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Carlovonsexron wrote:I dont hate 40k - I love most aspects about it. Because lets be real here -the big and central theme in 40k is still how the Imperium deals with the catastrophe of the Horus Heresy and the legacy it has wrought for the Human race.

I love the concepts of an Imperium of Man, particularly one that has so much room for variation and uniqueness and letting people put thier own spin from endless legions of IG to crack chapters of Astartes - and then you get the weirdness of the mechanicum, the dark but fascinating and exciting tones from the Inquisition and neat little facets possibilities for unique characters like rogue traders.

In Human terms, 40k is full of greatness - a unique setting that blends together to many different elements of influence into one fascinating unique whole.

But you take the greatness that has been imbued into the Human factions and compare it with whats going on with the aliens...

...And I cant help but be disappointed. thats hardly Moronic. That's realistic.

So you'd rather have only IG, Space Marines, and Chaos? Because your topic specifically says "and think they should be scrapped". Based on your original post, maybe Tau and Tyranids get to stay on probation, but the other armies go away. The other armies are an integral part of the fluff, whether you like it or not. If you prefer imperial fluff, than play imperial armies, but don't go out saying other armies should be scrapped because you don't like their fluff. I would never play a Space Wolves army because I personally think their fluff is stupid, but I'm not calling for them to be scrapped.


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Shas'O Dorian wrote:I'll just leave this here:

+1
Edit: While his topic was poorly worded, it is possible that the OP isn't actually trolling. If this is the case, my apologies.

Well, its not actually meant to be a troll - not in the slightest. Perhaps its been poorly worded, that would be a fair critique, but a troll thread was not my intention!

That said, no I wouldnt like the game to be solelly IoM/Chaos +Tau & Nids - rather I'd like it to be all those plus other alien races that dont have a direct WARHAMMER FANTASY analog.

Or at least some sort of face lift & fluff lift to make them not quite so blatant.

And Regarding IoM=Empire, Space Marines = Brittonia, that is at best a very, very rough fit. certainly the fluff for the 4 entities doesn't really mesh as easily as it can be seen for the Eldar/Elves, and Orks/Orcs. I'd say that if they are direct parallels then at least GW has swept its tracks decently enough with them in terms of both form and function.

Really? Orks? You want to take out all the humor in the game, and make it all 3+ and 5+ saves? Be my guest.

Remainder of post redacted by the Modquisition for flaming/hostility. Please be nice to each other. Remember it's about toy soldiers. -The Mgmt.

A bit harsh there, arnt you? I'm not talking about thing from a game play standpoint at all - in all fairness I'm all for more Xenos armies, but I want unique Xenos armies.

For the purposes of the thread, I dont give a flip about gameplay values.

And as you might suspect under all that burning rage of hatekill, I'm not too intimidated by someone wanting terrible things to happen to my army just because someones offended by the lack of creativity I find in two (or three depending on your view point) of 40K's Xenos races.

Find one fantasy game without some sort of Orc or Ork. 40k Orks have interesting fluff, good humor, and play very fun. Imperium is going downhill. There are Vampire (Vampire Counts) and Viking (Skeggi) armies in the Imperium. There is no use arguing. GW steals from itself, but cuts the 2 games.

Of course there will be similarities. 40k was designed as a space Warhammer from the start. There is no denying that.

And really? You think that SPAECE MAHRINEZ are original? You have much to learn, young padawan. Come back to the forum when you have read more than 1 codex, alright?

I never claimed that space marines were original - indeed, if you read that whole body paragraph of the OP, I point them out as not being original, but a virtual necessity in any Sci-fi setting that isnt star trek or star wars.

GW just happens to have at least built up enough of their own fluff around them to give them a very distinct flavor.

I also never claimed that Orc/ks shouldnt be in warhammer fantasy - just that 40k has so many other unique spins and twists on old established concepts with enough stuff all of thier own thrown in that space orcs fall flat by comparison. I never said they were funny, I never claimed they werent entertaining in thier own way.

I did claim that I dont particularly find them all that compelling as an alien race, and that I wouldn't mind them getting the ax for something a little more unique. That's an opinion of course - one I was curious to see other peoples takes on. But I have no intention on letting people attempt to intimidate me out of my opinion, through use of vulgarities, threats, threatening wishes, or ridicule.

Carlovonsexron wrote:Of course, as a Loyal Imperial Citizen, EVERY XENOS MUST DIE, but in a generic sense I really dont like the fact that the Eldar/Dark Eldar, Necros, and (worst of all) Orks are just fantasy rip-offs. You cant even say that the necrons are just Terminator ripp offs, given that they have a vague Egyptian decoration vibe going on some of them, which seems like a pretty overt reference to tomb kings.

The Tyranids are alright - a bit too "Aliens" for my taste and a pretty blatant rip But the flip side of that is if the Orks had a little more "Predator" in their design they would look significantly more alien and sci-fi - which is something I really with 40k had more of. As it is, the Tau and the Space Marines get the awards for the greatest amount of inspired science fiction going into them, with both capitalizing off long established themes of either Grey Aliens + Japanese Mecha for the Tau (which is actually a pretty inspired combination), and the classic Heinlein Starship troopers for the all conquering Astartes. (Which doesnt really need to be unique, because its a fecking awesome concept that has a wonderful place in all sorts of sci-fi. Because if you dont have a starship trooper analogue, then your left with either crappy stormtroopers as mass infantry, or worse a bunch of starfleet officers who don't exactly inspire confidence in terms of imagining heavy ground assaults....)

But anway, I was just wondering if there were others who shared my view that I'd like a bunch more sci-fi and a lot less warhammer fantasy in 40k. It's a nonsense dream of course - nothing will come of it, and i dont mind how an army plays as being inspired by an analogue in the fantasy setting... but space orcs and space elfs and space undead suck big time. The tau shouldnt be the lone standard of a uniquely 40k alien race...

Awwww........

Noir wrote:

Carlovonsexron wrote:
And my point is that orcs in space are lame.

And your wrong.

As for Iom
IG = Empire
SM = Bretonnia
How do you not see that.

OMG SPACE MARINES ARE POOR RICH CENTAURS WITH HALBERDS! thanks for clearing that up for me.

Oh man, this topic again? how long was it since the last time?

Let us see an idea from you, hmm! If you think of a new race that is nor influenced by WHFB or copied off anyone in the Internet. Manage to do this task, and I will not post on this thread. Go.

DOWN with eldar!

UP with Hrud


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Ambuls?

Carnivourous space clams?

Hrud?

You want more original xenos armies ...

You want to see what kind of concept for a playable, model-able ALIEN race that is NOT derived from anything else (anytime, anywhere) you can come up with then?

Got news for you. It's pretty much ALL been done. Bug-like Aliens (Starship troopers, Armor), Reptilian Aliens, Felinoid aliens, tentacular blobby aliens, Hexapedal aliens, vampires (Space Vampires, that is, not the sparkly kind).

The trick, is (like Dan O'Bannon's famous quote*) to steal a little bit from EVERYONE and put it together into a semi-cohesive form that works. This is what 40k is. It stole concepts from EVERY MAJOR SF novel and source written prior to 1987 and integrated them into the melange.

Tolkien? That hack! Even HE appropriated other mythologies to cobble together his "hollow earth" sagas.

* "I didn't steal Alien from anyone. I stole it from EVERYONE."

So make a six legged, bug, lizard, dog alien with tentacles and a jelly like consistency? HELL YEAH!


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And it needs to be part of a democracy becuase no other 40k race is.

Shas'O Dorian wrote:

What the hell did you expect a topic like this to generate besides a total flame fest?

chowderhead13 wrote:Let us see an idea from you, hmm! If you think of a new race that is nor influenced by WHFB or copied off anyone in the Internet. Manage to do this task, and I will not post on this thread. Go.

How about a species of sentient arachno-avians who's main goal is subversion of neighboring species into fighting one another allowing this species to essentially sit back and take on threats piece-meal, if even necessary. An infusion of grimdark might be add by giving them a particular urge to orchestrate grand schemes of show with these "lesser" species, giving them in some whats a tzeentchian &slannesh bend to them if we needed to identify them as being susceptible to any particular Chaos Gods.. Biology wise they are about on par with a human in both strength and intelligence, and tech wise their mechanization have left them with a powerful enough economy as to have a fairly nicely developed tech base from trade - including an understanding of some second hand Imperial tech. Governance is handled through a synod, a strange cross of hereditary nobility ad elected official (think a limited pool of candidates, based off familial descent) with religious and mercantile over tones. These families retain power for themselves based on in jostling between themselves just as much an appeasing the masses through what ever current scheme is though appropriate.

Inwardly virulently xenophobic, it is a race that can "put on a nice face" to deal with other species (such as the IoM) when needed, they look wearily upon the Imperium of Man - having been an Eastern Fringe power for sometime (and far longer then the still idealistic Tau- and perhaps only saved from conquest by the outbreak of the Horus Heresy.) they look to buy themselves time to work up the means to change the balance of power in the Eastern Fringe, potentially by seeking ways to capitlize off the Tyranids - provided that they can fight them, the IoM, and any other threats off.

I dont know if that'll be totally unique, but i figure its a decent first go.


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chromedog wrote:You want more original xenos armies ...

You want to see what kind of concept for a playable, model-able ALIEN race that is NOT derived from anything else (anytime, anywhere) you can come up with then?

Got news for you. It's pretty much ALL been done. Bug-like Aliens (Starship troopers, Armor), Reptilian Aliens, Felinoid aliens, tentacular blobby aliens, Hexapedal aliens, vampires (Space Vampires, that is, not the sparkly kind).

The trick, is (like Dan O'Bannon's famous quote*) to steal a little bit from EVERYONE and put it together into a semi-cohesive form that works. This is what 40k is. It stole concepts from EVERY MAJOR SF novel and source written prior to 1987 and integrated them into the melange.

Tolkien? That hack! Even HE appropriated other mythologies to cobble together his "hollow earth" sagas.

* "I didn't steal Alien from anyone. I stole it from EVERYONE."

No, I want more Xenos armies not blatantly ripped off from warhammer fantasy.


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Mukkin'About wrote:

Shas'O Dorian wrote:

What the hell did you expect a topic like this to generate besides a total flame fest?

something a little more mature then a total flame fest.

So they have 8 legs and two wings? or six legs and two wings or 4 legs and 4 wings. Or 2 legs and six wings?

What weapons do they use?

What level is their space travel at?

Im not challenging you or making fun of you, im genuinely interested

I like the concept of gender based flight - the entire species evolved from an ancestor capable of flight, but the females being lithe and smaller retain full wings on two of the appendages, and other wise have two dedicated to walking, two that are dedicated arms & hands, and the last two are geared more towards arm & hand, but can easilly be used for locomotion.

Males ( bucking the trend for most invertebrates, such as i understand them - though I guess these guys need some sort of an endoskeleton also, to support thier own weight. maybe the exoskeleton is just stuff left on certain portions of the body.) are larger and more robust, and have lost the ability to fly altogether - the appendages that would be wings if on the female are now another set of arms & hands.

weapon wise its hard to cover ground that isnt already taken - energy base or solid base someone has it covered, but I guess I envision a race that takes a weapons policy somewhere between the IoM and the Eldar in terms of munitions and in close combat the prospect of male arachno-avian reavers wielding 6 power scimitars (or perhaps the females with 4 flying down upon you naturally - or the males ina jump-pack analogue technology) could look really, really awesome.

Space travel wise its on par with the IoM - in a alot of ways I sort of imagine this species as one that was poised for galactic dominance (at least on the eastern Fringe, if not the whole galaxy) after the fall of the Eldar if the IoM handnt already been ready to win back the pre-dark age of technology human worlds.

Would they reproduce on mass e.g Masses of eggs or more slowly like humans and other mammals


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How do they handle other atmospheres?

What is their skin like? A carapace or skin?

Are their people rebellious and/or free thinking?

Do they value personal possessions?

Is the culture predominantly warrior based?

I assume they have psykers to be able to travel the warp. How powerful are they?

Ooh, can we turn this into a new race speculation thread?
Sapient light suspended in crystal bodies.
Or something with clockwork.

As for weapons you could always say they have found an entirely different state of matter and their ammunition is in that state of matter.

They could also have guns that actually disrupt space and/or matter or that completely remove it from from existence or change it or cause it to exist in the warp instead of normal space. Or guns that shoot waves of concussive air. Or weapons that are purely psychic and attack the enemy minds.

Invisible aliens
£30 for a box of 10

The fanboys will love it

ChocolateGork wrote:Would they reproduce on mass e.g Masses of eggs or more slowly like humans and other mammals


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How do they handle other atmospheres?

What is their skin like? A carapace or skin?

Are their people rebellious and/or free thinking?

Do they value personal possessions?

Is the culture predominantly warrior based?

I assume they have psykers to be able to travel the warp. How powerful are they?

-Reproduction is handled via classic sex that results in the gestation of a soft internal egg. Under duress the female can expel the egg and it can develop in a container of water however. One egg produced at a time, though sometimes twins or other multiples will be produced from a single egg. development time takes about 6 months, but then the species has a shorter life span (about 50-60 years if unaugmented) as the flip side of that.

-They dont handle atmospheres that arnt similar to their home worlds very well. Though their home world has an earth like atmosphere, its was not always so: the world atmosphere was originally substantially more dense with water vapor, making it something of a hot house environment, and supported the weight of large exo skeletons. over time this gradually began to dissipate selecting for a gradual development of hollow bone endoskeletons, with some areas (particularly in the males - such that its something of a gender trait, like facial hair in humans. Not totally unknown for males not to have it or females to have it... but taken to be a "bit strange" in those cases.) left with a cartilage like carapace. Over all Human/Tau tolerances apply. The skin is a bit thicker then a humans, but still comparable. No particular difference when it comes to las pistol shot or a space marines relic blade. A bit more able to withstand blunt trauma, but in the universe of 40k, the only targeted blunt trauma you're likely to receive is a power mace hit to the face from an angry Astarte, and nothing but a crap load of armor is going to offer you any real protection against that.

-Free thinking, but a bit more single minded then Humans tend to be - so once a course of action has been reached they pursue it somewhat relentlessly, though a good enough reason will (like with any species) make them reconsider things. Relentless necrons this species is not, and there is a decent reason they seek to play off surrounding species against one another through sly works and byzantine diplomacy. These are traits of a species evolved from animals that lived in very small groups where every member had a specific role - not the motley assortment of proto apes that would spawn humans, or the herds of alien goat things (beasts of the plains ) that would yield the tau.

-Personal possessions are indeed valued, and to answer two questions at once, the theme of the culture has a big time mercantile bend to it. To tie it in with planetary development, the species evolved in tandem with their planet undergoing enormous climactic changes of a thinning atmosphere - and was pushed towards sentience and from sentience to language and culture by having to deal with changing landscapes and scarcities in materials familial groups were forced into interacting with each other more and more and the advantage lay with those which could communicate with each other. This has lived on in something of a "hoarding" mentality and resulted in some of the shrewdest merchants in the Eastern Fringe, much to the consternation of many a rogue trader looking to get the upper hand in a trade arrangement. Military might is also something of a commodity, and the military might of the species can be seen as mercenary like in nature - including being willing to hire alien mercenaries (including groups of Humans - even renegade space marines perhaps? Alpha legion shout out, I'm looking at you!) But unlike the ta there is no greater good uniting them all, and there are no races that this species has any particular tie to - its just a contract, and when the contract (or the fighting - which ends last) ends no more is expected, because it wasn't a part of the deal. (I put this aspect in as it would be neat to see people come up with yet more enticing alien species and be able to convert them to have a couple different troops choices of radially different aliens, but they all fulfill pretty much the same role. But I dont want to tread down Tau territory to where they are all fighting for the great good, rather its pretty obvious that its just for the cash.) However there is some rigidity to their martial culture, such as the Synod guard Which act as a command staff for field armies (and maintaining its own armies on every world to be the first in and last out type deals in conflicts, or the last, greatest stage of defense) And what are viewed as "proper proportions" of there being less mercenaries in an army then there are troops from the species - just in case the Mercenaries turn out to be less then honorable to the terms of the contract.) And certain conflicts are less liklly to see mercenaries employed. Conflicts with the IoM are for instance very likely to see mercenaries - the need for raw man power against the IoM is legendary (as are the tyranids - but it turns out its very hard to convince mercenaries to sign up to fight the tyranids...) So like any good merchant, they are quite the opportunist.

-psykers exist in slightly less proportions then they do in Humans - as such they tend to be secreted away to temples to be trained in ways to combat deamons who would (like any psyker species) be happy to prey on thier souls and have an easy ticket to the materium. Surviving the training leads to figures who more or less dominate space travel ad religion - but are jealously counter balanced in power by the hereditary members of the synod. There have been occasions where a synod family has given birth to a psyker, and upon maturation these have wielded considerable power and influence in society. Some fringe planets (The Empire is a much more major regional power then the Tau - four or five times as large and located on major trade routes) dont exactly follow this pattern, and and a Psyker nobility has come to fruition on these words, and more then once this has resulted in open war fare with the central synod - usually to see these rebellious psyker princes crushed, but some have managed to reign for quite awhile even in the face of considerable adversity...

...some say that the ordos Xenos has been playing a similar game of sponsoring infighting, but all relevant records have been deemed classified. What is known is that Rogue traders often seem to have dealings with them, including some mercenary works (for both sides) and in capacities of either acting as, or carrying over official IoM diplomats.



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ChocolateGork wrote:As for weapons you could always say they have found an entirely different state of matter and their ammunition is in that state of matter.

They could also have guns that actually disrupt space and/or matter or that completely remove it from from existence or change it or cause it to exist in the warp instead of normal space. Or guns that shoot waves of concussive air. Or weapons that are purely psychic and attack the enemy minds.

I like those ideas! certainly something to much on!

Carlovonsexron wrote:Of course, as a Loyal Imperial Citizen, EVERY XENOS MUST DIE, but in a generic sense I really dont like the fact that the Eldar/Dark Eldar, Necros, and (worst of all) Orks are just fantasy rip-offs. You cant even say that the necrons are just Terminator ripp offs, given that they have a vague Egyptian decoration vibe going on some of them, which seems like a pretty overt reference to tomb kings.

The Tyranids are alright - a bit too "Aliens" for my taste and a pretty blatant rip But the flip side of that is if the Orks had a little more "Predator" in their design they would look significantly more alien and sci-fi - which is something I really with 40k had more of. As it is, the Tau and the Space Marines get the awards for the greatest amount of inspired science fiction going into them, with both capitalizing off long established themes of either Grey Aliens + Japanese Mecha for the Tau (which is actually a pretty inspired combination), and the classic Heinlein Starship troopers for the all conquering Astartes. (Which doesnt really need to be unique, because its a fecking awesome concept that has a wonderful place in all sorts of sci-fi. Because if you dont have a starship trooper analogue, then your left with either crappy stormtroopers as mass infantry, or worse a bunch of starfleet officers who don't exactly inspire confidence in terms of imagining heavy ground assaults....)

But anway, I was just wondering if there were others who shared my view that I'd like a bunch more sci-fi and a lot less warhammer fantasy in 40k. It's a nonsense dream of course - nothing will come of it, and i dont mind how an army plays as being inspired by an analogue in the fantasy setting... but space orcs and space elfs and space undead suck big time. The tau shouldnt be the lone standard of a uniquely 40k alien race...

Then what is the Imperium going to kill then? We got have enemies man or the game will just be manhammer 40k lol , its like now days just a billion so years in the future. I like how they have taken fantasy races and put them into a future setting its like your getting taste of the old style fantasy world(swords,CC, orks,elfs,etc.) and throwing guns, space and superhumans into the mix, whats not to love?

What material is generally used throughout the society?

Do they follow religion?

Do they have harsh laws?

Do they discourage inbreeding?

Do they feel love?





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Do they have any genetic abnormalities that may surface?

Like the psyker gene but something different like extremely large and well armored or able to contort their body's to a ridiculous degree?


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Do they have a supreme ruler and/or a capital planet?

Do they field generals or do they always have councils of guard commanding armies?

How much of a caste structure is there?

Does part of the culture live in poverty or have they found a way to counter this?

Do the rich/royalty have access to better education and do they usually enter the army as officers?

Is life span enhancement offered to the rich and/or as an insentive to do well? e.g becoming an officer

Do they employ vehicles in warfare?

I have to admit, the fact that 40k was a 'Science Fantasy' style universe was what really helped get me into it. To me, that was what made it different and unique compared to a whole lot of other things. Yes, individual concepts were stolen from everywhere, but hey....the first thing you learn as an author is that no idea is original. Somewhere, someone has had the exact same idea as you, because no matter how far apart you are, if you're writing in a genre like science fiction, you are going to be drawing from the same people. You will be drawin on Asimov, Heinlein, Verne and all of the science fiction authors who came before you.

However, your job is to take all those ideas that came before you, and combine it into your own new thing. And to me, that's what 40k did. It took science fiction, merged it with fantasy, and combined it with its own grimdark flavor to create its whole own unique thing. And to be honest, that's what got me into this whole thing. If it wasn't for the appeal that I can legitimately shout 'I'm crushing elves beneath tanks!', I sincerely doubt I would have gotten into 40k in the first place.

The background got me in, and the background keeps me in. So bring on more alien races! Give us more fluff! At least, of course, until the Imperium finally pulls itself back together and crushes all the filthy xenos beneath humanities iron boot.

Carlovonsexron wrote: Necros, and (worst of all) Orks are just fantasy rip-offs.

WARHAMMER 40k is warhammer in the future so they are not rip offs of the fantasy games they are those races.

no. the imperium is based in the sol solar system on earth and the fantasy universe has two moons..earth does not ahve two moons

origarmi chicken wrote:

Carlovonsexron wrote: Necros, and (worst of all) Orks are just fantasy rip-offs.

WARHAMMER 40k is warhammer in the future so they are not rip offs of the fantasy games they are those races.

that has never been the concept of 40k, it was once the concept that WFB was in the 40k universe and that sigmar was hinted to be a primarch, but that has been retconned years ago.

the two universes are now totally seperate

origarmi chicken wrote:

Carlovonsexron wrote: Necros, and (worst of all) Orks are just fantasy rip-offs.

WARHAMMER 40k is warhammer in the future so they are not rip offs of the fantasy games they are those races.

Been stated quite a few times by GW after the 'Sigmar was an Astartes' theories that the Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40k universes are completely seperate, even if they do share alot.

---

As for the OP, I would like to agree, but at the same time disagree.....somehow that doesn't even make sense to myself. I'd like to see more xenos races in 40k, especially unique ones that weren't taken from Warhammer Fantasy (Even if at the same time I'm a fan of the Orks and Eldar), so I can see some new things on the table, and crush them beneath my heels. Quite hypocritical coming from a SM player, but it gets quite boring playing Space Marines/Imperial Guard pretty much all the time, with a xenos race here and there to mix things up, so more xenos and thus more xenos players and fluff would be very welcome....perhaps I'd even switch over myself, field the terrifying creature bent on destruction....could be fun!

But at the same time, the races we have now are legacy, established, and quite well done, even if the inspiration is obvious, so I'd rather not see them scrapped. The orks are hilarious, and amusing to play against, where you really never know what's going to happen next, and the Eldar are psychic ninja elves in space to quote Melissa.

How are necrons anything like tomb kings other in the most basic and broad stereotype? they are undead with egyptian theme and that is about it...