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..IIRC they lean towards "muses" ( or something like that ) which seemed to be.... hmm.... "Patron Saints" almost I guess.

But I think the thing that people are missing is that it's perhaps a bit more involved than simply owning/stealing a body for the Avatar. That can't be that hard, hell follow Marneus Calgar around and you'll pick up a few I'm sure. It's not a machine that one simply switches on or off but is really more of a symbiotic device that is both influenced and [b]influences[/i] the Eldar.

Ultimately, could it happen ? Well of course, it's really just a question of how you wish or want to fudge it. I would suggest that one is missing the point, or the essential character more pertinently perhaps, of the army if you wish to do so however.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Draglide12 wrote:It would take all of Commoragh to take down one craftworld? If all of Commoragh united and declared war they could destroy any other force in the Imperium. They never will of course, but Commoragh is singularly massive and contains likely hundreds of billions af various dark eldar and haemonculus creations.

An slight exaggeration I'm sure. Commoragh is described as (basically) a sprawling, monstrosity of a space port. In all likelihood it's comparable to a (large) human Hive City. And it must also be considered that they need space to house their captives (even when packed like tinned sardines). Such a large sprawling mass in the webway could likely house several billions of Dark Eldar. But hundreds of billions of Eldar is certainly taking it too far. Even if all the Kabals were to unite, it's unlikely they would pose a greater threat to any race in galaxy than the combined might of the Craftworlds.

Indeed, they seemed to struggle against an ad hoc Space Marine battleforce fighting within the city! I would say that that Commoragh united is no more impressive than a united Craftworld. Which is to say quite powerful but also very vulnerable in its own ways and certainly no match for any significant combined Imperial force/ tyrannid hive fleet/ Orc wauugh,/etc. (though they may be able to take out their attacker in the process of being eradicated). Which is probably why they take such pains to remain hidden

From the Codex

As far as the Dark Eldar are concerned, the Eldar gods died in the Fall, and they despise them for it.That the gods had become so weak that they could be consumed by the ascendancy of the Eldar's collective depravity is a sign that they did not deserve to exist in the first place. The exceptions are Khaine, who is still held in high regard in Commorragh, and the lesser powers known as the Dark Muses -- they who epitomise carnal and selfish vice, and whose clandestine worship contributed to the demise of the original Eldar gods.

reds8n wrote:

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote: I've seen nothing that says that the Dark Eldar stopped worshiping their gods

You need to have a flick through the new codex.

Given your last quote I'm not sure if this is in support or opposition to the idea?

I find the concept interesting and the story potential is very high. My exodites have an Avatar of Khaine, with the Worldspirit filling the same role as the Infinity Circuit in a Craftworld. While I agree that the Dark Eldar would have issues in regards to psycho-activity, I'm sure there are arcane rites and rituals that can act in place of raw psychic power - the reference to Dark Elf Wyche's Couldron of Blood or the capture and torture of CW eldar (in realspace) being an perfect example.

The entire eldar race might have psychic potential, but that means nothing. A psyker can be anywhere from incredibly weak to incredibly strong, and there's very little-- possibly even no-- reason for us to believe that the Dark Eldar use strong psykers as anything other than food to feed Slaanesh.

Thank you for reinforcing exactly what I've said.

If anyone can point out where it says that a powerfull psyker is needed to summon the Avatar I'm all ears.

Untill then the only mentioning of psychic activity in the summoning is that the statue is awakened by the collective battle lust which is resonated by the psychic trait of the Eldar which does not require a powerfull psyker. The same trait present in the Dark Eldar that would resonate just the same as in the Craftworld Eldar.

If all that is needed then is a collective battle lust, you might have a problem. Ussually Dark Eldar aren't known for fighting just for the sake of fighting (neither are CE Eldar, but in the presence of Khaine they can be). Would it be safe to say that the required battle lust of the Dark Eldar might be weighed down with the inevitable thirst of for slaves, prisoners and theft that is so often the goal of these raids?

Really, now we're discussing about if the Dark Eldar would feel the same battle lust as the Craftworld Eldar. I really don't mean to seem rude so I apologise if this comes across wrong (really I do) but are you guys just grasping for reasons as to why a Dark Eldar Avatar coulden't exist?

Regardless of the enemy battle is battle, battle lust be it cause by the thrill of a raid or open war is still battle lust. The fluff supports that the Dark Eldar could sommon an Avatar of Khaine with no fluff outright condeming it. And any issue that's been presented to obstruct the process has been bipassed with reasonable examples.

In short I personally think my question has been answered, though of course everyone is free to continue discussing the subject

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:If anyone can point out where it says that a powerfull psyker is needed to summon the Avatar I'm all ears.

Don't get flippant with me. I'm merely stating a fact about 40k. No need tto act like you're taking this personally.

Regardless, they need the psychic reverberations of the infinity circuit and the craftworld that contains it IIRC, which, while it might not be beyond the ability of Dark Eldar, certainly would require a level of coordination rarely seen in them.

And I would appreciate it if you wouldn't assume you know anything about my intentions or personal state of being through one simple sentence

Imbad, not to be rude, but it seems that you're quite unwilling to listen to the people in this thread, who have many sources (The new DE codex, codex Eldar, etc.)

However, in all honesty, I could see it work. A massive Kabal/Wych Cult dedicated to Khaine could have attacked a small craftworld to summon the Avatar, though I'd expect the Avatar to be summoned by the defenders, you could state that the small craftworld was easily overrun, or maybe the Dark Eldar had some sort of psychic resonator, amplifying their nascent psychic abilities into a form acceptable to the Avatar, and sacrifice some random Exarch taken captive. And of course the Avatar would want blood, and not really care how it reaps it.

However, my only major problem with this explanation is the whole concept of maintaining the Avatar without it turning back to stone/iron after battle, or how it wouldn't recognize that it's no longer on a craftworld. Also, what would you have it count as?

Toeko wrote:and in order to awaken the Avatar you need the whole craftwords rage along with "a young king".

The young king Sacrifices himself to awaken the avatar.

I don't think the Dark Eldar are capable of Noble acts such as this.

no, but they would certainly sacrifice someone else's king! a dark avatar would accept such a sacrifice.

there's also no reason taht the dark eldar couldn't create some kind of dark arcana machine that could generate a dark avatar. it's a fantasy game, the beautiful thing about fantasy is that you can make whatever sh*t up you want and it doesn't have to make any sense at all.

I am completly open to listening to people.

But when counter arguments given can be counter argued against in turn I'll do it (I blame my high school debate class). That dosen't mean I'm taking things personaly (as some people suggest), it just means that if there isn't something that absolutly 100% discredits an idea (especially my own) I won't let it go or stop supporting it at the first suggestion that it won't work.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:I am completly open to listening to people.

But when counter arguments given can be counter argued against in turn I'll do it (I blame my high school debate class). That dosen't mean I'm taking things personaly (as some people suggest), it just means that if there isn't something that absolutly 100% discredits an idea (especially my own) I won't let it go or stop supporting it at the first suggestion that it won't work.

More than anything I think we are just ensuring you go about it the right way. Yes its possible. Its just not possible doing it the same way craftworlders do it. That would be boring and unimaginitive/unorigional anyway.

Exactly it's process of elimination of how it could not happen. so far there hasen't been a reason that coulden'e be eliminated

Couple of reasons I don't think this is a good idea.

1. Dark Eldar don't believe that something can protect their souls - since the day of Slaneesh' birth, "She Who Thirsts" has been slowly draining their souls - which is why they torture and cause pain - it restores their souls. If blood is pumping out of your ripped artery, believing in God won't stop it from spurting out. =p

2. Dark Eldar have only disdain for the Eldar Gods. They consider them weak and undeserving of woship - which makes the DE having anything to do with one of them rather futile doesn't it?

By draining the souls of others they're protecting their own souls right?

reds8n provided a quote from the new DE codex that actually supports that the DE still do worship Khaine.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Really, now we're discussing about if the Dark Eldar would feel the same battle lust as the Craftworld Eldar. I really don't mean to seem rude so I apologise if this comes across wrong (really I do) but are you guys just grasping for reasons as to why a Dark Eldar Avatar coulden't exist?

Regardless of the enemy battle is battle, battle lust be it cause by the thrill of a raid or open war is still battle lust. The fluff supports that the Dark Eldar could sommon an Avatar of Khaine with no fluff outright condeming it. And any issue that's been presented to obstruct the process has been bipassed with reasonable examples.

In short I personally think my question has been answered, though of course everyone is free to continue discussing the subject

Mate, if you'd read any of my previous posts you would have seen that I was supporting the idea. I was merely thinking out loud regarding the obvious conflicted nature of the Dark Eldar psyche, when a Craftworld Avatar is summoned the entire Craftworld (even the citizens) are caught up in an unexpected wave of bloodlust and anger at a single threat whereas the Dark Eldar are never so united even within their own Kabal (and are furthered weighed down by lust for more base activites, and how this would either hinder their ability to summon the Avatar or make it appear and act differently.

Dashofpepper wrote:Couple of reasons I don't think this is a good idea.

1. Dark Eldar don't believe that something can protect their souls - since the day of Slaneesh' birth, "She Who Thirsts" has been slowly draining their souls - which is why they torture and cause pain - it restores their souls. If blood is pumping out of your ripped artery, believing in God won't stop it from spurting out. =p

How does this work for Incubi, given their silent stoic disposition and refusal to revel in the pain and carnage they inflict?

2. Dark Eldar have only disdain for the Eldar Gods. They consider them weak and undeserving of woship - which makes the DE having anything to do with one of them rather futile doesn't it?

I believe Khaine is an exception to this. Additionally, Harlequins are also tolerated so the Laughing God must at least be acknowledged, if not followed.

Can I also raise the question as to whether every single Craftworld has an Avatar? And how did they get there?

The Avatar needs the psychic power of a large number of Eldar to be awoken (pg24 Eldar Codex, pg340 Path of the Warrior).

Dark Eldar psychic potential has become atrophied (pg5 Dark Eldar Codex).

The Dark Eldar may not have powerfull psykers but they are still psykers ergo the psychic power needed by a large number of Eldar still exists. I've read the codex to and it says nothing about a power level simply that the collective battle lust awakens the Avatar and if anyone has a battle lust it's the Dark Eldar. Since the codex is the #1 source of fluff it over rides anything made in a Black Library publication.


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@Emperors Faithfull: The codex says that after Khaines battle with Slaanesh Khaine was shattered into shards and forced out of the warp where each of these shards ended up in a wraithbone chamber within each craftworld and took the form of an Iron statue.

There is no mention of how many shards there are or how many craftworlds there are. Heck Commoragh (or however it's spelled) could have at one point been a craftworld for all we know. And there is no mentioning of if the shards went directly to the craftworlds or had to be brought there by the craftworld itself.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:But considering that Craftworlds can be destroyed (and that one was even sucked into the Eye of Terror) it actually woulden't be that big of a block for the DE to step over.

It's a huge block, if the craftworld is an essential part of what makes that fragment of Khaine into an Avatar...

The fluff says and I quote "Each fragment ULTIMATELY came to rest within the wraithbone core of a craftworld, where it took root and grew into an Avatar of the Bloody-handed God." That means that the Avatars wern't always within the Craftworlds.

Er... no, it means that before settling into the Craftworlds, they were just drifting bits of God. Each fragment only became an avatar once planted in a Craftworld... and is intrinsically linked to that Craftworld... which suggests that if the Craftworld is destroyed, the Avatar goes with it.

insaniak wrote:

The fluff says and I quote "Each fragment ULTIMATELY came to rest within the wraithbone core of a craftworld, where it took root and grew into an Avatar of the Bloody-handed God." That means that the Avatars wern't always within the Craftworlds.

Er... no, it means that before settling into the Craftworlds, they were just drifting bits of God. Each fragment only became an avatar once planted in a Craftworld... and is intrinsically linked to that Craftworld... which suggests that if the Craftworld is destroyed, the Avatar goes with it.

Considering that though, is it really unreasonable to assume that one of these fragments either made their way to Commoragh (unlikely given it's place in the Webway) or was picked up by a Dark Eldar ship and brought back? Why would Craftworld Eldar be the only ones deemed fit to posses a fragment?

I would agree with you that stealing an Avatar from a Craftworld (or destroying the Craftworld to get to it) now seems a lot less plausible.

insaniak wrote:

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:But considering that Craftworlds can be destroyed (and that one was even sucked into the Eye of Terror) it actually woulden't be that big of a block for the DE to step over.

It's a huge block, if the craftworld is an essential part of what makes that fragment of Khaine into an Avatar...

Who says it's the craftworld that's an essential part of turning it into a statue? The fluff says that it turned into a statue when it reached the Craftworld it dosen't say it turned into one because of the craftworld. What if it's the presence of the Eldar themselves that gave it physical form? Turned it into an idol that could be worshiped.

The fluff says and I quote "Each fragment ULTIMATELY came to rest within the wraithbone core of a craftworld, where it took root and grew into an Avatar of the Bloody-handed God." That means that the Avatars wern't always within the Craftworlds.

Er... no, it means that before settling into the Craftworlds, they were just drifting bits of God. Each fragment only became an avatar once planted in a Craftworld... and is intrinsically linked to that Craftworld... which suggests that if the Craftworld is destroyed, the Avatar goes with it.

Not to seem rude but I think this is just your interpretation of the fluff, unless you've seen fluff I haven't.

The quote from the codex says nothing about the avatar being intrinsically linked to the craftworld, if that was the case then every time a Avatar was destroyed in battle the craftworld itself would be destroyed. And nothing says that it was the craftworld that caused it to turn into a statue. Let's not forget that although it may be a statue this is a piece of a god, if the craftworld is destroyed that's no gaurentee that the statue itself is destroyed.

And that dosen't discount that the population of a Craftworld can be wiped out leaving an empty husk, that they could dissapear or be forced to abandon it. Leaving it open for DE to take the statue. There are plenty of oppurtunities for DE to take an Avatar.

And something was said earlier about a shard not being able to reach Commoragh because it's in the webway? Why woulden't it be able to? it's a shard of an Eldar god that has been in both the warp and material space. So what would have stopped it from reaching commoragh?

OR (this part is just an idea and not really supported in fluff, at least I don't think it is) what if Commoragh was a craftworld, what's to say that it wasen't a craftworld just like the rest before its inhabitants found a way to get it into the webway? There was a time period when the Craftworld Eldar didn't even know that the Dark Eldar existed. If Commoragh was at one point a craftworld inhabited or used by those Eldar who eventually turned dark and the shards of Khaine went directly to craftworlds what's to say Commoragh didn't have a shard/statue with it when it entered the webway? (again not supported by fluff, at least not officially)

Khaine is still worshipped. Pg 6 of the new dark eldar codex.

As for an avatar I don't think it's exactly feasible as drawing an eldar god from the warp to physically manifest as an avatar would draw a lot of attention from slaanesh & that is deeply frowned upon.

Also page 5 states that the psychic abilities of the dark eldar have atrophied and that any and all use of any psychic powers / devices is one of the few things strictly prohibitted in the dark city.

tl;dr while theoretically possible I think it is an extreme long shot that it could ever happen, about the same as the emperor getting off his toilet to wipe his bum. But still it's just a game do whatever you want.

I think the last argument is the most compelling. I also see the possibility of Harlequins bringing shards of Khaine to the various craftworlds or even maidenworlds in an attempt to save him. Given their familiarity with all the Eldar cultures, I don't think they'd exclude the Dark Eldar from this kind of "gift". I also don't think that the eldar of Commoragh would turn their noses at such a gift, either. I'm sure that if this is the case, Vect has some diabolical plot involving the release of the Avatar on one or more enemies. That being said, it's purely conjecture/speculation on my part.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

reds8n wrote:

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote: I've seen nothing that says that the Dark Eldar stopped worshiping their gods

You need to have a flick through the new codex.

I was sure there was a kabal in there that mentions Khaine worship. Was I mistaken?

T'was the Incubi themselves i believe.


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The Dark Eldar do not have Psykers period. They are a race apart from craftworld Eldar and all their psychic abilities have completely atrophied.


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Basically it comes down to one question:

Are psychic powers needed to summon an Avatar?

If no then yes DE could feasibly summon an Avatar.

If yes then no, no Avatars for you DE.

So explain to me how it is that the Dark Eldar still use psychic based technology if they are no longer psychic?

Regardless of power level a psyker is a psyker. Dark eldar are still psykers.




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And atrophied does not mean it is gone. Atrophied means that it has deminished, the DE may not be as adept of psykers as they once where but that does not mean that the psychic gene and its effects are completly gone (considering the Old Ones specifically created the race to be psykers.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:So explain to me how it is that the Dark Eldar still use psychic based technology if they are no longer psychic?

Regardless of power level a psyker is a psyker. Dark eldar are still psykers.




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And atrophied does not mean it is gone. Atrophied means that it has deminished, the DE may not be as adept of psykers as they once where but that does not mean that the psychic gene and its effects are completly gone (considering the Old Ones specifically created the race to be psykers.

what psychic technology?

Gavin Thorne wrote:I think the last argument is the most compelling. I also see the possibility of Harlequins bringing shards of Khaine to the various craftworlds or even maidenworlds in an attempt to save him. Given their familiarity with all the Eldar cultures, I don't think they'd exclude the Dark Eldar from this kind of "gift". I also don't think that the eldar of Commoragh would turn their noses at such a gift, either. I'm sure that if this is the case, Vect has some diabolical plot involving the release of the Avatar on one or more enemies. That being said, it's purely conjecture/speculation on my part.

Nevertheless, I'd say that is one of the more plausible explanations. Bravo! Certainly better than "durr hurr, everyfink from Khaine floated in space than each landed on a seperate Craftworld."