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I would love to see them consolidate, IF I thought they could do it without screwing it up. But hell, I'd love to see the codex idea itself gone on a huge diet. Leave the fluff to a fluffily seperate document that people can purchase if they so choose. They could consolidate all of 40k's rules and regs into a single document then for all I care.

Doubt we'll ever see that, but then doubt the mighty juggernaut that is GW is going to "waste the time" it would need to study the issue and figure out how it wants to approach it. They'll just try to sell us more models for the moment.

Yeah, In my ideal world we'd have

Forces of the Imperium
Marines
Guard
Adeptus forces (mech, arbites etc)
Inquisition and associated
Squats (for those folks with the bits laying about)

Orks
With details to let you play clans / speed freaks etc

Eldar
With craftworld specific sections

Chaos
Cultists, Marines, demons etc

Zenos
Tyranids, Genestealer cults, slann etc

The New Elements
Nekrons, DE, Tau.

That gives us 6 big ish tomes that can be tweaked from time to time. rather than piecemealed. They start now so at the next re-boot all the books are ready for release on day 1. then they start again ready for the next one

but I can see complaints from some folks "Why do I have to pay for stuff I'm never going to use"

I doubt they'd do away with the Codex system.

It's just too effective a sales catalog.

malfred wrote:I doubt they'd do away with the Codex system.

It's just too effective a sales catalog.

I don't know about that. Wouldn't a better sales vehicle be something like the following:

3 tomes:

Imperium of Man with every human army.

Xenos with every non-human army.

Worshippers of the Warp with CSM, Daemons, cults, etc.

What this would do is expand exposure of other armies to the individual player as they're reading the book and seeing what these other armies can do they think, "I could do this if I run out and buy another 20 models" or something. I would think it would be an increase in sales of GWs biggest cash cow, plastic army men.

Sure they make some money off the books now but they could charge an appropriately higher price for the combined books and still make some profit off of it whilst enjoying increased sales.

My 2 cents.

Consolidation is what i'd like to see. As it stands there are so many SM Chapters that have their own book AND the Vanilla SM book that updating is taking a noticable "SM-Other-SM-Other-SM" trend, which I think is ridiculous.

Why should other books suffer (DE, for example took years to get here, GK/SoB aren't here yet, and nor are Necrons, but we've had several incarnations of SM along the way) because BA or SW HAVE to have their own codex?

Whilst I don't think GW will do it (they had the chance with a combined Inquisition book, but it's clear from the more recent rumours that GKs are being released seperately again) for reasons unknown (extra costs? Not enough return? Because they don't wanna?), it seems like the only logical choice if we're to have:

A) Balance (My favourite army here are SW; whilst contemplating them myself, it's hard to get past their "Rune Priest, 3-4x GHs w/ WG + PF/Combi-melta in 3-4 Razorbacks w/ las/plas and 3x 6 LFs w/ 5 MLs + 3 las/plas Razorbacks" army structure that you see absolutely everywhere. It's not the player's fault that it's beastly effective, but for me it hints at GW's attitude to 5th edition; as do the lance spam lists DE have (although they do have more effective variety than SWolves). Anti-mech armies that are, you guessed it, mechanised.)

B) Regular updates. As it stands, there are still a few codices that require bumping up to at least a competative level, and other who just need introducing to 5th edition. Necrons, for example, are shells of their former selves. What can they do in 5th ed? Use a monolith. What are they then? Cheesy. What happens if they don't? They lose. That sounds pretty unfair to me.

Also, as a Tau player, I know that i'm still quite competative against some armies in 5th ed., but the codex is starting to show its age. I remember when I got my Tau book, read through it and tried to find what 'Target Priority' was in the 5th edition rulebook.

Tau and CW Eldar, possibly even CSM aren't going to see any codex revamps until at least 6th Edition at this rate. We're already deep into 5th and with DA and BT still to get re-done, GKs on the way, SoB to be done and Necrons to be done, it's going to be a while. If GW didn't have all the extra baggage, a lot of players would be happier.

I think the amount they have is just about right based on their army list/model line is structured right now.

What I WOULD like to see, however, is more codices that don't necessarily have a unique model line attached to it. So essentially I'd like to see sort of what we had in 3rd edition. New codices that can be used with the existing model line. Like the Craftworld Eldar codex or catachans.

From a business standpoint, I don't know how advantageous that would be for GW, though.

BUT, if it were, I'd like to see another Eldar themed codex (exodites, individual craftworlds, etc), Another IG, Tyranid Genesteeler Cults,etc

Flashman wrote:

Gamble wrote:I think the number of codexes is a hindrance to 40K. The editions have a 5 year +/- life cycle. They release 4-5 books each year and have never updated the entire line in a single edition.

They did in 2nd Edition but at the expense of Squats (I don't think Grey Knights appeared either).

Your statement is true, but mine is as well.

2nd edition introduced the army book concept to 40K and Black Templars, Dark Eldar, Tau and Chaos Demons weren't introduced/ separate books until later editions. Between 2nd and 3rd editions, they dropped 2 factions (squats and genestealer cults) and failed to update Grey Knights.

A random idea I had is that they rework the idea for SM lists a bit.

They produce lists with some gaps for models to fill at some point, but they DO release a codex for it.

The difference is that they would never 'update' the codex, ever again. This would instead be done by a rules pdf update on their website every 5 years or so, which they would draw people's attention to when they release models to fill the gaps.

This would enable them to expand the SM range indefinitely, as they wouldn't need to go back and write an updated book every 5-6 years.

It wouldn't work for other armies though.

It would take quite a lot of the existing armies out of the list, meaning the frequency of updated codexes would be better.

Avatar 720 wrote:Consolidation is what i'd like to see. As it stands there are so many SM Chapters that have their own book AND the Vanilla SM book that updating is taking a noticeable "SM-Other-SM-Other-SM" trend, which I think is ridiculous.

It's really not though. If that were true, we'd have seen a new Dark Angels and Black Templar book by now.

Why should other books suffer (DE, for example took years to get here, GK/SoB aren't here yet, and nor are Necrons, but we've had several incarnations of SM along the way) because BA or SW HAVE to have their own codex?

Fact-checking is important when you make ridiculous statements I hear.
Dark Eldar "took years to get here" simply because of them wanting to find a suitable hole in the release window/profit margins to make a release that could potentially completely bomb. It took alot for Dark Eldar to arrive because they weren't sure if the release would actually be well-received or a complete bomb.

Blood Angels and Space Wolves were using two of the oldest Codexes, before the Space Wolves actually got their own Codex that didn't require you to use Codex: Space Marines and Blood Angels were using a White Dwarf published fandex for all intents and purposes.

Grey Knights are very very likely to be the next release(as in it would be ridiculous if we see something else), Sisters of Battle just started being worked on, and Necrons have been being worked on for quite awhile at this point in time.

Whilst I don't think GW will do it (they had the chance with a combined Inquisition book, but it's clear from the more recent rumours that GKs are being released seperately again) for reasons unknown (extra costs? Not enough return? Because they don't wanna?), it seems like the only logical choice if we're to have:

The reasons aren't actually "unknown". It's a simple thing, if you'd actually stop and think about it.
These "combined" books that people push for? They'd be the bloody size of an Imperial Armour campaign book with rules, fluff, and modeling sections.

A) Balance (My favourite army here are SW; whilst contemplating them myself, it's hard to get past their "Rune Priest, 3-4x GHs w/ WG + PF/Combi-melta in 3-4 Razorbacks w/ las/plas and 3x 6 LFs w/ 5 MLs + 3 las/plas Razorbacks" army structure that you see absolutely everywhere. It's not the player's fault that it's beastly effective, but for me it hints at GW's attitude to 5th edition; as do the lance spam lists DE have (although they do have more effective variety than SWolves). Anti-mech armies that are, you guessed it, mechanised.)

I don't think it hints at GW's attitude, but the players themselves. People(in my experience) are too obsessed with ignoring the ability to play linked campaigns, fun megabattles, and the like. They want tournaments where they win prizes or get bragging rights.

B) Regular updates. As it stands, there are still a few codices that require bumping up to at least a competitive level, and other who just need introducing to 5th edition. Necrons, for example, are shells of their former selves. What can they do in 5th ed? Use a monolith. What are they then? Cheesy. What happens if they don't? They lose. That sounds pretty unfair to me.

Necron players have always used Monoliths to be "super effective"(or at least from my memory). It's always been considered cheesy. This is not exclusive to 5th.

Also, as a Tau player, I know that I'm still quite competitive against some armies in 5th ed., but the codex is starting to show its age. I remember when I got my Tau book, read through it and tried to find what 'Target Priority' was in the 5th edition rulebook.

Again, the "codex starting to show its age" is not exclusive to Xenos codexes. Look at Codex: Dark Angels v. Codex: Space Marines.

Tau and CW Eldar, possibly even CSM aren't going to see any codex revamps until at least 6th Edition at this rate. We're already deep into 5th and with DA and BT still to get re-done, GKs on the way, SoB to be done and Necrons to be done, it's going to be a while. If GW didn't have all the extra baggage, a lot of players would be happier.

Hahaha, no they wouldn't. People would find reasons to whine about, even if GW was handing out money with every army you collect.

Kanluwen wrote:These "combined" books that people push for? They'd be the bloody size of an Imperial Armour campaign book with rules, fluff, and modeling sections

People say this, but to my mind it is untrue. Think of the quantity of overlap in units, generic fluff, etc there are in most SM codexes (for example). As has also been mentioned, perhaps a seperate "rules only" booklet could be used or included for ease of use if the "main" book were too unwieldy.

There's really not that much "generic fluff" that's in most SM codexes though. Unless you're trying to say we should ditch the special characters like Belial and Lysander and replace them with "Generic Marine Hero with Terminator Teleport Assaults".

The overlap of units is also a case where it really only shows up with the Dark Angels/Blood Angels in the "vanilla" list for the Codex.

Whilst he does lean toward overall defence of Games Workshop - no offence - many of the points Kan raises are right.

People keep forgetting GW is a business and therefore needs to operate effectively. If they had all the SM codices in one book, then GW would sell less books and the players would be pissed at having to pay extortionate amounts of money for a book they will only use a 5th of. If people would drop it with the constant Space Marine/Imperium hate then this could be a reasonable debate and thread.

I'd advise remembering that the Space Marines are the most popular army and that the Imperium effectively IS 40K. 40K is based around the woe and danger of the Imperium, it's set in Imperial Space (not that of the numerous other Ork or Tyranid worlds) and much of the background is about... Yep, the Imperium.
As human beings ourselves (I'd hope so anyway), we will naturally connect most with the Imperium and this is one of the reasons why so many people collect Imperial Guard.
Similarly, remember that almost all noted battles and campaigns that take place within 40K involve, yes, the Imperium. I can't recall ever hearing about a long-winded campaign of Tyranids Om Nom Nom-ing on Orks or Chaos invading Ork territory. The closest I can recall is the expansion of the Tau.

As it is, the number of codices is good IMHO. Most are on a similar level in popularity and such a level that their would be 'outrage' (edit: nerdrage) if one of the races was "squatted".
However, as was said earlier, it can be a very long Codex-renewal process. For a business, it makes no sense for GW to keep the codices constantly up-to-date or available on-line. However, many Codices are very old and still have a long time to wait for their updates. Also remember, that GW is also trying maintain WHFB at the same time.

There's REALLY not enough room for more armies (eg. Kroot, Admech) etc. however, Campaign-related (eg. EOT) or add-on books (refer to Codex ____) could work, create short-term popularity (Campaigns) and in the case of Admech, force the player to buy two books.

I believe that SOME Codices should be consolidated into slightly larger, but easier to update books, such as: Angels of Death - Dark Angels/Blood Angels (bit late now considering BA's have been redone) or Forces of Chaos etc.
As someone mentioned earlier, if the Codices were to focus more on supporting the army via list and models, rather than background, then this would also speed up the production process and possibly encourage more BL sales.


It's a tricky balance to maintain considering all the factors:
- Demand as a business
- Need to support WHFB
- Popularity of existing armies (except possibly Daemons)
- Diversity of 40K universe
- Dominance of Imperium
- Limited time/resources etc.

but as flawed as it really is, I believe the current system to be largely OK and/or the lesser of many evils. I do believe that more armies would really do more damage than good though, however add-on books could work well. Ultimately however, the Imperial Forces are too large and dominant to be forced into one codex.

I'd like to see them give a licence to some other manufacturer to produce an entire new 40k army, even as far as giving them a big say on the content of the codex.

Hell no to that.

How many SHOULD they have? I dunno. How many WILL they have? As many as they profitably can.

If people are sick of Space Marine variants getting so much attention, then play an army that ain't a Space Marine variant. Convince your friends to play an army that ain't a Space Marine variant. Convince everybody else who plays to play something that ain't a Space Marine variant. Space Marines are updated more than everybody else because they sell better than everybody else. If they thought releasing a brand new Space Wolf 'dex tomorrow would be better for sales in the long run than not, they'd do it.

Codex creep is, likewise, a sales strategy. They want the game balanced enough to play, but not so balanced that there's not a temptation to jump ship to the next big thing when a codex with cooler toys lands.

42

Seaward wrote:How many WILL they have? As many as they profitably can.

I think this is not necessarily straightforward. Are GW happy about the 10+ year gap between some armies getting an update? From what I gather they would have been happy squating dark eldar, leaving them forever without an update. The problem is though that if they added another 20 SM codexes to the list, all the other armies will suffer. It's why I anticipate after grey knights and black templars they will not release any more stand alone SM codexes.

Overall I'm getting the impression I'm getting is that the problem in the studio is convincing senior managers that any of the old armies are worth redoing at all.

Seaward wrote:
If people are sick of Space Marine variants getting so much attention, then play an army that ain't a Space Marine variant. Convince your friends to play an army that ain't a Space Marine variant. Convince everybody else who plays to play something that ain't a Space Marine variant.

As I said before, the more codexes they have to update the longer it will be for all other armies to be updated, unless they make a real effort to make sure the non SM lists are all redone within say 6 years.

There will be 40 000 armies. 39 995 of them will be Space Marines.

battle Brother Lucifer wrote:I say a codex for every single official space marine chapter. Ever.
One for every ork klan. One for each hive of 'nids. Only one for tau and 'crons.
One for every Eldar...w/e they have. One for DE.
One for each special regiment of IG (including DKoK)
Each part of Witch Hunters and Demon hunters broken up into multiple codexs.
One for each CSM chapter that would need rules
One codex for each God of Chaos. (5 in total )

so....1024 codexs? Fine by me.

keezus wrote:There will be 40 000 armies. 39 995 of them will be Space Marines.

Or 0.39995% of this post will be constructive...

It be best, in my opinion, to have one codex for the vanilla marines, with generic army choices and background, with teaser background towards another book with chapter specific stuff in it... That way, you can still play vanilla marines at a reasonable cost, and move on to another chapter if youre up to it..

I have no clue regarding the others..

snurl wrote:All of them.

Like Button

The king is dead. Long live the king.

The truth is Space Marines will continue being the only faction given any serious face time and marketing effort, everyone else will continue to get table scraps and face slaps.

What it should be is one Space Marine codex, one Imperium codex and possibly an Inquisition codex. Leave the development time and effort to races that actually have a different play style, not a different flavor of bolter/chainsword/power armor.

Maybe some space marine amalgamation to make one super space marine codex covering all the remaining loyalist foundings with variant lists. With custom chapter rules. Put chaos daemons and chaos marines back together but also add traitor guard and chaos cultists to really add variety. Could call it "Forces of chaos". This would cut back on a lot of duplication yet support varied lists. Also I would like Adeptus mechanicus and Ordo Xenos to get their own book ( Or a single Inquisition book containing options for fielding the 3 ordos.).

Grimstonefire wrote:

I read on warseer someone saying in the long term the plan was to split the CSM codex into 4...

Excuse me? Any official word to this? I seriously doubt it, unless they make it:

Thousand sons
Cultists
Chaos Space marines
Renegade space marines

or something...

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Grimstonefire wrote:

I read on warseer someone saying in the long term the plan was to split the CSM codex into 4...

Excuse me? Any official word to this? I seriously doubt it, unless they make it:

Thousand sons
Cultists
Chaos Space marines
Renegade space marines

or something...

You joking?
One codex for Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, and Nurgle

battle Brother Lucifer wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Grimstonefire wrote:

I read on warseer someone saying in the long term the plan was to split the CSM codex into 4...

Excuse me? Any official word to this? I seriously doubt it, unless they make it:

Thousand sons
Cultists
Chaos Space marines
Renegade space marines

or something...

You joking?
One codex for Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, and Nurgle

Well that doesn't make any sense at all. They only have one unit for each god, I seriously doubt they would donate an entire codex to each of them.

That's like games workshop making a codex for assassins, or making a codex for sanctioned psykers.

Squats anyone?

If it's done right i think it should look like this:
1 C:SM
1 C:Chaos (Including Chaos daemons and Chaos Spce Marines)
1 C:Eldar
1 C:Inq (Including all 3 ordos, GK and SoB)
1 C:SW
1 C:BT
1 C:Necrons
1 C:Orks
1 CE
1 C:IG
1 C:Tau
1 C:Tyranid
That's 12 in total. Have i missed any?
The 3 dfferent Space Marine codecii are because they are suppsed to show divergent chapter which BA and DA aren't (Both BA and DA could be done with special characters and a few more units though the SM codex would be big)

Samus_aran115 wrote:

battle Brother Lucifer wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Grimstonefire wrote:

I read on warseer someone saying in the long term the plan was to split the CSM codex into 4...

Excuse me? Any official word to this? I seriously doubt it, unless they make it:

Thousand sons
Cultists
Chaos Space marines
Renegade space marines

or something...

You joking?
One codex for Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, and Nurgle

Well that doesn't make any sense at all. They only have one unit for each god, I seriously doubt they would donate an entire codex to each of them.

That's like games workshop making a codex for assassins, or making a codex for sanctioned psykers.

they would make a bunch of new stuff, and put demons back with CSM