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I honestly think that Wraiths are the most unjustifiable unit in the necron codex. Thley are a close combat unit without power weapons, and they suffer from the same problem that thousands sons tend to, i.e. dont focus on their inv, just direct streams of boltgun fire their way, and they will go down.

Inv save or not, at T4 they are just too easy to gun down.

Destroyers on the other hand, can stay a cosy 36" away, and rain down S6 shots all day. Arguably just as inneffective vs MEQ, but at least they'd be 36" away!

Norbu the Destroyer wrote:Ive had success mixing the two units. Put 6 wraiths together with destroyer lord as an offensive wing, and a unit of 4-5 destroyers to move behind for fire support. The wraiths provide cover saves to the destroyers from majority of angles. I ran destroyers all the time, but with mech guard out there....I had to come up with a way to get at the gunlines, and wraiths is what I decided to use. Scarabs supporting a lord can work, but against some armies the unit is worthless.

If either the destroyers or wraiths could take larger units they would be a lot more devestating. If the fast attack selections spread out it would also be good for the Crons.

Yeah I think Wraith Wings are a much bigger deal than destroyers, the Wraith Wing is the very best thing Necrons have to offer.

Honestly I prefer Immortals over Destroyers. 9x Immortals VS 5x Destroyers. Equal in point values.

Shooting at a T5 Target.
Immortals: 18shots. - Average of 12 hits. - Average of 6 wounds.
Destroyers: 15shots. - Average of 10 hits. - Average of 6.66 wounds.

Shooting at a T4 target.
Immortals: 18shots. - Average of 12 hits. - Average of 8 wounds.
Destroyers: 15shots. - Average of 10 hits. - Average of 8.33 wounds.

Shooting at a T3 target.
Immortals: 18shots. - Average of 12 hits. - Average of 10 wounds.
Destroyers: 15shots. -Average of 10 hits. - Average of 8.33 wounds.

Alright so as expected against T5 and T4 targets the Destroyers are minimally superior at inflicting wounds (a total of 1 (.66+.33)). But at T3 targets the Immortals are better by 1.66 wounds.
Yes the destroyers move faster and have a range advantage.
Immortals have almost twice as many models for the points, meaning its much harder to kill the squad and it counts to more Necrons towards your phase out. Which in my opinion can be more valuable than mobility and range.
Immortals take up an extremely expendable Elite slot, where the Destroyers take up precious fast attack slot which can instead be used to create a very powerful wraith wing.

It all comes down to preference but I really think people overlook Immortals because they don't look at the big picture.


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liam0404 wrote:I honestly think that Wraiths are the most unjustifiable unit in the necron codex. Thley are a close combat unit without power weapons, and they suffer from the same problem that thousands sons tend to, i.e. dont focus on their inv, just direct streams of boltgun fire their way, and they will go down.

Inv save or not, at T4 they are just too easy to gun down.

Destroyers on the other hand, can stay a cosy 36" away, and rain down S6 shots all day. Arguably just as inneffective vs MEQ, but at least they'd be 36" away!

Small arms fire is the Wraith Wings big weakness, but being able to move through terrain at jet-bike speed means if you know how to play your WW than you can easily outflank your opponent. Besides these things are designed to take out targets like Terminators and other power house units. Even against orks, they can fly in there and rip up a squad of 30 ork boyz. Obviously their is a huge point difference between ork boyz and a WW but it just shows they don't have to be afraid of numbers in CC. Even an IG power blob would be devastated in CC by the WW.

liam0404 wrote:I honestly think that Wraiths are the most unjustifiable unit in the necron codex. Thley are a close combat unit without power weapons, and they suffer from the same problem that thousands sons tend to, i.e. dont focus on their inv, just direct streams of boltgun fire their way, and they will go down.

Inv save or not, at T4 they are just too easy to gun down.

Destroyers on the other hand, can stay a cosy 36" away, and rain down S6 shots all day. Arguably just as inneffective vs MEQ, but at least they'd be 36" away!

Yes, and ignore the monoliths and just phase out the army. Famous Necron advice everywhere. What you are missing is that you don't GET to fire your boltguns at the wraiths. They have a potential 42" assault range. My wraiths are generally in one of three places.

#1. Where you can't range them.
#2. Where you can't see them (behind monoliths)
#3. In assault with you.

And my warriors.....are in reserve. As long as possible. And then they sneak on a table edge into cover and hide. Far away from your bolt guns. Until I need them on an objective, then I teleport them around the board to be where I need them. Here's some more fun math for you. Do you realize that when Wraiths assault ork boyz....it takes 72 attacks on average to kill and keep down a single wraith? And unless all nine of those wraiths go down at the same time (an obscenely difficult feat to accomplish), they're still in the fight.

My wraiths will pretty much *always* get to decide where to fight. What to assault. What to take on. And I get to keep jumping out of combat, to re-assault somewhere else. Potentially 42" away. You don't GET to shoot me. You don't GET to dump all your units into my wraiths to try shooting them down. They *will* eat you.

I'm maybe having a necron knowledge fail, but how can you assault 42"? Multiple monolith teleport? Is that allowed?

No, you can't teleport through multiple monoliths. Just do the math on the pieces involved in teleportation, movement, assaulting and range allowances.

Hmmm...

Keeping the warriors in reserve for nearly an entire game.
Never actually thought of that one.

But do they have to come through the Monolith portal on the turn you roll for them???

Dashofpepper wrote:No, you can't teleport through multiple monoliths. Just do the math on the pieces involved in teleportation, movement, assaulting and range allowances.

The only problem with this I see, is that a Wraith wing is multiple units of 3 wraiths. So only three could teleport per monolith.

I'd like to see some actual competitive battle reports on these Necrons you're so proud of, Dash.

The few that I have seen... well... they weren't really the best demonstrations is really the nicest way I could put it. I'd love to see your list go up against IG, Space Wolves or even Horde Orks for that matter. Then you'll have a lot easier of a time explaining why Wraiths are allegedly so much better than Destroyers.

Just my two cents. Necrons have a really hard time in CC, wraiths with their lack of armor-ignoring CCWs are no exception.

The C'Tan are good, and Monolith spam is a rock that gets boned hard by Ork or IG paper.

I think a destroyer heavy necron list would perform well against horde orks. if you're playing against a competent MEQ or IG player who knows what They're doing, then they will always beat you. I think that wraiths are laughable in the face of other dedicated combat specialists, and I say this as a necron player. That's why its better to play to their strengths, by taking units like destroyers and immortals.

liam0404 wrote:I think that wraiths are laughable in the face of other dedicated combat specialists, and I say this as a necron player. That's why its better to play to their strengths, by taking units like destroyers and immortals.

Fifteen Destroyers with the Deceiver is actually a pretty nasty army at any points level.

Monster Rain wrote:I'd like to see some actual competitive battle reports on these Necrons you're so proud of, Dash.

The few that I have seen... well... they weren't really the best demonstrations is really the nicest way I could put it. I'd love to see your list go up against IG, Space Wolves or even Horde Orks for that matter. Then you'll have a lot easier of a time explaining why Wraiths are allegedly so much better than Destroyers.

Just my two cents. Necrons have a really hard time in CC, wraiths with their lack of armor-ignoring CCWs are no exception.

The C'Tan are good, and Monolith spam is a rock that gets boned hard by Ork or IG paper.

Dude Wraiths are some of the best CC units in the game. The WW is heavy in points but for good reason. Here I'll mathhammer a few examples.

Wraith Wing:
1x Destroyer Lord. Phase Shifter, Res Orb, Warscythe.
3x Wraith
3x Wraith
3x Wraith

VS


Ork Boyz:
29 Boyz. Choppa Slugga.
1 Nob. Power Claw.

The Wraiths Charge the Boyz, attacking first with their initiative 6.
36 attacks, - an average of 18 hits, - an average of 15 wounds. The Ork Boyz will fail an average of 12.5 armor saves.
D-Lord's 4 attacks. - an average of 2.66 hits. - an average of 1.77 wounds. 1.77 Ork Boyz Dead.

So that's 14 (14.27) dead Orkz on the charge. I'll round down for the orkz.

15 Ork boyz strike back, 45 attacks. - an average of 22.5 hits, an average of 7.5 wounds. The Wraiths will fail an average of 2.5 armor saves.
1 Nob, 4 attacks. - an average of 2 hits, - and an average of 1.66 wounds. The Wraiths will fail an average of .55 invulnerable saves.

So that's 3 Wraiths down, and 14 ork boyz dead. The Orkz lost CC but are still fearless, so they take 11 armor saves. They will fail roughly 9 of those saves.

So, 3 wraiths down that will have a 50% chance to get back up, and another 50% chance if they decide to teleport through a monolith. That's a 75% chance that a single Wraith will die from that round of murder, I mean close combat.
With an entire Ork Boy squad down to 1 Nob and 6 boyz who will lose the next round of CC horribly. Obviously their are things to think about in terms of other orkz charging them now, but for the sake of simplicity lets just keep the fights isolated and assume the person using the WW made a logical and tactical choice.



Alright lets try something a little easier.

10 Terminators with Power Fists against the WW.

The Wraiths Charge the Terminators, attacking first with their initiative 6.
36 attacks, - an average of 18 hits, - an average of 15 wounds. The Terminators fail an average of 2.5 saves.
D-Lord's 4 attacks. - an average of 2.66 hits. - an average of 1.77 wounds. 1.77 Terminators dead with no invulnerable saves allowed.

So thats 4 (4.27) dead terminators.

6 Terminators, 12 attacks, an average of 6 hits, and an average of 5 wounds. The Wraiths will fail an average of 1.66 invulnerable saves. Lets say 2 since their would have been a couple of attacks on the Lord. So 1 wraith down and 1 wound off the lord.
So the Terminators lost CC by 2 wounds, and that 1 wraith down will again have a 50% chance to get back up, and if the Necron player is audacious enough he can give it a second chance to get back up.

I hope this gives you an idea of the potential of a Wraith Wing.

Why are you assuming that all of the wraiths get to charge the same mob?

And what happens after all nine wraiths go into that mob and run it down and the rest of the ork army charges them? Or what happens when the wraiths kill off that terminator squad and the marines with their bolters come over to say "how do you do?"

I think you know the answer.

-edit miss post.


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Monster Rain wrote:Why are you assuming that all of the wraiths get to charge the same mob?

And what happens after all nine wraiths go into that mob and run it down and the rest of the ork army charges them? Or what happens when the wraiths kill off that terminator squad and the marines with their bolters come over to say "how do you do?"

I think you know the answer.

So what, since you can come up with a counter then that renders the Wraith Wing completely useless in any general form?
This is a game based on probability and countering, thus saying the Wraith Wing isn't unstoppable is only acknowledging that the game has balance to it.
Trying to create a more in-depth scenario means that we both can keep adding to the equation, which is stupid because it will never end, and is impossible to predict in a probable sense.
Unfortunately the only way to check a units effectiveness without playing an actual game is to do the math on paper.
Seeing that a fight is one sided like the ones I exemplified above, means only that if Logically and Tactically sound you can use the knowledge of probability to your advantage. Which is how the game is played by competent players.
Do not deny the proof in front of you by conjuring extra variables to the situation. That is nonsensical and irrelevant to my examples.


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Anyway to get back on topic, I don't think Destroyers are worth it in accordance to the way I play my Necrons. I play much more aggressively by diversifying my force to have close combat and shooty potential. I think Immortals are much more suited for the role, conveniently because a Wraith Wing can lower your Necron model count and take up 3 fast attack slots. To each their own but I strongly recommend trying my approach if you're a Necron player.

Puscifer wrote: blah blah blah

You wrote all that out to tell everyone the Necron units are over-priced? Well aint that a revelation...

You can't even compare Destroyers to Immortals. Immortals are good but they have the problem with all of the footslogging Necrons. Slow and no transports. Those Immortals have better guns but in CC they are Necron Warriors with an extra toughness and go down just as fast. Destroyers are jetbikes they move 12" then shoot and turboboost when necessary to get away from CC

General_Chaos wrote:

Puscifer wrote: blah blah blah

You wrote all that out to tell everyone the Necron units are over-priced? Well aint that a revelation...

But he is right at that. We need an update, until then our full potential is still dormant.

LordofSteel wrote:-Do not deny the proof in front of you by conjuring extra variables to the situation. That is nonsensical and irrelevant to my examples.

Having more than the units involved in the equation on the table is a nonsensical variable?

Yes, 9 wraiths will own a mob of boyz and then what? This is where tactics and mathhammer intersect, my man.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/261534.page

Here is a battle report where I took CC Crons vs. Redbeard at a tourney in Chicago. I was the third game. I also wrote up the entire tourney from my prospective, but his report had pics. Not concrete proof or anything but Ill let you read the report to see how a 6 man wraith unit with a destroyer lord did against a Nurgle deamon army.

From my prespective
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/261612.page

Norbu the Destroyer wrote:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/261534.page

Here is a battle report where I took CC Crons vs. Redbeard at a tourney in Chicago. I was the third game. I also wrote up the entire tourney from my prospective, but his report had pics. Not concrete proof or anything but Ill let you read the report to see how a 6 man wraith unit with a destroyer lord did against a Nurgle deamon army.

That was pretty sick!

Do you think that maybe your Wraiths performed above what can reasonably be expected though? I mean, the GUO by itself should have taken a while.

Yes to a degree. The GUO had a couple wounds from the Pariah. Also, keep in mind the Lord attached to the squad also has a warscythe so Deamons get no save. Wouldnt be much, but 1 wound from the Scythe plus the 24 S6 wraith attacks would put down a big creature in two melee phases.

When the monsters swung back, everything I had was invul saves, with WBB so it stuck around. Then you have to add in Combat resolution and you have a squad that can deal out soem punishment, power weapons or not. Same reason the guard kill so many things at range, they have piles of S5 and S6 that is high AP. They force LOTS of saves. Same theory with wraithwing, and the Lord puts it over the top for that crucial wound or 2.

Monster Rain wrote:

LordofSteel wrote:-Do not deny the proof in front of you by conjuring extra variables to the situation. That is nonsensical and irrelevant to my examples.

Having more than the units involved in the equation on the table is a nonsensical variable?

Yes, 9 wraiths will own a mob of boyz and then what? This is where tactics and mathhammer intersect, my man.

Wrong, this is where tactics and mathhammer coincide.

Just to refresh things here, my Mathhammer of a single round of CC was not to prove to you that it will win you the game. It was to elaborate on your notion -

Monster Rain wrote:Just my two cents. Necrons have a really hard time in CC, wraiths with their lack of armor-ignoring CCWs are no exception.

So yes, adding irrelevant variables to my example was nonsensical.

I give a basic example of Wraiths in CC and you make up a scenario where the Wraiths attack was a poor tactic. That doesn't prove anything. And it especially doesn't prove that the Wraiths have a hard time in CC, which obviously was my point.

O_o

So then what was the point of the Mathhammer you posted in the first place? To show that they tear through Slugga Boyz?

Fine then. So what? In a perfectly concocted scenario they'll waste them. Sure. It doesn't mean that Wraith Wing is a competitive build.

Monster Rain wrote:O_o

So then what was the point of the Mathhammer you posted in the first place? To show that they tear through Slugga Boyz?

Fine then. So what?

Are you not reading my posts?

LordofSteel wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:O_o

So then what was the point of the Mathhammer you posted in the first place? To show that they tear through Slugga Boyz?

Fine then. So what?

Are you not reading my posts?

I did. I edited it to be more clear..

LordofSteel wrote:6 Terminators, 12 attacks, an average of 6 hits, and an average of 5 wounds. The Wraiths will fail an average of 1.66 invulnerable saves. Lets say 2 since their would have been a couple of attacks on the Lord. So 1 wraith down and 1 wound off the lord.
So the Terminators lost CC by 2 wounds, and that 1 wraith down will again have a 50% chance to get back up, and if the Necron player is audacious enough he can give it a second chance to get back up.

I hope this gives you an idea of the potential of a Wraith Wing.

wow a 579 point unit vs. a 240 now that's a good example

Why don't you even this up with 10 Assault Terminators with TH/SS lead by Lysander then do the math or maybe my Terminator Librarian with Null Zone. Both are common units I run in my Codex Marine list. When I punk out your Lord it's game over. That's the problem with Wraith wing once you take down the rez orb it's game over.

The point of my math hammer was to prove to you that they don't struggle in close combat, which according to you they do.
It seems like you want me to prove to you that they can't be stopped, which is something I cannot do.

Wraiths weakness is having to roll many armor saves, this means that weaker attacks in larger numbers are far better than stronger attacks in smaller numbers. Ork boyz are weak attacks in large numbers.
If you want me to do the math of them getting shot at, all it will show is that they are going to get hurt since they are a CC unit they aren't going to fire back.
You can say that about any CC unit, "after it wins a round of CC my army just shoots the crap out of it and its dead. Therefor they aren't effective in games." Or how about a big wall that blocks line of sight of any incoming fire, or is that a nonsensical variable for in-game terms?

LordofSteel wrote:The point of my math hammer was to prove to you that they don't struggle in close combat, which according to you they do.

What you showed me was that a combination of four units can take down one squad of approximately 1/3 the cost without regard to tactics.

Even the points up and try again.


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LordofSteel wrote:You can say that about any CC unit, "after it wins a round of CC my army just shoots the crap out of it and its dead. Therefor they aren't effective in games." Or how about a big wall that blocks line of sight of any incoming fire, or is that a nonsensical variable for in-game terms?

Yeah, I suppose you could, not that that was really what I was doing.

I guess that's why equations in a vacuum aren't the best way to decide on a unit's effectiveness.

General_Chaos wrote:

LordofSteel wrote:6 Terminators, 12 attacks, an average of 6 hits, and an average of 5 wounds. The Wraiths will fail an average of 1.66 invulnerable saves. Lets say 2 since their would have been a couple of attacks on the Lord. So 1 wraith down and 1 wound off the lord.
So the Terminators lost CC by 2 wounds, and that 1 wraith down will again have a 50% chance to get back up, and if the Necron player is audacious enough he can give it a second chance to get back up.

I hope this gives you an idea of the potential of a Wraith Wing.

wow a 579 point unit vs. a 240 now that's a good example

Why don't you even this up with 10 Assault Terminators with TH/SS lead by Lysander then do the math or maybe my Terminator Librarian with Null Zone. Both are common units I run in my Codex Marine list. When I punk out your Lord it's game over. That's the problem with Wraith wing once you take down the rez orb it's game over.

If you want to add Special characters that's fine with me, and TH/SS isn't going to do anything better since the wraiths attacks don't ignore armor and the Lords attacks ignore armor and inv saves.

What is the idea that you guys have about what I'm saying? You think I'm saying its unbeatable, yes their are units it will lose to in CC. I think that's a given for everything.
I merely gave an example of it destroying 200 points of Orks while losing 0-41 points of wraiths, in the sole purpose to prove that they can be effective in Close Combat.

LordofSteel wrote:What is the idea that you guys have about what I'm saying? You think I'm saying its unbeatable, yes their are units it will lose to in CC. I think that's a given for everything.

I'm of the opinion that Wraiths aren't good enough at CC to base your entire army off of the Wraith Wing build, that's all.

I don't think they're bad, but they're not the equal of Destroyers by any stretch when it comes to their usefulness. Destroyers put Strength 6 hits on the same units that wraiths would be assaulting from 36 inches away, and are tougher. I like them better, YMMV.

Monster Rain wrote:
What you showed me was that a combination of four units can take down one squad of approximately 1/3 the cost without regard to tactics.

Even the points up and try again.

it Destroyed 200 points of Orkz while losing 0-41 points of wraiths, which means the same Wraith wing could do it again (theoretically it could do it indefinitely). I find that to be impressive and extremely valuable in games. Especially as someone who plays Necrons against Orkz very often.

To be honest, the Destroyer-Lord did just about nothing he is only there because he is part of the Wraith Wing. He alone is worth as much as the Ork blob, but he wasn't a necessity to win the fight.

Fine, ill re-do it against equal points, I honestly doubt this will change your mind.

LordofSteel wrote:If you want to add Special characters that's fine with me, and TH/SS isn't going to do anything better since the wraiths attacks don't ignore armor and the Lords attacks ignore armor and inv saves.

Figured I would just even up the points to make it "fair". TH/SS is just a common unit you would face in a game.