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Given the Eastern European accent, large nose, and confrontational demeanor I think its a fair assessment.

I don't necessarily agree with the Lando characterization, but Watto is definitely a Jewish stereotype.

Hordini wrote:I'm not trying to bust your balls George, but I think Lando has a lot more depth as a character than you're giving him credit for.

So do I, that's why I put a on the end of that sentence.

Hordini wrote:And as for Watto being a Jewish stereotype, I'm not sure I totally get it. Does that just mean every hard-bargaining merchant character is automatically a Jewish stereotype?

Only if they also have a big hooked nose and a Jewish accent.

Watto is often also accused of being an Arab stereotype. In fact, I've heard that accusation far more than the Jewish one.

The Hutts are a stereotype of my mom's side of the family.

Ahtman wrote:Watto is often also accused of being an Arab stereotype. In fact, I've heard that accusation far more than the Jewish one.

I can see merit in both arguments, but my understanding of the Arab stereotype is essentially flowing robes and the name "bin al Saud".

That may not jive with everyone else, of course.


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Khornholio wrote:The Hutts are a stereotype of my mom's side of the family.

Burn yo.

dogma wrote:Given the Eastern European accent, large nose, and confrontational demeanor I think its a fair assessment.

I don't necessarily agree with the Lando characterization, but Watto is definitely a Jewish stereotype.

George Spiggott wrote:

Hordini wrote:And as for Watto being a Jewish stereotype, I'm not sure I totally get it. Does that just mean every hard-bargaining merchant character is automatically a Jewish stereotype?

Only if they also have a big hooked nose and a Jewish accent.

Okay, I guess I can see where you're coming from with that. I might not be as readily able to pick out stereotypes as many of my peers (maybe that's a good thing?) and I kind of forgot about some of the physical features of the Jewish stereotype. That said, now that I think of it, in one of the later prequels, Watto wears a hat that could kind of reinforce that stereotype as well. I'm not sure I would identify his accent as "Eastern European" or "Jewish," but I admit I'm not as familiar with Eastern European accents and languages as I am others.

George Spiggott wrote:

Hordini wrote:I'm not trying to bust your balls George, but I think Lando has a lot more depth as a character than you're giving him credit for.

So do I, that's why I put a on the end of that sentence.

Fair enough, I didn't put as much weight on the as I ought to have.



One thing I'll note in general though, I do think that the prequel films have more characters that could be seen as representations of stereotypes than the original trilogy, in which the aliens are more likely to be truly alien rather than just a clumsy amalgamation of real-world cultural stereotypes.

Yeah, I don't think you'll find much argument there.

Though the original trilogy definitely pushed aliens into the background prior to the 3rd movie, but that may have been a budgetary thing.

dogma wrote:Yeah, I don't think you'll find much argument there.

Though the original trilogy definitely pushed aliens into the background prior to the 3rd movie, but that may have been a budgetary thing.

Yes, that's certainly true. However, even when looking at the few alien characters who do come to the foreground in the original trilogy (even if only briefly), I think it is much more difficult to associate them with stereotypes. It's not an incredible stretch to recognize stereotypical aspects of characters like Jar Jar Binks or Watto, and most of these can be recognized immediately after seeing the character or hearing their accents. Characters like Chewbacca or Jabba the Hutt, on the other hand, tend to defy these easy classifications, and even characters who are only on-screen a short time like Greedo, Bib Fortuna, and Boushh would be more difficult to describe in any stereotypical human terms than characters from the prequel trilogy.

I'm including Boushh, because even though it was actually Leia in disguise, she did a good enough impression and spoke Ubese well enough to fool Jabba's court. In some ways this makes it an even more interesting example, as it's a case of a human trying to act like another species. Perhaps while undercover Leia was trying to act and speak in ways that could be considered stereotypically Ubese, and by extension, something other than stereotypically human?

Interesting, I hadn't considered that. Good point on the Leia/Boushh blend.

I could make an argument that places Chewie as an "other" blend, but that's a significant stretch. Also, its a bad argument.

Mostly I wonder if Lucas' restraint was a financial issue, or a personal issue. Did he include the sort of aliens he did early in his career because he was more egalitarian, or did he do it because he was lacking the monies?

Back to the Ops question: as far as Star Wars goes, Juhani in KOTOR was a lesbian, IIRC.

Was she, I don't recall that and I've played the game 4 times.

No, according to wookiepedia Baron is correct. She was the first apparently.

dogma wrote:Interesting, I hadn't considered that. Good point on the Leia/Boushh blend.

Thanks!

I could make an argument that places Chewie as an "other" blend, but that's a significant stretch. Also, its a bad argument.

I almost didn't include Chewbacca, because I have heard a few somewhat clumsy and rather stretched arguments that he is a stereotyped "other" figure, although I don't agree with any that I've heard. When you get down to it though, most of the alien characters are some form of "other." The question is whether or not they are an "other" figure by taking up aspects of some real-world cultural stereotype, or whether or not they are an "other" figure by nature of their truly alien characteristics.

Recognizing that you consider it a bad argument and therefore I'm assuming you don't support it, I'd be interested to hear your argument that places Chewbacca as an "other" blend. If you'd like to discuss it but you don't feel like posting it publicly, you can feel free to PM me, or even post it on the OT Zone.

Mostly I wonder if Lucas' restraint was a financial issue, or a personal issue. Did he include the sort of aliens he did early in his career because he was more egalitarian, or did he do it because he was lacking the monies?

Yeah, I don't really know. It's quite possible it could be a combination of both, although it certainly seems that while Lucas' funding was more limited in the original trilogy, he could have inserted cultural stereotypes into alien characters if he wanted to. For that matter, he could have done it with the human characters as well. Having said that, if I really had to guess the primary factor, I think the fact that Lucas actually only directed A New Hope and not The Empire Strikes Back or Return of the Jedi, but then ended up directing all of the prequel trilogy is probably the most significant. Perhaps the other directors either helped to tone down stereotypical character types, or simply had a better handle on quality character development than Lucas. Later on, when Lucas took the reins completely in the prequel trilogy, there would be fewer people to temper some of his not-so-good ideas.

Hordini wrote:
Recognizing that you consider it a bad argument and therefore I'm assuming you don't support it, I'd be interested to hear your argument that places Chewbacca as an "other" blend. If you'd like to discuss it but you don't feel like posting it publicly, you can feel free to PM me, or even post it on the OT Zone.

I'm happy to post it here. Without going into an explicit state:

Chewy cannot speak Basic. Chewy is hairy. Chewy is granted inhuman strength. Chewy is bound by an inhuman culture.

Therefore, Chewy is "other". He is all other because his alien nature is emphasized in his relationship with Han.

It isn't very good, but its the best I've seen.

Hordini wrote:
Yeah, I don't really know. It's quite possible it could be a combination of both, although it certainly seems that while Lucas' funding was more limited in the original trilogy, he could have inserted cultural stereotypes into alien characters if he wanted to.

Well, he does stereotype leads. No one will argue that. The question is whether or not he omitted anything for funding purposes.

Of course, there is no definitive answer, I'm just wondering at an odd confluence.

WarOne wrote:



Also, there is implied sexual/deeper affectionate relationships with Spock and Kirk.

I have to disagree. There is this abomination called slashfic though.

Wasn't there a ST:TNG episode where they went to a planet and Riker got it on with a hermaphrodite, or asexual being? I remember it only because it was one of the few episodes where Worf didn't get his butt kicked when fighting someone who wasn't from the ship or a hologram.

Khornholio wrote:Wasn't there a ST:TNG episode where they went to a planet and Riker got it on with a hermaphrodite, or asexual being? I remember it only because it was one of the few episodes where Worf didn't get his butt kicked when fighting someone who wasn't from the ship or a hologram.

Yep, that was an interesting episode for it's time. All of the species were hermaphrodites but secretly some craved to be one gender or the other and the one that took a shine to Riker wanted to be a lady.

It had a very unhappy ending and a good moral message about homophobia and the subjugation of homosexual people by regimes around the world. I thought, for it's time, it was a very strong and well written episode.

There is also the episode when Dr Crusher fell for the male host of a dax like being the host died and was replaced by a female the new host wanted to continue the relationship but the doctor turned her down.

Jar Jar Binks was pretty gay.

Surely C3PO?

He was certainly pretty camp...

No way. He just acts that way to get the chicks.

An intergalactic Gok Wan if you will. (Gok Wan isn't gay you see, he's just found a sure fire way to get his hands on bewbz)

With his gold lamee finish, the "ooh let me polish your helmet" and "Is that a pistol in your holster or are you just pleased to see me, big boy!" catchphrases, there is not a lot to debate for the camp android.

Star Trek has hardly any gay characters even alluded to because certain people don't want it in the show.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexuality_in_Star_Trek#LGBT_in_Star_Trek

Roddenberry had come around to the idea of introducing a gay character but once he died Berman overruled it. Ron Moore wanted to try for a gay character but was shut down. Other people involved have wanted to approach the subject too...it just seems that someone high up doesn't want it in the show. Which is sad IMO. It hardly helps that one of the most openly bisexual characters is Kira's evil Mirror-Universe double, where it appears to be one a few personality traits designed to indicate her perversion/corruption.

Howard A Treesong wrote:Star Trek has hardly any gay characters even alluded to because certain people don't want it in the show.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexuality_in_Star_Trek#LGBT_in_Star_Trek

Roddenberry had come around to the idea of introducing a gay character but once he died Berman overruled it. Ron Moore wanted to try for a gay character but was shut down. Other people involved have wanted to approach the subject too...it just seems that someone high up doesn't want it in the show. Which is sad IMO. It hardly helps that one of the most openly bisexual characters is Kira's evil Mirror-Universe double, where it appears to be one a few personality traits designed to indicate her perversion/corruption.

I thought her principle evil shown in her desire to cop a feel of her light universe self, was her supreme vanity and how appealling it was to be able to actually feth herself.

And yet, given Rodenberry's utopian society intended by Trek (no need for money, people working together etc) I feel an openly gay character would fly in the face of this. Far better that given how few people in the Command Staff actually have partners, to leave it unsaid, having long since ceased to be a problem, or even worth commenting upon.

Big pat on the back right there.

While I understand the reasoning, the actual statement you used confuses me-- why would it fly in the face of it?

Just having an openly gay character wouldn't fly in the face of it. Making an issue about it would.

Maybe, in the future, more gay people have outgrown having to behave like flamboyant, attention-seeking drama queens.

Just thinking out loud here. Maybe they just show up to Starfleet and do their jobs and not make a big deal out of it.

I haven't met many homosexuals that go out of their way to be flamboyant. Most often they simply behave differently from others, and that is taken as "flaunting" their sexuality. This irritates homosexual people because heterosexuals flaunt their sexuality every bit as much, we straight folk simply don't notice it because it is the norm.

I mean, sure, homosexuals will be highly extroverted in public when socializing. Heterosexual people often do this as well. But when was the last time you saw a guy go to work in leather chaps and a g-string?

That's kind of my point.

If you're running the helm of a Federation Vessel, who gives a damned if you're gay if you're doing it correctly?

Mr Mystery wrote:And yet, given Rodenberry's utopian society intended by Trek (no need for money, people working together etc) I feel an openly gay character would fly in the face of this. Far better that given how few people in the Command Staff actually have partners, to leave it unsaid, having long since ceased to be a problem, or even worth commenting upon.

Except that they actually showed characters having relationships on the show, and it wouldn't have been flaunting it or anything, just showing the relationship of a homosexual character just as they often showed the relastionships of heterosexual characters.

Thing is, it's been a long time since Star Trek was actually, you know, good. Back when it was good, up until the end of DS9 basically, homosexuality was a lot more contraversial than it is now. As people have noted, DS9 tested the waters with Dax kissing that girl*, and people freaked out over that - imagine if TNG had had a gay character?

And we shouldn't pretend Trek ever did anything but play it safe. Sure, they had a nicely cosmopolitan crew, but even though the show had no hang ups about inter-species breeding, when Geordi finally got to make out with an alien, it was still a black alien.


*That the episode was more about transgenderism, and loving someone regardless of gender change, actually made it an impressively brave episode to run, and it wasn't even as preachy as Star Trek so often is.

I think we have discovered the best reason to be a space sailor instead of a regular sailor: no seamen jokes.