, even tho you wouldn't use them that much except for hitting the crew.

Sure you can take bolt pistols and have a higher AP value, but with shotguns you sacrifice the AP and gain an extra shot before you charge into close combat. It's a give and take system. If every weapon was better than every other weapon, the little shred of balance 40k is holding on to would cease to exist.

Yeah, but you lose that extra attack in CC... so I'd rather take one shot with AP 5, then 3 attacks over 2 shots with AP - and 2 attacks. But maybe that's just me.

I think we all would, but currently, you would lose the point behind taking shotguns, and bolt pistols would probably have to become more expensive. There has to be a pro and con to everything, and it can't just be point costs.

Asgeirr Darkwolf wrote:Actually, I think shotguns should be just a little bit better- on scouts, they're almost never worth taking to me. If you want to shoot, botlers are better. To assualt, bolt pistols. easy. So shot guns should have something like this: S: 5 AP: 6 Assault 2, 12'' range. Then I might take 'em.

Snipers are mostly fine for me. I just wish they did better against vehicles, even tho you wouldn't use them that much except for hitting the crew.

Strength 5? Really? Does that make any sense? Is that really even balanced?

I think shotguns are fine as they are, sure they aren't used a whole lot, but I use them with my Veteran squads. Melta Spam + Shotguns means I can charge with them to finish off those last few enemies and advance up the field.

Therefore, the way I view shotguns, is that they are misused, and underestimated. There are infact really effective against armies with T3.

Ok lets have some facts.

A .50cal shot in 40k is S4 AP6, that's worse than a boltgun. Big calibre solid shot guns are useful for killing humans, but in a galaxy filled with super-men and giant aliens an automatic grenade launcher is better. This is why they are killed with toxins and poisons and wound on 4+ always.

While sniper rifles are more accurate than automatic weapons with higher rates of fire they dont make you better at shooting. They still rely on the skill of the firer to be able to hit anything. Remember that it's much harder to hit a moving target with a single shot than it is with lots of shots. This is why you dont get any bonuses to hit with them.

Shotguns do fire in a spread, but not nearly enough to be able to hit multiple targets with a single shot. Even if you did you wouldn't have enough stopping power for it to matter. The distance scale in 40k is a bit off, but 1" is representitive of 5-10m, that means at minimum a 3" blast template covers a distance of 15m, and there is no way in hell that a shotgun would have a spread that large and be able to do any damage.

They also have next to no armour penetration (as has been mentioned already), which is why their AP is so low. Ask people who have served in the military and they will tell you that shotguns have exellent stopping power against unarmoured targets at close range, but as soo as any sort of armour comes into the equation then their utility is reduced immensely. Against the superior armour of 40k, they would be no use at all.

Currently both weapons in 40k are fairly accurate portrayals of how they actually behave. Anyone that suggests that they should hit on 2's and wound on 2's or be blast weapons with S5 have been playing too many video games.

What if they were Assault 3? I'm pretty sure they're mostly auto-shotguns, not pump action.

M.

Asgeirr Darkwolf wrote:Actually, I think shotguns should be just a little bit better- on scouts, they're almost never worth taking to me. If you want to shoot, botlers are better. To assualt, bolt pistols. easy. So shot guns should have something like this: S: 5 AP: 6 Assault 2, 12'' range. Then I might take 'em.

Why would a .71 caliber or smaller solid slug have S5 when a .75 caliber self-propelled rocket that explodes after penetration only has S4? Using a smaller, nonexplosive bullet means your S goes down, not up.

I like to consider each additional step on the 40k Characteristics scale to be an extra zero. So Heavy 1 is 1-9 shots, Heavy 2 is 10-99 shots, Heavy 3 is 100-999 shots, Heavy 4 is 1000-9999. Obviously this can fall apart, like Blast weaponry, but there you can imagine each blast to be a solid wall of firepower. Likewise the Punisher Cannon is more like Heavy 2(0).

Just my two cents...

The PSP game "Warhammer 40k: Squad Command" is the most origin-respected video game based on Warhammer 40k desktop game universe so far. And in the game, the posted problem is solved by the following settings:

The shotgun is presented as a template weapon, but with shorter but wider template compare to flamer. It's basically (according to scale) a radius 12'', 45 degree pie-slice template. You can hit and wound multiple targets under the template just like flamer.

According to scale I simply can't measure the sniper rifle's range cause it's just too long. The major speciality of sniper rifle presented in the game is precision (um... The most accurate ranged weapon in the game maybe? Once I shot a CSM half a map away through three church window and it still found the mark... Which in comparison bolters can't even get past the first window, and lascannon would hit on the second wall...) and high damage out-put to biotic target. (two shot per CSM...) Don't even think about hurting a tank.

I know they are quite different systems, the "Squad Command" and the desktop, but hope it can throw some light on the topic...