Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I was looking through some fluff, I don't own the new DE codex but based off of what I've seen it theoretically would be possible for the Dark Eldar to summon an Avatar of Khaine. I've seen nothing that says that the Dark Eldar stopped worshiping their gods and the idea that a kabal/faction may believe the Avatar can protect them from the predations of Slaanesh. And maybe it would be a twisted version of Khaine who revels in the pleasure of murder and war.

So if the Dark Eldar got ahold of one of the Shards of Khaine (I'm not sure if they're all acounted for) and had a suitable sacrifice (maybe a captured Eldar Exarch) would it be possible for the Dark Eldar to summon Khaine? He is the god of murder after all and the DA do get pleasure from murder. And imagine the modeling aspect of it, maybe combining the Dark elf Cauldron of Blood model with the existing Avatar?

It's been a while since I've read my Eldar fluff, but my understanding is that the Avatars, when not called into action, reside in the heart of each of the Craftworlds, and are intrinsically linked to that Craftworld.

Which would seem to be a major stumbling block for Dark Eldar having one...

But considering that Craftworlds can be destroyed (and that one was even sucked into the Eye of Terror) it actually woulden't be that big of a block for the DE to step over. The fluff says and I quote "Each fragment ULTIMATELY came to rest within the wraithbone core of a craftworld, where it took root and grew into an Avatar of the Bloody-handed God." That means that the Avatars wern't always within the Craftworlds.

And like I said there was Altansar which was sucked into the Eye. The fluff only says that Maugen Ra led what was left of his craftworld out of the Eye. It dosen't say that he brought the Entire craftworld itself out, which would lead it open to be pillaged and plundered by the DE via the webway including the Avatar. Or their are the other smaller craftworlds that could have been destroyed and their avatar taken.

I was mistaken about what I said earlier. It's the WHFB Khaine that's the god of murder, in 40k he's just war.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And then there is Kaelor. The Eldar of that craftworld where known for decadence and actions that bordered on what caused the fall. Pleasure cults where considered normal on the Craftworld, whose to say some didn't turn and summon the Avatar.

In fluff terms it’s possible but very hard for Dark eldar to do. For Craftworlders the entire craftworld needs a shard of the avatar, the psychic energy of an entire craftworld at war, and a suitable sacrifice.

All of this seems easy till you get to the psychic energy part as all DE are psychically weak compared to their craftworld brother and most of the time not enough DE are united in one war effort to summon him.

DE are raiders not war fighters, the don’t launch huge drawn out campaigns or defensive strategies of any kind... soooo not alot of use or possibility of a DE avatar. Thou Im not saying it’s impossible, if they had 2 of those three above it would certainly be a dark twisted perversion of the craftworld war god people are used to seeing...

and in order to awaken the Avatar you need the whole craftwords rage along with "a young king".

The young king Sacrifices himself to awaken the avatar.

I don't think the Dark Eldar are capable of Noble acts such as this.

You could probably use the Talos rules if you wanted to.

As for the fluff, perhaps substituting the usual torturing stuff for psychic power?
So far, that has seemed to work for the Dark Eldar.

I don't see any nobility in the eldar sacrificing someone; just more proof that the eldar are as evil as every other race in 40k . . .

no its self sacrifice, its noble as its giving your life to save others.

The young king is chosen by the Craftworlds Farseers. He may go willingly as an honor but being chosen hardly strikes me as self sacrifice. And the codex says nothing about under which circumstances the sacrifice need take place. And I already mentioned that the DE would not be sacrificing one of their own but perhaps a suitable captured exarch.

I am not doing this myself I am helping a friend who wants to make an apocalypse Dark Eldar army with appropriate versions of certain Eldar units, namely the Avatar. While he does not need it to play the unit he has asked me to help him make the fluff for these units.

As far as my Eldar knowledge goes, it would be impossible for the DE to summon an avatar as a) It would be impossible for the DE to actually get to the center of a Craftworld, they are absolutely massive, much larger then 3 planets combined! It would take all of Commoragh to even stand a chance against one, and b) It takes a tremendous amount Psychic energy to summon an Avatar, something that no DE has

Please read what has already been posted because most of that has already been addressed. And I believe some of them are simply wrong or unsupported.

There is nothing to suggest that an Avatar of Khaine would be adverse to fighting alongside Dark Eldar, indeed the darker histories and legends surrounding him describe the Dark Kin to a T. Khaine can even appear almost Khornate in his bloodlust and fury. The actual process required in summoning the Avatar may be a different story.

=I= White-Wolf wrote: b) It takes a tremendous amount Psychic energy to summon an Avatar, something that no DE has

I haven't seen any evidence that it actually takes a psychic chant or power to summon the avatar. Indeed, according to Gav Thorpe's "Path of the Warrior" (which in fact includes a reference to repentant incubi, the better part of an Avatar's summoning is laready done by the time the ritual sacrifice actually takes place, the immobile stone creature already rumbling with the (Craftworld) population's latent psycic disturbance. While Dark Eldar are not reknowned for their use of Seers, I don't know if your average DE's bloodlust would have the same effect. The sacrifice part of the ritual is no problem, there is no guideline that points to the requirement for the sacrifice to be willing, or even Eldar at all. Perhaps any captured warrior would do. The real block is the vast amounts of psychic energy needed to bring the Avatar to that current state in the first place. I can only imagine that the Dark Eldar would have countless ways in manipulating and warping the power of captured psykers. Go for it!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

=I= White-Wolf wrote:a) It would be impossible for the DE to actually get to the center of a Craftworld, they are absolutely massive, much larger then 3 planets combined! It would take all of Commoragh to even stand a chance against one

Sorry, missed this one. Craftworlds vary in size greatly, the largest of which (and once most populous) being Iyaden and had been comparable to a moon. Many would be little bigger than your average Space Hulk, and it would be all too easy for the combined strength of a Kabal to overrun one (let alone infiltrate). That said, DE in space are notoriously adverse to such large scale naval fights. Give them a planet with no orbital defences any day to loot and plunder as they will (or at least allow them to use the webway to avoid any said defences or fleets). That said, if a single Kabal can sweep over planets, the combined strength of one or two Kabals could likely do the same to any typical craftworld (barring Biel-Tan, Saim-Hann and the more notorious fellows).

The only problem I see is the leather bondage gear would burn off within a few seconds...

Not sure on the Eldar fluff but has it possibly got to do with the way that Commorragh is situated in the webway effectively between the warp realspace.

If the Avatar of Khaine is a fragment of essence that resides in the warp then there's no way for the spirit to get to Commorragh. Unlike the Craftworld faring Eldar who actively have a connecition.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:But considering that Craftworlds can be destroyed (and that one was even sucked into the Eye of Terror) it actually woulden't be that big of a block for the DE to step over. The fluff says and I quote "Each fragment ULTIMATELY came to rest within the wraithbone core of a craftworld, where it took root and grew into an Avatar of the Bloody-handed God." That means that the Avatars wern't always within the Craftworlds.

And like I said there was Altansar which was sucked into the Eye. The fluff only says that Maugen Ra led what was left of his craftworld out of the Eye. It dosen't say that he brought the Entire craftworld itself out, which would lead it open to be pillaged and plundered by the DE via the webway including the Avatar. Or their are the other smaller craftworlds that could have been destroyed and their avatar taken.

I was mistaken about what I said earlier. It's the WHFB Khaine that's the god of murder, in 40k he's just war.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And then there is Kaelor. The Eldar of that craftworld where known for decadence and actions that bordered on what caused the fall. Pleasure cults where considered normal on the Craftworld, whose to say some didn't turn and summon the Avatar.

The fragment of Khaine was mobile when it moved to the Craftworld, but they take the form of a giant immobile iron statue: I assume it's physically welded to the Craftworld until it comes alive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:The young king is chosen by the Craftworlds Farseers. He may go willingly as an honor but being chosen hardly strikes me as self sacrifice. And the codex says nothing about under which circumstances the sacrifice need take place. And I already mentioned that the DE would not be sacrificing one of their own but perhaps a suitable captured exarch.

I am not doing this myself I am helping a friend who wants to make an apocalypse Dark Eldar army with appropriate versions of certain Eldar units, namely the Avatar. While he does not need it to play the unit he has asked me to help him make the fluff for these units.

To quote Dawn of War ():

"But Farseer, why do you ask for what is already yours?"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pluuuus one could argue that the Farseers pick someone they know won't not want to go... if that makes sense.

It's Apoc. Do it. And post pics.


I can see it being a cross between an Eldar Avatar and a Bloodthirsty in terms of wargear and decorations. The basic Avatar body coupled with a big nasty whip of some kind. Loads of skulls and trophies from its previous victims. Maybe bards or spines up it's legs and/or arms to match it's look to that of DE armour and vehicles.

I think this is an awsome idea and would actually love to make a kabal that possessed a shard of khaine and worshiped the god of war and murder.

Really it would not be hard to find the psychic energy required to summon a "dark" Avatar. Perhaps in there freetime the DE of this kabal ply the star capturing the souls of there tortured victims till they gather enough to awaken khaine with a suitable sacrifice. It day they would have to leave the dark city to do so though as not to invoke the wrath of vect or the warp.

Taking a look at the Eldar book, it does say that the Avatar is in the form of an immobile statue of Iron, that it's on every Craftworld (and doesn't mention anywhere else), and is stirred to life by the psychic reverberations of the Eldar's battle lust.

The Dark Eldar have no psychic capabilities. They shunned them all because without spirit stones it attracts the attention of Slanesh, something they cannot afford in any way. It's also possible that they would not be able to get hold on an Avatar. Even if there was a craftworld they could plunder (the book, despite what you think, says that Maugan Ra led what was left of his CRAFTWORLD out of the Eye of Terror, which means he took the whole thing. If he had just taken his people, you might have had a point), actually fighting their way to it would be costly.

So no. It might be interesting to see a Dark Eldar Avatar it couldn't happen. And even if it could, it wouldn't look any different, because Khaine is not a reflection of the Eldar, he is war incarnate.

Yeah, it seems unlikely that the DE would risk drawing Slaanesh's attention so a literal Avatar is out. But, Kaine is an aspect of Khorne, and all that bloodlust (and an aversion to Slaanesh) may very well get his attention and he might provide something awfully close. After all, a juggernaut isn't *that* far removed from an avatar- both are daemonic hybrids of rage, flesh, and iron. I think the Fantasy Cauldron of Blood is a good reference- maybe there is a fanatical blood kabal that has such a statue (probably an ancient Eldar artifact) that they can call to battle with excessive bloodletting and sacrifice. The Brides of Khaine (wyches) serve as the guardians and activators, slaughtering slaves so that their hot blood fills the sacrificial bowl and stirs the daemonic entity.

zonino wrote:Taking a look at the Eldar book, it does say that the Avatar is in the form of an immobile statue of Iron, that it's on every Craftworld (and doesn't mention anywhere else), and is stirred to life by the psychic reverberations of the Eldar's battle lust.

The Dark Eldar have no psychic capabilities. They shunned them all because without spirit stones it attracts the attention of Slanesh, something they cannot afford in any way. It's also possible that they would not be able to get hold on an Avatar. Even if there was a craftworld they could plunder (the book, despite what you think, says that Maugan Ra led what was left of his CRAFTWORLD out of the Eye of Terror, which means he took the whole thing. If he had just taken his people, you might have had a point), actually fighting their way to it would be costly.

So no. It might be interesting to see a Dark Eldar Avatar it couldn't happen. And even if it could, it wouldn't look any different, because Khaine is not a reflection of the Eldar, he is war incarnate.

jmurph wrote:Yeah, it seems unlikely that the DE would risk drawing Slaanesh's attention so a literal Avatar is out. But, Kaine is an aspect of Khorne, and all that bloodlust (and an aversion to Slaanesh) may very well get his attention and he might provide something awfully close. After all, a juggernaut isn't *that* far removed from an avatar- both are daemonic hybrids of rage, flesh, and iron. I think the Fantasy Cauldron of Blood is a good reference- maybe there is a fanatical blood kabal that has such a statue (probably an ancient Eldar artifact) that they can call to battle with excessive bloodletting and sacrifice. The Brides of Khaine (wyches) serve as the guardians and activators, slaughtering slaves so that their hot blood fills the sacrificial bowl and stirs the daemonic entity.

I disagree. I think this is very do able.

A kabal worshipping the lord of murder and war found a shard of khaine in a craftworld whipped out by tyranids, or orks, or necron. They take the Iron throne and statue and hook it up to a twisted corrupt version of an infinity matrix within one of there own flagships. Then they trap say... 1000 powerful souls (eldar). They capture a living exarch while gathering said souls and force him to tell them how the ritual to summon khaine works. Then they prepare there said sacrifice and inject all those souls into the matrix and lock the sacrifice into the chamber and BAM! twisted dark avatar of DE! And they do all of this outside of the webay to avoid conflict with the other DE kabals and warp attention.

Now how is this SOOOO far out of fluff thats its IMPOSSIBLE to happen? Seems pretty legit and not too far fetched to me. It would be a very rare occurence because of all the effort it takes to summon said avatar but still possible, IMO at least.

just as planned...

zonino wrote:Taking a look at the Eldar book, it does say that the Avatar is in the form of an immobile statue of Iron

Just so you know immobile does not mean immovable.

That it's on every Craftworld (and doesn't mention anywhere else)

I'm not sure if you've read what's already been said but it is aparent that Craftworlds can be destroyed and their populations wiped out leaving them open to be pillaged.

and is stirred to life by the psychic reverberations of the Eldar's battle lust.

The Dark Eldar have no psychic capabilities.

WRONG!!! The ENTIRE Eldar race is psychic, they are born that way, they where created that way and will remain that way regardless of affiliation. Do not mistake choosing not to use psychic powers for a lack of psychic capabilities especially considering all Eldar technology (no matter what the faction) is psychic based. And what you think the DE don't have a battle lust that would be reverted psychicly?

They shunned them all because without spirit stones it attracts the attention of Slanesh, something they cannot afford in any way.

This is relevant how? nowhere does it say that to summon Khaine requires the use of massive psychic energies, it simply says he is awakened by the Eldar psychic call to war (which the DE are just as equally capable of doing).

It's also possible that they would not be able to get hold on an Avatar. Even if there was a craftworld they could plunder (the book, despite what you think, says that Maugan Ra led what was left of his CRAFTWORLD out of the Eye of Terror, which means he took the whole thing.

Really? is that what it says? let's take a look shall we

"Maugan Ra guided what was left of his craftworld out of the Eye of Terror, and led them against the forces of the Despoiler to deny him ultimate victory."

I'm just curious but if he led the actual craftworld from the Eye instead of just what remained of it's people then why would the Craftworld have been referanced as "them"? And how was the physical craftworld itself able to defeated the Black crusade? You might want to take your time and actually read what's been written beings as the words used referance a group of beings not a physical location. Hence that he led his people from the Eye, not the craftworld itself. You may have been confused by when it says "his craftworld" which is in referance to the place of his birth.

Plus there is the fact that in a 500 year period Altansar coulden't escape the Eyes gravity well, so why would it have been able to get out now? Nad then add on that Abadons crusade wasen't the only time the Eye opened in those 10,000 years so why didn't it get out any of those number of times where it so easy? And don't say it's because Maugan Ra was there beings as he was there when the craftworld was first sucked in hince why he was the "only one to escape".

If he had just taken his people, you might have had a point), actually fighting their way to it would be costly.

Just read what I've posted above considering the exact wording from the codex referances that he took just his people and common sense and proper reading of the codex supports this. Oh wait that means I have a point dosen't it? and that I actually know what I'm talking about, imagine that

Oh and then there is the fact (which I've already pointed out) that there are other craftworlds that have been destroyed or their people wiped out. I don't think it would be to hard for the DE to be able to take the statue from one of these lost/destroyed/forgotten/empty craftworlds.

So no. It might be interesting to see a Dark Eldar Avatar it couldn't happen.

Again WRONG, reasons stated above. It is very possible for DE to summon the Avatar.

It would take all of Commoragh to take down one craftworld? If all of Commoragh united and declared war they could destroy any other force in the Imperium. They never will of course, but Commoragh is singularly massive and contains likely hundreds of billions af various dark eldar and haemonculus creations.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:

zonino wrote:Taking a look at the Eldar book, it does say that the Avatar is in the form of an immobile statue of Iron

Just so you know immobile does not mean immovable.

That it's on every Craftworld (and doesn't mention anywhere else)

I'm not sure if you've read what's already been said but it is aparent that Craftworlds can be destroyed and their populations wiped out leaving them open to be pillaged.

and is stirred to life by the psychic reverberations of the Eldar's battle lust.

The Dark Eldar have no psychic capabilities.

WRONG!!! The ENTIRE Eldar race is psychic, they are born that way, they where created that way and will remain that way regardless of affiliation. Do not mistake choosing not to use psychic powers for a lack of psychic capabilities especially considering all Eldar technology (no matter what the faction) is psychic based. And what you think the DE don't have a battle lust that would be reverted psychicly?

They shunned them all because without spirit stones it attracts the attention of Slanesh, something they cannot afford in any way.

This is relevant how? nowhere does it say that to summon Khaine requires the use of massive psychic energies, it simply says he is awakened by the Eldar psychic call to war (which the DE are just as equally capable of doing).

It's also possible that they would not be able to get hold on an Avatar. Even if there was a craftworld they could plunder (the book, despite what you think, says that Maugan Ra led what was left of his CRAFTWORLD out of the Eye of Terror, which means he took the whole thing.

Really? is that what it says? let's take a look shall we

"Maugan Ra guided what was left of his craftworld out of the Eye of Terror, and led them against the forces of the Despoiler to deny him ultimate victory."

I'm just curious but if he led the actual craftworld from the Eye instead of just what remained of it's people then why would the Craftworld have been referanced as "them"? And how was the physical craftworld itself able to defeated the Black crusade? You might want to take your time and actually read what's been written beings as the words used referance a group of beings not a physical location. Hence that he led his people from the Eye, not the craftworld itself. You may have been confused by when it says "his craftworld" which is in referance to the place of his birth.

Plus there is the fact that in a 500 year period Altansar coulden't escape the Eyes gravity well, so why would it have been able to get out now? Nad then add on that Abadons crusade wasen't the only time the Eye opened in those 10,000 years so why didn't it get out any of those number of times where it so easy? And don't say it's because Maugan Ra was there beings as he was there when the craftworld was first sucked in hince why he was the "only one to escape".

If he had just taken his people, you might have had a point), actually fighting their way to it would be costly.

Just read what I've posted above considering the exact wording from the codex referances that he took just his people and common sense and proper reading of the codex supports this. Oh wait that means I have a point dosen't it? and that I actually know what I'm talking about, imagine that

Oh and then there is the fact (which I've already pointed out) that there are other craftworlds that have been destroyed or their people wiped out. I don't think it would be to hard for the DE to be able to take the statue from one of these lost/destroyed/forgotten/empty craftworlds.

So no. It might be interesting to see a Dark Eldar Avatar it couldn't happen.

Again WRONG, reasons stated above. It is very possible for DE to summon the Avatar.

You can argue wording and semantics all you want but the codex and fluff implies that there is still an altansar craftworld so it must have escaped the warp... no?

Umm I'm going to have to go with no. You can say that reading something properly is arguing wording and symantics all you want. I call it being able to read because there is no argument about it.

They word "them" is in referance to a group of beings not a location and as it is apart of the same sentence concerning Maugan Ra leading what remained of his craftworld out of the Eye this means that he led the Altansar people not the Craftworld, it's really not that hard to understand.

And what you think Altansar is only considered a craftworld if it's outside the Eye? so then what is it when it's inside the Eye a pretty star? The fluff (through proper reading) implies that the Eldar of Altansar escaped the Eye not that the Craftworld itself escaped.

Draglide12 wrote:It would take all of Commoragh to take down one craftworld? If all of Commoragh united and declared war they could destroy any other force in the Imperium. They never will of course, but Commoragh is singularly massive and contains likely hundreds of billions af various dark eldar and haemonculus creations.

An slight exaggeration I'm sure. Commoragh is described as (basically) a sprawling, monstrosity of a space port. In all likelihood it's comparable to a (large) human Hive City. And it must also be considered that they need space to house their captives (even when packed like tinned sardines). Such a large sprawling mass in the webway could likely house several billions of Dark Eldar. But hundreds of billions of Eldar is certainly taking it too far. Even if all the Kabals were to unite, it's unlikely they would pose a greater threat to any race in galaxy than the combined might of the Craftworlds.

In the most recent fluff, Commoragh is described as being an order of magnitude larger than a human hive city. It is very hard to think of how much space the Dark City occupies as it is in the webway where time and space have less meaning than in the real space.

In the new fluff, I would say that Commoragh is comparable to Ravinica, for anyone who knows MTG. Basically a Large Planet sized city with a variety of different districts and levels

I'm a Star Wars fan so i think of Commoragh as a 40k version of Nar Shadda or a gritty Coruscant.

Laughing God wrote:

zonino wrote:Taking a look at the Eldar book, it does say that the Avatar is in the form of an immobile statue of Iron, that it's on every Craftworld (and doesn't mention anywhere else), and is stirred to life by the psychic reverberations of the Eldar's battle lust.

The Dark Eldar have no psychic capabilities. They shunned them all because without spirit stones it attracts the attention of Slanesh, something they cannot afford in any way. It's also possible that they would not be able to get hold on an Avatar. Even if there was a craftworld they could plunder (the book, despite what you think, says that Maugan Ra led what was left of his CRAFTWORLD out of the Eye of Terror, which means he took the whole thing. If he had just taken his people, you might have had a point), actually fighting their way to it would be costly.

So no. It might be interesting to see a Dark Eldar Avatar it couldn't happen. And even if it could, it wouldn't look any different, because Khaine is not a reflection of the Eldar, he is war incarnate.

jmurph wrote:Yeah, it seems unlikely that the DE would risk drawing Slaanesh's attention so a literal Avatar is out. But, Kaine is an aspect of Khorne, and all that bloodlust (and an aversion to Slaanesh) may very well get his attention and he might provide something awfully close. After all, a juggernaut isn't *that* far removed from an avatar- both are daemonic hybrids of rage, flesh, and iron. I think the Fantasy Cauldron of Blood is a good reference- maybe there is a fanatical blood kabal that has such a statue (probably an ancient Eldar artifact) that they can call to battle with excessive bloodletting and sacrifice. The Brides of Khaine (wyches) serve as the guardians and activators, slaughtering slaves so that their hot blood fills the sacrificial bowl and stirs the daemonic entity.

I disagree. I think this is very do able.

A kabal worshipping the lord of murder and war found a shard of khaine in a craftworld whipped out by tyranids, or orks, or necron. They take the Iron throne and statue and hook it up to a twisted corrupt version of an infinity matrix within one of there own flagships. Then they trap say... 1000 powerful souls (eldar). They capture a living exarch while gathering said souls and force him to tell them how the ritual to summon khaine works. Then they prepare there said sacrifice and inject all those souls into the matrix and lock the sacrifice into the chamber and BAM! twisted dark avatar of DE! And they do all of this outside of the webay to avoid conflict with the other DE kabals and warp attention.

Now how is this SOOOO far out of fluff thats its IMPOSSIBLE to happen? Seems pretty legit and not too far fetched to me. It would be a very rare occurence because of all the effort it takes to summon said avatar but still possible, IMO at least.

"Shard".

You're ignoring the fact it's a giant metal *statue*.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote: I've seen nothing that says that the Dark Eldar stopped worshiping their gods

You need to have a flick through the new codex.

reds8n wrote:

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote: I've seen nothing that says that the Dark Eldar stopped worshiping their gods

You need to have a flick through the new codex.

I was sure there was a kabal in there that mentions Khaine worship. Was I mistaken?